DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 18 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 041 In this issue: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC Re: TCC switch & questions..... Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC Re: TCC switch & questions..... New Car Classification/Name Re: Pingin' Re: Air Volume Calculation Re: TCC switch & questions..... New Car Classification/Name Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC Re: 555 EFI Re: 555 EFI Re: Electronic timing advance Re: Air Volume Calculation Re: TCC switch & questions..... DFI info DIY_EFI FTP directory Re: 24000 ppm VSS? Re: 24000 ppm VSS? RE: Schematic symbol for zero crossing detector Re: Pingin' Re: Air Volume Calculation Re: Pingin' Re: Uploaded BIN to FTP Chyrsler injector head Re: 555 EFI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:39:45 +0000 Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC Mark Romans wrote: > Call TPIS at 612-448-6021 or look at their web page at... > http://www.tpis.com/ > >TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow > >research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and Actually, I'm just starting to make paper templates for my Chrysler 383 for a sheet-metal intake, and will be using TPI off a 1992 or 1993 Camaro, forget which year. I managed to get a good deal at the local boneyard for the ECM, wiring harness from firewall to engine, all sensors, and the actual TPI runners/manifold, plenum. They want the manifold, runners & plenum back, which is part of the deal, however its of no use to me anyway, since I have a Chrysler. THe www.tpis.com website is a great resource! - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Barry Tisdale Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:30:57 -0500 Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions..... Bruce - Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/ what you said. Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily transportation, not a race machine. As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e., killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up? Might be pretty hard to time accurately, but the clutch would essentially lock under no active engine load; there'd still be the inertia of the converter and a speed mismatch between the engine crankshaft & trans input shaft, but should be a lot easier on all components involved. Probably not worth the effort ITO lower ETs, but would ease the situation, even w/ the factory applied lockup in 4th gear. Just a thought - thanks again - Barry ------------------------------ From: "Fran and Bud" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:18:48 +0000 Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC >From TPIS! Couple of books available. They are at www.tpis.com Bud - ---------- >From: Marc Piccioni >To: "'diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Subject: RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC >Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999, 6:07 PM > >Any idea's where to get this book? > > >---------- >From: Mark Romans[SMTP:romans@xxx.net] >Sent: January 18, 1999 11:04 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC > >TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow >research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and >modified maf using for comparison purposes the stock runners, slp cast, >lingenfelter cast, tpis extruded and tpis siamesed runners. Obviously the >stock runners at 1.470 diameter id were down from the others oh hp and but >torque was similar but at 700 to 1000 lower rpm band. With the stock >runners it made 469.6 ft lbs at 3750 rpm's and 390 hp at 5750. The biggest >jump was to the siamesed runners (Which are no longer made by tpis) at 462ft >lbs at 4250 (Actually down) and 427.7 hp at 5750 rpms. So the stock runners >are not that much of a limitation. The whole thing works as a system. > >I would recommend that anyone wanting to do any playing with a tpi system >buy the tpis book. They have exhaustive flow tests on every component >documented in this book. > >A 406 with a tpi ought to be a really fun combination. > >Mark >-----Original Message----- >From: ECMnut@xxx.com> >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 6:36 AM >Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC > > >>Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs >>or drag racing.. >> >>With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative >>rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well. >>Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post. >>I couldn't agree more. IF you can keep it connected >>to the pavement, the car should provide big fun.. >>The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a >>TPI intake amplifying the issue. With the stock runners, >>it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM. >>Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with >>a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic >> cam and a box-stock 750 Holley. It turned 11.70s all >>day long. It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner. >>Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400 >>shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible.. >>I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was >>nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard. >>The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at >>15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s.... >>Almost a full second improvement over the 350.. >>Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting >>line much harder than before. A hard throttle stab >>from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost >>a foot. The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension >>and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available. >>If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been >>faster and cleaner. Even with a carb, I considered >>getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found >>the time. The engine stayed in the car until two years >>later, when I sold everything.. >>The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the >>RPMs low (below 6,000?).. That includes the burnout. >>Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death, >>the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000 >>RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the >>oil pan his first day at the track.. >>Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun.. >>Mike V >> > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:26:02 -0500 Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions..... New Car Classification/Name - -----Original Message----- From: Barry Tisdale To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 3:01 PM Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions..... >Bruce - > >Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/ what you said. Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily transportation, not a race machine. > >As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e., killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up? Piece of cake if your working with a ecm that controls tranny functions, oh, thata be a PCM, gee they do that already, hmmm. Rumor has it thou they reduce timing rather than interupt the actual ignition firing. Bruce Well Doc has named my Firebird,, since it's not Pro Stock, or Pro Street, or Pro Cruise, and as nutty the ecm project has gotten, it's called Pro Zac snip >Just a thought - thanks again - Barry > ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Pingin' Greg Hermann wrote: > > >With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake side) > >the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation. When I repaired the turbo (stopped the > >oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ). I've heard > >that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why? > >Any intelligent answers out there?? > > > >Thanks.... > > Motor oil is generally pretty low octane stuff, and also high cetane, > whichever way you care to talk about it. It is an effective, if not good > diesel fuel, it likes to auto-ignite. A motor oil leak into the turbo > compressor on a (some are turbocharged) GMC two stroke diesel can cause it > to overspeed to destruction--- > > Regards, Greg As will a holed piston on ANY diesel without an air throttle. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:48:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Air Volume Calculation Anthony Gordon wrote: > > I have a Triuph mechanical injection system on a 72 TR6. Using a O2 sensor > helps tune the system, but it would a lot easier to tune if I could > eliminate the 6 separate throttle butterflies in the throttle bodies which > causes great synchronization problems. > > The engine is a 2498cc unit, and produces max BHP at 5300 rpm. Is there a > calculation for the optimal area/size of a single throttle body that I > could use? I am hoping that I can re-use a throttle body from a junk yard > so suggestions on type as well would also be most helpful. > > TIA > > Tony Gordon I am assuming roughly 3 litres displacement? Try a throttle body from a 3 litre to 4 litre engine - possibly a Ford V6 ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:20:51 EST Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions..... New Car Classification/Name In a message dated 1/17/99 3:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp@xxx.net writes: > > > >As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e., > killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up? > > Piece of cake if your working with a ecm that controls tranny > functions, oh, thata be a PCM, gee they do that already, hmmm. > Rumor has it thou they reduce timing rather than interupt > the actual ignition firing. I hadn't though of that. As a rev limiter, the factory SyTys kill the fuel at 4700 RPM, then turn it back on after it drops by about 200 rpm... This makes for sort of a mechanical bull imitation, and since it is still under significant boost, it is usually accompanied by detonation too... I guess you'd have problems if you cut the ignition instead... The exhaust would fill with fuel/air mix... Not good when the fire returns to the engine... Mike V ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:23:31 -0600 Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the > RPMs low (below 6,000?).. That includes the burnout. > Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death, > the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000 > RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the > oil pan his first day at the track.. The stock car boys go 8000+ by replacing the block, crank, rods and pistons. My stock block and crank uses 6" eagle rods ($320) and KB pistons and is good for 7500 rpm but the EFI won't go past 6000 because the injectors are too small. Be sure to get good heads, etc. if you want power at 7000+. Nuff said Tom ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:55:20 -0500 Subject: Re: 555 EFI - -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 10:47 PM Subject: Re: 555 EFI >> OK, I found a diagram for a summing amp, but is uses a dual polarity >> power source, anyone got a clue for how to do a summing amp with >> just +5v power supply?. Or can it be done with a single?. > >Easy... I've done this before... however certain op-amps, >with JFET inputs tend to lose some consistancy in their >amplifications or inverting... the LM324 and the 741 and >741C do just fine. > >Put a 1k resistor between +V and the "virtual ground" and a >1k resistor between -V (real ground) and the "virtual >ground". Then, you have a split power supply for Op-Amps. >This works very well, and I've done this many, many times >for little amplifier projects where the pre-amp stage needed >to have a split powersupply, and I didn't want to run two >9V batteries, just one. Can you picture it, or should I do >a quickie GIF tomorrow? I think I got it. Will be trying stuff Mon/Tues so I'll holler if it gets too smokey here. Bruce As nutty as the ecm stuff has gotten, Doc and Grumpy have renamed the Firebird Pro Zac > > > > >-- >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com >1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental >1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab >2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) > ------------------------------ From: "Jon Fedock" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:26:18 -0500 Subject: Re: 555 EFI Hello Group, I am FAR from an EE, but maybe a good start for 555 timing might be from a frequency-type MAF sensor? I know this kinda leads to port injection because of the plumbing nightmares involved in TBI and a MAF, but ....... just an idea. Jon Fedock ------------------------------ From: Charles Brooks Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:58:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Electronic timing advance Have you looked at these? Here's the name of the system and the Summit P/N Crane Cams Three Stage Retard Control CRN-9000-0009 MSD Fixed Curve Timing Computer MSD-8980 MSD Programmable Timing Computer MSD-8981 MSD Adjustable Timing Control MSD-8680 MSD Multi-step Retard Control MSD-8972 All of them are pretty basic, no frills, timing control units with varying methods and amount of control. I'd be pretty surprised if one of these wouldn't work for your application. Good Luck, Charles BRooks Somebody wrote: > >Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate > >such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or > >Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need). ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:10:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Air Volume Calculation A really rough rule of thumb for a single monoblade wide open throttle airflow rate is 140 cfm (@xxx.5"Hg pressure drop) per square inch of open throttle area (total bore area minus the throttle shaft cross-sectional area). Greatly oversized monoblades can reduce the pressure drop loss, but they can also introduce tip-in control and part throttle driveability problems. Sometimes you can fabricate/attach a decreasing radius linkage to mechanically "slow" the initial monoblade rotation with respect to accelerator pedal travel if the later issue is a problem. Have Fun; Walt. - -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Gordon To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 12:12 PM Subject: Air Volume Calculation >I have a Triuph mechanical injection system on a 72 TR6. Using a O2 sensor >helps tune the system, but it would a lot easier to tune if I could >eliminate the 6 separate throttle butterflies in the throttle bodies which >causes great synchronization problems. > >The engine is a 2498cc unit, and produces max BHP at 5300 rpm. Is there a >calculation for the optimal area/size of a single throttle body that I >could use? I am hoping that I can re-use a throttle body from a junk yard >so suggestions on type as well would also be most helpful. > >TIA > >Tony Gordon > > ------------------------------ From: "Mark Romans" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:33:45 -0800 Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions..... Do what GM does (As well as others) and retard the timing when the trans shifts and when the tcc locks. GM calls it torque management. Mark - -----Original Message----- From: Barry Tisdale To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions..... >Bruce - > >Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/ what you said. Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily transportation, not a race machine. > >As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e., killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up? Might be pretty hard to time accurately, but the clutch would essentially lock under no active engine load; there'd still be the inertia of the converter and a speed mismatch between the engine crankshaft & trans input shaft, but should be a lot easier on all components involved. Probably not worth the effort ITO lower ETs, but would ease the situation, even w/ the factory applied lockup in 4th gear. > >Just a thought - thanks again - Barry > ------------------------------ From: Charles Brooks Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:41:54 -0500 Subject: DFI info Can someone tell me about the DFI batchfire setup? I just saw one advertised and I'd like to get a little more info. Thanks, Charles Brooks ------------------------------ From: Charles Brooks Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:51:36 -0500 Subject: DIY_EFI FTP directory Does anyone have a description of the files in the FTP directory? I don't really want to down load each file just to see what it is :) Charles Brooks ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:12:56 EST Subject: Re: 24000 ppm VSS? In a message dated 99-01-17 00:06:34 EST, ludis@xxx.com writes: >I've come across a PROM which appears to expect a 24000 pulse-per-mile >VSS. Its the ANAM1667 used in the 1227748 ECM. This PROM configures a >VSS interface chip to perform an extra "divide-by-6". Other PROMs for >this ECM set it to "divide-by-1" mode. The ANAM PROM also has an extra >factor of six in the VSS to vehicle speed calculation code (which gets >the VSS signal before the hardware divide). > >Could this PROM be for a reluctor type VSS? I should have kept track of >what type of car it came out of. This could be a prom for somthing equiped with anti lock brakes. Some of the Chevy trucks with rear wheel only anti lock, use the speedo sensor to feed the anti lock and the ECM / speedo. ( Instead of a seperate sensor located on the rear axel houseing.) Harold ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:12:56 EST Subject: Re: 24000 ppm VSS? In a message dated 99-01-17 00:06:34 EST, ludis@xxx.com writes: >I've come across a PROM which appears to expect a 24000 pulse-per-mile >VSS. Its the ANAM1667 used in the 1227748 ECM. This PROM configures a >VSS interface chip to perform an extra "divide-by-6". Other PROMs for >this ECM set it to "divide-by-1" mode. The ANAM PROM also has an extra >factor of six in the VSS to vehicle speed calculation code (which gets >the VSS signal before the hardware divide). > >Could this PROM be for a reluctor type VSS? I should have kept track of >what type of car it came out of. This could be a prom for somthing equiped with anti lock brakes. Some of the Chevy trucks with rear wheel only anti lock, use the speedo sensor to feed the anti lock and the ECM / speedo. ( Instead of a seperate sensor located on the rear axel houseing.) Harold ------------------------------ From: "Thor Johnson" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:15:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Schematic symbol for zero crossing detector > Is there a standard symbol for this? It could be drawn/built with two > comparators but the input would need lots of resistor biasing because > there is no negative power supply. If ya need a circuit for this, how 'bout using the output of a full wave rectifier? - -Thor Johnson thormj@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cosmic.ray@xxx.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:53:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Pingin' Hmmm.... is that why they recommend that you put some motor oil into the gasoline if you intend to run a multifuel (or diesel) engine on gasoline? I remember that the Army "deuce-and-a-half" 2 1/2 ton 6x6 truck had a multifuel engine. Someone said that it has a throttle plate, but I never actually got into one of them. Ray On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:00:05 -0700 bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) writes: >>With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the >intake side) >>the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation. When I repaired the turbo (stopped the >>oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ). I've heard >>that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why? >>Any intelligent answers out there?? >> >>Thanks.... > >Motor oil is generally pretty low octane stuff, and also high cetane, >whichever way you care to talk about it. It is an effective, if not good >diesel fuel, it likes to auto-ignite. A motor oil leak into the turbo >compressor on a (some are turbocharged) GMC two stroke diesel can cause it >to overspeed to destruction--- > >Regards, Greg ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Alain Toussaint Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:47:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Air Volume Calculation > I am assuming roughly 3 litres displacement? Try a throttle body from a > 3 litre to 4 litre engine - possibly a Ford V6 umm....2498cc == 2.5 liters,so in this case it would lack a lot of low end torque if you took a trottle body from a 4 liters engine,try a trottle body from a BMW with the 2.7 engine (particularly the eta engine,they max out at 5300rpm,so it would be a good size,later 2.5 engine trottle body can be used too). Alain Windows 9x: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:07:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Pingin' >Hmmm.... is that why they recommend that you put some motor oil into the >gasoline if you intend to run a multifuel (or diesel) engine on gasoline? > >I remember that the Army "deuce-and-a-half" 2 1/2 ton 6x6 truck had a >multifuel engine. Someone said that it has a throttle plate, but I never >actually got into one of them. > >Ray > First thought is that it would keep the injector pump a whole lot happier--but it darn sure would raise the cetane rating of the gasoline too!! Speaking of multi fuel motors--lemme mention the old Scout 800 short cab I used to have, with a 196 cid four, with the (supposedly) export only pistons and head--6.5 : 1 compression, but a REALLY sweet combustion chamber design--guess it was designed to run on Pemex' (Mexico's) worst!! It's favorite fuel mixture was 70% #2 diesel/ 30% unleaded regular. Ran like STINK on it!! (Kinda always made me wonder how much boost it wouldda stood----!! (On decent fuel!) Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: "Ross Myers" Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:42:50 +1100 Subject: Re: Uploaded BIN to FTP >-----Original Message----- >From: Ross Myers >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:24 PM >Subject: Re: Uploaded BIN to FTP > >Ross I sent you a copy of it last night >Bruce But I uploaded it!!!. Someones lost here. Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:53:32 +0000 Subject: Chyrsler injector head This link describes features of engine. http://www.media.chrysler.com/wwwprkt/25aa.htm wide spray in head injectors that shoot only when valve open. 28% power increase when using coil on plug ignition. dual thermostat pulsed cooling system. block and cylinder mods. alex ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:53:32 +0000 Subject: Re: 555 EFI > Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all > the op-amps and use a PIC and some code? ;) > 8 pin , 5 ch A/D, EEPROM, built in oscillator and power supply. Put one and a MAP on each cyl. alex ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #41 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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