DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 7 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 015 In this issue: Re: difference between 16136965 and 1227747 Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter? Re: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design RE: Water Injection Thread Vats TempesTorque - Was Re: Water Injection Thread Re: Injector Duty Monitor Photo Radar - was Re: oops... (was Re: Nology) Re: Photo Radar Re: Vats Re: spiralmax Re: Water Injection Thread Re: Turbo header design Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter? Re: Vats See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ludis Langens Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:29:21 -0800 Subject: Re: difference between 16136965 and 1227747 steve ravet wrote: > IAT: 747 is unused. Isn't IAT needed to calculate air density? The intake air temperature has a very small affect on fuel delivery. Here's a table (from a different ECM) used to calculate the injector pulse width: 200 135 108 92 80 71 63 56 50 44 37 31 24 16 6 -8 -43 degC 165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,166,167,170,175 As you can see, there is almost no difference across normal temperatures. Only in that Illinois town a few nights ago would there be a difference. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:36:10 -0800 Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter? Hi Guys! NGK (USA) is located in Michigan, and the last phone number that I have for them is 1-810-489-0110. The sensor is a TL-7111-W1 UEGO sensor ($600), the controller is a TC-6000 ($400) and the wiring harness is TH-2009-W1 ($60). The controller comes in "A, B, C, D" versions, for analysis of A/F ratios of 10-30, 14-54, 15-50, and 10-15.5 respectively. The output voltage is roughly 1-5 volts, and is highly nonlinear. The sensor harness connector utilizes 7 connections. Basically, it is a 6-wire sensor (as made for Horiba and others) plus one other terminal for a compensation resistance. The repeatability and response are pretty good, but the life is short. The sensor does not like sudden contact with moisture! To be super accurate, you'll have to generate your own Voltage/Lambda transfer function, but for relative tuning purposes the supplied NGK graph works fine. All of this was collected 3 years ago, I'd love to hear from the list of any similar products that have emerged since then? Take Care; Walt. - -----Original Message----- From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter? >Hi Walter, > I keep hearing of this "magic" box and sensor but have not been able to >locate it for pricing,etc....Does this use the Horiba type(6 wire) or Honda >type(5 wire) sensor? Gotta URL????Was their transfer function >close?????thanks >-Carl Summers > >In a message dated 1/6/99 1:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, >wsherwin@xxx.com writes: > ><< Subj: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate? > Date: 1/6/99 1:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time > From: wsherwin@xxx.com (Walter Sherwin) > Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > The same UEGO sensor, with controller box, can be purchased directly from > NGK (USA). The only drawback is that the voltage output from the box is > nonlinear with respect to Lamda. So, you have to either develope your own > Lamda/V curve, or use their approximate tranform chart. Once "dialed in" > the response and accuracy are excellent, over quite a wide Lambda range. > > > >> ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:20:17 -0700 Subject: Re: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design > > >>Clarence, >> This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order, >>as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together. Commonly done in NA >>headers and OEM manifolds too. However, true 180 degree headers on a V8 >>typically take up a lot of space. >> The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is >>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are): >> >> 1 2 you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's >> 3 4 is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2. >> 5 6 >> 7 8 > >#1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1 and #4 >are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are grouped >together with NASCAR 180 degree headers? > >Jon > > I think he meant 360 degrees--- :-) Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:21:37 -0700 Subject: RE: Water Injection Thread >Lots and lots of conflicting messages about these cars being posted. > >AAron - maybe I kinda remember the 326 Pontiac engine being put into the 63 >tempest, but not the big V8. Yep they did do that. Greg ------------------------------ From: ChvyRs92@xxx.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:27:32 EST Subject: Vats I have a 92 Camaro with a VATS Passkey System. I am going to try to hook it up to a 92 corvette. Supposedly the passkey system would send a signal to the ECM of the Camaro to let it start, but in a 92 Vett it sends a signal to the CCM too. My question is can I wire the VATS system of the Camaro to the Vett? I know that all the keys put out different levels of resistance and the passkey system lets the ECM know it is O.K. to start, but is the signal put out by the passkey system to the ECM/CCM specific? ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:45:46 -0500 Subject: TempesTorque - Was Re: Water Injection Thread Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > Lots and lots of conflicting messages about these cars being posted. > > AAron - maybe I kinda remember the 326 Pontiac engine being put into the 63 > tempest, but not the big V8. When the 389 was put in the 64 Tempest > (contrary to GM front office policy on engine size in the 'compact' cars) > the GTO was born and that was one of the first muscle cars. > > Gwyn > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Aaron > > Willis > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:46 PM > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread > > > > > > Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > > > > > I don't remember it that way. > > > > > > Chevy had the rear engine Corvair. > > > Pontiac had the 'half of a 389 V8' 4 cyl with rear transaxle and the > > > driveshaft you saw. > > > Olds and Buick had the 215 aluminum V8 with conventional > > transmission and > > > rear end technology. > > > > > > > > > Pontiac also ofered the 389 V8 in the early Tempest at some point, as > > well as several versions of the slant four (4bbl carb etc). > > Not sure about 6 cyl. though. > > BTW I earlier wrote that swing axle cars were 61-61....should have > > read 61-63. > > > > Aaron > > > > ICQ #27386985 > > One of my sources says only the 4 cyl was available in the TEMPEST up to '63. If it had an 8 it was a LeMans. An 8 cyl LeMans was a 326. Period. The other reliable source seems to indicate a very few 215 V6 engines MAY have found their way into tempests in '61 and '62. No numbers to support this, however, but specs show a different final drive ratio for a V8 '61-'62 tempest - with transaxle. In '64 the Indy 4 was dropped in favour of the 215 cdi inline 6 (basically a chevy but 3.75 X 3.25" BXS) The 389 GTO version of the tempest came in 64. The 230 (3.87X3.35) OHC was a 1965 addition. The 4 BBL Sprint version came available in '67. In '68 the 3.8 (230 CID) was enlarged to 4.2 (250CID)(3.88X3.53) Buick and Olds ALL used conventional driveline. This information was researched from sources published by Canadian Automotive Trade magazine and the Standard Catalog of American Cars, 3rd edition, published by Krause Publications. This re-enforces the memories I have of working on these cars in the late sixties and early seventies when I maintained a few of them. Hope this can put some closure on this subject :} ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:55:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor Walter Sherwin wrote: > > Ummm....................here's more fuel for the duty cycle fire. DUTY > CYCLE, by definition, is the ratio of the ON time of an injector versus the > ULTIMATE time that it could be turned on per period. This will vary > according to the fueling "mode" that the software engineer or OEM has chosen > (ie: batch SSDF, batch SSSF, alternating TBI, single TBI, sequential, > phased sequential). > > If you are worried about dynamic injector performance (as you should be) > then you have to consider the magnitude of the ON time versus the ULTIMATE > time available for injection. This is why an oscilloscope is so invaluable > in determining injector "headroom", and why many duty meters are somewhat > meaningless, UNLESS you know the exact firing schedule of your system. > Beware, a software package may flip modes based on preset operating > criteria! > > Take Care; > Walt. > > DUTY CYCLE is calculated, by meters, as the percentage of time the circuit is "asserted" between event triggers. This means that the "period" is measured from injector opening to injector opening, or injector closing to injector closing. The percentage of this period occupied by the "asserted" mode, or injector energized, is read as DUTY CYCLE. As such, there is NO requirement to know the firing mode of the engine, or anything else. It WILL be accurate. The DUTY RATIO is the ratio of time on vs time off and is generally not used. This would be stated as 8:2, not 80%. Even with duty ratio, the effect is the same - conversion is direct as long as the 2 numbers (before and after colon) add up to 10. I fail to see how the injection mode can affect this. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:09:04 -0500 Subject: Photo Radar - was Re: oops... (was Re: Nology) Marc Piccioni wrote: > > We have photo radar here in Alberta, most of the time they park on the > right hand side of the road. All that is needed is to bend the right edge > of the plate 45 deg. this way the camera can't read the last digit. It > works. > /Marc > > ---------- > From: Tom Parker[SMTP:tparker@xxx.nz] > Sent: January 5, 1999 6:23 AM > To: Mos > Subject: Re: oops... (was Re: Nology) > > Mos wrote: > > >What about painting the reflective stuff with opaque paint? Still the same > >colour, just much less reflective. > > In NZ if they catch you covering your plate in any way, you are in big > trouble. If a copper was following you, he might notice that your plate > doesn't refelect like it should. At night, even dirty Plates light up from > 100's of metres away. > > My personal system would look a bit odd on most cars. I drive a mini which > has > a number plate hanging under the front bumper, with the bottom edge about 4 > inches above the ground. Mine is rather loosely attached and is bent in > such a > way that it hangs straight when you are stationary, but flies up under the > bumper enough to dissapear when you are moving. > > The only problem is if you see the camera and hit the brakes, then it > probably > reappears. > > Doesn't work on the rear plate though. > > -- > Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.nz > - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ > > Name: WINMAIL.DAT > Part 1.2 Type: MPEG Video (video/mpeg) > Encoding: x-uuencode Just "french" the plate - same effect, and legal. When Ontario had Photo Radar they could not catch transport (semi) trucks, because the rear plate of the cab was obscured, and the trailer plate was untraceable. The flash had to shoot forward to avoid blinding drivers (and tipping off oncoming traffic) The readability of the older plates was pretty poor as well (not all are reflective) so tickets were regularly issued to the wrong vehicle - including some that had been off the road for several years and the plates not turned in. Until transponders become standard (electronic toll roads like the Ontario #407) photo radar will continue to be rather arbitrary and failure prone - read that unfair. With electronic toll routes, radar will be unnecessary, as average speed over random distances can be calculated and the fine applied directly to your account. Driving with unpaid fines amounts to theft of services, and can result in criminal, not civil, liability when the fines excede $500. Big Brother WILL be watching. Now, the flip side. You pull onto the toll road. If you do not pass the next scanning point within, say, twice the expected time has passed, they automatically send the wrecker out to look for you. Safety is enhanced as you never have to accept "help" from a stranger. If someone is abducted from their broken down vehicle, the authorities know EXACTLY who has been on that stretch of road in the target time bracket. ------------------------------ From: Eric Schumacher Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:08:10 -0800 Subject: Re: Photo Radar 3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or ,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on axis. We use it in the dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. Lotsa Luck Eric 85 GTI with VR6 Power ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:27:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Vats Howday A vette is a different animal than a F body.. The ccm uses the 30/50 Hz signal and checks it. If all ok a signal is sent on the data buss to the ecm.. Only way to do this is to set the vats bit off in the PCM.. Good thing for 92 this is in a calpak not too hard to do take care:peter ------------------------------ From: "Alex Saerong" Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:40:57 +0700 Subject: Re: spiralmax please dont send me this junkmail anymore ..i'll appreciate that thank - ---------- > From: Bruce Plecan > To: diy_efi@xxx.com> > Cc: diy_efi@xxx.com> > Subject: Re: spiralmax > Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 1:09 AM > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Willis > To: Daniel Peper > Cc: diy_efi@xxx.edu ; > list > Date: Saturday, December 26, 1998 3:53 AM > Subject: Re: spiralmax > > > Just as efffective as putting magnets on your fuel liine, IMHO.. > Only reason they could work, is if the mixture was too lean, and > by adding this restriction, richened the AFR... > Bruce ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:50:23 EST Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread In a message dated 1/6/99 8:35:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, kenkelly@xxx.com writes: << Boy this thread is bouncing around. The corvair had a transaxle, but was a rear engined pancake 6. The Pontiac tempest Buick Special, and Olds f85 shared sheet metal, but not drive train. The Buick and F85 had a normal transmission/rear, while the tempest had a rear mounted transaxle with a flexible torque tube type connection from the engine. >> On an interesting note. there is a Lotus 7 replica possibly a Westfield that was running in Autocross with a Yamaha Vmax in front and a VW transaxle in the rear. Think about that for a minute. Sequential gear box running to a multiple ratio rear end with Reverse. You could trash the whole bellhousing just like the later Hewland's that used the VW case. Flip it to get the axles level, and the driveshaft low. Take out the extra gears for a hi-lo quickchange type effect. no problem with rotation, the ring and pinion are symmetrical. A little welding and machining, and you could have a nice compact little unit. Fred Harmon ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:38:42 EST Subject: Re: Turbo header design In a message dated 1/6/99 4:10:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, darkmonahue@xxx.com writes: <> Yes, and fabrication is a nightmare. fitting them into a car with any accesories is a real challenge unless you try to reverse the intake and exaust like some of the Indy V8's that Ford did years ago. Now think about the fun of trying to run TPI to that mess. << Almost sounds like an exotic foreign supercar (or a flat-crank V8, come to think of it) >> As I remember from a lot of engine research, flat cranks and 180 degree headers are great for max horsepower, at the expense of powerband width. I also recall there being a major problem with intake resonance and reversion with these systems. On a turbo it might not be a problem. but I would suspect that a good short free flowing pair if 4 into 1 headers with an appropriate size collector merging the pair into the turbo would be fine. Go look at some old Indy Offenhauser Turbo 4 cylinders, some of those were simply a series of exaust bends emerging from the heads and right into a log type manifold to the turbo. Very simple, and very tight packaging. Fred Harmon ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 04:03:52 EST Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter? In a message dated 1/6/99 8:46:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, wsherwin@xxx.com writes: << Hi Guys! NGK (USA) is located in Michigan, and the last phone number that I have for them is 1-810-489-0110. The sensor is a TL-7111-W1 UEGO sensor ($600), the controller is a TC-6000 ($400) and the wiring harness is TH-2009-W1 ($60). The controller comes in "A, B, C, D" versions, for analysis of A/F ratios of 10-30, 14-54, 15-50, and 10-15.5 respectively. The output voltage is roughly 1-5 volts, and is highly nonlinear. The sensor harness connector utilizes 7 connections. Basically, it is a 6-wire sensor (as made for Horiba and others) plus one other terminal for a compensation resistance. The repeatability and response are pretty good, but the life is short. The sensor does not like sudden contact with moisture! >> Just a question about usage then. How is it for a turbo App? Or would it have to be downstream of the turbo to keep the temp down? And, you mention that moisture is a problem. Does that mean that Water Injections would destroy it. On the same thought, has anyone tried water injection with a lambda sensor and got readings? I wonder what a basic carb type engine with a sensor in the exhaust would differ in readings with and without water. Any comments would be appriecated. Fred ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:03:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Vats OOPS Sorry guys to correct myself.. The CCM doesn't play with signals it measures the key pellet directly.. If the key code is correct the info is sent to the ecm :peter ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #15 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".