DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 13 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 030 In this issue: Re: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech) SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) ca18det Re: Photo Radar RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) Re: air/fuel gauge RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) EFI system plans. RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) RE: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out) Searchable archives question Re: EFI system plans. Re: Searchable archives question Re: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out) Re: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) RE: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out) Factory Instrument Panels Searchable archives question Re: Factory Instrument Panels Re: Factory Instrument Panels EFI reference books - updated information More book info..... RE: Factory Instrument Panels Re: Factory Instrument Panels See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:06:52 EST Subject: Re: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech) In a message dated 1/11/99 8:31:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd@xxx.net writes: << If memory serves, a pitch lap and rouge are what is used on glass for final figuring and polishing of optical lenses and mirrors. Also know a fellow who has been known to use toothpaste to lap gears from a motorcycle tranny to each other. Thanks!! Regards, Greg >> Colin Chapman ( founder of Lotus cars) was rumored to have used valve lapping compound to lap a pair of gears from different cars together to get a ratio not availible. Of course, he only had about 40 HP running through them when they were done, and it was for short term usage, so anything can happen. Toothpaste is simply Diatomacious earth with clorine or ammonia as I recall. We used Simichrome years ago for similar uses. You can buy powdered jewelers rouge and other grits for mixing your own suspensions. Might try a Gun shop if you can't find it locally. They use it for tumbling brass shell cases with crushed walnut shells. Back in my youth (70's) We used to use toothpaste to lap the bearing races on our bicycles and skate board wheels. (old loose ball days) and then add new bearings after the races had been polished. If you ever need a flat mirror type finish on steel, use a flat plate, and after lapping on the plate, put a piece of typing paper on it and lay some lines of buffing compund on it like you were using a crayon. Lap and then finish with a final lap on the blank paper. Used to make absolutely perfect faces on rivet setting dies that wouldn't mark the paint in use that away. Fred ------------------------------ From: "Roland Johansson" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:01:36 +0100 Subject: SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try add a old computer fan and test again. Roland Johansson Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82 > Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long overloading > a driver would take. If I wanted to see if something was going to > work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it take to > see if they fail?. > I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 cyl TPI ecm > Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted. > I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that would be one > clue. > Cheers > Bruce ------------------------------ From: "jimmy le" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:58:58 PST Subject: ca18det Ive already done a lot of looking into this motor, I was once in the process of installing the turbo setup from the ca18 onto a ca20 motor... boing my 87 nissan 200sx.... in the us the ca18 came out in the pulsar gti and nx2000 gti's, all fwd and non turbo. Here in the state the turbo 200sx came w/a ca18det no intercooler and was rwd, in japan the same motor came in the older 240sx being 89-90 and pulsars and efni's... what motor are you putting in what car?? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:42:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Photo Radar On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >> > > >> >in the Ottawa Can. area it seems that if you didn't make the cop drop his > >> >doughnut he wont bother you > >> > > >> >> > >> In Colorado, if he spills his coffee, it's an equal number of points--go > >> straight to jail if he does both! > >> > >> Greg > >> > > I thought in the 'States the cops could shoot you for that 8*)) > > They only act that way east of the Mississippi . East of the Sierra/Cascade > crest and west of the 100th parallel, they don't ;even consider it, cuz > they assume that even more lead might come back the other way!! :-) > last time I was in Florida I got pulled over, them reached into the glove box for my wallet. when I turned back there was a pistol drawn and cocked. The cop later explained that if my car didn't have Canadain plate he probly would have shot me, and from then on to leave your hands on the wheel when stoped. Up here the cops don't like standing in the cold and most people don't have hand guns Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Putter C Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:34:24 +0200 Subject: RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE3E30.46DA3680 Content-Type: text/plain Hi I am not a expert on this, but if the ECU uses a current controlled driver then it would force a constant current through a injector. This current is the independant of the resistance and inductance of the injector. So if this is the case then you can put as many injectors in series as possible ?! That is if the turn-on current can be achieved by the voltage accross each injector. So the question is, what kind of driver are the ECU using, is it quasi current controlled, open loop or square voltage driven? Cheers Carlo > -----Original Message----- > From: Roland Johansson [SMTP:scirocco@xxx.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:02 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) > > If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and > start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle > for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not > burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger > number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer > to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high > > This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if > it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try > add a old computer fan and test again. > > > Roland Johansson > Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82 > > > > > Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long > overloading > > a driver would take. If I wanted to see if something was > going to > > work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it > take to > > see if they fail?. > > I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 > cyl TPI ecm > > Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted. > > I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that > would be one > > clue. > > Cheers > > Bruce - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE3E30.46DA3680 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih4NAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcBAAwADwAiABgAAgAuAQEggAMADgAAAM8HAQAM AA8AIgAcAAIAMgEBCYABACEAAAA5QjhGOUREN0M0OTlEMjExODY5NjAwQTBDOTAxOTUxMQANBwEE gAEANAAAAFJFOiBOb24gRGlzdHJ1Y3RpdmUgdGVzdGluZyAobGV0dGluZyB0aGUgc21va2Ugb3V0 KQBwEgENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AGACQLAAAuAAAAAwA2AAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AGIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADABGA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAA AAAACwAcgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAAQhQAAAAAAAAMACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAegAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAC2ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAA HgAugAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAM8FAADLBQAAIgkAAExaRnWPOGvwAwAKAHJj cGcxMjV2MgD0AfcgAqQD4wIAY4JoCsBzZXQwIAcThwKDAFAPtnBycTIQtmZ9CoAIyCA7CW8OMDWz AoAKgXVjAFALA2MAQUULYG4OEDAzMwumIB5IAKAKsQqECoBJIGEQbSBubwVAYSBlHHhwBJAFQAIg IHRo4QQALCBidQVABpAZQYBlIEVDVSB1EHD7BCAYkGMIcAlwAjAbAAIhSQNgbGwJgCBkBRB2VwSQ GhIDoGkFQHcIYGxzHCACEHJjGkAa8QIgcx8BkBtiGyUZUANgdWdoKxiBC4BqBZB0BbAuIP5UGWEb ByCBGiILgAEAGND7IbAeYm8aBAlwAJAeQh3CPyGwIZIVQCMkImUfyFNvZxnkIIEhNWNhEHAcpHm3 CGAmkQOgcBnBJrAgA4H+eR+3JhEDoBBwCIEa0QQgNHBvBBBpAmAaQD8hLSBRYSETGfV0CHBuLfcZ IRsXA5FiHdEQMAiQHHBtHCBiKGAaInYG8AGQZ/8s8gUAKgEYoC0RH7gXSiWBbRoicQpQHkBpGSEZ cnf9KsJrIaEiUhxFCsAm0xpVfQuAZxmQJgIFQDEgJrBp1xsPCYAZkG8h4SAJADZgexkQBcBzNMEz QS4WHENu+j8XSkMaMASQEAA5BArAhwkAF0oK9GxpMzYBQD8V0AFAEgAYYB/xEUQxNtQgLT0iTwUQ ZwuAB0D7BdAHkHMuUT0jF0Y8NDwBgwsTPDZpLTE0NAFAcTuAMTgwAUAM0EDDYtQgRgNhOgyDYhCg CACzFhEcIEpvEEAAgHMZIUBbU01UUDoE8GkzA2AuoG9AAMADEC5i6QUgLm4QgF0XRUHwBmBbAjBC V1QxMSIQeRmQSp8AcDdRKGAOIBmQMTlIcElIETowEjBQTUW3VEJvQldkaXlfARBpJkBKsRZwMi4J 8Gcu+0NgMXAtHkE8UEtQI+BFuIx1Yh/iQldTVjoHsPUZIUQjAXIj8RxhGUAxQnkWMCAoHAACQE+S GiJz7QRgayRRGcApPs8/2juE/wu2F7QaACdCC1Edw0CQFjDvHIEZIzgFGUByAHIeQAWw/i83Ai1R VoADICOBF0QeQd8Y8R0CHQAfgBhQcgDAAyDfR8AG0FVyGgAfwmso0hmQ/QCQbR1QTBEdgB1QAyAf Iv8CQBwAF0QdkTahVVEeQBkTzwdyIEJWWwQgc2gdQy5g/x0RGCEZshhRF0QZsAShJ0G/BcBVNSkh AaBRAUgQMECw/jUoIAuAGcAHkV2yGZAbwPcoYFjzRTBnVWEXRFm/WsJ/GfEnQmD/J0ID8FuxLOFj fwkAKVEXRCAQGhM7gGLwdN8ZkDwhBuACYChgbxxyGfH7YlI8UG024DMyGWAfcBdK/yBjIIEYUkRR G1EGkA3gGaPfBaBfY08SJ0IYkGc2wBwg9zFCAMAxZGYXRFjDW7EdMPxyayBAVEFV1yjxX6MqwvMn QhlRbmshIyWQX0BqIfNj0RdEYWQcIBiQBvAcIP8FoGvAYyFhcQORI4JPUhgQ/mcLcS/rF0RC7jBV RGVIEEQsNgMgVElDPRA49w5QeC8XRD5OQRohHJI0E6cx8x00LOIgIj4wZk80/iIdgnTBB+BdAhdE auIJAP91sDQRfQYYkBxFHTQBkFDQ/yBAckIYAF/gAjAcEWlxEHD/IYEaAEOwB4B981/ROaVv8P9Q IzpVfWBx8hkSH8ZythmQ94BmKRJO0G4DAFA0GDAdNP8dAGkVg3GGuYTFGiEoYHbgvQMQPy/lfWCD sWwgYU8i/x0wHPFrsHSDT1IZkInGPPFfKIgiYGtBGgAYkDgXRGNaeXtRUBgABZBtjYhS5YnVNEkA K0goeTHwBJD/GkASMDMyWURqsUCQAkCEUf+Nd4QBHUQ9kAhwjIaSgl+S/ZDxbmqxX+BZYI8jK3II YP8vMRlQKtAXRH63AiBcVX1g32iwClCNdzlafWBCTtFcVQUSwQCfEAADACYAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA CwACAAEAAAAeAHAAAQAAADQAAABSRTogTm9uIERpc3RydWN0aXZlIHRlc3RpbmcgKGxldHRpbmcg dGhlIHNtb2tlIG91dCkAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb4+MkWa1H+Jz6YuEdK+SAAA6C4RGgAAQAA5AFA8 pkQwPr4BAwDxPwkEAAAeADFAAQAAAAcAAABDQVJMT1AAAAMAGkAAAAAAHgAwQAEAAAAHAAAAQ0FS TE9QAAADABlAAAAAAAMA/T/kBAAAAwCAEP////8CAUcAAQAAACoAAABjPVpBO2E9IDtwPVN1bjts PUlOR1dFQi05OTAxMTIxMzM0MjRaLTM0NwAAAAIB+T8BAAAASwAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAAr L+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1TVU4vT1U9SU5HL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049VVNFUlMvQ049Q0FSTE9Q AAAeAPg/AQAAAAkAAABQdXR0ZXIgQwAAAAAeADhAAQAAAAcAAABDQVJMT1AAAAIB+z8BAAAASwAA AAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1TVU4vT1U9SU5HL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMv Q049VVNFUlMvQ049Q0FSTE9QAAAeAPo/AQAAAAkAAABQdXR0ZXIgQwAAAAAeADlAAQAAAAcAAABD QVJMT1AAAEAABzAgkVeULz6+AUAACDCANtpGMD6+AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAHgAdDgEA AAAwAAAATm9uIERpc3RydWN0aXZlIHRlc3RpbmcgKGxldHRpbmcgdGhlIHNtb2tlIG91dCkAHgA1 EAEAAAA+AAAAPDcxMTg3ODAwODVGOEQxMTE4NjcyMDBBMEM5MDE5NTExMEFFNkE1QGluZ3dlYi5p bmcuc3VuLmFjLnphPgAAAAsAKQAAAAAACwAjAAAAAAADAAYQIKIZ8gMABxCHBQAAAwAQEAAAAAAD ABEQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJSUFNTk9UQUVYUEVSVE9OVEhJUyxCVVRJRlRIRUVDVVVTRVNB Q1VSUkVOVENPTlRST0xMRUREUklWRVJUSEVOSVRXT1VMREZPUkNFQUNPTlNUQU5UQ1VSUkVOVFRI Uk9VR0gAAAAAAgF/AAEAAAA+AAAAPDcxMTg3ODAwODVGOEQxMTE4NjcyMDBBMEM5MDE5NTExMEFF NkE1QGluZ3dlYi5pbmcuc3VuLmFjLnphPgAAAH7D - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE3E30.46DA3680-- ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:42:46 -0500 Subject: Re: air/fuel gauge - -----Original Message----- From: Emmett To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 8:29 PM Subject: air/fuel gauge In the archives, there is a wealth of info., about O2 sensors (EGO, EGOR are some topics). Bruce >March Custom rodder has add for >Dakota Digital air/fuel mixture gauge >Displays mV, works with 1 to 3 wire EGO >Phone 800-852-3228 > ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:49:29 -0600 Subject: RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) I would not worry about the current handling of the transistor that much since the pulsed current rating is usually 5 times the continuous rating. I would worry about the increased inductive kick when the injector turns off. The zener diode that clamps this energy may fail due to a higher voltage spike. The zener would degrade over time and if it didn't short it would leave the transistor unprotected and the transistor would fail shortly after. Sooo beef up the zener and everything should be fine , IMHO Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Putter C [SMTP:Cputter@xxx.za] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:34 AM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) > > Hi > > I am not a expert on this, but if the ECU uses a current controlled driver > then it would force a constant current through a injector. This current is > the independant of the resistance and inductance of the injector. So if > this is the case then you can put as many injectors in series as possible > ?! That is if the turn-on current can be achieved by the voltage accross > each injector. > > So the question is, what kind of driver are the ECU using, is it quasi > current controlled, open loop or square voltage driven? > > Cheers > Carlo > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roland Johansson [SMTP:scirocco@xxx.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:02 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) > > If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and > start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle > for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not > burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger > number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer > to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high > > This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if > it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try > add a old computer fan and test again. > > > Roland Johansson > Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82 > > > > > Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long > overloading > > a driver would take. If I wanted to see if something was > going to > > work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it > take to > > see if they fail?. > > I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 > cyl TPI ecm > > Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted. > > I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that > would be one > > clue. > > Cheers > > Bruce ------------------------------ From: Al Lipper Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:43:57 -0800 Subject: EFI system plans. Mike, thanks for your interest. I would very much be interested in further developing the system into a marketable product. As it is, it has all the features of Holley's Projection Di and more (not including electronic ignition). In fact, I carefully examined the holley system when I developed it. It even reads in the lookup tables that the Holley system uses and converts them to its own tables (which have greater resolution). In general, the system runs quite well, with improved power and performance right up to wide-open throttle. The 8051 assembly work it needs is pretty minimal (I did most of it, and this was my first experience with 8051). I hope I didn't scare people off with the warning about it not being a ready to build and run system - this is a bit of an exaggeration as it's really pretty complete, but it does require some knowledge of EFI and computers to get it going. What I posted was the basic info on the system, but I certainly would be happy to provide more details for anyone who wishes. Please send replies to both my email (efi@xxx. Thanks. Al At 07:05 AM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Al, > >I managed to download the files on your TBI EFI system and liked they way it >was designed. I generally just get the DIY-EFI mail, read it and archive it >in the hopes that some day I'll try my hand at building their EFI332 system, >however your system I'm more familiar with, being it is an Intel 8031/32 >based system. I haven't done any work with the 8031 in quite some time, but >I'm familiar with its capabilities as a micorcontroller. If you ever plan on >developing this system into a marketable system and need any more >volunteers/victims for your system, I wouldn't mind helping out. I'm >currently running the Holley Projection II system on a 1970 Bronco and I'm >basically satisfied with it's design, but I ceartainly would like something >that is more adaptable to the needs of off highway wheeling in the mountains >(ie: changes in altitude). I don;tknow if you've had any replies to your >email - by the looks of the DIY-EFI list(s), it appears they have ingored >your post. Let me know if you plan on developing your system further - I can >help in building/assembling electronic hardware and if pressed I can get >back into relearing 803x assembly or basic. > >Michael J. Kupec >mkupec@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:41:48 -0800 Subject: RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) If the drivers are peak and hold style and the work as advertised, they will do the peak, essentially until the trigger current is reached, the hold at the hold current. So if you have 50 injectors you will only have the hold current that the drive supports, so adding injectors is a waste O time unless they are saturated types. I missed the start of the thread so didn't get the reason for paralleling injectors, but you can't parallel peak and hold style injectors, will not work as you think. Saturated (15ohm) injectors will, and it just depends on the current capability of the driver, and as you are trying to find out, how hot they will run. The other thing to watch out for is that as you parallel the injector you also increase the amount of current back into the flyback/clamp diode that is in the circuit, so that is also another source of heat or problem. Just some food for thougth. Sandy At 03:34 PM 1/12/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi > >I am not a expert on this, but if the ECU uses a current controlled driver >then it would force a constant current through a injector. This current is >the independant of the resistance and inductance of the injector. So if this >is the case then you can put as many injectors in series as possible ?! That >is if the turn-on current can be achieved by the voltage accross each >injector. > >So the question is, what kind of driver are the ECU using, is it quasi >current controlled, open loop or square voltage driven? > >Cheers >Carlo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Roland Johansson [SMTP:scirocco@xxx.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:02 PM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) >> >> If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and >> start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle >> for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not >> burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger >> number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer >> to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high >> >> This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if >> it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try >> add a old computer fan and test again. >> >> >> Roland Johansson >> Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82 >> >> >> >> > Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long >> overloading >> > a driver would take. If I wanted to see if something was >> going to >> > work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it >> take to >> > see if they fail?. >> > I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 >> cyl TPI ecm >> > Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted. >> > I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that >> would be one >> > clue. >> > Cheers >> > Bruce > ------------------------------ From: Mike Pitts Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:43:22 -0500 Subject: RE: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out) What would be the effect of placing 3 saturated type injectors in parallel on one peak-n-hold driver? Will the peak function of the peak-n-hold driver be of benefit to opening the saturated injectors? Do three 15 ohm injectors in parallel look like one 5 ohm injector to the driver? TIA, - -Mike - -----Original Message----- <> ------------------------------ From: d houlton x0710 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:54:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: Searchable archives question Who controls the archives for the list? Would it be possible to change the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing search words together. It's next to useless for finding something if I have to wade through 700 messages because I can't narrow it down somewhat. The Subject line search does use the regexp search which is why I ask. thanks - --Dan ------------------------------ From: Anthony Gordon Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:55:26 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI system plans. Hi Al, I am currently using a lucas mechanical PI system and have been lurking on the list for a while fooling to gain insight into converting the system to EFI. I woul welcome further info. and insights. Thanks, Tony Gordon >get it going. What I posted was the basic info on the system, but I >certainly would be happy to provide more details for anyone who wishes. >Please send replies to both my email (efi@xxx. >Thanks. > > Al ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:49:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Searchable archives question d houlton x0710 wrote: > > Who controls the archives for the list? Would it be possible to change > the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing search > words together. > > It's next to useless for finding something if I have to wade through > 700 messages because I can't narrow it down somewhat. > > The Subject line search does use the regexp search which is why I ask. > > thanks > --Dan Dan, I maintain the WWW page, which includes the archive search. Improving the search engine is on my list of things to-do, but it hasn't been done yet. Basically there's a WAIS server that indexes and searches the archive files, and something called SFgate that is an interface between WAIS and the WWW page. I don't know anything about either of those so there's a steep learning curve to make this change. If there's a WAIS or SFgate expert somewhere on the list, then speak up 'cause this is somewhere that I could use some help. - --steve ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:42:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out) >What would be the effect of placing 3 saturated type >injectors in parallel on one peak-n-hold driver? Three parallel injectors (@15 ohms & 3mH each) will give you an equivalent circuit of 5 ohms & 1mH. The "RL" combination of the equivalent circuit versus the electrical characteristics of the injector current driver is what is most important to you. A peak&hold driver, GM 4/1 amp for instance, must "sense" 4 amps before transitioning to 1 amp of holding current. Other manufacturer's drivers have other current ratings, and may include transition timers which override the current considerations. Two questions must usually be answered before deciding whether things will work/last.............1)can the current driver ever sense "4" amps through your new equivalent circuit, and.................2)how "long" will it take for said circuit to build up to "4" amps? The first question is governed by I=E/R, or in our case 13.8volts/5ohms. So, in our example, even with a good battery we will never reach the 4 amp transition and chances are pretty good that the driver will burn out prematurely because it is not rated for significant use at levels over 1 amp. In this example, the attainable current will be 2.76 amps or less. The second question is governed by the "RL" time constant of our equivalent circuit. The current buildup of an "RL" circuit (which injectors are) is based on I=[E/R -(E/R * exp ((-Rt/L)))]. Basically, saturated injectors require opening currents of 3+ amps for about 1ms, in order to ensure that the injector opens against mechanical inertia and hydraulic pressure. Our example parallel circuit will never transition from 4 to 1 amp (see above), so this is irrelevant. But, you should run the numbers for your case, if you plan to adhere to peak&hold control. If the peak&hold transition happens well before 1ms (for saturated injectors) then chances are that your saturated injectors will not open, especially in the presence of increased fuel pressure. > >Will the peak function of the peak-n-hold driver be >of benefit to opening the saturated injectors? Depends upon what flavour of peak&hold driver that you have (see above). > >Do three 15 ohm injectors in parallel look like one >5 ohm injector to the driver? Sort of. See above. You should also include a series resistance of about .5ohms, to account for line voltage drop and a "sensing" resistor. If you want to mix/match injectors and drivers then it is usually best to use an external injector current driver box. With such a setup, the OE driver "triggers" an input signal for the external driver, and the external driver (presumably peak&hold) drives the injector. Accel have such a product, under the name "VIC", or Variable Injector Controller. Or, you could build your own external driver circuit from industrial components. Bye; Walt. ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:56:46 -0800 Subject: Re: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out) >Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long overloading >a driver would take. If I wanted to see if something was going to >work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it take to >see if they fail?. > I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 cyl TPI ecm > Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted. >I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that would be one >clue. >Cheers >Bruce You've got two choices, either...........1)calculate the "RL" equivalent of your new circuit, and deduce whether or not things will work with the current driver that you have, or..........2)run your setup on a test bench. Test bench time should be proportional to real world operating time. Personally, I'd use an external injector driver, either purchased "off-the-shelf" or homemade. Bye; Walt. ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:15:51 -0800 Subject: RE: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out) The problem is that if you have a hold current of 1 amp, and the each of the injectors takes 1 amp, the drive will hold the current at 1 amp, even if their is a dead short (until the drive smokes). So will not work very will. I slipped up in the comment on the first email about adding saturated injectors, it still will not work. Peak and hold drivers work something like this, it dumps the full voltage current into the injector, since the injector is around 2 ohms, you get a very fast reaction, but the current if left on for very long would smoke the coil, so after the initial quick zap, the current is reduced to a safe level by some feedback that has a fixed value, might be 1 amp, so as you add more injectors in parallel the current will hold at 1 amp, and each injector will be getting less, in the case of 2 injectors, each would get 1/2 amp hold. Saturated injectors are basically a switch, so you can (within limits of the device) add additional Saturated injectors. Yes, pretty much 3 15 ohm injectors will look like one 5 ohm. BUT if you are driving them with a satruated type, the power problem will not be that bad, as the transistor is operating like a switch the amount of power that is dissipated in heat will be much much less then a saturated type. You will still need to check for over heating as it may be designed with minimal heat sinking, but you could easily fix that! Again as long as the drive can deal with the extra current, you should be ok, just need to get rid of the extra heat Sandy At 03:43 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: > >What would be the effect of placing 3 saturated type >injectors in parallel on one peak-n-hold driver? > >Will the peak function of the peak-n-hold driver be >of benefit to opening the saturated injectors? > >Do three 15 ohm injectors in parallel look like one >5 ohm injector to the driver? > >TIA, >-Mike > >-----Original Message----- ><on the current capability of the driver>> ------------------------------ From: "Scott Feaver" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:38:46 -0500 Subject: Factory Instrument Panels Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to EFI? The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90 Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird. The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6. The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6 (which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives three). If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete every third pulse from the spark module? I don't know what voltage the signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module. Since there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;) Thanks, Scott ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:58:00 -0500 Subject: Searchable archives question - -> Who controls the archives for the list? Would it be possible to - -> change the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing - -> search words together. Just download the actual text to your local drive and use your own tools. Works much better than any of that Web stuff. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:31:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Factory Instrument Panels - -----Original Message----- From: Scott Feaver To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:00 PM Subject: Factory Instrument Panels >Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to >EFI? I'm not an EE, but it is an air-core meter using a National Semiconductor driver, 1949 comes to mind. If you can't find it it has been mentioned in the archives. Bruce > >The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90 >Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird. The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder >car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6. The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6 >(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives >three). > >If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete >every third pulse from the spark module? I don't know what voltage the >signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module. Since >there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;) > >Thanks, >Scott > ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:34:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Factory Instrument Panels At 08:38 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to >EFI? > >The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90 >Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird. The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder >car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6. The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6 >(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives >three). > >If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete >every third pulse from the spark module? I don't know what voltage the >signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module. Since >there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;) Scott, Usually there is a resistor to be changed in a tach for the number of cyls... not sure if the dash's had a switch or jumper or socketed resistor, but I can't see them using 2 different tachs for the same year, different engine... I'd pull the guage cluster and check around the tach circuitry. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Marc Piccioni Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:49:42 -0700 Subject: EFI reference books - updated information Group, I have just ordered the following 2 books: Understanding Automotive Electronics & Ford Fuel Injection...... The reference list needs to be updated for the book by "Ribbens, William B., Mansour Norman P., et al, Understanding Automotive electronics" The current information is: Fifth Edition ISBN 0768002117. I will post a review after digesting the information. /Marc ------------------------------ From: Marc Piccioni Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:55:39 -0700 Subject: More book info..... I missed adding the following information; The ISBN # for "Automotive Sensors by M.H. Westbrook and J.D Turner" is 0750302933. Current cost is $ 162.00. ------------------------------ From: Marc Piccioni Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:01:06 -0700 Subject: RE: Factory Instrument Panels Usually tach's use a RC circuit to integrate the ignition pulses into an average DC voltage which drive the actual meter, I suggest tracing out the tach's internal circuitry and finding the RC network. Repalcing the fixed resistor with a pot and calibrate the tach using a reference tach will get you going. - ---------- From: Scott Feaver[SMTP:sfeaver@xxx.net] Sent: January 12, 1999 6:38 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Factory Instrument Panels Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to EFI? The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90 Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird. The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6. The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6 (which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives three). If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete every third pulse from the spark module? I don't know what voltage the signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module. Since there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;) Thanks, Scott begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@0%`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`& !```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&$`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S M,BYE;F``,P`0`` M`"(```!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S,BYE;F5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO M:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=2<``@$+, $````G````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$5&23,S M,BY%3D# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!@```!M<&EC8VEO;FE M871T8V%N861A+FYE= `#``80I"YL[@,`!Q">`P``'@`($ $```!E````55-5 M04Q,651!0TA355-%05)#0TE20U5)5%1/24Y414=2051%5$A%24=.251)3TY0 M54Q315-)3E1/04Y!5D5204=%1$-63TQ404=%5TA)0TA$4DE6151(14%#5%5! 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!7(=0> M`C! 4 !P92! +[\Y,,,S-C(W&]4S-DAASP0@`' O$"B0(&4A(1UB ';!' M32[ (5(*L&/^:R%2"X!/HA]0)^0?$!]"QQS@$8 BT6%D804P*C%#'H *A45& M23],?%2?'V$7H$^ '_$D(&%M':#\L#81VA.0IV5 AP!N!(@?QN8AX05[1:`!Q@6P4I`/]5LR?0#= M MQ52P`)W $D'\*A2O@(_$G8EW#'&!>,S/P+C%6 M-EQU+,-7,58!QR?3`: E0C4P)5,P'Y"_'V %P%'A'U)A0 J%*")$O0# :P>1 M$; `@!V08@60_F$=<@(0! @)O$%0&5X<#-Q7:$>D!&P_F4D`!Y1 M%Z N`"+!3&8?4.4)T2DOK4EF'T(7H%& Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:07:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Factory Instrument Panels Howday The GM tach uses the National aircore drive. It is in the National special book. Also there are several diagrams I think one of the JTR books showes how to change from a 4 cy to a 6 to a 8. If memory serves me right there is a resistor ic pack with the pertinent resistors gl:peter ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #30 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".