DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 1 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 082 In this issue: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) injector flow injector flow Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Re: Different Strokes Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) wanted corvette transmission VE calculations from torque graph and manifold pressure. Re: Smooth strategy) Re: Wide Range EGO See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:30:11 -0800 Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Thank-you. Where could I find more information regarding the "Field SFC-VTEC" controller? Walt. - -----Original Message----- From: Wen Yen Chan To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 7:06 AM Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >Hello, > >Checkout the Field SFC-VTEC controller. In addition to allowing you to >change the VTEC cut-over point it allows some adjustments (the transfer >function can be a non linear function of engine speed and map) to >be made to the fuel curves. > >On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Walter Sherwin >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >> Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 9:13 PM >> Subject: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >> >> This idea, just universally raises the entire table. Seldon is what is >> needed. >> Playing with the coolant temp/MAT, and MAP signals all do the same thing. >> There ain't no short cuts, reprogramming done right, takes time. >> Bruce >> >> >> >Sounds like there is a lot of pent up UEGO talent out there. Here is an >> >idea for a product that about half of us could really use right now (I'd >> >buy two if I could find such an animal). Picture >> >this........................................................you are working >> >on a GM style MAP based system, that is to be converted to artificial >> >aspiration. Perhaps it was originally artificially aspirated, or perhaps >> it >> >was not. Once the basic control "system" is in place, you and I are still >> >faced with the challenge of remappping the open loop VE tables. Remapping >> >the VE's can be done labouriously, through data logging, and post hex >> >editing. >> > >> >What about a control box which would take a UEGO signal, and perform an >> >appropriate transform equation, and then export the resultant signal to an >> >output port which one could connect to the O2 sensor pin of an OEM MAP >> >computer. The goal would be to make an artificial setpoint (say 11.5:1 >> >A/F ratio) appear to the OEM computer as stoich. If this were possible, >> >then one could use the OEM computer to generate BLM's and iteratively (read >> >this as safely) reach the perfect "MAP" while driving, or while on a >> chassis >> >dyno. Imagine, in one afternoon, you could do the work of several days. >> >This would even help the normally aspirated guys. >> > >> >Just food for thought. If anyone comes up with one of these (or knows >> where >> >I can find one) then let me know, please. >> > >> > >> > >> >Thanks; >> >Walt. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Bruce Plecan >> >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 9:39 PM >> >Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >> > >> > >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: Raymond C Drouillard >> >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:39 PM >> >>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >> >> >> >>Gee, sounds so easy. Hmm, care to whip up a ION?. >> >>I certainly hope you weren't making light of Steve's work. >> >>Bruce >> >> >> >> >> >>>I would buy one. Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design >> >>>before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself. The >> >>>circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated. In its most basic form, >> >>>it is a single op-amp and a few discretes. Add a few more components for >> >>>a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when it's >> >>>not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it. >> >>> >> >>>Ray Drouillard >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski >> >>>writes: >> >>>>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many >> >>>>would >> >>>>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a >> >>>>wide O2 meter. >> >>>> >> >>>>Steve >> >>>> >> >>>>Mike Pitts wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Any interest? Is this a waste of bandwidth? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier >> >>>>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit >> >>>>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional >> >>>>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable >> >>>>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to >> >>>>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually >> >>>>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier >> >>>>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is >> >>>>accomplished >> >>>>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these >> >>>>> offset quantities from the processed signal. " >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -Mike >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>___________________________________________________________________ >> >>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> >>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >> >>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> >>> >> >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------ From: "Gwyn Reedy" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:53 -0500 Subject: RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Take a WWII tank or a 40's Chrysler product with 'fluid drive' and you have a fluid coupling with a standard transmission. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida mailto:mgr@xxx.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Greg > Hermann > Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:19 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) > > > >Shannen Durphey wrote: > >> > >> If you have any chances to roll around some of the car shows with well > >> restored examples from the early 40's to late 50's, you'll see that > >> the upper scale cars were designed to be very smooth. In the > >> transmissions, there were vacuum powered clutches, variable speed > >> transmissions, standard trans with torque converters. Even > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >Oooh!, the magic words. I was just about to ask about this. Can > >anyone give me some info or point me to a source about torque convertors > >and how exactly they work. Are these tightly interdependant on an > >automatic trans (because of the fluid used) or could they possibly be > >used independantly? I.e., adapted for use on a manual trans. > > > >Forgetting for the moment about the specific machiningg, > adapters, etc that > >would be required to physically hook it up, is it possible or feasible > >to make it work outside of an automatic trans? Is it's hydraulic fluid > >supply sealed inside the convertor? Could you fill the convertor and > >seal it and expect it to work for very long or does it need a continuous > >flow of fluid for cooling? If so, would pressure need to be modulated > >for any reason or does it just need a continuous flow? > > > >thanks for any info > >--Dan > > Don't recall whatinell they called it, but for a while Porsche > used a fluid > coupling AND a vacuum operated clutch (which was triggered by a > microswitch > on the manual shift lever) in front of a manual tranny in the 911's. The > fluid coupling ran in engine oil, IIRC. (A fluid coupling does > not multiply > torque, has only two elements, called pump and turbine.) > > Easiest way to think of how one works (at least for me) is to think of a > centrifugal pump driving a centrifugal turbine--and then eliminate the two > housings, and all the attendant weight and inefficiencies, by > just wrapping > the impeller and turbine wheels into a taurus shape, and mounting > them face > to face. > > Regards, Greg > > ------------------------------ From: "Espen Hilde" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:09:41 +0100 Subject: injector flow Check out this injector flow carts from Auto speed newsletter: http://www.autospeed.com/A_0102/P_1/article.html Espen ------------------------------ From: "Espen Hilde" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:09:41 +0100 Subject: injector flow Check out this injector flow carts from Auto speed newsletter: http://www.autospeed.com/A_0102/P_1/article.html Espen ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:57:24 -0500 Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) - -----Original Message----- From: Walter Sherwin To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 7:08 PM Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) This cal with everything turned off would be the first trick. The only systems I have a clue about are gm so I speaking specifically about them. If your serious about even trying then I suggest you look at a aussie 808 since it uses the least code, and has room to write on the existing bin.. Would seem to me, just using a piggy back devise using the EGOR would be the ticket. Just use a Stamp/Pic and monitor the O2. Reverse engineering a prom to disable it is alot of work, and I've been warned that deleting to much can cause "routine" problems. One thing I think would work is using a series of 555s for fuel, and the oem box for timing. Bruce >Not quite Bruce. Picture the following "Remapping" >procedure............................... > >Create a cal which defeats all of the A/F modifiers such as AE, EGR, ECT, >etc. Also, disable open loop PE enrichment so that the computer stays in >closed loop under all conditions. Basically, you would now have a VE driven >cal, with closed loop correction capability. But, instead of "learning" >towards stoich, the system would learn towards a safe setpoint (of say >11.5:1) defined by the electronic gizmo I had proposed. You could never >map a turbo/supercharged car to stoich, but 11.5 should be safe under most >conditions. > >Warm the engine, and verify that it is indeed in closed loop. Attach the >little gizmo and drive the vehicle. As you drive, the computer will iterate >towards a set of BLM's. Stop every once in awhile, and check that you have >covered all of the BLM cells and perhaps even massage some of the raw VE >tables in order to help speed up the process. When you are done, you will >have a VE map of correct "shape", but incorrect "magnitude". > >When you are happy with the BLM learning exercise, then you must shift the >new VE map to reflect stoich rather than the atrificial setpoint. This is >just a ratiometric number crunching exercise that is easily handled in >something like Exel, or Lotus, with data parsing. > >After the "new" map has been dumped into the cal, restore the A/F modifiers >and PE function, and PRESTO, you would have a pretty good baseline cal that >you can begin to fine tune. This is similar to the procedure that I use for >remapping my MAP based projects, but that elusive little electronic gizmo >would make my life a lot easier and would eliminate a lot of iterative data >manipulation. > >Any thoughts, suggestions, recommendations? Again, build a wide band A/F >meter that can emulate a zirconia oxygen sensor, and accommodate a user >setpoint, and much of the world could be at your doorstep. > > > >Walt. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Plecan >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:16 AM >Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Walter Sherwin >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >>Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 9:13 PM >>Subject: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >> >>This idea, just universally raises the entire table. Seldon is what is >>needed. >>Playing with the coolant temp/MAT, and MAP signals all do the same thing. >>There ain't no short cuts, reprogramming done right, takes time. >>Bruce >> >> >>>Sounds like there is a lot of pent up UEGO talent out there. Here is an >>>idea for a product that about half of us could really use right now (I'd >>>buy two if I could find such an animal). Picture >>>this........................................................you are >working >>>on a GM style MAP based system, that is to be converted to artificial >>>aspiration. Perhaps it was originally artificially aspirated, or perhaps >>it >>>was not. Once the basic control "system" is in place, you and I are >still >>>faced with the challenge of remappping the open loop VE tables. >Remapping >>>the VE's can be done labouriously, through data logging, and post hex >>>editing. >>> >>>What about a control box which would take a UEGO signal, and perform an >>>appropriate transform equation, and then export the resultant signal to an >>>output port which one could connect to the O2 sensor pin of an OEM MAP >>>computer. The goal would be to make an artificial setpoint (say 11.5:1 >>>A/F ratio) appear to the OEM computer as stoich. If this were possible, >>>then one could use the OEM computer to generate BLM's and iteratively >(read >>>this as safely) reach the perfect "MAP" while driving, or while on a >>chassis >>>dyno. Imagine, in one afternoon, you could do the work of several days. >>>This would even help the normally aspirated guys. >>> >>>Just food for thought. If anyone comes up with one of these (or knows >>where >>>I can find one) then let me know, please. >>> >>> >>> >>>Thanks; >>>Walt. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Bruce Plecan >>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >>>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 9:39 PM >>>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >>> >>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Raymond C Drouillard >>>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >>>>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:39 PM >>>>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >>>> >>>>Gee, sounds so easy. Hmm, care to whip up a ION?. >>>>I certainly hope you weren't making light of Steve's work. >>>>Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>>>I would buy one. Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design >>>>>before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself. The >>>>>circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated. In its most basic form, >>>>>it is a single op-amp and a few discretes. Add a few more components >for >>>>>a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when >it's >>>>>not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it. >>>>> >>>>>Ray Drouillard >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski >>>>>writes: >>>>>>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many >>>>>>would >>>>>>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a >>>>>>wide O2 meter. >>>>>> >>>>>>Steve >>>>>> >>>>>>Mike Pitts wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Any interest? Is this a waste of bandwidth? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier >>>>>>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit >>>>>>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional >>>>>>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable >>>>>>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to >>>>>>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually >>>>>>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier >>>>>>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is >>>>>>accomplished >>>>>>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these >>>>>>> offset quantities from the processed signal. " >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>___________________________________________________________________ >>>>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>>>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>>>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:00:35 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Greg Hermann wrote: > > >Shannen Durphey wrote: > >> > >> If you have any chances to roll around some of the car shows with well > >> restored examples from the early 40's to late 50's, you'll see that > >> the upper scale cars were designed to be very smooth. In the > >> transmissions, there were vacuum powered clutches, variable speed > >> transmissions, standard trans with torque converters. Even > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >Oooh!, the magic words. I was just about to ask about this. Can > >anyone give me some info or point me to a source about torque convertors > >and how exactly they work. Are these tightly interdependant on an > >automatic trans (because of the fluid used) or could they possibly be > >used independantly? I.e., adapted for use on a manual trans. > > > >Forgetting for the moment about the specific machiningg, adapters, etc that > >would be required to physically hook it up, is it possible or feasible > >to make it work outside of an automatic trans? Is it's hydraulic fluid > >supply sealed inside the convertor? Could you fill the convertor and > >seal it and expect it to work for very long or does it need a continuous > >flow of fluid for cooling? If so, would pressure need to be modulated > >for any reason or does it just need a continuous flow? > > > >thanks for any info > >--Dan > > Don't recall whatinell they called it, but for a while Porsche used a fluid > coupling AND a vacuum operated clutch (which was triggered by a microswitch > on the manual shift lever) in front of a manual tranny in the 911's. The > fluid coupling ran in engine oil, IIRC. (A fluid coupling does not multiply > torque, has only two elements, called pump and turbine.) > > Easiest way to think of how one works (at least for me) is to think of a > centrifugal pump driving a centrifugal turbine--and then eliminate the two > housings, and all the attendant weight and inefficiencies, by just wrapping > the impeller and turbine wheels into a taurus shape, and mounting them face > to face. > > Regards, Greg 1952 Dodge or Chrysler had TC+Manual. In order to engage gears or shift you used the clutch, but once you were in gear, you didn't have to press the clutch again. Pretty fragile, so say those in the know. Legendary Tucker had torque converter at either rear wheel. Big difference between torque converter and fluid coupling is the addition of the stator, which redirects fluid from the "turbine" above back to the "pump" in the direction of pump rotation, multiplying the effective torque of the engine. Don't know many details about the Chrysler setup,(just some old stories) but auto trans' TC gets fluid from the transmission, and when there's a heavy load applied, there's a lot of heat generation going on there. Lotsa mechanics have seen overheated TCs that have become discolored. Those designs need sufficient cooling. Vegas had holes in the trans housing and a fan spot welded to the converter to circulate air. I'm looking at a reference book called "Automatic Transmissions", by John C White, ISBN# 0-8273-2606-8, which has good torque converter info. There are past issues of "Cars and Parts" which discuss the old Dodge transmissions pretty heavily, although there seem to be a few variations on that one. The reverse of this is a clutched automatic, which for racing would be fully manual. Shannen ------------------------------ From: Stuart Bunning Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:39:07 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) This sounds GREAT. In my situation I am about to start my car for the first time with EFI. I have used a stop watch and timed how long my car idled with just the fuel in the fuel bowl of the carby until it stalled. I then measured the fuel capacity of the fuel bowl in the carby. I have removed the carby and installed the TBI and now (havn't done this yet) are going to keep altering the VE table until the base pulse width for the injectors will supply the same amount of fuel as my carby did at idle over the same time period. Hopefully I will be able to start the car and it will idle. The problem is if I change RPM or load of the engine ( touch the trottle ) I would instantly go lean. If I was to set the entire VE map the same maybe your approach will enable to use BLM numbers to adjust the rest of my map. Comments and criticism is appreciated.... >Create a cal which defeats all of the A/F modifiers such as AE, EGR, ECT, >etc. Also, disable open loop PE enrichment so that the computer stays in >closed loop under all conditions. Basically, you would now have a VE driven >cal, with closed loop correction capability. But, instead of "learning" >towards stoich, the system would learn towards a safe setpoint (of say >11.5:1) defined by the electronic gizmo I had proposed. You could never >map a turbo/supercharged car to stoich, but 11.5 should be safe under most >conditions. Best Regards, STUART BUNNING SALES ENGINEER KENELEC PTY LTD 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132 AUSTRALIA PHONE: 61 3 9873 1022 FAX: 61 3 9873 0200 EMAIL: stuart@xxx.au WEB: http://www.kenelec.com.au/ ------------------------------ From: Todd Israels Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:06:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Different Strokes At 10:44 PM 1/31/99 -0600, you wrote: > > >David Sagers wrote: > >> In a conversation with the machine shop this afternoon the engine builder said I should consider going with a shorter stroke. I can build a 4" stroke 434 ci, a 3.75" 406 ci, or a 3.48" stroke 355 ci engine. The block I have is already clearanced for the 4" stroke so the additional cost of preparing the block isn't a factor. I already own the 4" crank and rods, and the crank can be traded out for a shorter stroke without any additional cost. > >The SBC needs longer rods. The local 434 alcohol motors turn 7500+ and make 675+ HP w/ a 4BBL and a Donovan aluminum block. The longer stroke motors are hard on blocks and cranks, stock blocks won't last at all in a 432. 410s are now the rage. I have also seen a 355 (400 block 327 crank) at 11000 rpm. 383s, and 377s. Mine is a 6" rod 406. Turbo motors need extremely strong bottom ends. IMHO, the 432 will break the block a 6000 rpm w/ 15 lbs boost, >and the crank will be gone too. Go with the 406 or smaller. just another $.02 Tom > > > Just another thought on this subject I would think traction and driveability at lower RPM would be important. I would have the car run as normal untill about 2000RPM then wake up and go like crazy to 5000RPM or so. This will give good driveability in traffic and such and still run strong. This is the aproch I am using for my project A V8 Fiero. I wont be using a turbo but plan to use EFI to make a V8 run good off its cam and light up when I need (want) it. I drove a 355 Fiero and it started to drizzle, we could hardly leave a light or turn a corner without the rear breaking losse. The owner rarely drives the car and says he liked the original 350 2Barrel from a pickup better than the 355 monster it became. Just a thought on what will make the better street car. Good Luck with your project. Todd Israels ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:31:57 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) d houlton x0710 wrote: > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > If you have any chances to roll around some of the car shows with well > > restored examples from the early 40's to late 50's, you'll see that > > the upper scale cars were designed to be very smooth. In the > > transmissions, there were vacuum powered clutches, variable speed > > transmissions, standard trans with torque converters. Even > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Oooh!, the magic words. I was just about to ask about this. Can > anyone give me some info or point me to a source about torque convertors > and how exactly they work. Are these tightly interdependant on an > automatic trans (because of the fluid used) or could they possibly be > used independantly? I.e., adapted for use on a manual trans. > > Forgetting for the moment about the specific machiningg, adapters, etc that > would be required to physically hook it up, is it possible or feasible > to make it work outside of an automatic trans? Is it's hydraulic fluid > supply sealed inside the convertor? Could you fill the convertor and > seal it and expect it to work for very long or does it need a continuous > flow of fluid for cooling? If so, would pressure need to be modulated > for any reason or does it just need a continuous flow? > > thanks for any info > --Dan Actually, the manual trans used a fluid coupling, not a torque convrerter. Hy-Drive was one example, on the plymouth. The fluid coupling is a 2 element design and does NOT amplify torque. This was used on the original Powerglide and Hydramatic as well. Also called a torus, the fluid coupling is basically two fans - one blowing at the other. Using oil instead of air, and enclosing them in a housing increases the effisiency - just a little bit. A split "guide ring" in some models reduced the turbulence, helping efficiency a bit more. The dual coupling hydramatic used two of these couplings, one large and one small - which also acted as clutches for the automatic by running one full and one empty.On later Hydramatics, there was a third member added to the torus, called a multiplier. In these fluid couplings, the vanes were basically straight, except fotr the bultiplier which had vanes at a 45 degree angle. This was ALMOST a torque converter. The torque converter is a fluid coupling, with curved blades. The blades meet like the treads on a tractor tire so the oil thrown off the drive turbine(pump or impeller) gets caught in a "bucket" on the load turbine. Efficiency is much higher with a torque converter. Very few torque converters were two element, as the "stator", analogous to the multiplier, was so much more effective with the curved blades. Instead of the oil coming off the turbine trying to slow down the impeller, it is redirected to the turbine, giving off more of it's energy the second time round. The ford-o-matic was one of the first to use a three member TQ, along with later Powerglides,torque-flytes and cruise-o-matics.. Lockup TQs are nothing new - Studebaker used a 4 member TQ in the late 50s or early sixties with a direct drive clutch.The Dynaflow used a 4 member TQ - or twin turbine converter.Early PowerFlytes were also 4 unit. Some of these used a variable pitch turbine. The early Powerglide and Turboglide used 5 member converters - two pumps, two stators, and one turbine. Just a "short" history and description of the Torque converter. ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:34:46 -0800 Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Curious...........how do you "Remap" a GM MAP based system at CSH Central? Walt. - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:33 PM Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) > >-----Original Message----- >From: Walter Sherwin >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 7:08 PM >Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) > >This cal with everything turned off would be the first trick. >The only systems I have a clue about are gm so I speaking specifically about >them. >If your serious about even trying then I suggest you look at a >aussie 808 since it uses the least code, and has room to >write on the existing bin.. > >Would seem to me, just using a piggy back devise using the EGOR >would be the ticket. Just use a Stamp/Pic and monitor the O2. >Reverse engineering a prom to disable it is alot of work, and I've >been warned that deleting to much can cause "routine" problems. >One thing I think would work is using a series of 555s for fuel, >and the oem box for timing. >Bruce > > >>Not quite Bruce. Picture the following "Remapping" >>procedure............................... >> >>Create a cal which defeats all of the A/F modifiers such as AE, EGR, ECT, >>etc. Also, disable open loop PE enrichment so that the computer stays in >>closed loop under all conditions. Basically, you would now have a VE >driven >>cal, with closed loop correction capability. But, instead of "learning" >>towards stoich, the system would learn towards a safe setpoint (of say >>11.5:1) defined by the electronic gizmo I had proposed. You could never >>map a turbo/supercharged car to stoich, but 11.5 should be safe under most >>conditions. >> >>Warm the engine, and verify that it is indeed in closed loop. Attach the >>little gizmo and drive the vehicle. As you drive, the computer will >iterate >>towards a set of BLM's. Stop every once in awhile, and check that you have >>covered all of the BLM cells and perhaps even massage some of the raw VE >>tables in order to help speed up the process. When you are done, you will >>have a VE map of correct "shape", but incorrect "magnitude". >> >>When you are happy with the BLM learning exercise, then you must shift the >>new VE map to reflect stoich rather than the atrificial setpoint. This is >>just a ratiometric number crunching exercise that is easily handled in >>something like Exel, or Lotus, with data parsing. >> >>After the "new" map has been dumped into the cal, restore the A/F >modifiers >>and PE function, and PRESTO, you would have a pretty good baseline cal that >>you can begin to fine tune. This is similar to the procedure that I use >for >>remapping my MAP based projects, but that elusive little electronic gizmo >>would make my life a lot easier and would eliminate a lot of iterative data >>manipulation. >> >>Any thoughts, suggestions, recommendations? Again, build a wide band A/F >>meter that can emulate a zirconia oxygen sensor, and accommodate a user >>setpoint, and much of the world could be at your doorstep. >> >> >> >>Walt. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Bruce Plecan >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >>Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:16 AM >>Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >> >> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Walter Sherwin >>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >>>Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 9:13 PM >>>Subject: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >>> >>>This idea, just universally raises the entire table. Seldon is what is >>>needed. >>>Playing with the coolant temp/MAT, and MAP signals all do the same thing. >>>There ain't no short cuts, reprogramming done right, takes time. >>>Bruce >>> >>> >>>>Sounds like there is a lot of pent up UEGO talent out there. Here is an >>>>idea for a product that about half of us could really use right now (I'd >>>>buy two if I could find such an animal). Picture >>>>this........................................................you are >>working >>>>on a GM style MAP based system, that is to be converted to artificial >>>>aspiration. Perhaps it was originally artificially aspirated, or perhaps >>>it >>>>was not. Once the basic control "system" is in place, you and I are >>still >>>>faced with the challenge of remappping the open loop VE tables. >>Remapping >>>>the VE's can be done labouriously, through data logging, and post hex >>>>editing. >>>> >>>>What about a control box which would take a UEGO signal, and perform an >>>>appropriate transform equation, and then export the resultant signal to >an >>>>output port which one could connect to the O2 sensor pin of an OEM MAP >>>>computer. The goal would be to make an artificial setpoint (say 11.5:1 >>>>A/F ratio) appear to the OEM computer as stoich. If this were possible, >>>>then one could use the OEM computer to generate BLM's and iteratively >>(read >>>>this as safely) reach the perfect "MAP" while driving, or while on a >>>chassis >>>>dyno. Imagine, in one afternoon, you could do the work of several days. >>>>This would even help the normally aspirated guys. >>>> >>>>Just food for thought. If anyone comes up with one of these (or knows >>>where >>>>I can find one) then let me know, please. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks; >>>>Walt. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Bruce Plecan >>>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >>>>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 9:39 PM >>>>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Raymond C Drouillard >>>>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >>>>>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:39 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >>>>> >>>>>Gee, sounds so easy. Hmm, care to whip up a ION?. >>>>>I certainly hope you weren't making light of Steve's work. >>>>>Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I would buy one. Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design >>>>>>before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself. The >>>>>>circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated. In its most basic >form, >>>>>>it is a single op-amp and a few discretes. Add a few more components >>for >>>>>>a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when >>it's >>>>>>not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ray Drouillard >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski >>>>>>writes: >>>>>>>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many >>>>>>>would >>>>>>>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a >>>>>>>wide O2 meter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Mike Pitts wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Any interest? Is this a waste of bandwidth? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier >>>>>>>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit >>>>>>>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional >>>>>>>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable >>>>>>>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to >>>>>>>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually >>>>>>>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier >>>>>>>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is >>>>>>>accomplished >>>>>>>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these >>>>>>>> offset quantities from the processed signal. " >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>___________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>>>>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>>>>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------ From: WATCHmeDRV@xxx.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:34:11 EST Subject: wanted corvette transmission I am looking for super T10 parts or the complete trans. It's a 4+3 for a corvette. If anyone can help me with some parts or a complete trans that you might have laying around, It would sure help me out. My # is 706-547-0052, if no answer please leave a message. Thanks, DETROIT AMERSON ------------------------------ From: Stuart Bunning Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:50:53 +1000 (EST) Subject: VE calculations from torque graph and manifold pressure. Given the fact that I have a DYNO torque curve of a motor over it entire RPM range for WOT I should be able to convert torque to VE as they are essently the same thing. I would first assume for arguement sake my moter is 100% efficient at max torque to simplify calculations and tweek it later. With the above results I should be able to build one column in my VE map in my 808 ECU. Would it be possible to somehow via math's calculations to work out (roughly) The VE numbers for all other load conditions. For example if at 3000RPM I have maximum torque at WOT 100% efficient could I assume that at 50KPA it would we only 50% efficient,25KPA 25% etc... Will this work ( for atleast a means to build a CRUDE!!! VE map so I can atleast start and drive the car slowly???) I am starting from scratch generation a VE as the motor I have put EFI on never had it from the factory so I don't have a factory MEMCAL to tweek... Best Regards, STUART BUNNING SALES ENGINEER KENELEC PTY LTD 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132 AUSTRALIA PHONE: 61 3 9873 1022 FAX: 61 3 9873 0200 EMAIL: stuart@xxx.au WEB: http://www.kenelec.com.au/ ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:43:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Smooth strategy) On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:53 -0500 "Gwyn Reedy" writes: >Take a WWII tank or a 40's Chrysler product with 'fluid drive' and you have >a fluid coupling with a standard transmission. > >Gwyn Reedy >Brandon, Florida >mailto:mgr@xxx.com Mercedes also uses it in their Unimog 4X4 and 6X6 trucks. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:52:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Wide Range EGO I have been wanting one of those gizmos for a long time, too. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to develop one, although I have done enough design work on it to know what it will look like. I would much rather have a tested circuit or, better yet, a PC board. Garfield had gotten one working and was in the middle of testing it when he was flamed off the board. Too bad... lots of people really wanted that circuit. Now, it would appear that a few people are trying it again. I wish them success, and hope that they get some return for their effort. Ray Drouillard On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:18:59 GMT bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) writes: >Ray, others - if the parts are about 20 bucks cept the UEGO and a board first >off - small quantity -is about 50 bucks - I'll take up a collection and write >you a check for several as soon as you are ready. Don't forget to include in >the price pizza and a bucket of beer. > >Hell, all most of want is to: >A: Understand the technology - we think its neat (dating myself) >B: Use the technology for our thangs >C: Acquire it without domestic budget consent > >Please don't misunderstand if some of us are very curious. Saying its doable >affects some of us like showing up with a truck load of girl scout cookies at >a dirty old man in raincoats convention. We NEED need need need want want >want pant pant oh oh oh - who's yor daddeeeeeee!!!!! one. > >A quick consensus says 0 - 5 volts output - fine for meters etc > >O to 1 with Stoic about .5 makes it almost a drop in. > >And the adjustable crossing point - pleeeeze. And hopefully electronically >setable so a stamp can control it. > >Most of us just want one, and if it turns into a viable commercial opportunity >for you, more power, just as long as C above applies. > >Thanking you in advance for your none look up the patent - it will only be >available to those willing to Monica the developer attitude and approach. > >1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" >1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" >1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant >1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" > >Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #82 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".