DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 3 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 004 In this issue: Re: Voltage regulator corvairs????? Re: Voltage regulator Re: Power ground Re: Voltage regulator Re: 92 Corvette LT-1 Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Re: 92 Corvette LT-1 Re: Voltage regulator Re: Voltage regulator Re: Water Injection Thread Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Engine book Re: 92 Corvette LT-1 Re: fuel pumps Re: Voltage regulator GM V6 Re: GM V6 Re: corvairs????? Re: GM V6 Re: GM V6 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill the arcstarter" Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 17:20:40 PST Subject: Re: Voltage regulator It was written: >>Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak >>voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC >>type motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque. > >To claim that there is not enough inductance in the motor windings to >smooth out the highs and lows of the PWM voltage notches is living in >dreamland or a sign of having ingested too much egg-nog!! Actually you can (and will) instantaneously change the voltage across an inductor (motor winding) w/o an instantaneous change in the current. Nothing in physics says otherwise. I suppose the question is one of *what* damages the motor - rapid force oscillations (caused by rapid changes in current - something which is limited/prevented by the self-inductance of the windings) or some form of (?) dielectric breakdown across the windings caused by rapid voltage fluctuations... ? The big boys do use specially insulated magnet wire on the larger (1-10 hp) motors designed specifically for use with chopper drives. I'm not sure if a smaller motor (like a fuel pump) would care one way or the other. If you build such a chopper - be sure to include a flyback or snubber circuit to prevent your fet/transistor from going POOF due to the inductive kickback. :-) - -Bill (building a 10000 watt phase controlled SCR driver for my stick welder) Wanna know how to turn OFF an SCR? See my page: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/hvtank/hvtank.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Dodge1979@xxx.net (Roger Anderson) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:22:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: corvairs????? Anbody know of someone who might have adapted an efi system for a corvair engine? rog bucks, we just ran out of time... ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:27:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Voltage regulator Greg Hermann wrote: > > >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: > > > >> > >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM. > > > >Exactly! > >The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time! > > C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL > voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the > output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings! > > Regards, Greg > > > >=========================================================== > > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > > I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. > >=========================================================== DC motors designed for PWM control are of the "universal" variety, with laminated cores - capable of running on AC as well as DC - or permanent magnet field with laminated armatures. Yes, the inductance DOES tend to smooth out the peaks - but try running two identical motors at the same reduced "average" voltage - one with a pwm and one with a resistor. You know what you will find. Right, the PWM controlled motor will have significantly more torque, assuming the pwm controller is properly built and designed. Just try out an electronic controlled variable speed drill vs a resistance controlled variable speed drill. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:29:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Power ground Jim Davies wrote: > > On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote: > > > > Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and > > > 'powerground'? > > > TIA > > > Geoff > > I'll give it a crack. > > In a DC power system on a car, the negative(usually) terminal uses a > > "chassis ground" for power "return".This is your "power ground". It can > > have a voltage drop of up to .1 volt across it for accessory and > > charging loads, and up to one volt for starter loads. > > For signal circuits, such as sensors, sometimes the .1 volt drop across > > the frame ground could cause calibration errors, so a "signal ground" is > > provided. Sometimes the signal can even "float" above chassis ground, as > > through a protection diode with a, say, .6 volt forward voltage drop. > > Can't use chassis ground return for such a signal. > > Hope this helps understand it. > > > > So in other words, high amperage and low amperage devices should have > seperate ground paths to the battery?? Not necessarily: but devices that are VOLTAGE SENSITIVE, particularly at low voltages, should have their own ground circuit. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:48:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Voltage regulator - -----Original Message----- From: Bill the arcstarter Subject: Re: Voltage regulator Looks like the beginning for a good ignition set-up, cordin to Doc. Bruce snip > >-Bill >(building a 10000 watt phase controlled SCR driver for my stick welder) >Wanna know how to turn OFF an SCR? See my page: >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/hvtank/hvtank.html > > ------------------------------ From: ChvyRs92@xxx.com Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:57:10 EST Subject: Re: 92 Corvette LT-1 Jerry, Thanks. Let me know the name of the book when you find out. So you are from Ca. too? Jeff ------------------------------ From: "Bill the arcstarter" Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:35:52 PST Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >>Sounds like an A-833 trans. Ever had one apart? Mine needs >>synchros... > >Nope, just had the top cover off and peered inside, and can visually >see the bent forks. its that bad. but, it shifts, and hopefully its >repairable without too much effort. If the forks/syncro's are not >available, which they should be considering how many years this >tranny was available, I might go syncro-less. Though it is a truck, >not a race car. Any chance you just need forks? The forks can be replaced w/o pulling the trans apart! >I've found that to be with Chryslers in general. I've found ZERO >dodge trucks in the five or six junkyards that I frequent - and on a >trip to Raleigh in the beginning of the month I found a few and >scavanaged parts I needed - like the brake cables for the parking >brake. Yea, same here. I got my bellhousing from Binghamton, NY and I live in Ohio. The yards around here had ZERO and the best they could do was get one via locator for $250! Robbery! I ended up paying $60 for the one from NY. I consider myself lucky at that price. Apparently there are yards in the New England area with loads of moparts... - -Bill ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Bill the arcstarter" Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:41:39 PST Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 Peter Fenske wrote: >Trannys cont. > >Had a 833 apart when young. Did manage to get it back together > >The trick was to fab a dummy shaft so to fit the counter shaft into >the case. The dummy shaft needs to be a few thou less in dia >so it will slip out the back whilst you put in the shaft from the >front. Yea, thats what the guys down at the shop suggested. One guy had a piece of (!) broomhandle which he claimed was workable in a bind... >Mucho better than trying to use grease to put in the counter >shaft bearings. The darn things always fall out One guy used floorwax to retain the needles. To each his own. >Oh yes Mopar Perf has a special pilot bushing just for auto. >No machining needed. Oh? I was told the auto-only motors had no hole at all - ie - the pilot journal on the input shaft would hit the end of the crank where the hole should be. But I could be wrong on this. I haven't seen an auto-only crank. The one I pulled off of an auto had the proper pilot hole. A bit of de-rusting, a new pilot bushing and all was well. - -Bill ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:09:35 EST Subject: Re: 92 Corvette LT-1 Jeff Jeff JEFF The Chev - late model engine - swapping book is titled Chevrolet TPI & TBI Engine Swapping . I bought mine from Steve Smith at hit office in the city of Orange. I just recently loaned mine to a young friend who is thinking of swapping. I live in Los Alamitos Ca ( near Long Beach ) . My travels take me to many parts of LA. If you have any interest (and patience) , I may drop it off for youto see within a month , if you are in the L A area. Jerry ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:34:09 -0700 Subject: Re: Voltage regulator > >It's good to know shunt/ series motor theory. Though it's full effect is lost >on the original app discussed ( running a OEM fuel pump at a < or > voltage) >Most if not all OEM intank or external pumps are permanent magnet style. The >Holley Blue or Red pump may have field coils as well as some other aftermarket >pumps. > >As for running a pump at reduced voltage. The ~85 Merkur XR4Ti 2.3 Turbo ( >same engine as a SVO Mustang) uses a resistor wire simillar to a ignition >resistor. The ~ 86 Reanult Alliance ( ala American Motors) used a regular >ingition ballast resistor in series with the pump. > >I seem to remember some make of car using a resistor to reduce pump noise as >low throttle openings. Then bypassing the resistor near WOT to insure adequate >fuel flow. > >I think late model Chryslers use a variable (most likely PWM ) fuel pump on >their single line EFI systems. They have eliminated the return line on some >engines. > Ahem--well, a motor with a PM field has a rather constant level of excitation, so it seems pretty safe to say that it would act pretty much like a shunt wound motor--speed will vary with voltage, and torque will vary with current. Your examples prove the point that low voltage will not hurt them. Setting fuel pressure too high will, because it would require enough torque (current) to cause meltdown. Regards, Greg >Harold ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:54:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Voltage regulator >Greg Hermann wrote: >> >> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >> >> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM. >> > >> >Exactly! >> >The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time! >> >> C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL >> voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the >> output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings! >> >> Regards, Greg >> > >> >=========================================================== >> > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net >> > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 >> > I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. >> >=========================================================== >DC motors designed for PWM control are of the "universal" variety, with >laminated cores - capable of running on AC as well as DC - or permanent >magnet field with laminated armatures. Yes, the inductance DOES tend to >smooth out the peaks - but try running two identical motors at the same >reduced "average" voltage - one with a pwm and one with a resistor. You >know what you will find. Right, the PWM controlled motor will have >significantly more torque, assuming the pwm controller is properly built >and designed. Just try out an electronic controlled variable speed drill >vs a resistance controlled variable speed drill. OK--voltage relates to speed--current relates to torque. same as a shunt wound DC motor. The PWM reduces the (average) voltage, but does not limit the (average) current the way a resistor does. The picture is now coming into focus a bit clearer! I still say a smoothing filter on the motor lead side of the PWM switching device is very good for the motor. Likewise, a filter upstream of the PWM switching device is good for everything else in the neighborhood. (Like digital devices of one sort or another!) :-) A couple of loops of power and motor, and even control leads around (separate) ferrite cores is also not a bad idea, if you want to get serious about reducing the noise. Greg ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:24:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread >Without knowing the details of your vehicle, I can't be sure what would >fit. I was thinking along the lines of a standard front Its a mid-engined chassis from scratch engine behind drivers, in front of axle, using the FWD audi transaxle (for now). THe porsche G50-50 unit is identical in regards to axle height/distance from bellhousing, though weights 4 lbs more. >rear driveshaft, but that won't cause much trouble if you going with >four-wheel independant suspension. Vette IRS in the front, and custom in the back, IRS 4-link, much like the original GT-40 hopefully with better math associated with it :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid) 1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - - ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:27:55 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 >Any chance you just need forks? The forks can be replaced w/o pulling >the trans apart! Not sure, I haven't ripped it out yet. Hoping that's the case. >Yea, same here. I got my bellhousing from Binghamton, NY and I live in >Ohio. The yards around here had ZERO and the best they could do was get Really? I haven't found dodge anything up here. THough I now have a bellhousing that my transmission supposively will fit into. We'll find out for sure when the engine is yanked out. I will be EFI-ing this engine, and probably going one large turbo, or two small turbos. I've learned a lot from my radical V6 experimentation, and will be duplicating some of the lessons learned on this 383 B block. Just had it overbored .030, linebored, and its in great, great shape. >Apparently there are yards in the New England area with loads of >moparts... Really? I haven't found one yet. Everyone here in CT squish dodges faster than they can get them in !!!!! Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid) 1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - - ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:29:40 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 >Oh? I was told the auto-only motors had no hole at all - ie - the pilot >journal on the input shaft would hit the end of the crank where the hole >should be. This is true, nothing a 3/4 bit on a milling machine can't fix :) Just that centering it will be a challenge. I haven't found out how deep it needs to be, but maybe I can measure this off the length of the input shaft once I get the tranny out. I'd really like to shove in a 6-speed or a 5-speed. 4000 RPM at 70 MPH is a bit much. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid) 1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - - ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:29:40 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 >Oh? I was told the auto-only motors had no hole at all - ie - the pilot >journal on the input shaft would hit the end of the crank where the hole >should be. This is true, nothing a 3/4 bit on a milling machine can't fix :) Just that centering it will be a challenge. I haven't found out how deep it needs to be, but maybe I can measure this off the length of the input shaft once I get the tranny out. I'd really like to shove in a 6-speed or a 5-speed. 4000 RPM at 70 MPH is a bit much. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid) 1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - - ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:27:55 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318 >Any chance you just need forks? The forks can be replaced w/o pulling >the trans apart! Not sure, I haven't ripped it out yet. Hoping that's the case. >Yea, same here. I got my bellhousing from Binghamton, NY and I live in >Ohio. The yards around here had ZERO and the best they could do was get Really? I haven't found dodge anything up here. THough I now have a bellhousing that my transmission supposively will fit into. We'll find out for sure when the engine is yanked out. I will be EFI-ing this engine, and probably going one large turbo, or two small turbos. I've learned a lot from my radical V6 experimentation, and will be duplicating some of the lessons learned on this 383 B block. Just had it overbored .030, linebored, and its in great, great shape. >Apparently there are yards in the New England area with loads of >moparts... Really? I haven't found one yet. Everyone here in CT squish dodges faster than they can get them in !!!!! Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid) 1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - - ------------------------------ From: ChvyRs92@xxx.com Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:39:22 EST Subject: Engine book Jerry, I work in Pacoima Ca., but I don't want to make you waste your time driving to loan a book to a stranger. If you think the book is worth it I will order it from a catalogue so I can have a copy of it for my small, but growing library of car stuff. I am currently waiting for a couple of books I ordered from Summit Racing. One of them is from JTR (Jaguars That Run) I guess they specialize in that sort of thing too. I appreciate the offer though (and if I can't find one I might take you up on it after all). Jeff ------------------------------ From: "Mike Pilkenton" Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:42:30 -0800 Subject: Re: 92 Corvette LT-1 Jeff, is this you? Welcome to the efi list. Mike Pilkenton - -----Original Message----- From: ChvyRs92@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 3:24 PM Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1 >I have a 92 Camaro that had a v-6 in it, I recently purchased a 92 Corvette >LT-1 motor with both computers (the ECM, and the CCM ). My big problem is >figuring out how to wire the new motor. I know of a few aftermarket companies >that sell wiring harnesses, but they are pretty expensive and I don't know if >I really need them because I have the stock Corvette harness. I am also >curious if I need to disable the VATS or can I wire it up to the module >currently in my 92 Camaro? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > ------------------------------ From: "Mike Pilkenton" Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:52:24 -0800 Subject: Re: fuel pumps All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had. Where can I find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI. All the ones I have seen are for carb. engines. I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor and can be mounted outside the tank. Mike (3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion) ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:06:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Voltage regulator Following this thread with great interest! What is PWM?? At 08:27 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Greg Hermann wrote: >> >> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >> >> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM. ------------------------------ From: "Geoff Richards" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:48:31 +1100 Subject: GM V6 Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus) I believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the relationship between them and GM. Would someone be able to enlighten me to this and what other vehicles used this engine in the States so when reading different posts I can understand a little better :-) What is the GN type site referred to as read on this list? If this is what I am lookin' for could I have the address please Thanks Geoff ------------------------------ From: ARoss10661@xxx.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 01:00:06 EST Subject: Re: GM V6 In a message dated 99-01-03 00:46:41 EST, you write: << Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus) I believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the relationship between them and GM. Would someone be able to enlighten me to this and what other vehicles used this engine in the States so when reading different posts I can understand a little better :-) What is the GN type site referred to as read on this list? If this is what I am lookin' for could I have the address please Thanks Geoff >> Buick 3.8 liter engines have the same bolt patterns as Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs. Chevy's had a diffrent bolt pattern. GM in its infinite wisdom couldnt consolidate things enough to make life simple. The GN engines are turbocharged engines found in upscale Buick regals. Hope this tidbit of info helps Al ------------------------------ From: Aaron Willis Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 00:11:26 -0800 Subject: Re: corvairs????? Roger Anderson wrote: > Anbody know of someone who might have adapted an efi system for a > corvair engine? > rog > > bucks, we just ran out of time... Er, check some 'Vair pages on the web...I've seen one that was turbo'd, intercooled etc. If you want to go big money, try TWM - they have throttle bodies in the Weber IDA-3 pattern. Porsche Bosch componentry might also be available slightly cheaper(?) if you can find used. Good Luck! Aaron ------------------------------ From: Aaron Willis Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 00:53:04 -0800 Subject: Re: GM V6 Geoff Richards wrote: > Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus) I > believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the relationship > between them and GM. Geoff, GM is the parent company, and Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac, Oldsmobile, and GMC Truck are their divisions. Oh, and so is Saturn - almost forgot them. Mostly they just build the same basic cars in different styles for various target consumer groups, and have since before WWII. Back in the early '70s GM started allowing the different divisions to trade engines back and forth so that the Olds you got might have a Chevy V8 or a Buick V6 in it...or your Pontiac Trans Am might have a 403 Olds...it can get pretty confusing, but basically the Buick V6 has been around since the early '60s and is a child of the aluminum Buick 215 cum Rover 3.5 V8. It has been sold in Jeeps, passenger cars in probably all of GM's divisions, etc. The turbo versions are available in Buick Regals (of which a Grand National is one), primarily, with a few going into GMC Syclone/Typhoon trucklets (would that make them utelets to you? :-) and Anniversary Edition Trans Ams. There are probably others that got the turbo. Engine is still produced, I believe, and is available in supercharged form in the Pontiac Grand Prix. Now will you please explain Australia's muscle car era to me? Aaron ------------------------------ From: "soren" Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 01:08:37 -0800 Subject: Re: GM V6 ><< Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus) > I believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the > relationship between them and GM. > Would someone be able to enlighten me to this and what other > vehicles used this engine in the States so when reading different posts > I can understand a little better :-) > What is the GN type site referred to as read on this list? > If this is what I am lookin' for could I have the address please > Thanks > Geoff >> >Buick 3.8 liter engines have the same bolt patterns as Oldsmobiles and >Pontiacs. Chevy's had a diffrent bolt pattern. GM in its infinite wisdom >couldnt consolidate things enough to make life simple. The GN engines are >turbocharged engines found in upscale Buick regals. Hope this tidbit of info >helps >Al From my experience with Buick engines and minimal research on Holden vehicles, I believe that the Holden 3800 is fairly similar to the GM series II 3800. I have found that the naturally aspirated Holden 3800 actualy puts out about the same stock HP as the supercharged SII 3800. It is found in various modern (1996 and up) Buick vehicles including the Regal, Riviera and Park Avenue, as well as the Pontiac Grand Prix. The older (1980s) Buick Grand National had a 3800 but it was in a rear-wheel drive setup and had different electronics and was, of course, turbo'd. Soren Rounds ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #4 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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