DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 8 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 020 In this issue: Re: Turbo header design Re: Delco 639 Re: What's this ECM? Re: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS Re: Duty Cycle Meter / A/F Ratio Meter Re: Injector Duty Monitor Re: Water Injection Thread & CorvEight RE: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale! Re: Injector Duty Monitor Re: Turbo header design Re: What's this ECM? Re: Digital contact breaker and timing advance eliminator Re: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS RE: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS Re: Prom for 90 dodge trunks Re: Water Injection Thread Re: Water Injection Thread RE: Photo Radar Re: What's this ECM? Uh-Oh, PICs RE: Turbo header design RE: Turbo header design RE: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design RE: Prom for 90 dodge trunks Re: Turbo header design Re: What's this ECM? Re: Uh-Oh, PICs Re: Water Injection Thread Re: What's this ECM? Re: Uh-Oh, PICs RE: Prom for 90 dodge trunks ECM connector cleaner Re: Water Injection Thread [now U joints] Re: ECM connector cleaner See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ludis Langens Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 02:56:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Turbo header design bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) wrote: > A flat crank V-8 is like two fours. Too > late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. I once worked through this mental exercise. The four cylinder hop gets turned into rotation back and fourth about the crank*. The frequency is the same as the power pulses. In other words, the imbalance turns into drive line pulses. This info is from memory, and my original analysis might have been wrong. Its too late to double check my thinking. * It might end up being about the center of mass, which would then mean a more complex motion. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Stuart Bunning Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:04:38 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Delco 639 Some of the new DELCO's use flash rom's soldered directly to the board. If this is the ECU I am thinking of it may have a space on the PCB where a connector could be soldered to about half the size of the conventional memcal socket. If you follow the traces on the pcb from this socket it should go directly to the flash rom. If this is the ECU I think it may be you can desolder the flash rom and solder in a socket/small adapter board and use a convertional eprom. One of the daewoo's did this i read a magazine article about. At 11:33 PM 6/1/99 +1100, you wrote: >Hi all > >Have any of you guys come accross a DELCO 16208639??? >they have no memcal......same size as a 165/808 >They come out od the 94 Holden Barina 1.4 Auto > >Justin > > Best Regards, STUART BUNNING SALES ENGINEER KENELEC PTY LTD 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132 AUSTRALIA PHONE: 61 3 9873 1022 FAX: 61 3 9873 0200 EMAIL: stuart@xxx.au WEB: http://www.kenelec.com.au/ ------------------------------ From: "Andrew K. Mattei" Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:02:08 -0500 Subject: Re: What's this ECM? Peter Fenske wrote: > > calpak ecm 16042431 stamped lists for 85-86 Fbody code F engine, MD8 > trans.. I appreciate all the responses! OK, here's some more info. Peter, I found that number you gave in Ludis' archives, and thought I might have been mistaken, but the bar code sticker on the metal cover has the number 16052541 on it :-/ The bar code sticker on the PCB inside has "255001205585161" OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. Reason I'm asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :) Thanks! - -Andrew ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:59:17 EST Subject: Re: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS In a message dated 1/8/99 3:17:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, doug@xxx.com writes: > Has anyone used / tried a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor? I have a '95 Chevy 1/2 > ton truck with a small blower making 9 lbs of boost, and I'm thinking of > trying a 2 BAR map sensor from Accel. I assume all I'll have to do is > adjust my fuel settings. I'm also assuming the stock computer won't throw > a fit with it. There are quite a number of activities tied to the MAP sensor reading. Switching to a 2 bar sensor allows you to monitor twice the pressure range with the same same5 volts.. I suspect there will be some ide problems you will need to work out, as the volt reading from the MAP sensor will be lower.. Idle will need some work, but athers have probably done this.. Which ECM & chip are you currently using? How ar you providing enrichment under boost right now? Mike V ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:23:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Duty Cycle Meter / A/F Ratio Meter - -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: EFI list Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:25 AM Subject: Duty Cycle Meter / A/F Ratio Meter To really be useful the sensor needs to be a wide ratio, one. It also, needs temperature compensation, items not found in a $60 unit. While better than nothing, the accuracy and repeatability of these items suffers. If you read bach in the archives, search EGOR, and there is lots of info about sensors Bruce >Haven't been followignthis thread too closely, so I'm not sure if >you've discussed commercially available units yet. I found this in the >Racer Wholesale catalog ('97, p. 87), looking for the Air/Fuel Meter >mentioned with the snake oil / polish discussion. >High Resolution O2 Sensor....AUT-9900 $57.95 Aaron > >ICQ # 27386985 > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:24:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor >> >>I disagree, Walt-- duty cycle is time on per event spacing, not time on per >>max time allowed by the program. It is only semantics, but time on per >>event spacing is what any normal meter will read, plus it is the definition >>of duty cycle which will relate directly to fuel used per unit time and >>thus directly to horsepower. >> >>Greg >> >> >I guess it all boils down to "For What Purpose" a person wants to know the >duty cycle of the injector. If it is for the purpose of estimating fuel >per unit time, or horsepower, then a conventional duty meter will work fine. >If it is for the purpose of examining the remaining injector "headroom" of >your particular control system (ie: for injector sizing and tailbiting >issues), then you would need to look at things as previously outlined. >Yes/No? > >Walt. Sure--Like I said above--only semantics. - --Greg ------------------------------ From: Barry Tisdale Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:35:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread & CorvEight Fiberfab sold a fiberglass body & chassis kit called "Valkyrie" that used '65 Corvair drivetrain & mounted a SB Chev @xxx. Drivetrain came out to be somewhat long, crank pulley of the V8 was @xxx. Weight of mine was 1880 lbs, HP around 327 - best performer I've *ever* driven! Barry At 10:55 PM 1/7/99 -0800, Peter Fenske wrote: > > >Hi Shannen and all > >What happened with the 350 swap into the corvair as well as >the "kelmark" is they turned the transaxle upside down backwards >and the engine kept you company in the back seat >Not like the Porche V8 swaps UGG > >:peter > > > ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:31:23 -0600 Subject: RE: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale! The torque converter (or fluid coupling) is inside the transmission. This is probably the roto-hydramatic. The flywheel looks like a manual tans type and like you said it connects to the trans with what looks like a clutch disk, Full sized cars used this trans also up to 1964. I have two from a 1964 Pontiac Catalina 389 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jake Sternberg [SMTP:chickens@xxx.edu] > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:08 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale! > > > I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8 > from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc. > > This is the aluminum V8 everyone has been talking about. It's > so light you can pick up the block with one hand, and both > heads with the other. The intake manifold is a one-finger > item. > > Comes disassembled with pistons, rods, nuts, bolts, oil pump, > pickup screen, oil pan, heads, valve covers, valves, nuts, > bolts, front cover, rear cover, crank, camshaft, etc.. > exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, flywheel, generator, > EVERYTHING. (no starter but i think a plain buick V6 will fit) > > Includes transmission! This is a weird item: automatic trans > with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus > a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a > disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of > a friction material. It bolts onto the flywheel (included with > the engine) and drives the transmission directly. This is all > that i know about the transmission. > > This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup > will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner. > This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that > mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake. > > My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping. > I'm in austin, texas.. > > -jake > chickens@xxx.edu > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:31:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor >>From Waterloo Ontario - yes it would read as you state - but no problem. >>What we are trying to do is make sure the injector is not "locked on" or >>run in fire-hose mode. The "experts" say 80% is maximum, and in the >>scenario you propose, anything approaching 80% would be impossible. > > > > >Sounds to me like your reason for wanting to monitor "Duty Cycle" is to >primarily assess the remaining control headroom of your system and its >injectors? > >It is true that you should size your injectors so as to obtain an 80% >maximum control duty cycle (you can run over 80%, but you have to know your >specific electromechanical dynamic injector constraints). > >But, what do you want 80% of?..................In the earlier example, you >would want 80% of the time available for actual injection, or 80% of the >"Ultimate" time. > >Once you use up 100% of the ultimate time, you will be out of control and >out of additional injection time, even though your dash mounted duty >"meter" would have you believe that you are at a super conservative 33% >duty cycle! > >"Duty Meters" are great for certain tasks, I just think that they cannot be >universally applied to all injection control systems without an >understanding of what is to be measured and what is actually being measured. > > > >Walt. Which could be paraphresed for most tools. Things like oxy-acet torches and 1" drive breaker bars come to mind first for some strange reason! :-) Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:42:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Turbo header design >bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) wrote: >> A flat crank V-8 is like two fours. Too >> late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. > > >* It might end up being about the center of mass, which would then mean >a more complex motion. Yep, I think rotation would be about the center of mass of the engine. Thanks, Ludis--you saved me a cup of coffee this AM that way!! :-) Regards, Greg > >-- >Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com >Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:54:03 -0500 Subject: Re: What's this ECM? - -----Original Message----- From: Andrew K. Mattei To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 8:28 AM Subject: Re: What's this ECM? 1985, 5.0L. vin "F" Bruce > >OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. Reason I'm >asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a >TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref >it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :) >-Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:05:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Digital contact breaker and timing advance eliminator - -----Original Message----- From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:48 AM Subject: Digital contact breaker and timing advance eliminator >The requirements are relatively simple: >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up >arranged to fire every 60 degrees. Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition. >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism. >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16 >sites. Commercially MSD, Holley make said units, kits are available from Australia, for a DIY. Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just use the ignition part of that. If you want to do a total DIY visit 332EFI, you can get there off the diy_efi home page. >4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few >degrees of detonation induced retard. If you search the archives lots of material on this. Be sure to include ION in your search. Bruce >5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact >breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit >(already fitted in my car). > >Your replies will be highly appreciated > >Regards, > >Aris > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:50 -0500 Subject: Re: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS - -----Original Message----- From: Doug Bazarnic To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:32 AM Subject: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS I have a '95 Chevy 1/2 >ton truck with a small blower making 9 lbs of boost, and I'm thinking of >trying a 2 BAR map sensor from Accel. I assume all I'll have to do is >adjust my fuel settings. I'm also assuming the stock computer won't throw >a fit with it. The MAP is not a Plug+Play, change item. It's signal is also used for figuring out barometric pressure. So to change it means finding and changing all the barometric calculations. The Accel unit is probably sold for use with a system they sell, that uses a 2 bar calibration. I've only heard of two guys change a ecm from one MAP sensor to another range of MAP, both times was way over 6 months of work. Yours being a PCM, I'm assuming it's an auto tranny. Means even more work. Clever use of a Haltech E6GM ecm might be an option. Bruce > >Any info would be greatly appreciated. > > >Thanks > >Doug Bazarnic > ------------------------------ From: Mike Pitts Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:27:11 -0500 Subject: RE: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS <> You can't just change the MAP sensor, it will throw *everything* off. Almost every table in the PCM is indexed directly or indirectly from MAP. Including some of the transmission tables (if you have an automatic). Try it, and you'll immediately see what I mean. :) IMO, the correct way to switch to a 2 or 3 bar MAP is to write a code patch that scales the new MAP's readings back into the 1 bar range for all of the existing tables and code. But store the actual boost reading in RAM for your own use, if you want to increase injector DC or reduce timing. This is what I did for my 93 CPI engine. It ain't easy though. I spent every evening and every weekend for at least 3 months straight reverse engineering my PCM code before I had enough insight to make the code patch. I would guess somewhere in the range of 300-500 hours so far. Unless you are prepared to write code patches for your PCM, you're better off just sticking with the 1 bar MAP and using the whatever you currently have to add the additional fuel for boost. - -Mike ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:29:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Prom for 90 dodge trunks > > There are no eproms available for Dodge vehicles... you have to buy a > complete computer assy with the perf cals in it. (You can get them from the > dodge dealer... Mopar Performance is the only company I know of that makes > them...) > Dodge (all chrysler) PCM's are potted and sealed... you'd destroy it trying > to get the epoxy off the circuit board to get at the prom to unsolder it. > > Later, > Dave epoxy can be decomposed using strong UV light or heat takes a little time but it can be removed Clive > > > At 11:07 PM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote: > >r there any performance prom for a > >dodge half size truck? > > > >not those tuner box that plug in on top of the ecm!! > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. > =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Martin Scarr Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:32:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and > rear mounted. I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation? > Anyone? > > Shannen A 350 won't fit in the rear of a Corvair, it's too long. A friend just put a 4.3 in the rear, and it was a tight fit. Yes, he built a reverse rotation engine for it. There were quite a few mid-engine Corvairs built using either the Crown kit or the Kelmark kit. The Crown used the 66-69 transaxle (with Saginaw internals) in the stock location, and used an adapter and modified input shaft to mate the SBC to the front of the transaxle. The Kelmark kit turned the transaxle end for end, and mated to the SBC. This drives the ring gear on the 'coast' side, and it doesn't last. Check out http://magi.com/~gaube/corvair/norris01.html for a *very* nice buildup of a Crown car. Martin Scarr '65 Crown Corvair ------------------------------ From: Martin Scarr Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:37:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote: > Not as common as they used to be - many are now geared for reverse > rotation. I believe the same trick was used on the corveight - flip the > ring and pinion in the transaxle to reverse the rotation - like on a > VW/porche You cannot flip the r/p on a Corvair transaxle, unfortunately. ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:31:03 -0500 Subject: RE: Photo Radar Ooooo. I'd bite! Rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Clarence Wood [SMTP:clarencewood@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 4:38 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Photo Radar > > Eric, > Is it possible for you to get some of this stuff and sell it to the > members of the list? I'd bet that if an individual ordered it they would > have to buy a lot more than they needed. > > At 10:08 PM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote: > >3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or > >,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing > >angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on axis. We use it in the > >dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. > >Lotsa Luck Eric > >85 GTI with VR6 Power > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:31:33 -0800 Subject: Re: What's this ECM? Hi Andrew Just burn a 2732 with the 85 vette bin. I got one here somewheres from my 85 vette if you really need it hollar. Nothin fancy and works in camaro.. Ps I went to the 165 ecm. You just need the two maf relays to upgrade. Well you gotta switch about 10 wires on the ecm plug :peter ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 11:35:24 -0500 Subject: Uh-Oh, PICs >From: "Georg Lerm" >Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:36:27 GMT-2 >Subject: Re: Duty Cycle Monitor Group Buy > >Just to set the record straight. There seems a bit of confusion >about. If not , I apologize in advance. > >The statement made by Steven Ciciora is not correct. The list seems >to think that the design I have posted uses a PIC. This is not true. >The microcontroller device I have used is an Atmel AT89C2051 micro >It uses the 8051-Architecture, for those are familiar with it. >Take a look at http://www.atmel.com/atmel/acrobat/doc0368.pdf >This give you an idea what the chip is all about. > >Later... >Georg Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a 'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller? (You can get technical, I can take it!) Steve C. wrote: >I've believed that there has been a need for a duty cycle monitor for >some time, and have been looking for some time to build one, but with no >luck. It seems like one or two people out there have plans. I would be >willing to volunteer to put together a kit (design PCB, order parts, >etc) for such a beast, if someone had some working source code. I can >program PICs, too. What _I_ would like to see on a display is on time >(in ms), off time, frequency (and/or RPM), and duty cycle (in %). All >on an LCD Display. > >If anyone has some PIC source code, please let me know. > Wow, Steve likes to go all out. This would be an ideal setup! If anyone does this, put me down for one of these. BobR. - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:30:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Turbo header design I have a flat crank 4. Is that like two 2's!????? I don't think I'm ready to buy into this analogy. What the 180 degree cranks will do is make your life (from the standpoint of EFI and electronic ignition) much simpler as you can cut the number of components in half (even the injectors if you want to share ports with TPI) and make more horsepower at the expense of a little more vibration. I can't speak for v8 characteristics as I've never had one but a 4 cyl 180 degree motorcycle will idle smoothly and create a boat load of torque for it's size! Rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Ludis Langens [SMTP:ludis@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 5:57 AM > To: Diy_efi > Subject: Re: Turbo header design > > bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) wrote: > > A flat crank V-8 is like two fours. Too > > late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. > > I once worked through this mental exercise. The four cylinder hop gets > turned into rotation back and fourth about the crank*. The frequency is > the same as the power pulses. In other words, the imbalance turns into > drive line pulses. This info is from memory, and my original analysis > might have been wrong. Its too late to double check my thinking. > > * It might end up being about the center of mass, which would then mean > a more complex motion. > > -- > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:34:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Turbo header design I don't know the in's and out's of this 180 degree situation but as a frame of reference, the Saturns use a 180 degree crank, 2 coils, fire 2 injectors at a time, etc. Runs dead smooth. Rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Clarence L.Snyder [SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:56 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Turbo header design > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > > > > > > Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank > vibration > > >(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a > Chevy > > >V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8 > > >fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4 > turns of > > >the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused...... > > > > Secondary vibration, due to the fact that piston accelerations are > > different at the top and bottom of the stroke due to con rod angularity. > A > > four cylinder has an up and down shafing force at twice crank speed > (which > > is sometimes countered fairly well with two "balance shafts" counter > > rotating at twice crank speed.) A flat crank V-8 is like two fours. Too > > late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. > > The well known "big four buzz" common to modified Ford "B"s, Vauxhaul > 2300s, and ford 2300s, as well as the Vegas (ouch!!) My '28 Chevy > National and Vauxhaul HC 2300 twin-carb both buzzed pretty good. Hard to > immagine two of them out of phase!! ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:37:16 -0500 Subject: RE: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design I've got a car and a bike (both 4 cyl) with 180 degree cranks. If you're interested. rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 12:38 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design > > diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > > > > > > > >Clarence, > > > This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing > order, > > >as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together. Commonly done in NA > > >headers and OEM manifolds too. However, true 180 degree headers on a > V8 > > >typically take up a lot of space. > > > The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which > is > > >1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are): > > > > > > 1 2 you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, > #8's > > > 3 4 is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2. > > > 5 6 > > > 7 8 > > > > #1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1 > and #4 > > are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are > grouped > > together with NASCAR 180 degree headers? > > > > Jon > > > > > Suppose it would make things easier to include "cam" or "crank". #6 > is 180 cam degrees from #1. Means that #8 reaches TDC at 630 crank > degrees. > > Anyone willing to answer some "flat" crank questions off list? > Shannen ------------------------------ From: Mike Pitts Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:42:52 -0500 Subject: RE: Prom for 90 dodge trunks >>epoxy can be decomposed using strong UV light or heat >>takes a little time but it can be removed *This* is the kind of info that makes mailing lists such a great treasure. Thank you! I would guess an eprom eraser would supply sufficiently strong UV? BTW: How much time is "a little time"? Thanks! - -Mike ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:54:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Turbo header design Ultimately, it is best to merge all the exhaust tubes into a single muffler (even if two pipes lead into it and out of it) to raise the frequency of the sound (the same effect as a balance tube). The high frequency sounds smoother and also is easier to silence, meaning less backpressure for a given noise level. I think it is typical for Hi-Po foreign V-8's to have two into one cast iron manifolds with two downpipes that in turn merge into a single cat for each side. Alternately, having four smaller cats, one at the first merge, gets the cats closer to the engine. Today's cars have their exhaust systems designed first for quick cat lightoff, then for performance or cost. A standard crank V-8 has a rotating couple (front pushes up while the rear pushes down) of constant magnitude that is in the same direction as the crank rotation. This is easily counteracted by weights at the front and rear of the crank. Ever notice that the crank weights on the ends are not opposite the journals? The offset angle is 18 degrees. These weights cancel the rotating couple imbalance. A flat crank is like 2 4cyls and each bank, as Greg indicated, has a vertical shake at twice engine speed. Placing two banks at 90 deg, each with a vertical shake, results in a rotating force, but not a couple, at twice the engine rpm. Obviously, every manufacturer but Ferrari, whose largest V-8 is 3.5 liters, has chosen the 90 deg crank route for their V-8's. It is my opinion that the tri-Y setup on a 90 deg crank V-8 gives up very little if any to a true 180 deg exhaust for street engines. Gary Derian > >>A reasonably close approximation to true 180 deg. headers can be made with >>the old tri-Y approach. As Aaron wrote, true 180 would require merging >1-6, >>8-5, 4-7, 3-2 which is difficult to make. Merging 1-5, 3-7, 4-6, 2-8 >>enables cylinder pairs to share an exhaust pipe without interfering and is >>relatively easy to build. This is common in high output European and >>Japanese V-8 engines. > >Do they have 4 exhausts exit the car? Or are there collectors further >downstream to make it duals or a single? ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:01:41 -0500 Subject: Re: What's this ECM? diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > Peter Fenske wrote: > > > > calpak ecm 16042431 stamped lists for 85-86 Fbody code F engine, MD8 > > trans.. > > I appreciate all the responses! OK, here's some more info. Peter, I > found that number you gave in Ludis' archives, and thought I might have > been mistaken, but the bar code sticker on the metal cover has the > number 16052541 on it :-/ The bar code sticker on the PCB inside has > "255001205585161" > > OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. Yup. Your eprom's from a camaro. 1985, 305HO, MFI, 4spd auto w/air. The ECM will sometimes have several numbers on it. The one we used in the dealership was the "service number", and if it wasn't on there we usually couldn't cross the other numbers. The 'vette .bins which fit the camaro ecm in 85. The 'vettes had 350s. Shannen Reason I'm > asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a > TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref > it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :) > > Thanks! > > -Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Andrew K. Mattei" Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:06:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Uh-Oh, PICs rauscher@xxx.com wrote: > Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a > 'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface > Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller? > (You can get technical, I can take it!) Just about everything you want to know is at http://www.microchip.com - a PIC is a RISC based microcontroller. Gotta get me some of that... ;) Looks like a lot of fun! Available with EEPROM or OTP, in lots of flavors. Digikey sells 'em pretty cheap too... - -Andrew ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:10:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > I apologise to the list and the writer for this, but I'm not recieving > > any source info through my new isp, and without a siggy I can't tell > > who is sending what. Hopefully the problem will be solved soon. > > > > That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and > > rear mounted. I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation? > > Anyone? > > > > Shannen > Actually, the stories I heard were in my home town, and the corvair parked up the street from my girlfriend's house. Reason I asked is cause we called this guy "sparky" as in "hey, dude spark up another one". Always thought he was lacking a certain something (brain cells??) needed to make the swap. But I never looked at the car to confirm the stories. > The infamous "Corveight" = used the Corvette 327, from what I remember. > Saw one at one of the Ontario shows this summer - think it was Waterdown > - possibly Barrie. About the only 'vair that could beat Don Yenko's 240 > stinger. That sounds like a fun car. Shannen ------------------------------ From: "Andrew K. Mattei" Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:19:22 -0500 Subject: Re: What's this ECM? Shannen Durphey wrote: > Yup. Your eprom's from a camaro. 1985, 305HO, MFI, 4spd auto w/air. > The ECM will sometimes have several numbers on it. The one we used in > the dealership was the "service number", and if it wasn't on there we > usually couldn't cross the other numbers. The 'vette .bins which fit > the camaro ecm in 85. The 'vettes had 350s. > Shannen Thanks for the verification, ya'll. Peter, I might be chatting with you later about that '85 'vette .bin - PS - my company is moving in three weeks, and there are bins and piles of electronic junk to be scrapped. Why are all the EE's scavenging around like hungry vultures? - -Andrew (Love that pile marked "Free stuff") ;) ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:27:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Uh-Oh, PICs > Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a > 'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface > Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller? > (You can get technical, I can take it!) In PCs, PIC stands for programmable interrupt controller. In this mailing list, PIC means a line of microcontrollers designed by Microchip (www.microchip.com). Some have A/D built in, some have PWM built in, etc. All are cheap and pretty easy to use. > Wow, Steve likes to go all out. This would be an ideal setup! If anyone > does this, put me down for one of these. I would also buy one of these. Georg's design is nice as it has an LCD, plus is opto-isolated from the injector signal. I'd personally prefer a PIC based design, but as long as someone else is doing the programming.... :-) - --steve > > BobR. > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:32:32 -0800 Subject: RE: Prom for 90 dodge trunks With the dodge PCM thing somewhere is the exact location of the rom on the board. Have seen it posted somewhere. This is the location where the expoxy must be removed. Clip the prom leads and solder in a zif socket.. Also some toxic chemicals will remove expoxy. :peter ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:39:16 -0600 Subject: ECM connector cleaner After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what caused the problem. Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves! Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or ECCS, connectors. For some reason they become corroded and for some reason this causes a stumble. He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors and spray them with WD40. Well, gasp! Not trusting WD40 to the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:> ZM000000M Now, what can I do to solve this problem??? Is there some chemical that I can use that will stop the corrosion? I thought about removing the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked into place by set screws. This is a lot of work. Surely there must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job! ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:44:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread [now U joints] diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > > > For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4 > > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize. > > The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw. And don't tell me I can't cut a > > straight line with a hacksaw. > > Shannen > For a mere $19.95 plus shipping+handling I ship you the manual. ; ) It's a skill older than lead bodyfiller. Shannen > Okay, you can't cut a straight line with a hacksaw. I tried > this for my mid-engined car - needed a CV on each end, > mating 87 corvette IRS hubs to an Audi FWD transmission, > slopped in the back of the vehicle. The first attempt was > what you suggested - cutting both the GM and the Audi axles, > inserting a 1/4" circular plate, and welding. After two > attempts, I realized I couldn't weld them perfectly straight > using the wooden jig I made, so I asked a friend to > fabricate them from scratch. Less balancing issues, one > piece, no worries about welds giving out (I don't weld as > good as most), etc. > > A competent machine shop can spline both sides. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab > 2000 Buick GTP (V6 twin turbo) ------------------------------ From: Wen Yen Chan Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:23:46 -0500 Subject: Re: ECM connector cleaner Hello, Poly Phenyl Ether seems to work well. Stabilant 22A works even better but is bloody expensive. I prefer Stabilant 22A as it is a non conductive liquid which becomes conductive when there is arcing between the contacts. I use Stabilant 22A at work on connectors which are worn out but a real pain to replace (200 pin connectors between rows of surface mount parts for example). Wen On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote: > After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what caused the problem. Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves! > Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or ECCS, connectors. For some reason they become corroded and for some reason this causes a stumble. He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors and spray them with WD40. Well, gasp! Not trusting WD40 to the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:> ZM000000M > Now, what can I do to solve this problem??? Is there some chemical that I can use that will stop the corrosion? I thought about removing the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked into place by set screws. This is a lot of work. Surely there must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job! > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #20 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".