DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 29 January 1999 Volume 04 : Number 072 In this issue: Dark Side Update RE: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed) Re: More DFI q's... Re: EFI Questions Re: Knock sensor specs Re: home dyno kit?? RE: Love This RE: Love This Re: Honda ident. request Re: Love This RE: Re: More DFI q's... Re: Knock sensor specs New Turbo from Garrett Re: Knock sensor specs Re: netscape trashing e-mail was Re: Honda ident. request Re: home dyno kit?? Re: More DFI q's... RE: Love This Re: Love This Re: Love This Re: Love This Re: Thermodynamics anybody??? computer in car Re: RE:EFI Questions Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points? RE: Love This Re: Honda ident. request Re: Love This See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:06:28 GMT Subject: Dark Side Update Reviewing some mandatory reading of Dogma provided by the Supreme Grand High Instigator in Arkansaw reveals some interesting insight. The first practical GASOLINE fuel injection was by Mercedes for aircraft engines using direct cylinder injection. Operational in 1939ish. The whoosy port injection system was invented to retain some of the benefits without the expense, and even later yet, Continuous flow systems such as the Hilborn and Bosch CIS were invented to reduce the costs of the then ridiculously overpriced port injection systems. Not quite what the dweebshite pronounce daily in their infinite arrogance. Was it Einstein? "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has bounds" What is interesting to note is that all the early direct injection system injected the fuel thru the side of the BLOCK and directly on to the exhaust valve. Both OHV and OHC - mainly Mercedes. Timing was critical to the extent that all the fuel had to get into the cylinder prior to the injector being blocked by the uprising piston. Now this is going to entail two holes in the block per cylinder for the Dark Side demonic 8 - one for direct injection and one for something else. Better than a hole in the head - saylor? Not having the benefit of having ME-101 Orthodoxy rammed home aurally by some enlightened grad student who has never ran an engine on a dyno, silly me actually believes what the squarehead engineers discovered - that over hundreds of thousands of hours of testing on engines that their comrades lives depended on, optimum power and economy ( both required for a fighter in defense of the homeland ) was developed by using the hot exhaust valve to vaporize the fuel. The same baseline knowledge that went into the much later port injection derivatives - aim the fuel at the back side of the intake valve to keep as much fuel off the port floor as possible. But - hey what did they know - they only invented and perfected fuel injection before most of our daddies were born. So we haff discovered a cheap 8 cylinder desiel injection system and are now proceeding on adapting it to at least one test engine. Will blend some synthetic 2 cycle oil initially to keep pump alive. You haff no ideer of da Konkoctions being considered for the fuel. The initial target engine is a flathead Ford V-8 - a far more recent "modern" design than those antique silly overhead cammers, using the oldest fuel injection method - direct injection And since I despise Gunnerman and actually understand Glassman and Ricardo, there will be a blending chamber ahead of the inlet to the pump and a variable blend of water, fuel and whatnot will get sucked into the pump and squirted into the cylinder at 1500 to 2500 psi. Homogenize that - A-21 bright yellow Pogue Carb Hype Shyte. You might want to read Irwin Glassman's Combustion - third edition to find out what really happens when a homogenized blend of fuel and water is burned. But don't let facts interfere with fantasy. Control of the system will be easy. Drivers foot controls fuel, computer catches up and controls air only. We darksiders know that only two mixture ratio's are "optimum" - pig rich - about .8 lambda and lean misfire - so we don't even care about the air as long as its in between. Another long story. Think stepper motor to move the main air plates about, Ford IAC to feedback and compensate for EGO. More will be revealed. Yes virginia, the dark side is rapidly converging to a working EFI - without dweebish input or consent. And if you are not prejudiced against knowledge, you might want to think about the fact that a carb venturi generates a usable flow signal over about a 900 to 1 range vs most modern EFI ranges of 30 to 1 or so, and that Ford on some of its Indy racer motors used a pressure sensor to measure the pressure drop generated in a venturi to meter the fuel. Reference a ridiculously sensitive Ford one bar Map sensor to air above venturi, other side to vacuum, pressure change corresponds to air flow - blow thru suck thru boost no boost makes nada difference. Light filter on output and would be totally insensitive to any boost, cam, intake air reversion or what ever without even burning up computation or changing sensor. Interested - ask me how someday when I don't feel like all humanity sucks and reeks - probably before I go to work and face the great unwashed retail public. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:33:37 -0600 Subject: RE: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed) In the IL. area a U-Pull-It harness goes for $11 with fuse box add $6 > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Brooks [SMTP:cbrooks1@xxx.net] > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 5:56 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed) > > They must be copyrighted, HahA! :) > > Charles Brooks > > > > > >Around here, for example, *no* yard will sell a wiring harness. Not > >even just before they feed the car to the crusher. Why? Who the hell > >knows, but none of them will budge. > ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 08:51:26 -0500 Subject: Re: More DFI q's... If I'm reading this correctly, it is somewhat being done. Not just well organized. In the DIY_EFI incoming and bin directories there are a bunch of BIN's from mostly OEM systems. I've placed the one from one of my vehicles there and Bruce has placed some of the ones he worked up there also. For the record, I'm for it. I'll have no problem uploading my resulting BIN from my current project. The biggest addition/advantage would be a better document describing the engine/tranny/accessory combo for that BIN. BobR. Stuart wrote: >I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to >compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are >starting from scratch. >I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and >interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. > >ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ????????? > >>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and >>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great >>>help to those building/programming their own systems. >>> >>>Any comments or suggestions? Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>>Matt Beaubien >>>mbeaubie@xxx.ca >>>3 x 510 >>>1 x 300ZXT ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:56:29 EST Subject: Re: EFI Questions Hi Dan, I believe most of the GM stuff shuts off the injectors for "coast down" conditions, but they give a *blip* of max pulse width, once in a while, just to supply some fuel to keep the convertor lit. I was recording dragstrip runs with a diacom, and could not figure out what was causing the injector pulse to spike from zero to 32ms(!) while coasting down at the end of the runs.. At 4000 rpm, that is something like 4 Revolutions of full time injector spray.. I have a speed density 6cyl, where all of the injectors fire together.... I have a graph of a run at the bottom of the page, at http://www.enzoco.com/mike/syclone/monitor.htm It is a tall page, so scroll downward if you are interested.. HTH Mike V In a message dated 1/29/99 3:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, dzorde@xxx.com writes: > Brings me back to the original question. Has anyone noticed on a OEM speed > density system what happens when you get of the accelerator. My system > jumps from a high load band to a light load band (seems logical), however as > this lighter load band is using a much smaller pulse width the engine > instantly goes very lean when entering this band from a heavy load band. > Does this seem right ? What happens in a OEM system ? ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 09:18:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensor specs 15mV AC from the KS seems low, what did you use to measure the output? If a DVM, remember that it averages over a period of time. To trigger your 555, you need to get the signal from the KS filter module. The GN systems have this as a seperate unit that plugs into the ECM harness. Easy to get to. If your system has this, tap into the filter output, which goes low during knock detection. Trigger the 555 though a .01uf cap, with a 10K Ohm pullup on the 555 trigger pin. If your working on a '730 ECM, or another that the filter module is internal, I'm not sure what to tell you. You could either wire in an external filter or tap into the ECM for the knock signal. BobR. Who needs to dust the wood chips and plaster off his cone shaped hat, and get back to the bench to finish the KS filter work... Barry wrote: >Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is. Did some poking around, after putting >together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't work). > >DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an AC voltage of maybe 0.015v >tops on the sensor line. Scan tool reads knocks, but the value presented can be anything from 1 to >255; when it hears a knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock' comes >along. Knock retard degrees always reads zero. > >Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably; even using a comparitor, that's >barely enough signal to pick out of the background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby. > >Are these readings within normal limits?? Helm manual just says "an AC voltage should be present" >(when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems real low. > >Thanks for any feedback - Barry ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:43:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: home dyno kit?? On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mike wrote: > > > >> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote: > > > >> >level ground. At least were I live, level stretches of road where > >> >you can get up to speed are rare. If they incorporated the data > >> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05, > >> >you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level. > > > >Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer > >cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity... > >As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would > >use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from > >another sensor... The calculation (being mass * velocity * acceleration) > >doesn't care whether the acceleration is due to gravity (going > >uphill) or increase in speed. > > > > After reading some of the "audio" ideas recently, I thought about a slightly > different way to do performance calculating, using just the primary ignition > coil signal and the statistics of the car in question. > > Why not hook (say) an HC11 to the coil primary and time period between > edges. If the car is placed in, say, second gear and floored from 1000 to > 7500RPM (my PGT fuel cut), one could use the ignition signal as both an RPM > reference and also as a "delta-RPM" signal to determine how fast the engine > is accelerating. On my PGTs V6, there's 3 pulses per revolution of the > crank...is this enough I wonder? Time to pull out the notebook and start > calculating. > That is mostly what the home dyno kit does. You collect the information off of a spark plug, and then use that to calculate acceleartion based on the rpm changes. The program is setup to record the data as a audio signal and then later process that audio signal on a computer to get the info out. The person who did the home dyno kit is on the f-body list, and did communicate with him some while he was first building the device. Roger ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:47:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: Love This On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Barry E. King wrote: > Okay, I'll bite. > > How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return > line to one without? > > > Regards, > > Barry Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure. So beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the addition A/D input to use for the injector fuel pressure that is to be used in the calculation of injector pulsewidths. Roger ------------------------------ From: "Barry E. King" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:49:16 -0700 Subject: RE: Love This Yeah, saw that. I guess I was more wondering how the plumbing end of it would work. Presumably modulating the fuel pump to achieve a more or less steady target differential pressure is what would be required on the electrical end fo things. Ack. Too many multi-syllabic words for this time of day. Yet another computer function required. Some days I feel like going back to carbs. Regards, Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Bruce > Plecan > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:30 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Love This > > Controlling fuel pump speed/pressure. They give a little more info > next page. > Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:54:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Honda ident. request The Honda Part Number 36531-P07-003 used in the 92-95 VTEC Civics are 5 wire. There are seven pins in the connector, 2 being for a "calibration" resistor. Where is the error here?. Bruce The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which were: 92-95 VX 96-98 HX All LAF sensors are 7 wire. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:17:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Love This - -----Original Message----- From: James Weiler To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM Subject: RE: Love This For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news". It's being able to manipulate fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device. As things sit now for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost. With this device a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible, meaning big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths. Bruce >Sorry to get in this late but so what? I mean whats the advantage of >a one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up? Besides less plumbing. >thanks >jw > ------------------------------ From: Eric Aos Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:56:54 -0800 Subject: RE: Re: More DFI q's... I don't have anything yet (still collecting parts, and knowledge), but I'll contribute when I have something worth looking at. I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are starting from scratch. I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ????????? >>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and >>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great >>>help to those building/programming their own systems. >>> >>>Any comments or suggestions? Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>>Matt Beaubien >>>mbeaubie@xxx.ca >>>3 x 510 >>>1 x 300ZXT ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:31:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Knock sensor specs I missed some of this thread....where can I find the schematic for the knock sensor detector?? Clarence At 06:22 PM 1/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >I built the knock sense detector- it works fine- just hook it to the wire >going into the ECM though... this is a full (rail-rail) logic signal. >Hooking it to the output of the knock sensor will not work. When you look >at the ECM wire you should see a negative pulse when you rap the block. >All the 555 does is stretch it out so it is long enough that you can see it >on an LED or a beeper. > >If you are still having probs... let me know. > >________________________________________________ > Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development > 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv@xxx.com > > > >"Bruce Plecan" on 01/28/99 05:14:13 PM > >Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu > >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >cc: (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM) >Subject: Re: Knock sensor specs > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Barry Tisdale >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:58 PM >Subject: Knock sensor specs > > >>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is. Did some >poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't >work). > >The one off the GN has worked for others,,,,,, What did you use for >trigger?. >> >>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an >AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line. Scan tool reads >knocks, >but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a >knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock' >comes along. Knock retard degrees always reads zero. > >There are degrees of knock retard, and knock counts (0-255) the >knock counts are the number of counts heard in 1/8 of a second. >Some calibrations for some reason just run 0-255 knock counts, and >repeat that continually. >Bruce >> >>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably; >even >using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the >background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby. >> >>Are these readings within normal limits?? Helm manual just says "an AC >voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems >real low. >> >>Thanks for any feedback - Barry >> > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:01:11 -0600 Subject: New Turbo from Garrett Hi all, I just got this info from another list, has anybody heard about this? "I just read about a new turbo system in Automotive Industries magazine. Allied Signal Turbocharging (AKA Garrett) has just announced an oil-driven turbo. It is called the HydroCharger, and permits a blower speed independent of engine speed. It is intended for diesels, but adaptable to anything. It offers 'supercharger-like low end response and excellent packaging'. The drive motor is about half the size of the exhaust-driven turbine and is direct-coupled to the impeller. They also are working on a 'dry' tirbo using air bearings." Clarence ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:07:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensor specs - -----Original Message----- From: Clarence Wood To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Knock sensor specs The circuit involved here is for monitoring the ESC Modules input to the ecm, it's at the Turbo Buick GN-Ttype site in the Tech area. Bruce > I missed some of this thread....where can I find the schematic for the knock sensor detector?? >Clarence >>I built the knock sense detector- it works fine- just hook it to the wire >>going into the ECM though... this is a full (rail-rail) logic signal. >>Hooking it to the output of the knock sensor will not work. When you look >>at the ECM wire you should see a negative pulse when you rap the block. >>All the 555 does is stretch it out so it is long enough that you can see it >>on an LED or a beeper. >>If you are still having probs... let me know. Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development kv@xxx.com >>>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is. Did some >>poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't >>work). >>The one off the GN has worked for others,,,,,, What did you use for >>trigger?. >>>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an >>AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line. Scan tool reads >>knocks, >>but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a >>knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock' >>comes along. Knock retard degrees always reads zero. >>There are degrees of knock retard, and knock counts (0-255) the >>knock counts are the number of counts heard in 1/8 of a second. >>Some calibrations for some reason just run 0-255 knock counts, and >>repeat that continually. >>Bruce >>>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably; >>even >>using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the >>background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby. >>>Are these readings within normal limits?? Helm manual just says "an AC >>voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems >>real low. >>>Thanks for any feedback - Barry ------------------------------ From: James Ballenger Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:14:48 -0500 Subject: Re: netscape trashing e-mail was Re: Honda ident. request Alain Toussaint wrote: > wait untill they release the mail & news portion as OSS (OpenSource > Software),the only showstopper preventing them is that they use a > comercial database software for storing mail and they can't release THAT > source (it's from another company),they are considering using the gnu > database lib as replacement,when they do that,i expect a lot of hacker > will clean the app (and really shrink the size,can you say communicator 6 > delivered on 3 floppy ??). The next version 5.0 is supposed to be around 5mb down from 14.5 mb. James Ballenger ------------------------------ From: trinity@xxx.net (Mike) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:25:37 -0500 Subject: Re: home dyno kit?? > >That is mostly what the home dyno kit does. You collect the >information off of a spark plug, and then use that to calculate >acceleartion based on the rpm changes. The program is setup to record >the data as a audio signal and then later process that audio signal on >a computer to get the info out. > That'll teach me to read (more accurately "peruse") only a few posts on a thread then post a follow-up... Still, I'd have thought that doing this measurement in the "digital" domain with a timer resolution of 500nS or better would produce better results than in the audio domain with the associated noise and distortion etc. After looking at the web page though I see the results look pretty good though so things can't be that bad in audio-land. Neat. - -- Mike ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:25:14 -0600 Subject: Re: More DFI q's... rauscher@xxx.com wrote: > > If I'm reading this correctly, it is somewhat being done. Not just well > organized. In the DIY_EFI incoming and bin directories there are a > bunch of BIN's from mostly OEM systems. I've placed the one from > one of my vehicles there and Bruce has placed some of the ones he > worked up there also. > > For the record, I'm for it. I'll have no problem uploading my resulting > BIN from my current project. > > The biggest addition/advantage would be a better document describing > the engine/tranny/accessory combo for that BIN. > > BobR. Bob - you are correct. There are lots of bins in the incoming directory. Periodically I go thru, figure out what they are, add them to the ftp site index list, and move them to the bins directory. There is also an section of the page for OEM systems and parts, currently GM has a lot of info but there's not much for anything else. Stuart's idea is good, but I'd like to keep it all on the DIY_EFI server rather than another. - --steve ------------------------------ From: Chris Conlon Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:42:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Love This First let me say I'm really glad to hear about this. My possibly-vapor lock problem came back yesterday (twas a bit warm), and since it mostly seems to happen when the gas is real low (thus hotter), I had sometimes wondered about a no-return fuel system. So I am definitely loving this. I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock? I think it could go either way depending, but a smallish amount of fuel being recirculated thru a hot rail has got to get pretty warm. I would think the pulsation damper would be even more critical, maybe even something like a small pressurized resevoir would be needed? Does anyone know if the actual no-return systems have some such thing? I didn't see any actual part numbers or prices though. Do I have to order these in GM-size lots? Eek. At 08:47 AM 1/29/99 -0600, Roger Heflin wrote: >Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the >computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that >pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure. So >beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer >adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the > ... You could also manage this one with simple analog stuff. Get an appropriate switching power supply or chip, and use it to drive the fuel pump. Use the pressure transducer output to feed the power supply reference input, such that it runs the pump more or less to maintain the fuel pressure you want. Soooper easy. You could even get Bruce's variable fuel pressure scheme with a tiny bit more work. Add a reference voltage (from somewhere) representing the desired fuel pressure. Put thru a comparator with the transducer output. When the FP is too high, charge an integrator; when the FP is too low, discharge it. Use the integrator output as reference input to the power supply. (A bit of RC filtering may be needed too, depending.) Which reminds me, I have a simple circuit that I think will work ok for the whole 555 EFI idea. (No 555's though, sorry.) But I have no good way to get it to the world. Is there some freeware that'll let me enter a simple schematic and end up with a .gif or something? I suppose I could dig up a paint program if there's nothing else going. Chris C. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:16:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Love This - -----Original Message----- From: Chris Conlon To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:00 PM Subject: RE: Love This Send it snail mail to me and I can scan it. If not too good, I'll get it posted, hehehehe.. Oh, OK I'll get it posted anyway, geeez Bruce snip >Which reminds me, I have a simple circuit that I think will work ok >for the whole 555 EFI idea. (No 555's though, sorry.) But I have no >good way to get it to the world. Is there some freeware that'll let >me enter a simple schematic and end up with a .gif or something? I >suppose I could dig up a paint program if there's nothing else going. > Chris C. ------------------------------ From: "David Cooley" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:27:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Love This Chrysler uses a returnless system on the Neon and others... There system isn't anything special, it just has a standard FP regulator mounted to the pump assembly in the tank and the "return" is just open to the inside of the tank. Basically they relocated the FP reg from the rail to the pump. Later, Dave - -----Original Message----- From: Chris Conlon To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 12:52 PM Subject: RE: Love This > >First let me say I'm really glad to hear about this. My possibly-vapor >lock problem came back yesterday (twas a bit warm), and since it mostly >seems to happen when the gas is real low (thus hotter), I had sometimes >wondered about a no-return fuel system. So I am definitely loving this. > >I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap >emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock? I think it could go either >way depending, but a smallish amount of fuel being recirculated thru >a hot rail has got to get pretty warm. > >I would think the pulsation damper would bee even more critical, maybe >even something like a small pressurized resevoir would be needed? Does >anyone know if the actual no-return systems have some such thing? > >I didn't see any actual part numbers or prices though. Do I have to >order these in GM-size lots? Eek. > > >At 08:47 AM 1/29/99 -0600, Roger Heflin wrote: > >>Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the >>computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that >>pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure. So >>beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer >>adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the >> ... > >You could also manage this one with simple analog stuff. Get an >appropriate switching power supply or chip, and use it to drive the >fuel pump. Use the pressure transducer output to feed the power >supply reference input, such that it runs the pump more or less to >maintain the fuel pressure you want. Soooper easy. > >You could even get Bruce's variable fuel pressure scheme with a tiny >bit more work. Add a reference voltage (from somewhere) representing >the desired fuel pressure. Put thru a comparator with the transducer >output. When the FP is too high, charge an integrator; when the FP >is too low, discharge it. Use the integrator output as reference >input to the power supply. (A bit of RC filtering may be needed too, >depending.) > > >Which reminds me, I have a simple circuit that I think will work ok >for the whole 555 EFI idea. (No 555's though, sorry.) But I have no >good way to get it to the world. Is there some freeware that'll let >me enter a simple schematic and end up with a .gif or something? I >suppose I could dig up a paint program if there's nothing else going. > > Chris C. > > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:42:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Love This Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the part referenced here? http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114-6151 How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc? It just seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed, instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting regulated pressure. It seems so simple, and no one does it, that there must be a "catch". Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Weiler > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM > Subject: RE: Love This > > For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news". It's being able to > manipulate > fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device. As things sit now > for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost. With this > device > a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible, > meaning > big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths. > Bruce > > >Sorry to get in this late but so what? I mean whats the advantage of >a > one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up? Besides less plumbing. > >thanks > >jw > > ------------------------------ From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:12:46 EST Subject: Re: Thermodynamics anybody??? I just want to mention some experience I have had with water to air intertcoolers......DO NOT use a radiator, the air blasting across the fins makes them "walk" and break off in a short time and then go through your engine.......You should use a sandwiched wafer style and you can make one yourself(if you can weld or have a shop make one)...anyway my 2 cents - -Carl Summers In a message dated 1/28/99 2:15:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, talltom@xxx.com writes: << Subj: Thermodynamics anybody??? Date: 1/28/99 2:15:07 AM Pacific Standard Time From: talltom@xxx.com (espace) Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu My books are long gone, along with my brain,(pass the cone shaped hat) and I'm curious if anybody here has done much work with intercooler design. I've got a 3 liter engine that I'm considering building an intercooler system fer, and if anybody's got any numbers about intercooler requirements I'd like to take a look. The way I see it, I could use a heater core or a/c evaporator for the hot side, and some sort of radiator on the cool side. I'm looking fer heat load caused by say 30psi intake pressure at 7k rpm, and corrolating that to optimal collector and diffuser sizes. I've got a Audi radiator with a elec fan on it that would work for a diffuser, but seems like overkill and is heavy, empty. They alos use an auxiliary radiator that's about 50% bigger in area than a heater core(and a lot thinner) that would be ideal if it's enough to do it. So allright guys, here's your chance to show off... prove me dumb... >> ------------------------------ From: Alain Toussaint Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:21:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: computer in car Hello diy'ers, i found a great discussion on slashdot.org relating to crafting computer to go in a car,lot of great info,here's the url: go to http://slashdot.org/ ( http://www.slashdot.org/ work too) click on the "Ask Slashdot: How do you build a PC for the car?" link there you are,if you'd like to receive all the comment in one page,there is a link for the flat mode. Alain Toussaint Drummondville Quebec,Canada alaint@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:32:47 -0500 Subject: Re: RE:EFI Questions - -----Original Message----- From: dzorde To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:23 AM Subject: RE:EFI Questions >Tried the plug cuts. Looks nice and clean (no detonation) but I already >know that its OK on avgas. Plugs are a medium grey, with probably a slight >browning of the ceramic tip (NGK BP6S plugs). And yet the car is still >running very rich (I think around 0.8-0.9V is rich). So how does a plug >look like its OK and yet all other indications are that its rich (got me >puzzled) ? Depending on the grayness, you might be running too much timing too rich. The gray is a sign of a sooty flame, meaning excess fuel, running extra timing makes the motor seem like it's pulling better. What for cooling temp ya running?. Remember, I'm an ocean away and can't see you plugs, and just trying to work off of what your reporting. Bruce > >Dan dzorde@xxx.au > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp@xxx.net] >Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:29 PM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: EFI questions > > >-----Original Message----- >From: dzorde >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:15 PM >Subject: EFI questions > >When in doubt read the spark plugs. AV can look lean, but the signs of >detonation are always present, from what I've seen. Now, I'll fully admit, >it's been years since doing much AV gas reading. Try a load of good >racing gas if you have trouble reading the AV stuff. And I've got zero >time reading australian AV Gas. > Pipe coloring is dead in my book. >Bruce > > ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:46:46 EST Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points? Hi all, I have some old tractors/trucks and such that I would like to convert to electronic IG. Mostly because since they are limited use, the plugs tend to carbon foul. I would like to keep the points intact and just wire up the module and realated parts. I could convert the dist to a pick up coil and such but would rather not. I'm thinking of a high ohm resistor from 12 V to the points. Then tap the + pickup coil input on the IG module to the points. I would rather use somthing common like a GM 4 pin/ Chrysler 5 pin/ or a Ford Duraspark. The Ford 3 pin dist mounted TFI looks good as well. Thanks for the help. ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:01:28 -0700 Subject: RE: Love This >> >I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap >emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock? DO NOT let mfgr BS about less evap emissions get confused with getting the vapor bubbles out of the fuel rails!!! Greg I think it could go either >way depending, but a smallish amount of fuel being recirculated thru >a hot rail has got to get pretty warm. > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:01:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Honda ident. request >The Honda Part Number 36531-P07-003 used in the 92-95 VTEC >Civics are 5 wire. There are seven pins in the connector, 2 being >for a "calibration" resistor. > Where is the error here?. >Bruce Do not believe there is one, Bruce. Regards, Greg > >The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which >were: >92-95 VX >96-98 HX >All LAF sensors are 7 wire. ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:01:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Love This >Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the >part referenced here? >http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114-6151 > > How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc? It just >seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed, >instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting >regulated pressure. It seems so simple, and no one does it, that >there must be a "catch". > >Shannen By now you prolly read my post on the subject. If you're doing nothing else, put a #$%ing float vent on the high point of the rails. This will cure vapor in the rails INSTANTLY!! And pump control in combo with a good PR WILL give more accurate control. Variable pumping WILL work alone, but not as well as in combo with a regulator (set up with pri/sec control). But if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!! Regards, Greg >Bruce Plecan wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: James Weiler >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM >> Subject: RE: Love This >> >> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news". It's being able to >> manipulate >> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device. As things sit now >> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost. With this >> device >> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible, >> meaning >> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths. >> Bruce >> >> >Sorry to get in this late but so what? I mean whats the advantage of >a >> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up? Besides less plumbing. >> >thanks >> >jw >> > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #72 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".