DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 27 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 066 In this issue: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear Re: PROMs and Copyrights... Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 RE: Switch Pitch Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 Re: Cubic Dollars Re: Switch Pitch Re: Non list-chasing ghosts. Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 Re: Cubic Dollars Re: VSS Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 3.1 92 Cam 730ecm Honda ident. request Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: Cubic Dollars Project 101 note Re: Honda ident. request Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths Re: Honda ident. request Intake Runner Length Re: Honda ident. request Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Llewellyn2 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:19:35 -0500 Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have been unable to help me. I am trying to build an experimental transmission. It uses an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear. My only requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course). I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets are too small. I was hoping internal and planets from different sets might work, but haven't found a match. I figured that buying some used automatic transmission gears would be the cheapest way to get some quality gears. Any ideas? TIA Dan L ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:57:04 -0700 Subject: Re: PROMs and Copyrights... >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Williams wrote: > >> >> -> Actually, they are not modifying code... >> -> They are modifying look-up tables. There is no copyright or patent >> -> that covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... >> >> US and European copyright law doesn't distinguish between "code" and >> "data." >> > >The real question is could someone buy say 100 books, and modify a >word and resell it? I don't think this would violate copyright, and >under the same conditions buying a computer with the right to run a >given set of code, and adjusting it, should also not be a copyright >violaction. You have right to one copy, you only have 1 copy, you >have just corrected/adjusted a byte. Now if you sold that to others >that did not also have a legal license to run one copy (computer from >someone else other than original prom writer) then you could be in >trouble. > > > Roger Roger, I THINK you are correct, and on the right track. As I said before, what the chip makers are doing and have done is most analogous to what the writer of a system extension or system patch for a computer operating system does--and it is pretty well established and obvious that that kind of work is OK legally, and that it is legally OK to distribute such work to licensed users of the target system for profit. This is NOT a comment on what the EPA or CARB might think of it in re chips for cars, but they are NOT the copyright or patent police. Another point--for those who believe that the chip makers may be operating on wishful thinking--THEY might have been willing to operate on a wish at the beginning, although that is doubtful, given the investment that their principals made in their businesses. But, as they grew, it is EXTREMELY doubtful that their bankers or their bankers' lawyers would have allowed them continue and grow on such a shaky legal basis!! Furthermore, I am not aware of any licensing agreement which buyers of (say) GM cars must execute in order to buy a car new (let alone anything which would be binding on the buyer of a used car) in order to use the car or the software included with/in it. No "not to copy", "not to modify", no nothing. I suspect that you prolly have as much right to copy the ecu and sell functionally similar copies in the aftermarket as you do to copy the pistons, and sell functional copies of them in the aftermarket!! When you buy a car, it, including all of the included software, is yours to use, however you wish. Nothing remotely like what you agree to when buying and using software for your computer. The basis for any such agreement would prolly be further complicated by the fact that title to the car (and included software) usually is vested in the dealer before it goes to the buyer. In fact, the gummint even forces the mfgrs to honor their warranties, despite modifications/non-mfgr parts to/used in a vehicle, unless they can show that a given modification/non mfgr part was the direct cause of the failure for which a warranty repair is being denied!! Writing better software for a vehicle's ecu is legally NO different than it would be for someone to design, build, and sell , say, a more durable bracket for the power steering pump on some vehicle which habitually broke such brackets. I do not believe that the MFGR can go after anyone for software changes any more than they could go after someone for making the bracket match their bolt patterns. The same logic applies to innumerable aftermarket replacement parts. The mfgrs have TRIED to stop aftermarket body parts (sheet metal) mfgrs--and could not do it!! Best they could do was TV ads telling you why you should pay more for their parts! (Of course it was the insurance industry who paid the lawyers on the other side of that fracas, (they were fond of the savings on crash repair claims) so things were evenly matched in terms of who had enough money to pay the legal extortions involved. ) And there is even an element of design originality and brand recognition in body parts!! As warped as our legal system may be, not even GM gets to have things both ways to this degree!! IMHO selling anything as "original equipment" is about the only thing that the mfgrs can stop anyone from doing, no matter whether hardware or software. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:35:34 -0500 Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 The 747 uses two injector drivers, and they fire alternately on every ignition pulse. The applications for 4 cyl TBI I recall are all single head TBI's, so what do you do with the other injector line?. Just leave things dangleing isn't how I see to get it right. I haven't seen an oem application for a 4 cyl 747, and have no idea about what table/sswitches/settings would be needed to change to run it that way. The early S-10s used a 1227165 as a 4 cyl TBI, and with it's single final drive, and it use being correct for what he was doing looked like it would be a more likely doable arrangement.. If you look at 808 they used it as a 4 cyl TPI, but with that there is enough info., that that might be workable, as a TBI. There are all kinds of options but inho some seem more likely to succeed. Personnally I'd probably wind up trying them all, but, I would start with the easiest. Cheers Bruce >ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't >know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go >out and find a 165 ecu. >Ted Stowe To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 >> I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others >> just >> get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just a >> resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while >> cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select >> in >> the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some >> -Carl Summers >> In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, >> nacelp@xxx.net >> writes: >> << Subj: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 >> Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do >> Bruce > >> Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?. >> >> Bruce >> >None.. >> >Mike V ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:23:43 -0700 Subject: RE: Switch Pitch >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote: > >> By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions >> could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of >> infinitely variable position? >> >> I agree with the gent who wold like a variable pitch, locking converter. >> Would be quite handy. >> >The VP convertor as used on TH400s and ST300s is a 3 element convertor >with adjustable stator vane angles. The DynoFlush was a one-speed trans >with a multi-element convertor [cant remember, about 5 elements, IIRC] it >did have a switch pitch feature but it was hydraulically actuated. Not >interchangeable... > IIRC--The DF used a five element converter--pump, turbine, and three stators, do not recall any switch pitch being involved. Again, IIRC, the tranny was 2 forward, 1 reverse, with a LOT of similarities to the Chebby Power Glide. At the beginning, (late '40's) I think the only difference between a Dyna Flow and a Power Glide was the name. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:43:21 -0700 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths >Greg Hermann wrote: > >> Did the rear have a crush sleeve for preload, or positive shims?? The >> latter is a lot harder to do that to, conversions are usually available. > > I never even bothered to pull out the pinion to look. The was like .75" of >play at the driveshaft side of the thing, it made me sick. I figured out why >it all happened now though. > > The previous owner got the VR TH-400 and swapped it in, but the tranny >musta been 1" or more longer than the previous tranny. When I got the car, the >tranny mount wasn't bolted down and the threads were stripped. So I put a bolt >on the other side and bolted the thing down, I didn't even think about it. I >figured the last guy just forgot or something. Soon after my rear end went. >So I guess that the driveshaft would buckle enough at the tailshaft and >u-joints to soften the blow at the pinion. When I bolted it down, it must have >just pounded the poor rear into oblivion. And I thought I was doing myself a >favor by hooking up the mount, damn. > >James Ballenger Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them! The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:05:01 -0500 Subject: Re: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear There are companies with stock gears that may have what you want. Gary Derian >This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have >been unable to help me. > >I am trying to build an experimental transmission. It uses >an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth >on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear. My only >requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly >twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course). > >I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets >of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets >are too small. I was hoping internal and planets from different >sets might work, but haven't found a match. I figured that >buying some used automatic transmission gears would be >the cheapest way to get some quality gears. > >Any ideas? > >TIA > >Dan L ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:22:33 -0500 Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 Bruce Plecan wrote: > > The 747 uses two injector drivers, and they fire alternately on every > ignition pulse. The applications for 4 cyl TBI I recall are all single > head TBI's, so what do you do with the other injector line?. Just > leave things dangleing isn't how I see to get it right. I haven't seen > an oem application for a 4 cyl 747, and have no idea about what > table/sswitches/settings would be needed to change to run it that Old days, same ecm was used in 83 F body 5.0 as in 83 X body with 2.5. Only one injector connector. I agree with starting from a working calibration that's close, rather than trying to modify one that isn't. 4 cyl 747 conversion probably better for someone who enjoys tuning as much as driving. Shannen > way. > The early S-10s used a 1227165 as a 4 cyl TBI, and with it's > single final drive, and it use being correct for what he was doing > looked like it would be a more likely doable arrangement.. > If you look at 808 they used it as a 4 cyl TPI, but with that there is > enough info., that that might be workable, as a TBI. > There are all kinds of options but inho some seem more likely to > succeed. > Personnally I'd probably wind up trying them all, but, I would start with > the easiest. > Cheers > Bruce > > >ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't > >know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go > >out and find a 165 ecu. > >Ted Stowe > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 > >> I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others > >> just > >> get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just > a > >> resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while > >> cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select > >> in > >> the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some > >> -Carl Summers > >> In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > >> nacelp@xxx.net > >> writes: > >> << Subj: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 > >> Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do > >> Bruce > > >> Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?. > >> >> Bruce > >> >None.. > >> >Mike V ------------------------------ From: espace Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:13:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Cubic Dollars Well I for one am really impressed that this group has so many that know something of nullification, and so many that are interested. Far from a normal group of bozos here!:-) As for efi content, anybody here got any evidence of what effect washing down the cylinder walls with fuel has on compression??? I've a rig of questionable background(85300zx turbo) that is varying from 30#-85# and there's 18 hours labor in r&r'ing the heads. I'd really hate to invest this much in the thing(gaskets are probably 300$) just to find that fuel or condensate had caused such. It has only 100k miles on it. ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:25:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Switch Pitch I heard once that the dynaflow lacked torque multiplication, and was very high revving and noisy. If I can remember, I'll try to dig out a manual for it when I get back to my reference library. Greg Hermann wrote: > > >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > > >> By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions > >> could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of > >> infinitely variable position? > >> > >> I agree with the gent who wold like a variable pitch, locking converter. > >> Would be quite handy. > >> > >The VP convertor as used on TH400s and ST300s is a 3 element convertor > >with adjustable stator vane angles. The DynoFlush was a one-speed trans > >with a multi-element convertor [cant remember, about 5 elements, IIRC] it > >did have a switch pitch feature but it was hydraulically actuated. Not > >interchangeable... > > > IIRC--The DF used a five element converter--pump, turbine, and three > stators, do not recall any switch pitch being involved. Again, IIRC, the > tranny was 2 forward, 1 reverse, with a LOT of similarities to the Chebby > Power Glide. At the beginning, (late '40's) I think the only difference > between a Dyna Flow and a Power Glide was the name. > > Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:21:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Non list-chasing ghosts. >My recollection is that Donahue used Toronado CV joints in the ends of the >axle housing to get the negative camber. > >Gary Derian > >> >>(The Javelin in question was the same one that had a solid rear axle with >>about 1-1/2 degrees of negative camber on each rear wheel. This was done by >>means of (I think) a curved spline on the outer end of a full floating axle >>shaft. Pretty cute stuff. No wonder the class got sorta expensive to >>run!!!) :-) >> >>Regards, Greg >> Could well be!!--I never saw it. The looks on a lot of faces when he got caught were pretty funny, tho!! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:44:29 -0600 Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 "Stowe, Ted-SEA" wrote: > > ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't > know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go > out and find a 165 ecu. Thanks to Bruce, the 747 is pretty well laid out on the WWW page. Not so for 165. I'd like to use a 747 on my boat project but since it's 4 cyl I went with something else. - --steve > > Ted Stowe > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:49 AM > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 > > > > I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others > > just > > get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just a > > resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while > > cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select > > in > > the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some > > -Carl Summers > > > > In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > nacelp@xxx.net > > writes: > > > > << Subj: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 > > Date: 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time > > From: nacelp@xxx.net (Bruce Plecan) > > Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > > > > > > > I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do > > Bruce > > > > > > >> Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?. > > >> Bruce > > >None.. > > >Mike V > > > > > > >> ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:51:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Cubic Dollars >Expelled, if you are lucky. > >A lady in Colorado was recently prosecuted because she failed to reveal >her intentions to judge the law as well as the case. She made the mistake >of discussing this opening in jury deliberations. Another juror informed >the judge, and since the judge was interested in writing a book about the >Fully Informed Jury movement, the judge charged her with some sort of >misconduct, and I believe she was convicted. HI-- Yes, this did happen--I live in Steamboat Springs, CO, and it was in the news here at the time. However, you did not read the fine print! What they went after her for was for not informing the court of a possible conflict--not for exercising her rights as a juror. It seems that she was on the jury for a drug case, and she had pled nolo to a very minor drug charge about 20 years previously. The prosecutor tried to claim that she had deliberately concealed the conflict, and had pre-judged the case, but perjured herself by claiming that she had no conflict in judging the case. SHE WAS NOT PROSECUTED FOR KNOWING OR EXERCISING HER RIGHTS AS A JUROR (no matter how much the media and the pols, judges, & lawyers wanted everybody to believe that that was the case!) Whether she got convicted, did a plea bargain, or got acquitted, I do not recall. The BS that the #@$% holes go through to avoid having you know your rights as a juror would make slick proud!! Which makes me realize--mebbe I should remind our two Senators from CO of just how trivial and obscure a perjury offense we in Colorado will prosecute someone for. Perhaps they should weigh the above referenced case during their deliberations on slick's fate!!! Perhaps, to be on the safe side, those of us on this list should plead conflict if ever called to serve as jurors for a speeding ticket trial---- :-) Regards, Greg > > >>>> Raymond C Drouillard 01/26 10:08 PM >>> >Greg, > >That is very interesting. Where can I get documentation on that fact? I >am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than >some of the more interesting interpretations that I have seen. > >The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands >documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the >defendant. That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a >crime that shouldn't exist. > >Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me >excused from the jury. I would need to find a way to keep that from >happening. > >Ray Drouillard > > ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 14:59:36 -0500 Subject: Re: VSS Max wrote (regarding a VSS): >What do you do if you dont have one? Can you put one in a turbo 400? There are many ways to put one in. Myself, I used the same unit that is used with the '747 ECM. This unit is 'driven' from the rear of the speedo. It has a IR LED and phototransister that reflects off a rotating disk at the back of the speedo housing. I made a unit that goes inline of the speedo cable, that has a disk attached, that is black/white striped. The opto unit then just mounts to this. Jags That Run sell 2 and 4 pulse units that go inline. There are units that plug into the tranny that provide the pulses, but you lose the cable to drive your speedo. Magnets on the driveshaft with a pickup, taxi meters, aftermarket cruise controls, it's almost endless. Again, check the archives, toooonnnnns of info... BobR. - -- ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:11:40 -0500 Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747 3.1 92 Cam 730ecm Well, if folks are interested, in a 4 cyl TBI I do have a bin for one (uses the 165), BCC AUXH. Someone, might double check, that. Using Promedit finding the timing fuel tables should be too bad if you follow 101. If it get to the stage to verify temp enable, meaning you found something you think is right, but want to test it on a bench ecm holler. Same offer for the 92 v-6 730 Bruce Stowe, Ted-SEA" wrote: >> ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't >> know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go >> out and find a 165 ecu. >Thanks to Bruce, the 747 is pretty well laid out on the WWW page. Not >so for 165. I'd like to use a 747 on my boat project but since it's 4 >cyl I went with something else. >--steve ------------------------------ From: Mike Pitts Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:28:51 -0500 Subject: Honda ident. request Hello, Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN identification codes for the Honda's which have the "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines? I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from one. Thanks, - -Mike ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:31:33 -0500 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to the pinion. It doesn't take any gear loads. You could remove the crush sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion. Gary Derian > >Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion >flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond >where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too >long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them! > >The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production >situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance >application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive >pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!! > >Regards, Greg > > ------------------------------ From: "JJG" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:39:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Cubic Dollars Robert, I agree with you. Greg, Ray, Me too. I would like the same documentation. Regards, John - -----Original Message----- From: Raymond C Drouillard To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 2:09 AM Subject: Re: Cubic Dollars >Greg, > >That is very interesting. Where can I get documentation on that fact? I >am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than >some of the more interesting interpretations that I have seen. > >The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands >documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the >defendant. That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a >crime that shouldn't exist. > >Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me >excused from the jury. I would need to find a way to keep that from >happening. > >Ray Drouillard > > > >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:39:39 -0700 bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) writes: >>>Scully agrees with that one Mulder. >> >>Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill >>of >>Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER >>AN >>UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!" Jury nullification was an accepted >>part >>of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from >>when >>the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons, >>Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be >>called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers >>to be >>the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of >>government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just >>try >>to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as >>well as >>the facts in any case before them! Think about it!! >> >>Regards, Greg >>> >>> >>>---Robert Harris wrote: >>>> >>>> The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the >>>Manufacturers >>>> boil down to two words - Cubic Dollars. If or when it is >>>perceived by GM et >>>> al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end. GM >>has >>>> historically crushed competition without regard to anything other >>>than it was >>>> good for GM. Count on it. >>>> >>>> Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can >>>you afford >>>> to defend with? Then if you do start to get an edge - how many >>cubic >>>> lobbyist can you afford? GM can and has had the law routinely >>>changed to suit >>>> GM. >>>> >>>> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit >>>windows >>>> flooded the market. Now that it is not - the software police are >>>out in force >>>> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $ >>>prescribed by law >>>> fines levied on individuals to end the practice. Bill Gates can >>and >>>is taking >>>> everything including the house of anyone they catch. >>>> >>>> Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign >>>> contributions. How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials >>>campaigns can >>>> you fatten vs GM. Not fair? - who said GM or life or God was >>fair? >>>> >>>> And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil >>>empire >>>> AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law >>>if it >>>> pleases their masters. Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue >>>where 84 >>>> people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF >>>approved. >>>> >>>> Am I cynical - absolutely. Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT. Do >>>it, enjoy >>>> the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to >>>end the >>>> practice. >>>> >>>> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" >>>> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" >>>> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant >>>> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" >>>> >>>> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore >>>> >>> >>>_________________________________________________________ >>>DO YOU YAHOO!? >>>Get your free @xxx.com >> >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:40:28 -0500 Subject: Project 101 note When doing the 101 stuff early one, things were simple, but in the last few days, I think I better refine some items. All the "stuff" you'll want to change/edit for doing a new calibration, for a 165 or 730 will be between 0000 and 1000. While that is a lot af area, it does narrow it down on the 128K, and 256K chips. Now on the 730's with the 256K proms, you might find what look like 2 timing tables, and two spark tables. That is correct. one being idle, and one being road. The road will apprear as all the tables there are in 101, for timing, and spark. The idle tables generally look rather dumb in nature, ie not many changes, like a whole corner of it might be 20d (an area 5x6).. Also the rpm steps might be 200 rpm so everything is very compressed. If some one has "more" correct accurate names for them please post them. Again, this is for learning the technecs of engine management, and design. Using this information of a vehicle driven on a public road may be illegal. It is the users responsibility to address the legal isssues. Incorrect, improper, poorly informed changing of the ecm's code, tables, switches, settings, can ruin a fine engine very quickly it is again the users responsibility to check matters as he goes. For further details Please read the rest of programming 101/808, and tuning tips at the archives. Bruce ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:01:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Honda ident. request Now there's a question for the archive search engine.... Here's what I found: Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX * This is a UEGO exhaust sensor: * Cost $130ish * Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor.. * Same compensating resistance in the plug too... * The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer .. * Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations as the NTK fax I received .. For heater: orange Vh+ yellow Vh- For Sensor: red Vs+ black Vs- / Ip- white Ip+ - -------------------------- That info used to be in the EFI reference list, but it's not in the current parts list. Probably should be added. - --steve Mike Pitts wrote: > > Hello, > > Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN > identification codes for the Honda's which have the > "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines? > > I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from > one. > > Thanks, > -Mike ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:10:29 -0500 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths >The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing >races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to >the pinion. It doesn't take any gear loads. You could remove the crush >sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion. Ya gotta look close, first off it's helical cut, so the pinion is pushed away from the ring, when loaded. The rear pinion bearing is a fulcrum point for the pinion gear climbing the ring. As the housing twists, and bends everything in it moves around. It can get so bad on say a light 4 cyl car that you add a turbo to, the the wear pattern can't be duplicated with Prussian Blue, before disassembly... Bruce > >Gary Derian > >> >>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion >>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond >>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too >>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them! >> >>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production >>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance >>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive >>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!! >> >>Regards, Greg >> >> > ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:07:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Honda ident. request I think netscape ate my previous reply. What an unadulterated piece of trash it is. Maybe it'll get better when AOL owns it (ha ha ha). Anyway, questions about part numbers and the like are great for the archive search engine. Also you can check in the parts section of the WWW page (although this sensor is not listed...) Here's the answer: Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX * This is a UEGO exhaust sensor: * Cost $130ish * Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor.. * Same compensating resistance in the plug too... * The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer .. * Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations as the NTK fax I received .. For heater: orange Vh+ yellow Vh- For Sensor: red Vs+ black Vs- / Ip- white Ip+ Mike Pitts wrote: > > Hello, > > Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN > identification codes for the Honda's which have the > "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines? > > I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from > one. > > Thanks, > -Mike ------------------------------ From: "Van Setten, Tim (AZ75)" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:13:51 -0700 Subject: Intake Runner Length Hi All. I've been reading your posts here for awhile and learned alot, but now it's time to ask for help. We have been fuel injecting our sand rails here in the southwest now for about 10 years or so. We are using a speed density system and also a dual-fuel setup. We turbo charge our little girlie 2300cc VW's in a 900 lb car and head to the sand dunes. The dual fuel is accomplished by adding a second set of injectors and injecting methanol only under boost. This makes these air-cooled engines very happy and stops all of the pinging problems etc. associated with 15 lbs of boost. Now we are playing around with the drive-ability issues. We want to try different intake manifold combinations. The question is: What size and length should the intake runners be and also what size should the intake plenum be? Bruce Bowling's program addresses the length, but he left out the "diameter" of the runner and I have to believe that it will make a difference on how big it is. Also, the relationship of the plenum, is it sized to the max rpm, or to engine displacement, or what? Any comments would be very helpful. Tim ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:29:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Honda ident. request 92-95 Honda Civic, 1.5L VTEC 5 wire 36531-P07-003. I bought this number, and know it works. It is an NTK, and at least one laboratory grade WR O2 machine uses it but with their own connector. Bruce > >Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX >* This is a UEGO exhaust sensor: >* Cost $130ish >* Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor.. >* Same compensating resistance in the plug too... >* The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from > Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer .. > >* Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations > as the NTK fax I received .. > > For heater: orange Vh+ > yellow Vh- > > For Sensor: red Vs+ > black Vs- / Ip- > white Ip+ > > > >Mike Pitts wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN >> identification codes for the Honda's which have the >> "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines? >> >> I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from >> one. >> >> Thanks, >> -Mike > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:24:54 -0700 Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths >The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing >races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to >the pinion. It doesn't take any gear loads. You could remove the crush >sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion. > >Gary Derian > Yes, you are right that it does not take any gear loads, Gary. But if you put a really impressive torque on the flange nut, you will get excessive pre-load on the bearings. I prefer the concept of pre-stressing the pinion shaft in tension between the two bearing against a solid shim. Plus, if you put any intermittent (stray) axial load against the flange (as this guy did with a too long drive shaft), the sleeve will get loose pretty quickly. Basically, I HATE them, think they a production shortcut, and that their only redeeming social value is cost savings, and that they should be removed at the first opportunity. Most serious racers would agree with my position, I think!! Regards, Greg >> >>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion >>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond >>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too >>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them! >> >>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production >>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance >>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive >>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!! >> >>Regards, Greg >> >> ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #66 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".