DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 15 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 035 In this issue: Re: O2 bung brazing/welding? Re: O2 bung brazing/welding? Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie) Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie) Re: O2 bung brazing/welding? SV: Factory Instrument Panels See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:32:32 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 bung brazing/welding? On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:57:08 -0500 Shannen Durphey writes: >I've been successful drilling a hole in the pipe/header large enough >for the sensor portion of the O2 sensor, and welding an 18mm spark >plug anti-fouler around the hole. The anti-fouler needs to be cut >short enough so the sensor protrudes into the exhaust stream. If you >find a source for more "professional" bungs, please post it. >Shannen You can get the bungs designed specifically for the sensors (they're actually fairly thick) from Ramchargers (and probablly lots of other speed shops), Summit Racing http://www.summitracing.com and from Holley. If you buy the Pro-Jection kit, the bung comes with it. Ray Drouillard ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 bung brazing/welding? On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:18:58 -0800 Ross Corrigan writes: >I'm going to need an O2 bung installed in my exhaust right below my header, >is this something I can just drill out my exhaust and 'braze' the bung on? >I have no welding/brazing etc experience but wouldn't mind >learning....... A muffler shop can do it cheaply. If you want to weld it, I would suggest practicing on something equally thin before you try. It's easy to blow a hole through exhaust piping. > >gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for If you want a looooong description of my experience of adding the 4Di system to a Jeep, send me mail direct. > >thanks in advance > >(not directly efi I guess but I'm sure you guys can answer this...) > >PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working >battery... You don't need a modem for the 4Di system - just an RS232 port. Also, the minimum system requirements for the 4Di software is a 286 with EGA video. I ended up buying a 486 DX2/50 and it is plenty fast. I paid around $300.00 for it (used) about a year ago. You should be able to get one for less now. Also, I power it with the standard 110V transformer and a cheap ($20.00) inverter. The battery doesn't last long enough to suit me. Ray Drouillard '89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer AMC 360, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3" exhaust system, RV cam, Jacobs Omni-Magnum, Holley Pro-Jection 4Di > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > IZCC#255 EZCC #45a BCZCR >1980 280ZX w/ parts from '68,'86,'87,'95 Camaro, '66, '69, '82 >'vette, 82 >280ZX, '86, '88 300ZXT, and more >68 327 9.5:1, 2830lbs dry, GTech times dropping steadily;^) >ICQ # 11549358 >http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml >http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg >'where a >Z belongs' > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Jason Weir Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:38:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie) WILMAN wrote: > > I've looked at several of them but frankly I'm not sure what > > I should be looking for in a programmable EFI system. The > > Accell DFI system seems popular and so do the Haltech > > products. I must have looked at a dozen Mfr.'s. I was leaning > > toward the Holley system but after receiving several messages > > on the problems and deficiencies they have I changed my mind. > > Which system(s) is/are considered the best? > > > > Charles > > > I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good. > They are at http://www.gems.co.uk > About how much did the EM20 cost if you don't mind me asking? Jason ------------------------------ From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:04:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie) A couple of points: Holley makes some analog systems, but at least two (4D and 4Di) are digital. Both have O2 sensors and run in closed-loop mode quite well. In fact, they work without even being programmed in closed-loop mode at cruise, though they get really stupid when you step on or release the throttle. A little programming and they run beautifully. Some of the older kits have a closed-loop kit, which is an O2 sensor and an extra box. I have seen a picture of it, but know nothing about it beyond that. The Holley Pro-Jection 4Di box gives you unparelleled programming ability, and the ability to record every sensor, play it back, graph it, export it to Excel, or whatever you want to do for tuning purposes. The 4Di unit will also control your spark advance. What you said about a "wet" manifold is all true. I have found that it doesn't cause me any trouble, however. Part of this might be because all of the runners in my Edelbrock Performer manifold are the same size and shape (except perhaps mirror imaged), with the exception that the lower plane has a bit more vertical travel right under the throttle body. Hey, it worked well with carburaters, and works even better with fuel injection. Ray Drouillard '89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer Pro-Jection 4Di (and other stuff) On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:57:28 +0000 Frederic Breitwieser writes: > > Which system(s) is/are considered the best? > >Well Charles, they are all good, and they all suck. > >The Holley Projection system is more of an analog system, >like a carbeurator, with enough sophistication to make for a >reliable, stable air/fuel system. Advantages are that its >replaces your carb, so your regular everyday existing intake >manifold would be just dandy, thus reducing the overall cost >of converting to EFI. Another advantage, is you can change >the settings very easily, using either a "black box" or a >laptop, depending on which model you buy, and update your >settings if you decide to toss say, your stock cam, and >through in a "thumper" cam. Its flexible, adaptable, and >works out of the box. There are two major drawbacks that I >see - first, it uses your intake manifold, which means your >rough idle due to fuel "sheeting" on the walls of your >intake manifold still exist, and it doesn't utilize an O2 >sensor (that I know of), therefore its not a feedback >system. If you are concerned about emissions, this >obviously can become a problem. Throttle Body EFI, where >you have few injectors (one to many) servicing many >cylinders, all experience this sheeting problem in a worse >case scenario. Sheeting is when the fuel collects along the >intake runners, then as the miniscus of the fuel is >exceeded, it slothes off into your cylinders. Another >example of a miniscus is when you overfill a glass of water, >and have the water higher than the glass, in a sort of >bubble - this is the miniscus - or the natural attraction of >molecules that is stronger than the force of gravity against >its own weight. Sorry for the horrible explaination, its >been ages since I've opened a science book. The other draw >back of a wet-style manifold is that certain cylinders >typically get more fuel than others, since the carb unit or >throttle body is located in the center - takes fuel longer >to travel longer distances. > >Now, this means my opinion is that multi-port EFI offers a >lot of advantages. First, is the sheeting problem >disappears entirely. Because air is much more movable than >fuel, your manifold design is not as mission critical as in >a wet design, therefore you can get away with a lot more so >to speak in manifold use/design/construction. Also, most, >if not all, multi-port injection systems (like Electromotive >& Haltech, two name two of many) can control each injector >independantly, based on feedback from an o2 sensor. This >means that your computer, based on RPM, load, temperature, >manifold pressure of vaccuum, can determine the "right" >amount of fuel necessary to match the airflow, which you as >a driver determine with your gas pedal. This higher level >of control obviously is more desirable, especially in a high >performance/low emissions application, but it really costs >more. You have more sensors, fabrication if you are not >using and OEM EFI system on a similarly styled >same-manufacturer engine (as in, late model camaro EFI on a >1969 Caprice, for example). > >I've never had the opportunity to play with the DFI system, >however I have played with both the mid 80's OEM GM systems, >as well as the Haltech ECMs and the Electromotive ECMs. For >flexibility and control, I prefer the Haltech. I managed >with a little electronic add-ons to drive three injectors >per cylinder mixing different fuels into a twin-turbo V6. >With the Electromotive unit, I struggled and struggled to >get it right, which I never did. Don't get me wrong, the >Electromotive is a good, reliable unit, and their tech >support is really good. I asked them a lot of stupid >questions and they were patient and gave me a lot of good >answers. When they didn't know, which was rare, they stated >such. I also found that the electromotive units were easier >to start off - the "Maps" for generic engines were >reasonable and close to what I needed, therefore instead of >spending a day entering data, which are guesses at best, I >could use an existing map or profile, and "tweek" from >there. In contrast, the Haltech unit was significantly more >flexible, but at the cost of being able to attach, turn on, >and at least start the motor and tweak from there. The >included maps didn't fit my application at all. THough, I'm >sure Haltech doesn't have lots of call for twin turbo 3 inj >per cyl V6 applications, to be entirely fair. > >One of my many slow moving projects is to convert a Chrysler >383 stroker (431 cid) to run under the OEM GM system I have >leached from a junkyard, including all sensors, MAP, O2, >water temp, crank, etc. The intake on the 383 has already >been milled to support an injector per cylinder, however I >have not welded in the bosses yet. I still have the engine >apart trying to figure out the insides. Anyway, long story >short, the only issue I see is fabricating the crank sensor >mounting bracket, and making it adjustable incase my bracket >is off. > >There is a book by Jeff Hartmann, called "Fuel INjection >something", I don't recall the exact title, but it does >cover installation and tuning of the Holley system, the >Haltech system as well as the Electromotive system, and >basic theory, math formulas, in case you want to fabricate >your own system either from scratch, or from oem parts and >ECMs. > >While this is not the answer you want to hear, I can't say >for sure that any one system is better than the other. They >all have advantages and disadvantages over each other, and >different price ranges to boot. I'd highly recommend Jeff >Hartman's book - for 20 bucks it gives you a good overview, >and some actual installations on specific units, and from >there, you can make a better choice. Sorry I don't have the >exact title, but it has a black cover and you can't miss it >:) > > >-- >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com >1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental >1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab >2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Ross Corrigan Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:53:53 -0800 Subject: Re: O2 bung brazing/welding? >>gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for > >If you want a looooong description of my experience of adding the 4Di >system to a Jeep, send me mail direct. thanks, you actually sent it to me almost a year ago, still have it archived and printed! thanks again >>PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working >>battery... > >You don't need a modem for the 4Di system - just an RS232 port. Also, >the minimum system requirements for the 4Di software is a 286 with EGA >video. I ended up buying a 486 DX2/50 and it is plenty fast. I paid >around $300.00 for it (used) about a year ago. You should be able to get >one for less now. thanks for the modem info;-)) I was going to have Lingerfelter monitor my tables and email back recc'd changes while on the fly;^) Waiting to find a solid 486DX system for <$300CD (200US), good thing I'm patient;-) >Also, I power it with the standard 110V transformer and a cheap ($20.00) >inverter. The battery doesn't last long enough to suit me. sounds great ------------------------------ From: "Roland Johansson" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:33:17 +0100 Subject: SV: Factory Instrument Panels Sounds like it's time for you boys to switch over 100% to the metric system and don't get stuck in the middle. :-) Roland Johansson Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82 > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > > > > (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs > > > > backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge) > > > > > > Yeah, I'm still trying to convert metric RPM into standard RPM. > > > > Oil pressure in psi versus oil pressure in KPa's (for models with the > > oil pressure gauge in the tach.) Yes it's silly. > > > > -- > > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > > Silly? Imagine the technician's shock when he ordered a temp gauge > for an Anerican Olds Cutlass, only to find out that GM makes a metric > part for replacement. And that the parts books don't mention it, but > GM automatically ships the metric part no. gauge out when the standard > gauge is ordered. Then try telling the customer that. Good old GM. > Shannen ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #35 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".