DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 2 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 083 In this issue: pulse widths and ve questions Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Chevy ECMs Re: pulse widths and ve questions RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: PWM driver Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: Smooth strategy) RE: pulse widths and ve questions Re: More UEGO stuff Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Re: More UEGO stuff Re: Chevy ECMs See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:00:00 -0500 Subject: pulse widths and ve questions Anyone out there with some real numbers as to pulse width range on port injected engines? Need to know real life idle vs full throttle numbers. Also, any idea what the VE of an average engine is at idle? enquiring mind wants to know. I know the theory behind it - just need some real numbers and I don't have a scanner to get them with. TIA ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:11:14 -0500 Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) - -----Original Message----- From: Walter Sherwin To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 10:50 PM Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) If you down load the Tunetip (both parts) from FTP 332, I explain it all. Bruce >Curious...........how do you "Remap" a GM MAP based system at CSH Central? > >Walt. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Plecan >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:33 PM >Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Walter Sherwin >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >>Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 7:08 PM >>Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >> >>This cal with everything turned off would be the first trick. >>The only systems I have a clue about are gm so I speaking specifically >about >>them. >>If your serious about even trying then I suggest you look at a >>aussie 808 since it uses the least code, and has room to >>write on the existing bin.. >> >>Would seem to me, just using a piggy back devise using the EGOR >>would be the ticket. Just use a Stamp/Pic and monitor the O2. >>Reverse engineering a prom to disable it is alot of work, and I've >>been warned that deleting to much can cause "routine" problems. >>One thing I think would work is using a series of 555s for fuel, >>and the oem box for timing. >>Bruce >> >> >>>Not quite Bruce. Picture the following "Remapping" >>>procedure............................... >>> >>>Create a cal which defeats all of the A/F modifiers such as AE, EGR, ECT, >>>etc. Also, disable open loop PE enrichment so that the computer stays in >>>closed loop under all conditions. Basically, you would now have a VE >>driven >>>cal, with closed loop correction capability. But, instead of "learning" >>>towards stoich, the system would learn towards a safe setpoint (of say >>>11.5:1) defined by the electronic gizmo I had proposed. You could never >>>map a turbo/supercharged car to stoich, but 11.5 should be safe under most >>>conditions. >>> >>>Warm the engine, and verify that it is indeed in closed loop. Attach the >>>little gizmo and drive the vehicle. As you drive, the computer will >>iterate >>>towards a set of BLM's. Stop every once in awhile, and check that you >have >>>covered all of the BLM cells and perhaps even massage some of the raw VE >>>tables in order to help speed up the process. When you are done, you will >>>have a VE map of correct "shape", but incorrect "magnitude". >>> >>>When you are happy with the BLM learning exercise, then you must shift >the >>>new VE map to reflect stoich rather than the atrificial setpoint. This is >>>just a ratiometric number crunching exercise that is easily handled in >>>something like Exel, or Lotus, with data parsing. >>> >>>After the "new" map has been dumped into the cal, restore the A/F >>modifiers >>>and PE function, and PRESTO, you would have a pretty good baseline cal >that >>>you can begin to fine tune. This is similar to the procedure that I use >>for >>>remapping my MAP based projects, but that elusive little electronic gizmo >>>would make my life a lot easier and would eliminate a lot of iterative >data >>>manipulation. >>> >>>Any thoughts, suggestions, recommendations? Again, build a wide band >A/F >>>meter that can emulate a zirconia oxygen sensor, and accommodate a user >>>setpoint, and much of the world could be at your doorstep. >>> >>> >>> >>>Walt. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Bruce Plecan >>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >>>Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:16 AM >>>Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >>> >>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Walter Sherwin >>>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >>>>Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 9:13 PM >>>>Subject: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) >>>> >>>>This idea, just universally raises the entire table. Seldon is what is >>>>needed. >>>>Playing with the coolant temp/MAT, and MAP signals all do the same thing. >>>>There ain't no short cuts, reprogramming done right, takes time. >>>>Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>>>Sounds like there is a lot of pent up UEGO talent out there. Here is an >>>>>idea for a product that about half of us could really use right now >(I'd >>>>>buy two if I could find such an animal). Picture >>>>>this........................................................you are >>>working >>>>>on a GM style MAP based system, that is to be converted to artificial >>>>>aspiration. Perhaps it was originally artificially aspirated, or >perhaps >>>>it >>>>>was not. Once the basic control "system" is in place, you and I are >>>still >>>>>faced with the challenge of remappping the open loop VE tables. >>>Remapping >>>>>the VE's can be done labouriously, through data logging, and post hex >>>>>editing. >>>>> >>>>>What about a control box which would take a UEGO signal, and perform an >>>>>appropriate transform equation, and then export the resultant signal to >>an >>>>>output port which one could connect to the O2 sensor pin of an OEM MAP >>>>>computer. The goal would be to make an artificial setpoint (say >11.5:1 >>>>>A/F ratio) appear to the OEM computer as stoich. If this were possible, >>>>>then one could use the OEM computer to generate BLM's and iteratively >>>(read >>>>>this as safely) reach the perfect "MAP" while driving, or while on a >>>>chassis >>>>>dyno. Imagine, in one afternoon, you could do the work of several days. >>>>>This would even help the normally aspirated guys. >>>>> >>>>>Just food for thought. If anyone comes up with one of these (or knows >>>>where >>>>>I can find one) then let me know, please. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Thanks; >>>>>Walt. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Bruce Plecan >>>>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >>>>>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 9:39 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: Raymond C Drouillard >>>>>>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >>>>>>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:39 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >>>>>> >>>>>>Gee, sounds so easy. Hmm, care to whip up a ION?. >>>>>>I certainly hope you weren't making light of Steve's work. >>>>>>Bruce >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I would buy one. Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design >>>>>>>before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself. The >>>>>>>circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated. In its most basic >>form, >>>>>>>it is a single op-amp and a few discretes. Add a few more components >>>for >>>>>>>a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when >>>it's >>>>>>>not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ray Drouillard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski >>>>>>>writes: >>>>>>>>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many >>>>>>>>would >>>>>>>>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a >>>>>>>>wide O2 meter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Steve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Mike Pitts wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Any interest? Is this a waste of bandwidth? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier >>>>>>>>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit >>>>>>>>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional >>>>>>>>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable >>>>>>>>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to >>>>>>>>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually >>>>>>>>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier >>>>>>>>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is >>>>>>>>accomplished >>>>>>>>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these >>>>>>>>> offset quantities from the processed signal. " >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>___________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>>>>>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>>>>>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------ From: "Curtis Mittong" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:35:58 -0500 Subject: Chevy ECMs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4E3B.9E9ED940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a 96 Impala SS with an LT1. I also have a bare LT1 block that I plan to bore and stroke to 409. I already know about all of the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but wondered how much HP will the stock PCM handle with reprogramming and about #52 injectors? Will I be able to do it? If not, what PCM should I use? Curtis - ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4E3B.9E9ED940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a 96 Impala SS with an = LT1.  I also=20 have a bare LT1 block that I plan to bore and stroke to 409.  I = already=20 know about all of the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but wondered how = much HP=20 will the stock PCM handle with reprogramming and about #52 = injectors?  Will=20 I be able to do it?  If not, what PCM should I use?
 
Curtis
- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4E3B.9E9ED940-- ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:43:44 -0500 Subject: Re: pulse widths and ve questions - -----Original Message----- From: Clarence L.Snyder To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:17 PM Subject: pulse widths and ve questions >Anyone out there with some real numbers as to pulse width range on port >injected engines? Need to know real life idle vs full throttle numbers. Idle 1.7-2.5msec., WOT 3,000rpm 11ish 6,000 8.5msec Any TPS/MAP accleration enrichment 100% duty cycle possible. THESE NUMBERS ARE VERY GENERALIZED. They happen to be common among several calibrations I've looked at, your results may vary. Bruce >Also, any idea what the VE of an average engine is at idle? >enquiring mind wants to know. >I know the theory behind it - just need some real numbers and I don't >have a scanner to get them with. >TIA > ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:47:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote: > Take a WWII tank... More info on this, please. ------------------------------ From: thergen@xxx.net Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: PWM driver Interesting article at http://www.penton.com/ed/Pages/magpages/jan1199/ifd/0111id.htm that has a blurb on a pwm DC motor control. It's not directly applicable, but it does go into detail on its intended application. There's also a simple circuit do generate 23v if you want to do a high side driver for your pwm at http://www.penton.com/ed/Pages/magpages/oct1298/pease/1012bp.htm figure 2. Tom On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 rauscher@xxx.com wrote: > > > I can throw together a circuit to do this. I've used PWM for DC motor > control circuits before. How about a low side driver, it would be easier > to do. (This is a switch that grounds the motor). > > For input control, just an analog 0-12V for stopped to full on, with > all speeds in-between. > > I'll get it together and scanned hopefully before the week is out. > > Oh, do fuel pumps really draw 15 Amps? Ouch. > > One word of caution thou, PWM is electrically noisy. You will want to > put the controller close to the pump, as not to disrupt every electrical > device in your car. > > BobR. > > > > > > Tom Sharpe wrote: > > >How do you PWM a 15 amp load??? Someone design a circuit please. Can the driver > >board be mase to work?? > > > >TIA TOM > > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:57:38 -0600 Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Walter Sherwin wrote: > Not quite Bruce. Picture the following "Remapping" > procedure............................... > > Create a cal which defeats all of the A/F modifiers such as AE, EGR, ECT, > etc. Also, disable open loop PE enrichment so that the computer stays in > closed loop under all conditions. Basically, you would now have a VE driven > cal, with closed loop correction capability. But, instead of "learning" > towards stoich, the system would learn towards a safe setpoint (of say > 11.5:1) defined by the electronic gizmo I had proposed. > >> If we are learning, let's learn 11.5:1 < 10" vacuum (MAP???) stoich at 15"+ vacuum (could learn lean burn also) and a straight line between them. Come up with "standard" correction factors for H20 (warm up) and Air Temp and you're done. It's not really that simple, but close..... Tom ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:01:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Lotsa mechanics have seen overheated TCs that have become > discolored. Used to see many mopar high stall TCs in copcars with the reman paint burnt off in the center, like a donut hole... > Don't know many details about the Chrysler setup,(just some old > stories) but auto trans' TC gets fluid from the transmission, and when > there's a heavy load applied, there's a lot of heat generation going > on there. > Dodge transmissions pretty heavily, although there seem to be a few > variations on that one. > Yes, they played lotsa games with the idea. Some of the convertors were filled and sealed, then they gave that one up. Some were tied into the engine oil system rather than the trans. Some used a 4 speed trans that was full synchro and/or slickshifted. They even had some that were used with hemi V8s. Great for turning gasoline into hot oil ;-) ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:02:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Smooth strategy) >On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:53 -0500 "Gwyn Reedy" writes: >>Take a WWII tank or a 40's Chrysler product with 'fluid drive' and you >have >>a fluid coupling with a standard transmission. >> >>Gwyn Reedy >>Brandon, Florida >>mailto:mgr@xxx.com Early four speed Hydra Matics (up to '56) (Also the boxes which got B&M hydro started, and which were made famous by folks like Big John Mazmanian & his Hemi-Willys coupe in the old A-Gas NHRA class) used a two element fluid coupling, which only carried about 45% of the torque in the top two gears. The post '56 four speed H-M units had a second, smaller fluid coupling as well as the main one. Forget exactly what it did. Greg > >Mercedes also uses it in their Unimog 4X4 and 6X6 trucks. > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:15:28 -0800 Subject: RE: pulse widths and ve questions Pulse width's typically range from 800 usec to 18-19 msec. Ward - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Clarence L.Snyder Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 8:00 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: pulse widths and ve questions Anyone out there with some real numbers as to pulse width range on port injected engines? Need to know real life idle vs full throttle numbers. Also, any idea what the VE of an average engine is at idle? enquiring mind wants to know. I know the theory behind it - just need some real numbers and I don't have a scanner to get them with. TIA ------------------------------ From: "Ross Myers" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:37:48 +1100 Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff >Hi all, > I checked out the motec site (autronics also sell one) but these >are too expensive for me .That is why I was hoping one could be built (even >as a kit) at a fraction of the cost.Motecs unit is just right with the >screen and sensor. >Some of us race people are on tight budgets! >PAUL I know what you are saying Paul, but my point was if they felt the need for a 32bit micro to run the thing something must be tricky. Regards Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:48:00 -0500 Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) - -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sharpe To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:09 AM Subject: Re: UEGO IDEA was(Re: More UEGO stuff) Tell ya what over at syty they have programmer, and a complete editor how about just telling me what you think needs defeated to do this. Then what code changes to keep it closed loop, and have enough range for your mixture corrections. I'd like to see how you treat the IAC. I'm not saying it can't be done, but man whatta bunch of work. Bruce >Walter Sherwin wrote: >> Create a cal which defeats all of the A/F modifiers such as AE, EGR, ECT, >> etc. Also, disable open loop PE enrichment so that the computer stays in >> closed loop under all conditions. > It's not really that simple, but close..... Tom ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:57:16 -0500 Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff - -----Original Message----- From: Ross Myers To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:46 AM Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff My favorite quote, from a very good programmer, "we throw code at it till it works". Bruce > >> I checked out the motec site (autronics also sell one) but these >>are too expensive for me .That is why I was hoping one could be built (even >>as a kit) at a fraction of the cost.Motecs unit is just right with the >>screen and sensor. >>Some of us race people are on tight budgets! >>PAUL >I know what you are saying Paul, but my point was if they felt the need for >a 32bit micro to run the thing something must be tricky. >Regards >Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:32:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Chevy ECMs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0192_01BE4E4B.EEAA3B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Mittong To: diy_EFI@xxx.edu = Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:48 PM Subject: Chevy ECMs =20 52x8=3D416 416lbs/hr .5lbs/HP 832HP. That's one heck of an engine, or oops on the math. Bruce =20 =20 I have a 96 Impala SS with an LT1. I also have a bare LT1 block = that I plan to bore and stroke to 409. I already know about all of the = mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but wondered how much HP will the stock = PCM handle with reprogramming and about #52 injectors? Will I be able = to do it? If not, what PCM should I use? Curtis - ------=_NextPart_000_0192_01BE4E4B.EEAA3B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Curtis Mittong <>
To: = =20 <>
Date:=20 Monday, February 01, 1999 11:48 PM
Subject: Chevy=20 ECMs
 
52x8=3D416   =20 416lbs/hr     .5lbs/HP    =20 832HP.
That's one heck of an engine, or = oops on the=20 math.
Bruce

I have a 96 Impala SS with an = LT1.  I=20 also have a bare LT1 block that I plan to bore and stroke to = 409.  I=20 already know about all of the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but = wondered=20 how much HP will the stock PCM handle with reprogramming and about = #52=20 injectors?  Will I be able to do it?  If not, what PCM = should I=20 use?
Curtis
- ------=_NextPart_000_0192_01BE4E4B.EEAA3B40-- ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #83 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".