DIY_EFI Digest            Tuesday, 5 January 1999      Volume 04 : Number 009

In this issue:

	RE: Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Re: Water Injection Thread
	Re: Nology)
	Re: Water Injection Thread
	RE: Injector Duty Monitor
	Old Thread - pulse width
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Re: fuel pumps
	Re: Water Injection Thread
	Re: Electromotive problems....
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Re: Water Injection Thread
	Re: Water Injection Thread
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Off Subject - Gas Grills
	1227748 PROM dumps
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
	Motronic Interface ?
	RE: Injector Duty Monitor

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the 
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni@xxx.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:17:57 -0700
Subject: RE: Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)

You maybe experiencing throttle blade icing. If the problem reoccurs remove 
the air filter and check for ice buildup. In the winter it's usually a good 
idea to run the stock air cleaner with the hot air pipe going to the 
exhaust manifold.

- ----------
From: 	Kurek, Larry[SMTP:lkurek@xxx.gov]
Sent: 	January 4, 1999 9:08 AM
To: 	'diy_efi@xxx.edu'
Subject: 	Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)

Guys:

I am having a slight problem with the 2.8 MPFI motor I put in my S10 in
place of the old carb motor with the hole in the side of the block :)

I was driving home last night and it started cuting out at anything between
off idle to about half throttle...kind of like it was running out of gas,
but it wasn't since I JUST filled up the tank. The fuel pump is new, and is
getting great pressure, so I don't think it is a fuel problem. 
However...the
motor seemed to fix itself and run great again. No SES light either. Once I
got home, I decided to check the obvious....coil connectors, wires, etc
etc...all seemed fine. However, after a quick test drive, I popped the hood
and it almost died out on me.. came back, and set an SES light...code 34,
low MAF reading. So, I backprobed the MAF connector and all was OK, I
checked for any loose connections and didn't see any either, so i reset the
ECM and it seemed OK. Well, on the drive to work this morning, same damn
thing. Again, a code 34. One of the causes for this code is a leak between
the MAF and the throttle body. I checked this as well, and the only thing
that MAY be a problem, is the temperature sensor bung I siliconed into the
elbow. The silicone looks to have pulled back just a bit and there may be a
SLIGHT opening into the elbow. Could this be enough to cause a problem? I
can't emphasize enough how small of a leak this may be. Are these MAF
sensors that sensitive? FWIW, I am also running an open element K&N filter,
and it has recently gotten quite cold here (Chicago area).

Sooo....any ideas?  How do I go about testing the MAF itself? Like I
mentioned above...the connector checks out fine with +B, ground, and +5v.

Does anyone have a spare MAF that they would be willing to part with? This
is a three wire MAF out of an 89 Camaro 2.8 V6. It isn't the hot wire
variety, but seems to use a thermistor instead?

Finally, I did note that the lights on the car dim on occasion for a few
seconds at a time. Could this be a bad alternator? Could this cause the
problems with the MAF? I'm stretching here guys...I don't want to get
stranded in sub-zero temperatures in the middle of nowhere...

Thanks!


Larry



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end

------------------------------

From: Christian Hack <christianh@xxx.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:49:50 +1000
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

For those who can't view the pwmeter.ps file i've put a GIF of the
schematic in /incoming for everyone

ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.gif

It's pretty big though. If that still causes probs let me know and I'll
try some other tricks. The main problem is that it will difficult to read the text
if I decrease the resolution too much. A decent GIF viewer should let you scale
and view it yourself.

Christian Hack
christianh@xxx.au
EDMI Pty Ltd
Ph : (07) 3888 3066
FAX : (07) 3888 3583

------------------------------

From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:47:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:05:28 -0500 "Gary Derian" <gderian@xxx.net>
writes:
>I think we agree about flywheel effects.  My point is that a heavy
flywheel
>will smooth out engine torque variation when the clutch is engaged but
can
>increase shock loads when starting out, a two edged sword.  My 
>preference is
>to have as light a flywheel as I can stand for driveability.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian@xxx.net>

An engine with more cylinders will have a smoother output torque.  V8s
tend to be smooth.  V12s are even smoother (though I have to admit that I
don't know this by experience - yet).

Ray

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------------------------------

From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:43:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Nology)

>Because an LCD panel does not consitute a legal number plate. If you get
>pulled over for anything, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to work out
>something funny is happening. I very much doubt an LCD panel showing the
>numbers would be convincing. Also the welding mask LCD panels turn
opaque 
>entirely. You would need to obtain an LCD panel that has individual
>sections in it to make up the differnet numbers and letters. 
>In Australia you are allowed to have clear plastic number plate covers,
>hence an LCD panel can be made to look like one of those.
>
>Cheers, Mos.

How clear does it have to be?  Could it be designed similar to a HUD, or
perhaps have diffraction grating etched in?  It would be close to
invisible to the naked eye.

Better yet, how about etching or molding a very small corner reflector
pattern into the side closest to the plate?  This would cause a glare to
be reflected back at any strong light source (flash).

Standard reflectors, such as you see on bicycles, next to the freeway,
and on the back of cars use a corner reflector pattern.  That's what the
triangular pyramid pattern is for.

Totally passive - how's that for elegant?


Ray Drouillard

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------------------------------

From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:16:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread

>AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
>Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as
good
>on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?

If that's the case, why does the Lambroghini use AWD?

AWD is useful when traction is a problem.  This could mean moderate
speeds with a slippery surface, or high speeds and lateral acceleration
on a sticky surface.  It's just another way to have a bigger performance
envelope to push.

The main advantage of a mid engine is that the mass is near the center of
rotation when the vehicle is going around a corner.  This makes it more
maneuverable.  It also makes it easier to spin out.  Performance comes
with a price :)

Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting the
engine in the front and the transmission in the back.

Another advantage of AWD is that all four wheels are pulling right from
the start.  With a 50/50 weight distribution, you will have twice the
ability to apply force to the pavement from a dead stop.  I know that
accelerating adds down force to the back wheels and removes it from the
front wheels, but AWD allows a forward force equal to the weight of the
car * the coefficient of friction, rather than some fraction of the
weight * the CF.

I know that dragsters are RWD, but that is a specialized application. 
Typically, the front wheels bear very little weight or lift right off the
ground.  Also, some of the acceleration force is used to add downward
force to the rear wheels.  Draw a vector diagram sometime if you have a
hard time imagining this :)

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------------------------------

From: Jemison Richard <JemisonR@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:25:39 -0500 
Subject: RE: Injector Duty Monitor

Thank you, thank you!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Christian Hack [SMTP:christianh@xxx.au]
> Sent:	Monday, January 04, 1999 8:50 PM
> To:	'diy_efi@xxx.edu'
> Subject:	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
> 
> For those who can't view the pwmeter.ps file i've put a GIF of the
> schematic in /incoming for everyone
> 
> ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.gif
> 
> It's pretty big though. If that still causes probs let me know and I'll
> try some other tricks. The main problem is that it will difficult to read
> the text
> if I decrease the resolution too much. A decent GIF viewer should let you
> scale
> and view it yourself.
> 
> Christian Hack
> christianh@xxx.au
> EDMI Pty Ltd
> Ph : (07) 3888 3066
> FAX : (07) 3888 3583
> 

------------------------------

From: "West, David" <djwest@xxx.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:07:51 +0930
Subject: Old Thread - pulse width

Hello all and happy new year.

To all the people that had input on the pulse width and broken turbo 
discussion - thanks.

I finally fixed the car - out of the old 4 cylinder and back into the 
turbo - wahooo

I found the problem to be a faulty hot wire flow meter.

Unfortunately, I tested the flow meter on the bench and it was within 
GM Spec at the start of the investigation. This is also why the ECCM 
didn't flag it as a problem.

When I re-visited the flow meter, after checking everything else under 
the sun,  I found the dynamic spec (using vacuum cleaner) to be within 
spec but on the upper limit.

I then sourced a new meter and it fixed the problem after clearing a 
shit load of fuel out of the exhaust system.

I suppose the moral of this story is:

'Just because a component is within spec doesn't mean that it works 
correctly.'

Bye for now

David West

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp@xxx.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:56:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christian Hack <christianh@xxx.au>
To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

I really must be losing it, I can't find it.  If someone sees it please send
it to me,
Bruce


>For those who can't view the pwmeter.ps file i've put a GIF of the
>schematic in /incoming for everyone
>
>ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.gif
>
>It's pretty big though. If that still causes probs let me know and I'll
>try some other tricks. The main problem is that it will difficult to read
the text
>if I decrease the resolution too much. A decent GIF viewer should let you
scale
>and view it yourself.
>
>Christian Hack
>christianh@xxx.au
>EDMI Pty Ltd
>Ph : (07) 3888 3066
>FAX : (07) 3888 3583
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:01:30 -0800
Subject: Re: fuel pumps

Thanks everyone for the leads.  Got some research to do at the parts
counter.

Mike
(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)

------------------------------

From: Aaron Willis <darkmonahue@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:09:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread

Raymond C Drouillard wrote:
> 
> >AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
> >Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as
> good
> >on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?
> 
> If that's the case, why does the Lambroghini use AWD?

For all the obvious reasons.  Last time I looked at them (little joke
ther) AWD was optional though.  There are plenty of people who prefer
the  more direct FEEL and pointability of RWD to the stability and
real-world traction of AWD.
   RWD has the potential for a bit more fun, but AWD is harder to lose
control of.  All depends on what you want to do with your car.

Just my two cents

Aaron
ICQ # 27386985

------------------------------

From: Fisystems@xxx.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:15:58 EST
Subject: Re: Electromotive problems....

In a message dated 12/30/98 8:23:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, CEIJR@xxx.com
writes:

<< I have encountered intermittent problems with an Electromotive TEC II in a
 couple of instances. Each time, the ECU has completely lost its place and
shut
 down because of spark wire interference with the pickup lead from the crank
 trigger. After being sure that installation gives maximum separation, the
only
 problems have been with "low resistance" wires. Best results have been with
 street rf suppression wires, where the ECU has been rock solid. It is
 predicted that those won't last as long as some others, but they have worked
 better than more expensive spiral wound, etc. 
 												Charlie Iliff >>
Electromotive has a new pickup to correct this problem. 
Ken

------------------------------

From: John Andrianakis <John.Andrian@xxx.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 05:34:18 +0200
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

Khoo Teck-Khoon wrote:
> 
> I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am
> interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the
> air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with
> electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that
> anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find
> such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to
> the import duties. Thank you.
> 
> Regards
> tkkhoo@xxx.com
> 

You can find an injector duty cycle monitor with schematic at
http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/pwmeasure.html

Cheers
John Andrianakis

------------------------------

From: Tom Sharpe <twsharpe@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:44:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread

More on preTurbo exhausts... If they are long for pressure leveling, then you
have more area to insulate, and more heat loss,  therefor, shorter is better
and HPC coat everything to keep the heat in.  Heat is as important as
pressure.

If you can provide the dimensions, Mr Ed in Chicago can build them.

regards  Tom

------------------------------

From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:45:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread

>
>Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
>are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting the
>engine in the front and the transmission in the back.
>
Hey--all the Corvette guys did was copy. Alfa's "Alfetta" FI cars of the
late '40's did that before there even WAS a Corvette--Not to mention the
early Pontiac Tempests, with their "rubber band" driveshafts!!

------------------------------

From: Chad Clendening <clendenc@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:00:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

What about making a SIMPLE PWM to DC converter for a DMM?  I figure this will
run about $2.00.  Maybee 3 if you have to go to a retail store.

Use a 10 volt regulator so the voltage is at a level most people can easily
divide in their heads.

Invert/ cleanup the PWM signal, using a bipolar setup as a common emitter, the
collector of that should have  ( near) 0 volts when the PWM is off, and near
10 volts when the PWM is on.  Connect this signal to the gates on both the
FET's. The drain leads of both fets are connected together in addition to a
filter resistor.  The source of the N channel is conntected to ground and the
source of the P is connected to +10.  The other lead of the filter resistor is
connected to a filtering capacitor ( this will also be the output of the
circuit) and the other side of the resistor is grounded.

The output of the circuit should be a 0 to 10 volt signal proportional to the
duty cycle x 10.  As long as the RC is correct ( big enough) , even a cheap
DMM should display the duty cycle OK

If this is too confusing I may be able to draw it in magic marker.

Chad

------------------------------

From: xxalexx@xxx.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:09:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

> I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
> electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
> anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
> such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
> the import duties. Thank you.
> 
If intersested in microprocessor, I wrote some intro to PIC C 
programs to do simple timing, will give 1us resolution, 65 ms range. 
with rs232 output.  search under PIC 101.  Place a 500K resistor
in series with input.
alex

------------------------------

From: xxalexx@xxx.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:37:39 +0000
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

The $99 rad shack scope probe could work.
Is made in Germany and sold under a lot of different names.
alex
> Another thought..............how about an old "surplus" oscilloscope hooked
> up to the injector circuit.  This would provide a pretty good
> visual/graphical representation of duty cycle and phasing?
> 
> Various companies also manufacture "plug-n-play" notebook oriented
> automotive oscilloscope modules.
> 

------------------------------

From: Tom Sharpe <twsharpe@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:53:18 -0600
Subject: Off Subject - Gas Grills

Would one of you Australians find me a source for one of those fabulous
Aus. gas grills with the brass burners, cast iron grills, and Jarrah
wood trolley carts? I want a three burner unit but there are no dealers
in Il. and none that I can find in the US that will do mail order.

please reply off list.  Thanks in advance   Tom Sharpe
twsharpe@xxx.com

------------------------------

From: Ludis Langens <ludis@xxx.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:24:58 -0800
Subject: 1227748 PROM dumps

A while ago Steve Ravet asked for PROM dumps for the 1227748 ECM for the
2.5 L4 engine.  I've uploaded 13 to the incoming directory.  Two are for
the 1228321 ECM which uses the same circuit board as the '7748.  The
'7748 was originally used with the "R"/"U" and "K" engines.  I didn't
keep track of what vehicle some of the PROMs came from - they could be
any three of these.

1227748
  Program code @ $C008 (aka $4008): 72 ($48)
    ABLT6730.S19  1987 2.0 "K" auto 2000ppm
    ACMA9517.S19  auto 4000ppm
    ACMB9524.S19  auto 2000ppm
    ACMC9528.S19  auto 4000ppm
    ACMF9538.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" auto 2000ppm
    ACMH9544.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" stick 2000ppm
    ADSJ2829.S19  auto 4000ppm

  Program code: 72 ($48) w/alterations (bug fix?)
    ALWM6770.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" auto 2000ppm
    ANAM1667.S19  auto 4000ppm
    ATBS3453.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" stick 2000ppm

  Program code: 112 ($70)
    ATXD7724.S19  1991 2.2 "G"

1228321
  Program code: 80 ($50)
    ARRN7099.S19  1989 2.0 "1" auto 4000ppm
    ARRP7103.S19  1989 2.0 "1" auto 4000ppm

It looks like I've got a good poker hand forming in the ACMs and ARRs. 
Here's how the transmission and VSS options are selected:

Program code 72:
 $C244 (aka $4244) bit %10000000 : 0 == auto, 1 == stick
 $C246 (aka $4246) bit %00100000 : 0 == 2000 ppm, 1 == 4000 ppm

Program code 80:
 $C009 (aka $4009) bit %00000001 : 0 == auto, 1 == stick
 $C009 (aka $4009) bit %00001000 : 0 == 2000 ppm, 1 == 4000 ppm

The 2000ppm digital VSS signal (from the instrument cluster) is input on
WHITE-23.  The 4000ppm AC VSS sensor inputs at BLACK-6.  BLACK-13
grounds the other side of the VSS sensor.  When using an ECM connected
VSS sensor, the ECM outputs a 4000 ppm digital VSS on WHITE-22 and a
2000 ppm digital VSS on WHITE-3.

BTW, the 2000 ppm mode is only used in J-bodies (Sunbird, etc.) and
P-bodies (Fiero).  This means that the ACMB PROM must be from a J-body
('cause it's not on the list for a Fiero.)

- -- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/

------------------------------

From: Orin Eman <orin@xxx.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:59:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

> What about making a SIMPLE PWM to DC converter for a DMM?  I figure this will
> run about $2.00.  Maybee 3 if you have to go to a retail store.

> Use a 10 volt regulator so the voltage is at a level most people can easily
> divide in their heads.

Forgo the 10V and you could use a 74HC14 - inverts and cleans up the
signal nicely.  Run it a little over 5V supply (it will take up to 7V
according to the Motorola data book) so you get a 0 to 5V output.
Use a resistor in series with the input, a few k should be OK.  Add
a 5V zener if you are paranoid.  A filter cap on the input isn't
a bad idea either.

Use an old 4000 series CMOS chip and you could run it off 10V!

Orin.

------------------------------

From: Orin Eman <orin@xxx.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:03:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

> > I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> > interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> > air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
> > electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
> > anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
> > such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
> > the import duties. Thank you.
> > 
> If intersested in microprocessor, I wrote some intro to PIC C 
> programs to do simple timing, will give 1us resolution, 65 ms range. 
> with rs232 output.  search under PIC 101.  Place a 500K resistor
> in series with input.


I have PIC16C84 code for a duty cycle meter - drives a 2 digit
multiplexed LED display.  I'll upload the code to the ftp site
when I get chance.

Orin.

------------------------------

From: Putter C <Cputter@xxx.za>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:35:10 +0200
Subject: Motronic Interface ?

Hi,

Has anybody got an idea which protocal is ussed byt the bosch motronic
1.5/2.5 ECUs?
The diagnostics port on my car looks nearly like the ALDL ports and not like
OBD-II.

What is the equivalent to to Vauxhaul Astra (UK) {OPEL Astra (RSA)} in the
rest of the
world, maybe somebody has go some info on the computer, but published it
under another
name ?

Cheers
Carlo

Happy holidays to ya all.

------------------------------

From: Putter C <Cputter@xxx.za>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:07:06 +0200 
Subject: RE: Injector Duty Monitor

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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- ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE388A.57950D30
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi

Just a correction, the dutycycle of the injectors does not realy mean
anything,
it is the open time that is normally of interest. The dutycycle however can
give
you an indication of feul-economy.

Cheers
Carlo Putter
South Africa

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Stuart Bunning [SMTP:stuart@xxx.au]
> Sent:	Monday, January 04, 1999 11:09 AM
> To:	diy_efi@xxx.edu
> Subject:	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
> 
> 
> I have not tried but would be interested in the results.
> 
> You can get digital multimeters that have a duty cycle input this should
> work and not cost much.
> Some multimeters have a dwell for  checking ignition dwell/points gap
> which
> may work for injectors????
> 
> If anyone has this type of multimeter one could they try it for us..
> 
> 
> At 11:38 PM 3/1/99 PST, you wrote:
> >I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> >interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> >air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
> >electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
> >anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
> >such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
> >the import duties. Thank you.
> >
> >Regards
> >tkkhoo@xxx.com
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> STUART BUNNING
> SALES ENGINEER
> KENELEC PTY LTD
> 
> 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
> MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
> FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
> EMAIL:  stuart@xxx.au
> WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/

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------------------------------

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