DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 29 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 071 In this issue: RE: Love This Re: Looking for injectors Re: Last Holden Bin for a while?. netscape trashing e-mail was Re: Honda ident. request Re: Intake Runner Length RE: Love This A slightly different tact on the "Mod Chip" question RE:EFI Questions RE:EFI Questions RE: Love This Re: accelerometer based dyno ideas Re: More DFI q's... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Weiler Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:57:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Love This Sorry to get in this late but so what? I mean whats the advantage of a one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up? Besides less plumbing. thanks jw On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Barry E. King wrote: > Okay, I'll bite. > > How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return > line to one without? > > > Regards, > > Barry > > > -----Original Message----- > > >Bruce or Greg > > > > > >One of you is going to love this!!!! > > > > > >http://www.mot.com/AECS/General/AIEGSensors/Graphics/IPS.html > > > > > >Get an extra (evaluation unit) and send it to me... Motorola's number is > > >1-800-521-6274. > > > > > >Tom > > > > Hi Tom-- > > > > Neat device--prolly will save a bunch over another industrial type > > transducer. THANKS!! > > > > Regards, Greg > > ------------------------------ From: Fisystems@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:11:23 EST Subject: Re: Looking for injectors In a message dated 1/28/99 6:06:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, Tim.Van.Setten@xxx.com writes: << What kind? Type, brand, flow rate, O-ring, Hose-barb????? >> 24,27,32lb For GM TPI ------------------------------ From: "Ross Myers" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:47:51 +1100 Subject: Re: Last Holden Bin for a while?. >Whatza 082?, meaning what is the whole number? >Thanks >Bruce A 16183082, like an 808 but with faster ALDL. Ross ------------------------------ From: Alain Toussaint Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:04:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: netscape trashing e-mail was Re: Honda ident. request > I think netscape ate my previous reply. What an unadulterated piece of > trash it is. Maybe it'll get better when AOL owns it (ha ha ha). wait untill they release the mail & news portion as OSS (OpenSource Software),the only showstopper preventing them is that they use a comercial database software for storing mail and they can't release THAT source (it's from another company),they are considering using the gnu database lib as replacement,when they do that,i expect a lot of hacker will clean the app (and really shrink the size,can you say communicator 6 delivered on 3 floppy ??). Alain Toussaint Drummondville Quebec,Canada alaint@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Alain Toussaint Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:09:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Intake Runner Length > Stock Car Racing Mag several years ago had an article about them > as I recall. arggg....i think i had it,maybe still do (had to ditch 7 BIG box full of mag some time ago),will check for it,if i don't reply untill monday next week,i don't have it but i'll still let you know. > With a VW head aren't you rather limited in port diameter?. > Bruce > > > Alain Toussaint Drummondville Quebec,Canada alaint@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Alain Toussaint Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:17:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Love This > Sorry to get in this late but so what? I mean whats the advantage of a > one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up? Besides less plumbing. > thanks > jw ummm...maybe crafting a fuel pressure gauge ?? Alain Toussaint Drummondville Quebec,Canada alaint@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: "Thor Johnson" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:50:56 -0500 Subject: A slightly different tact on the "Mod Chip" question Unless someone wants to see all of this, I encourage direct email to me as a way to keep this from polluting the list. I saw the stuff on the Mod Chip question, but was wondering if this is legal: You take the Ford/Chevy/Whathaveyou ECMs from junkyards/older clients (offer a sort of trade-in deal), reprogram the maps & add a few "features", & sell them back into service as "improved" ECM boxes. You would never duplicate the code... only modify what they gave you to add some value for your customers. An analog to this that we are persuing for non-auto purposes is the placement of custom code/logos into computer BIOSes, which seems to be the same to me... but I welcome all opinions on this. TIA, Thor Johnson ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:11:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE:EFI Questions Tried the plug cuts. Looks nice and clean (no detonation) but I already know that its OK on avgas. Plugs are a medium grey, with probably a slight browning of the ceramic tip (NGK BP6S plugs). And yet the car is still running very rich (I think around 0.8-0.9V is rich). So how does a plug look like its OK and yet all other indications are that its rich (got me puzzled) ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp@xxx.net] Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:29 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: EFI questions - -----Original Message----- From: dzorde To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:15 PM Subject: EFI questions When in doubt read the spark plugs. AV can look lean, but the signs of detonation are always present, from what I've seen. Now, I'll fully admit, it's been years since doing much AV gas reading. Try a load of good racing gas if you have trouble reading the AV stuff. And I've got zero time reading australian AV Gas. Pipe coloring is dead in my book. Bruce ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:11:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE:EFI Questions This computer has a manual rpm setting for fuel cut off during decel and I have it turned of. When you use it its like driving on a rev limiter, you can feel when it cuts the fuel off. Probably uses same subroutine as the rev limiter. Brings me back to the original question. Has anyone noticed on a OEM speed density system what happens when you get of the accelerator. My system jumps from a high load band to a light load band (seems logical), however as this lighter load band is using a much smaller pulse width the engine instantly goes very lean when entering this band from a heavy load band. Does this seem right ? What happens in a OEM system ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au - -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen@xxx.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:11 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: EFI questions GM stuff leans out during decel and high rpm/no load. It's not as noticeable in the gas stuff, but the EFI diesels actually seem to shut down during decel. It's one way to help fuel economy. Shannen ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:31:00 -0500 Subject: RE: Love This - -> Sorry to get in this late but so what? I mean whats the advantage of - -> a one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up? Besides less plumbing. GM claims it is less likely to 'vapor lock', or boil the fuel in the injector rails. I always thought flushing the rail with fresh, cool fuel with a recirculating system worked just fine, so their claim might just be PR. ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:51:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: accelerometer based dyno ideas > At 11:07 AM 1/28/99 -0800, Orin Eman wrote: > >> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote: > > > >> >you can get up to speed are rare. If they incorporated the data > >> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05, > > > >Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer > >cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity... > Yeah, sort of. There are a lot of intermediate levels depending on > how many simplifying assumptions you make. If you require the road > to be flat (not necessarily level) and suspension travel to be > effectively nil, you can subtract out the known constant 1g gravity > vector. (This assumes a 2-axis accelerometer, which the adxl202 is.) Sure, assuming a flat level road etc., you only need one axis. With an additional axis, vertical thru the car (a_p), you can measure the angle of the car to the horizontal - it's cos-1(a_p/g) The the force required to overcome gravity is m* g * sin(angle to horizontal). The total force produced by the car is now the above plus m * measured acceleration. All in one - power is: m * v * (forward accel + g * sin(cos-1(vertical accel/g))) That's messy, so I looked at the vector diagram instead and found you can replace the g * sin/cos-1 mess with square_root(g*g - a_p*a_p) > If you try to solve the more realistic problem, and allow nonflat > roads and suspension travel, it gets trickier. For my own amusement > I've tried to see how much of that you could reliably factor out, > but haven't gotten too far. I'll think about that one later, though my guess is the above correction gets most of it... if your sensors are at the center of gravity of the car that is. Actually, the inclination of roads changes fairly slowly, so you could filter out most of the suspension movement on the 'vertical' sensor and just get a reading of the angle to horizontal. > >As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would > >use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from > >another sensor... > If you have the speed, from RPM, VSS or whatever, I guess you could > use that info in combination with the accelerometer info to > compensate for nonlevel (and perhaps nonflat?) roads. I haven't > really thought about this yet. > In any case you still need mass plugged in as a given, right? > To get horsepower rather than acceleration I mean. You always need mass... the formula is m * v * a mass times velocity times acceleration. It comes from force * distance / time. Distance / time is speed. Force from mass * acceleration. All is fine if all the force is used accelerating the car. If some is used to overcome the effect of gravity, that's when we get inaccurate. > >> One thing I was gonna mention is the Analog Devices ADXL202, a > >> second generation, 2 axis +/- 5g accelerometer. It's even easier > > > >I looked at it when it first came out and the specs didn't look > >very good to me. It's bad enough getting .01g resolution out > >of an ADXL05 with any reasonable bandwith and the 202 looked worse > >to me. > I agree that getting a high resolution*bandwidth product out of the > xl05 is not easy, but I don't see how it's any worse for the xl202. > The noise spec is exactly the same for both parts. Maybe if you needed > to use the PWM output on the xl202 that would make it tougher, but > the raw analog signal is easily available too. I'm not trying to > irritate anyone here, maybe there's just something I'm missing? I looked at the PWM signal and couldn't see any reason to use it over the ADXL05 with some filtering and a 10 bit AtoD. I didn't look at the analog output specs for the '02. The '05 output is d*mn noisy looking at the signal on the scope though! I must admit that the Analog packaging options always seem to put the part I want in the most irritating package - the ADXL05 in the silly can and the AD597 either $15 in ceramic dip or $4 in surface mount. I solder surface mount for that difference! Orin. ------------------------------ From: Matt Beaubien Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:01:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: More DFI q's... Stuart, > I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to > compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are > starting from scratch. > I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and > interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. I'll send you the map of this supercharged Ford when everything gets all wrapped up. The full throttle stuff will be ok, as well as some of the lower speed part throttle points, but that's about it as it's mainly a drag car... For those who are following along/interested, we had a interesting dyno session with the 302 Ford tonight. While looking over the Superflow printouts, I noticed that the manifold pressure was given in " Hg, not psi. So, we weren't running 21 psi the other day, it was more like 10 psi. Also, we found an extra 100 HP tonight without really trying. It turns out the blow-off valve was relieving itself, letting out a bunch of the precious air. After correcting the BOV problem, HP hit 800 with 13 psi and 6300 RPM before the BOV relieved again. Torque still hadn't peaked and I've still only corrected glaring errors in the fuel map, and the timing is a conservative 20ish degrees... Wait till the thing is leaned out (EGT's still below 1200), temps balanced through trim (200 degree spread with Hogan sheetmetal manifold), and the spark smartened up... I have a couple of questions still for those familiar with the DFI. While using the lame data logging (15 sec max interval), I had it log the base fuel PW, the additive correction, the multiplicative correction, and the gross PW. The additive and mult correction stayed at zero the entire time (even during TPS transients) but the gross PW varied. Some times it was even less than the base PW. I looked through the maps and couldn't find any that would take away from the base PW so I'm a little confused. Can anyone shed any light? Thanks for everyones help. Matt Beaubien mbeaubie@xxx.ca 3 x 510 1 x 300ZXT Edmonont, Alberta ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #71 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".