DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 21 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 047 In this issue: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: ECU6 EFI system construction Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths GM 4.3L CPI Complete Manifold F/S Load Questions from a newbee Re: Bosch ecu question Re: Bosch ecu question TPI on a 406 Re: Bosch ecu question Re: Load Questions from a newbee Re: Load Questions from a newbee Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths RE: Mitsubishi VR Problems RE: Load Questions from a newbee RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: TPI on a 406 Re: TPI on a 406 RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths heated O2 sensor circuit question Yet more Aussie GM Bin's Uploaded. Re: FW: Electronic timing advance RE: Electronic timing advance Re: FW: Electronic timing advance See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charles Brooks" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:40:07 EDT Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths >>I think what I'm going to do is buy the FIS PROM for the TPI setup and dump it to study. After I buy a programmable system I'll have the FIS PROM image to start with and fall back on in the event I goof something up. Does that sound like a reasonable line of pursuit, or a cop out?! LoL! << >>What's FIS, and what are you working on?, ecm?. << Bruce, I'll be swapping an 85 TPI system onto a 406. I believe that the ECU is a 780 from what some of the members have posted and mailed me. Fuel Injection Specialties (FIS) is a company in Florida that does quite a bit of custom EFI stuff. They've been very helpfull in planning my project and obtaining advice, part numbers, etc. Charles Brooks ------------------------------ From: "Andrew K. Mattei" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:08:05 -0500 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate.. I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out, and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one injector driver inside the ECM too.) - -Andrew ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:12:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF > I just joined this list a couple days ago so I applogize if this is a > repeat question. I am trying to determine the feasibility of > converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF > system. My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to > the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts). My > questions are: > > 1) Are my assumptions above correct? > > 2) How difficult is this conversion to do? I am an embedded systems > programmer so the software isn't really a problem. What I really > need to know is how complex is the conversion algorithm? Do I > need to add a MAP or a trottle position sensor? > > 3) Are there any books you can recommend for this type of project? > > 4) Is there is good "hobbyist" MAF out there that will fit well to > this engine (3.5l ~6600 RPM ~220 HP). I can deal with voltage or > pulse output. I was thinking of using a sensor from a 5.0 l > Mustang since it would be easy to find a replacement if necessary. > > Thanks. I did a simple intercept box using a PIC16C73 and a op-amp. Used voltage divider to drop 10V vane output to PIC A/D modified voltage in code using RAM interpolation and outputed 10bit PWM to gain 2 intergration amp. Was designed for O2 sensor feedback. There are some Asian kits to eleminate also. alex ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:27:00 -0500 Subject: RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC - -> --Boundary_(ID_/S8U0Iqe/HM7HlfYTbqi1Q) - -> Content-type: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat - -> Content-disposition: attachment; filename=winmail.dat - -> Content-transfer-encoding: base64 - -> - -> eJ8+Ii0XAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS - -> 5NaWNy - -> b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAAM8HAQASABQAKgAAAA - -> EAKAEB - -> A5AGALAGAAAqAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAALACsAAAAAAA - -> MALgAA - -> AAAAAwA2AAAAAAAeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogR00gVFBJIGluIHRoZSA0MDAgU0JDAAAAAg - -> FxAAEA Do you have that in English? ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:29:00 -0500 Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF - -> repeat question. I am trying to determine the feasibility of - -> converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF - -> system. My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to - -> the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts). I had the opportunity to pick through a pallet full of used Bosch and Japanese vane air meters recently. I noticed all of them had much stiffer springs on the vane than I had expected from the descriptions in the service manuals. The meter I pulled off a running Supra was also quite stiff. For part throttle the restriction from the air meter probably isn't an issue, but I'm curious as to how much restriction a normal OEM vane air meter has at wide open throttle. If your BMW is running, how about putting a vacuum guage downstream of the meter and doing a few full-throttle runs with it? Most OEM carb setups will pull two to three inches of mercury at red line at full throttle, in my experience. ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:52:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Andrew K. Mattei wrote: > ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > > > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications > > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate.. > > I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out, > and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are > soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI > 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one > injector driver inside the ECM too.) > Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different drivers. They are using two different timer registers to time the injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are handled differently. Roger ------------------------------ From: thergen@xxx.net Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:10:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors? This would make sense with two separate timers controlling separate drivers. Tom On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Andrew K. Mattei wrote: > > > ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > > > > > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications > > > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate.. > > > > I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out, > > and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are > > soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI > > 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one > > injector driver inside the ECM too.) > > > > Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different > drivers. They are using two different timer registers to time the > injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are > handled differently. > > Roger > ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:35:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 thergen@xxx.net wrote: > Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors? This would make sense with > two separate timers controlling separate drivers. > > Tom > Yes it does. And I guess that would make sense, with one O2 sensor what is the point of not firing them all the same (8 at once). The 93 has an O2 sensor for each bank so fires 4 at a time. Roger ------------------------------ From: Mike Pitts Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:08:47 -0500 Subject: RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths In my '93 4.3L CPI PCM, there are also two drivers, each handled with two separate output compare timers. But, in the case of this calibration, they are fired identically. One driver fires the CPI injector and the other is unused. I am replacing the CPI injector with 6 saturated type injectors. I've thought of using one driver to fire 3 injectors 180 degrees out of phase from the other 3 injectors to lessen the shock on the fuel rail. Would it even matter?? Is this what they call "bank to bank" injection?? Thanks, - -Mike - -----Original Message----- Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different drivers. They are using two different timer registers to time the injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are handled differently. Roger ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:10:20 -0800 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Hi All Gm does many different things..Some ecms like the 165 and the 730 have only one injector driver. Some like the 749 and the 747 have two drivers. Usually though the injectors are grouped into 2 even if one driver is used.. The pcms 94 up have 8 drivers for sequential.. Also in the code is a pwm timer for synch injection and a asynch timer for AE injection. so you will see two calculations for fuel. There are also control bits for selection fire per rev or alternate bank fire every 2nd rev(tbi) gl:peter ------------------------------ From: Al Lipper Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:22:10 -0800 Subject: Re: ECU6 EFI system construction You folks have some good points about using an off-the-shelf processor board rather than re-inventing one. In fact, this is the way the last version of ECU6 was built. The current ECU6 processor board has already been designed and built (I've been using one for over a year now). The reason I didn't stick with an off the shelf unit was 1) It didn't have the flexibility to incorporate things like a Watchdog-timer reset, flash memory and battery-backed RAM in as neat a way as I was looking for (at least not at the right price). I really tried to make it work this way, and eventually gave in to the fact that it really wasn't much tougher to add the CPU and support components than to just build the interface stuff on a PC board. Not to say there isn't a board out there which really will do the trick cheaply, but just a note on my personal experience with it. In either case, any help people can offer is great - especially with programming. Al > >> >> From: Ronald T. Webb < >> To: >> > < >> Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:53 PM >> Subject: Re: ECU6 EFI system construction >> >> Greetings - >> >> This "ECU 6" sounds interesting. 2 suggestions >> >> 1- Before deciding to build our own processor board, look at >> New Micro's >> They have several boards - fully functional - in the $30 to $80 range... >> >> >> 2 - Development software is easiest if not done with the cheap public domain >> stuff - >> My own favorite is Embedded Workbench by IAR . Their C >> development system for the 8751 is like working with the old Turbo >> Pascal. They have a free demo version that's still better than small C. >> >> Just a suggestion. I also would get involved. Hardware or software... >> >> > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:59:03 -0500 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths GM is hard to figure out. The 2.8l and some 3.1l v-6 engines used a double batch fire arrangement, even though there was only one O2 sensor,. Then, the Vortech 4.3 used a single injector with 6 nozzles firing simultaneously, and I think the Vortech smallblock is the same. However, the 7.4l vortech has 8 injectors and IIRC is sequential. I'll bet the 88,89 vintage Caddies were not single batch fire, though. Nor were the 86 GN's. Then they go to extra lengths to redesign a transfer case for a magnesium case because it's 8lbs lighter than aluminum. Ya just gotta wonder sometimes. Shannen diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 thergen@xxx.net wrote: > > > Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors? This would make sense with > > two separate timers controlling separate drivers. > > > > Tom > > > Yes it does. And I guess that would make sense, with one O2 sensor > what is the point of not firing them all the same (8 at once). The > 93 has an O2 sensor for each bank so fires 4 at a time. > > Roger ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:29:36 -0500 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > In my '93 4.3L CPI PCM, there are also two drivers, > each handled with two separate output compare timers. > But, in the case of this calibration, they are fired > identically. > > One driver fires the CPI injector and the other is > unused. I am replacing the CPI injector with 6 > saturated type injectors. > > I've thought of using one driver to fire 3 injectors > 180 degrees out of phase from the other 3 injectors to > lessen the shock on the fuel rail. Would it even matter?? > Is this what they call "bank to bank" injection?? > > Thanks, > -Mike > Double batch fire. Used in 1987 Olds Cutlass Supreme w/ 2.8l, for example. Shannen > -----Original Message----- > Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different > drivers. They are using two different timer registers to time the > injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are > handled differently. > > Roger ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:31:54 -0500 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by bank. Ken Roger Heflin wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 thergen@xxx.net wrote: > > > Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors? This would make sense with > > two separate timers controlling separate drivers. > > > > Tom > > > Yes it does. And I guess that would make sense, with one O2 sensor > what is the point of not firing them all the same (8 at once). The > 93 has an O2 sensor for each bank so fires 4 at a time. > > Roger ------------------------------ From: "Kurek, Larry" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:47:15 -0600 Subject: GM 4.3L CPI Complete Manifold F/S If anyone is interested, I have a complete CPI system out of a 93 4.3L S10 available. It does not come with a harness/ECM, but otherwise includes all of the hard parts. Best Offer. I bought this as a project to update my 87 Astro to CPI, but have since decided on stuffing a 350 in there :) Let me know privately... TTYL! Larry ------------------------------ From: LS Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:08:00 -0500 Subject: Load Questions from a newbee What is this concept of load? I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position, by Air Flow meter. Any idea on the formulas? Sorry if the question I am asking was already addressed. Thanks Len. ------------------------------ From: LS Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:24:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Bosch ecu question I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088 and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T) MCU??? markings DME: iB 57312 8738 MCU??? markings KLR: iB 57391 8721 Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's? Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)? How about AFM to MAF replacement in software? Thanks Len. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel R. Henriksson" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:01:50 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Bosch ecu question According to LS: > I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088 > and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T) > > MCU??? markings DME: > iB 57312 8738 > > MCU??? markings KLR: > iB 57391 8721 > > Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's? > Well, i've done some work on the 0261 200 012 box, it's a first generation Motronic found on turbo Volvos. You can see some of my work at: www.ludd.luth.se:/~rotax/motronic.html I'm currently working on a LH-Jetronic box (0280 000 534), this system comes from a Saab 9000 Turbo. Info about my findings will soon be available at: www.ludd.luth.seL/~rotax/lh-jetronic.html > How about AFM to MAF replacement in software? > Well, i've started to build a converter-box, based on a PIC16C74 processor, nothing finished yet. Do you have a bin file of your Motronic PROM? I might be able to tell what type of CPU your box uses by looking at the code. /Daniel Henriksson ------------------------------ From: Charles Brooks Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:01:05 -0500 Subject: TPI on a 406 OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used toward the end of the year? The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential portions of the harness. Charles Brooks ------------------------------ From: Andre Grandi Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:02:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Bosch ecu question Len, I think its the same as my 1985 745i which is factory turbo. The processor in the DME is a CDP 1802 RCA type. Hard to find much stuff on this 'ol chip any more. I dumped the prom in my dme but have yet to dissasemble it...Let me know what you find.. Later,\ Andre - ---LS wrote: > > I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088 > and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T) > > MCU??? markings DME: > iB 57312 8738 > > MCU??? markings KLR: > iB 57391 8721 > > Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's? > > Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)? > > How about AFM to MAF replacement in software? > > Thanks Len. > == Andre _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:11:23 -0600 Subject: Re: Load Questions from a newbee It's an estimation of the load on the engine. It's not just RPM because you can be at high rpm with little load, like on the highway or revving in neutral. It's also not just throttle position, because you can have WOT without load, like revving in neutral. It's basically airflow divided by RPM. airflow is either measured by MAF, or estimated by MAP. - --steve LS wrote: > > What is this concept of load? > I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position, > by Air Flow meter. > Any idea on the formulas? > > Sorry if the question I am asking was already addressed. > > Thanks Len. ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:46:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Load Questions from a newbee On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, LS wrote: > What is this concept of load? > I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position, As I understand it...for GMs anyway...load on a MAP system is a pressure, measured in kPa by the MAP sensor. Essentially the inverse of vaccuum. Load on a MAF system is in grams/sec as measured by the MAF sensor. Hope that's correct and helpful. Looking at some of the example software for editing tables may give a better idea of how it's used. See the website/ftp site for those. - -greg ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:59:25 -0600 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Ken Kelly wrote: > This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left > bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more > benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by > bank. My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor. Tom ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:27:25 -0800 Subject: RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Tom Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and other systems. In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT. Ward - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Sharpe Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 5:59 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Ken Kelly wrote: > This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left > bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more > benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by > bank. My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor. Tom ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:30:26 -0800 Subject: RE: Mitsubishi VR Problems Nun 1, Check your fuel preesure and or fuel filters. Ward Spoonemore - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Ross Myers Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 12:06 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Mitsubishi VR Problems >Hi > >I have 1997 Mitsubishi VR (4-cyl, 4G63 Injection Engine) that might have a >problem. >After a long time of driving(approx 3-4 Hours) there is some problem >in the engine that the RPM is choppy (like run out of gas) when a normal >driving and this is not always happen, just sometimes occur. I dont know >what is happening at the engine. What is a general solution for this symptom? >and which part should be inspection for checking. > >Thank you > Check the resistance of the stepper motor used for idle (near the throttle body), it's a 6 pin plug, remove it, and measure across the outside top pins. [][][] [][][] You should get about 70 Ohms, same for the bottom row. If any of these are open replace the stepper (This is a VERY common fault with Mits). Even better when the stepper goes short and takes the ECM out with it!!. HTH Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:33:03 -0800 Subject: RE: Load Questions from a newbee MAP is absolute pressure. this is important is you plan to drive up the hill to a lower ambient pressure. KPA is 105 Kpa = 30 In MAP or about 0 in vac. Ward - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx. Parmer Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 4:47 PM To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Load Questions from a newbee On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, LS wrote: > What is this concept of load? > I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position, As I understand it...for GMs anyway...load on a MAP system is a pressure, measured in kPa by the MAP sensor. Essentially the inverse of vaccuum. Load on a MAF system is in grams/sec as measured by the MAF sensor. Hope that's correct and helpful. Looking at some of the example software for editing tables may give a better idea of how it's used. See the website/ftp site for those. - -greg ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:12:48 -0800 Subject: RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Roger Most GM systems change the injection triggering during various phases of operation. Most start out as A - B batch and fire every 12.5 msec, or on every other Distributor Reference Pulse. Some start out in int 12 msec mode and switch to A - B, some never come out of the 12 msec mode. These features are programmable. Some ECM's have programmable saturated drivers or "peak and Hold" and some have variable phasing like spark advance. I tried all of these features and could not tell much difference. Ward - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Roger Heflin Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:52 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Andrew K. Mattei wrote: > ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > > > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications > > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate.. > > I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out, > and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are > soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI > 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one > injector driver inside the ECM too.) > Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different drivers. They are using two different timer registers to time the injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are handled differently. Roger ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:17:38 -0600 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Ward Spoonemore wrote: > Tom > Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's > actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and > other systems. > In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT. > Ward There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or most) of the fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the valve opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H injectors and lotta of pressure. Any ideas or comments (or experiences). Regards Tom ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:17:31 EST Subject: Re: TPI on a 406 In a message dated 1/20/99 7:04:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, cbrooks1@xxx.net writes: > OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out > to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came > out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used > toward the end of the year? Boneyard books show: 1226870 in 85, 1227165 in 86 & 87... HTH's Mike V ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:58:11 -0500 Subject: Re: TPI on a 406 - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Brooks To: DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:12 PM Subject: TPI on a 406 I'd check the pinout real close, the 6870, and 165 both have two connector ecms, and maybe someone threw the 165 inna pile, thinking it was the same thing. I don't know if there is a difference in pinouts, but if the harness doesn't match the pinout for a 165 then that's you answer, there is a 165 pinout at 332 FTP. I've seen mechanical misfits at years ends, but never emissions stuff. Bruce >OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out >to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came >out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used >toward the end of the year? > >The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of >ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential >portions of the harness. > >Charles Brooks > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:04:04 -0800 Subject: RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths One thing that is very inportant to remember about injection CIS vs Batch vs SFI is on cars that have boost it is a problem to deal with lots of boost when all injectors (or a bunch) are opened at the same time. SFI does much better in those situations, as it is easier to deal with the fuel pressure vs boost pressure problems. The ideal system for me that would be very easy to do was a concept that I posted a millenium ago, just do a SFI Batch system (Pat Pend, (c) etc), where they are not in sync to anything, but follow a SFI pattern. No engine sensor or sync is required (read simple) and you get most all of the needed SFI benny's. No fuss no muss. The over-engineering problem has plagued the efi332 project for sometime, and getting something simple running is the way to go! Some rambelings Sandy ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:06:57 -0800 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths I think that injection of all the fuel during a period has some SMOG/Econ bennifits, but can't remember if any power was gained (anyone?). Others have stated that the evaporation of the fuel sitting on the closed valve is better then squirting raw liquid fuel (hard to burn) into a cylinder. I think that is why you don't see much power difference between SFI and BATCH systems. Sandy At 10:17 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote: > > >Ward Spoonemore wrote: > >> Tom >> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's >> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and >> other systems. >> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT. >> Ward > >There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or most) of the >fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the valve >opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H injectors >and lotta of pressure. > >Any ideas or comments (or experiences). Regards Tom > > ------------------------------ From: Ed Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:27:10 -0500 Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question I plan on relocating my O2 sensor further down into the header since the original spot reads off only 2 of the 4 cylinders. Thing is, the original sensor is a single wire, and I think I'd need a heated one for the new location. Any idea how to wire the heater circuit? Is it safe to wire the circuit to a switched (engine on) power source or was the heaer designed to shut off once it reaches operating temp? - -Ed ------------------------------ From: "Ross Myers" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:58:13 +1100 Subject: Yet more Aussie GM Bin's Uploaded. For those who scan Hex files for fun!!! This lot is used in the VR & VS Holden Commodore (1994+). BLCB is for 3.8L V6 Auto (Sorry no Numbers) BLCD is for 3.8L V6 Man (Sorry no Numbers) BLJX6413 is for 5.0L V8 Man BWCS9976 is for Police versions (not sure on trans config, probably V-6 auto). Strange thing, it seems that the BLCB & BWCS don't have a Checksum!!, only the Manual BIN's do $520C at $0006-$0007. I know all these cars have Serial Data security check, gee if anybody finds this disable byte I'll be their best friend ;-) Get them all at the DIY_FTP. Any thoughts on the checksums guys, or should I say lack of?. Regards Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:06:00 +0200 Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance Yes Todd! This is really EXACTLY what I was looking for!!! I believe this device will more than serve my needs in all aspects, e.g. size & volume, adaptability and cost. Thank a lot for the lead! Regards, Aris ---------- From: todd israels To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance Date: 17 January 1999 19:32 At 12:11 PM 1/17/99 +0200, you wrote: >Matt, Bruce & Robert, > >after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I have >now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL >definitely fit the original Magnetti Marell distributor of the Dino >engine and replace the twin contact breakers with an optical pick up. >This most definitely covers adequately the first part of my project, >i.e. replacement of the antiquated distributor points! > >The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance >mechanism, which is easy. > >However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable >ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor >output and the ignition unit. > >Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate >such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or >Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need). > >My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ... >"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard >unit >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16 >sites. >4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few >degrees of detonation induced retard. >5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact >breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit >(already fitted in my car)...." > >Any ideas will be highly appreciated. > >Regards >Aris > ---------- >From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Electronic timing advance >Date: 09 January 1999 23:48 > >Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting >inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem. >I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane >Camshafts, Holley & MSD. > >Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you >mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project >332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to >get involved so deeply! > >Regards > >Aris > ---------- >From: Matt Beaubien >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Electronic timing advance >Date: 08 January 1999 23:28 > >Bruce, > >> >The requirements are relatively simple: >> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up >> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees. >> >> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition. >> >> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism. >> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit >> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least >16 >> >sites. >> >> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units, kits are available from >> Australia, for a DIY. Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just >> use the ignition part of that. If you want to do a total DIY visit >332EFI, >> you can get there off the diy_efi home page. > >The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It >has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It >may >require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though. > >I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope >and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the >Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200. > >Hope that helps. > >Matt. > > > > I came across a device that might suite your purpose but didnt notice boost retard. I have not had a chance to try this yet. try this address: http://www.picnpoke.com/projects/ignition.html I looked in help(Eudora Light) but couldent see how to add this as a link ------------------------------ From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:07:00 +0200 Subject: RE: Electronic timing advance Matt, the secret of a DINO engine always was (and is) tip top ignition, in all aspects of it. The mechanical advance would be adequate but not optimal. Most important, do not forget that what we pursue here is a hobby! Any way, as you will read else where in this thread, I have managed to find what I am looking for with a little help from a friend. Regards Aris ---------- From: Matt Beaubien To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Electronic timing advance Date: 18 January 1999 22:20 > The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance > mechanism, which is easy. Can you just not fix the centrifugal advance and use it with the Crane (formerly Allison) unit? That may be your easiest solution. > My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ... > "... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard > unit > implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16 > sites. > 4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few > degrees of detonation induced retard. > 5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact > breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit > (already fitted in my car)...." Did you check out the Accel 49340 timing computer? I'm not sure it it's compatible with your optical output but you can talk to them and find out. More info can be found at www.mrgasket.com/accelnew.htm. There's not provision for a detonation sensor. They tend to be pretty engine specific but there's a company called J&S that make such a device (I don't know much about it). That's about it. Matt Beaubien mbeaubie@xxx.ca Edmonton, Alberta ------------------------------ From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:06:00 +0200 Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance Thanks for the interest. After a thorough check in Crane´s web site, I perceive CRN-9000-0001 not as a proper timing advance computer, but rather, a device to ADD to a working (presumably mechanical) advance mechanis, giving you the opportunity to further MODIFY it. Best regards ---------- From: mssinc@xxx.net To: aris Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance Date: 17 January 1999 15:20 Saw your post, thought this might be a place to look Look at a Crane CRN-9000-0001 timing control box/rev limiter, if all else fails call/write crane..they are a helpful bunch. At 12:11 PM 1/17/99 +0200, you wrote: >Matt, Bruce & Robert, > >after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I have >now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL >definitely fit the original Magnetti Marell distributor of the Dino >engine and replace the twin contact breakers with an optical pick up. >This most definitely covers adequately the first part of my project, >i.e. replacement of the antiquated distributor points! > >The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance >mechanism, which is easy. > >However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable >ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor >output and the ignition unit. > >Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate >such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or >Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need). > >My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ... >"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard >unit >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16 >sites. >4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few >degrees of detonation induced retard. >5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact >breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit >(already fitted in my car)...." > >Any ideas will be highly appreciated. > >Regards >Aris > ---------- >From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Electronic timing advance >Date: 09 January 1999 23:48 > >Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting >inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem. >I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane >Camshafts, Holley & MSD. > >Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you >mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project >332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to >get involved so deeply! > >Regards > >Aris > ---------- >From: Matt Beaubien >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Electronic timing advance >Date: 08 January 1999 23:28 > >Bruce, > >> >The requirements are relatively simple: >> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up >> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees. >> >> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition. >> >> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism. >> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit >> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least >16 >> >sites. >> >> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units, kits are available from >> Australia, for a DIY. Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just >> use the ignition part of that. If you want to do a total DIY visit >332EFI, >> you can get there off the diy_efi home page. > >The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It >has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It >may >require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though. > >I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope >and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the >Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200. > >Hope that helps. > >Matt. > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #47 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".