DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 2 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 084 In this issue: RE: Smooth strategy) RE: TC's and manual trans RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: TC's and manual trans RE: Love This Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: Chevy ECMs Re: PWM driver Re: Chevy ECMs Re: Chevy ECMs Re: Smooth strategy) Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: Love This Re: PWM driver Re: Intake Runner Length RE: Smooth strategy) RE: Chevy ECMs Tim Drury article Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) RE: Love This Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) RE: Intake Runner Length RE: Love This Re: Intake Runner Length Re: PWM driver Re: Intake Runner Length V-8 Datsun 240/260 owners sorry no DIY_EFI yet RE: Love This PWM motor controller RE: Intake Runner Length Re: Love This Re: PCM See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gwyn Reedy" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:30:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Smooth strategy) In 1956 the Hydra-matic got the second fluid coupling. Oldsmobile called it 'Jet-a-way' Hydramatic. It was internal to the transmission and replaced the bands for the 2-3 shift. Instead of clamping (or releasing)the band, they just filled or emptied the small coupling. I remember it well, although I might have the 2-3 shift thing wrong. Something else tells me that the coupling got 'used' twice during a complete shift sequence. Purpose was to add smoothness to the shifts. TV ads touted the engineering skill required to fill or empty the coupling in just one second. Was a high school kid at the time and devoured car magazines. The 56 Olds had a one second slower 0-60 time than the 55, yet had about 25 more horsepower. Thus we figured the extra fluid coupling was costing between 1 to 2 seconds. There were kids in my class whose families had both 55 and 56 models, so it got discussed a lot. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida mailto:mgr@xxx.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Greg > Hermann > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:02 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Smooth strategy) > > > >On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:53 -0500 "Gwyn Reedy" writes: > >>Take a WWII tank or a 40's Chrysler product with 'fluid drive' and you > >have > >>a fluid coupling with a standard transmission. > >> > >>Gwyn Reedy > >>Brandon, Florida > >>mailto:mgr@xxx.com > > Early four speed Hydra Matics (up to '56) (Also the boxes which got B&M > hydro started, and which were made famous by folks like Big John Mazmanian > & his Hemi-Willys coupe in the old A-Gas NHRA class) used a two element > fluid coupling, which only carried about 45% of the torque in the top two > gears. The post '56 four speed H-M units had a second, smaller fluid > coupling as well as the main one. Forget exactly what it did. > > Greg > > > >Mercedes also uses it in their Unimog 4X4 and 6X6 trucks. > > > >___________________________________________________________________ > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------ From: "Gwyn Reedy" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:30:17 -0500 Subject: RE: TC's and manual trans No substantial info - I only reference a WWII song (will get the name and band if you really want it) about being inducted into the Army. Rhymes about saluting and kp etc. One of the lines is ,"they give you a tank with fluid drive." Had many a ride in a 1950 Dodge (plus or minus a year) with fluid drive. Some woman at the church used to pick me up in the summer to go to vacation church school. I was about 8 or 9 years old and even then it bothered me to see her start out in high gear. You had to use the clutch to stop, but when ready to move, she just let out the clutch and pressed the accelerator. Very slow acceleration. If you wanted to go faster (relative term in a 6 cyl flathead) you could row through all the gears. I presume this was a derivative of what was put into the tanks in wartime production. Hydra-Matic came out before the war (1938?) but not sure if any other automatic or semi-automatic did. I was under the impression that Hydra-Matics were put into tanks as well. Maybe that was what the song was referring to and they were just using 'fluid drive' to get a rhyme. Drifting even farther off topic... It is interesting to study automotive history regarding the introduction of new engineering features into production vehicles. But looking at that alone is misleading. If you look at racing or aircraft development, the production auto engineering looks quite retarded. Guess that is what comes from having to meet a budget. An example - there was recently a discussion about turbocharging on the early 60's Corvair and Olds 215 engine. From the '90s that sounds advanced. Trouble is aircraft engines had been turbocharged for decades before - and compound supercharged as well (turbo and mechanical). Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida mailto:mgr@xxx.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Jim Davies > Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:47 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) > > > > > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > > Take a WWII tank... > > More info on this, please. > > ------------------------------ From: "BUTLER, Tom" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:55:53 -0400 Subject: RE: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) > Don't recall whatinell they called it, but for a while Porsche used a > fluid > coupling AND a vacuum operated clutch (which was triggered by a > microswitch > on the manual shift lever) in front of a manual tranny in the 911's. The > fluid coupling ran in engine oil, IIRC. (A fluid coupling does not > multiply > torque, has only two elements, called pump and turbine.) > > Easiest way to think of how one works (at least for me) is to think of a > centrifugal pump driving a centrifugal turbine--and then eliminate the two > housings, and all the attendant weight and inefficiencies, by just > wrapping > the impeller and turbine wheels into a taurus shape, and mounting them > face > to face. > > Regards, Greg > [BUTLER, Tom] These were also fairly common in VW's ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:52:29 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans The first turbocharged engine was a stationary power plant engine in 1905 by Brown Boveri and Co., predecessor to the current ABB. Gary Derian > >Drifting even farther off topic... It is interesting to study automotive >history regarding the introduction of new engineering features into >production vehicles. But looking at that alone is misleading. If you look at >racing or aircraft development, the production auto engineering looks quite >retarded. Guess that is what comes from having to meet a budget. An >example - there was recently a discussion about turbocharging on the early >60's Corvair and Olds 215 engine. From the '90s that sounds advanced. >Trouble is aircraft engines had been turbocharged for decades before - and >compound supercharged as well (turbo and mechanical). > >Gwyn Reedy >Brandon, Florida ------------------------------ From: "Ernst Denbroeder" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:07:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Love This > >That's a good question. How do they PWM the coolant fans? I know I > >can hear the relay clicking away.. > >Shannen > > I believe it's (the actual switching) done with an SCR, but that is coming > from a total klutz in terms of electronics. > Close... :) SCR's are used for AC applications. An SCR relys on the 0V crossing to turn off. And a TRIAC is two SCR's in parallel (sort of). :) Ernst. ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:06:48 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) A torque converter must have at least three elements. The extra torque comes from the reaction at the stator. Its the hydraulic equivalent to a lever and fulcrum where the extra force comes from the fulcrum. A torque converter is not more efficient than a fluid coupling but it does multiply torque when it is slipping adding an extra gear for starts. At low slippage (cruise conditions) the stator freewheels and a torque converter reverts to a fluid coupling. A 4 or 5 element converter would be the equivalent of a compound lever. Gary Derian >Efficiency is much higher with a torque converter. Very few torque >converters were two element, as the "stator", analogous to the >multiplier, was so much more effective with the curved blades. Instead >of the oil coming off the turbine trying to slow down the impeller, it >is redirected to the turbine, giving off more of it's energy the second >time round. >The ford-o-matic was one of the first to use a three member TQ, along >with later Powerglides,torque-flytes and cruise-o-matics.. >Lockup TQs are nothing new - Studebaker used a 4 member TQ in the late >50s or early sixties with a direct drive clutch.The Dynaflow used a 4 >member TQ - or twin turbine converter.Early PowerFlytes were also 4 >unit. Some of these used a variable pitch turbine. The early Powerglide >and Turboglide used 5 member converters - two pumps, two stators, and >one turbine. >Just a "short" history and description of the Torque converter. ------------------------------ From: "Curt Platteborze" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:10:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Chevy ECMs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4E83.7370B0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Curtis, The GM PCM will handle up to 30 LB injectors, I have heard a few 36 LB = programs but with some problems running rich. I assume you will be running a blower or NOS to get up over the 800 HP = mark. I am running two sets of injectors on a custom intake manifold on my 95. = I plan to install the complete Electromotive system soon with the Crank = trigger set up as well. Hope this helps. Curt -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Mittong To: diy_EFI@xxx.edu = Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:48 PM Subject: Chevy ECMs =20 =20 I have a 96 Impala SS with an LT1. I also have a bare LT1 block = that I plan to bore and stroke to 409. I already know about all of the = mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but wondered how much HP will the stock = PCM handle with reprogramming and about #52 injectors? Will I be able = to do it? If not, what PCM should I use? =20 Curtis - ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4E83.7370B0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Curtis,
 
The GM PCM will handle up to 30 LB injectors, I have = heard a=20 few 36 LB programs but with some problems running rich.
 
I assume you will be running a blower or NOS to get = up over=20 the 800 HP mark.
 
I am running two sets of injectors on a custom = intake manifold=20 on my 95. I plan to install the complete Electromotive system soon with = the=20 Crank trigger set up as well.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Curt
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Curtis Mittong <>
To: = =20 <>
Date:=20 Monday, February 01, 1999 11:48 PM
Subject: Chevy=20 ECMs

I have a 96 Impala SS with an = LT1.  I=20 also have a bare LT1 block that I plan to bore and stroke to = 409.  I=20 already know about all of the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but = wondered=20 how much HP will the stock PCM handle with reprogramming and about = #52=20 injectors?  Will I be able to do it?  If not, what PCM = should I=20 use?
 
Curtis
- ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4E83.7370B0C0-- ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 08:15:38 -0500 Subject: Re: PWM driver Are you sure you don't have an EE or something , you scored a direct hit on this one! BobR. Stay tuned for simple/effective circuit... Bruce wrote: >Might think about using two IRFZ20's >The surge on is big. I think on a TRex pump we went to 25A fuses, once. >I'm no EE, but from what I looked at ganging some Power MOSFETs on the >output looked like the hot setup, then add or minus as ya want >Bruce ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:29:45 EST Subject: Re: Chevy ECMs Yup, good approach Bruce, I bet Doc helped ya.. <| 8~) While a lot depends on how radical the engine is, if it is naturally aspirated, you should prolly start with ~32 #ers and take some vital signs under load.. Th GM ECM will be easier to tune with 32's than 52's. 32x8=256lbs/hr >> CSH Calcs> ==>> 512HP 39x8 312lbs/hr >> CSH Calcs> ==>> 624HP Mike V > 52x8=416 416lbs/hr .5lbs/HP 832HP. > That's one heck of an engine, or oops on the math. > Bruce >> I have a 96 Impala SS with an LT1. I also have a bare LT1 block >> that I plan to bore and stroke to 409. I already know about all of >> the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but wondered how much HP will >> the stock PCM handle with reprogramming and about #52 injectors? >> Will I be able to do it? If not, what PCM should I use? >> Curtis ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:01:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Chevy ECMs Curtis, The 96 PCM is OBD-II compliant. It is much more sensative to changes than the older units. It will set a lot of error codes if you make engine changes. A 94-95 PCM (16188051)from any LT1 will plug into your wiring harness and run the engine. It will not have OBD-II and not use the aftercat O2 sensors. Be sure to change the Knock sensor in the engine to match the original PCM application. Some people have had success changing the Knock module in the PCM to the one from the original PCM and not changing the KS. Ken > Curtis Mittong wrote: > > I have a 96 Impala SS with an LT1. I also have a bare LT1 > block that I plan to bore and stroke to 409. I already > know about all of the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but > wondered how much HP will the stock PCM handle with > reprogramming and about #52 injectors? Will I be able to > do it? If not, what PCM should I use? > > Curtis ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:13:28 EST Subject: Re: Smooth strategy) In a message dated 2/1/99 7:59:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmic.ray@xxx.com writes: << On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:53 -0500 "Gwyn Reedy" writes: >Take a WWII tank or a 40's Chrysler product with 'fluid drive' and you have >a fluid coupling with a standard transmission. > >Gwyn Reedy >Brandon, Florida >mailto:mgr@xxx.com Mercedes also uses it in their Unimog 4X4 and 6X6 trucks. >> Yes, but why not go for a more violent type, and build a Clutchflite, or does anyone recall the old clutch conversions for Torqueflites? Kind of a poor mans Lenco. manual valve body and no missed shifts. They made versions of it in TH400 too. Fred ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:41:10 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Gary Derian wrote: > > A torque converter must have at least three elements. The extra torque > comes from the reaction at the stator. Its the hydraulic equivalent to a > lever and fulcrum where the extra force comes from the fulcrum. A torque > converter is not more efficient than a fluid coupling but it does multiply > torque when it is slipping adding an extra gear for starts. At low slippage > (cruise conditions) the stator freewheels and a torque converter reverts to > a fluid coupling. A 4 or 5 element converter would be the equivalent of a > compound lever. > > Gary Derian Reference Wm Crouse - Automotive mechanics- fifth edition - Webster/Mc Graw Hill. Torque converters with only 2 elements DID exist. The definitive difference between a fluid coupling and a TC is the shape of the vanes. Note, a 3 element fluid coupling also existed. You took auto mechanics in high school - I taught it :} > > > >Efficiency is much higher with a torque converter. Very few torque > >converters were two element, as the "stator", analogous to the > >multiplier, was so much more effective with the curved blades. Instead > >of the oil coming off the turbine trying to slow down the impeller, it > >is redirected to the turbine, giving off more of it's energy the second > >time round. > >The ford-o-matic was one of the first to use a three member TQ, along > >with later Powerglides,torque-flytes and cruise-o-matics.. > >Lockup TQs are nothing new - Studebaker used a 4 member TQ in the late > >50s or early sixties with a direct drive clutch.The Dynaflow used a 4 > >member TQ - or twin turbine converter.Early PowerFlytes were also 4 > >unit. Some of these used a variable pitch turbine. The early Powerglide > >and Turboglide used 5 member converters - two pumps, two stators, and > >one turbine. > >Just a "short" history and description of the Torque converter. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:42:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Love This Ernst Denbroeder wrote: > > > >That's a good question. How do they PWM the coolant fans? I know I > > >can hear the relay clicking away.. > > >Shannen > > > > I believe it's (the actual switching) done with an SCR, but that is coming > > from a total klutz in terms of electronics. > > > Close... :) SCR's are used for AC applications. An SCR relys on > the 0V crossing to turn off. And a TRIAC is two SCR's in parallel (sort > of). :) > > Ernst. Also used (with commutation circuit) on DC controllers like the GE EV1 motor controller used on forklifts and some electric cars. REAL tricky getting the suckers to turn off though! ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:46:08 -0500 Subject: Re: PWM driver - -----Original Message----- From: rauscher@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:39 AM Subject: Re: PWM driver Actually was Doc's idea (weird cackling laugh in background) Bruce Doc just has gone round the bend, since shoveling snow out of the kitchen... Which brings up the whole matter of the last incident... >Are you sure you don't have an EE or something , you scored >a direct hit on this one! >BobR. >Stay tuned for simple/effective circuit... >Bruce wrote: >>Might think about using two IRFZ20's >>The surge on is big. I think on a TRex pump we went to 25A fuses, once. >>I'm no EE, but from what I looked at ganging some Power MOSFETs on the >>output looked like the hot setup, then add or minus as ya want >>Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:53:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Intake Runner Length - -----Original Message----- From: Van Setten, Tim (AZ75) To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 5:26 PM Subject: RE: Intake Runner Length Brutual snippage >> We wanted a box with knobs on it. that controls the basic fuel >>curve. The digital stuff is a nightmare. Magnesium engines, steel >>frames, aluminum do-dads, high RF fields from radios, lots of emi >>from magneto's, (to really screw up a ecm, watch what a MSD >>7AL2 multi-spark does using solid core wires), but the topper is >>when some of these village-idiots use a garden tractor battery to >>try starting a 13:1 compression motor! >> When we went to a basic analog system, 99.99999% of the >>problems went away. (No processor resets, endless loops, watch->>dog timers, etc..etc..). >> Going to a speed-density system, (TPS and Tach), sequential->>double fire, we could use pot to trim overall curve, idle, mid, top >>end. Adding a MAP gave us the additional curve for the boost >>correction fuel. I can't go into schematics without giving up too >>many secrets, but I'll try to answer questions. (Hope I answered >>some of your questions Bruce). >> Tim. Would it be safe to say you used 555's?. Would asking what for Op-Amps be OK?. Just 4 pots?. Bruce ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:56:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Smooth strategy) On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote: > Something else tells me that the coupling got 'used' twice during a complete > shift sequence. Purpose was to add smoothness to the shifts. TV ads touted > the engineering skill required to fill or empty the coupling in just one > second. > It always seemed to be "in just one block" The "engineering skill" was infact a variable displacement vane pump. This fine piece of engineering returned in the TH125 and 700R4 in the 1980s. ------------------------------ From: "Ernst Denbroeder" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:05:04 -0500 Subject: RE: Chevy ECMs Curious... Is the 96 PCM a pre 96 with additional circuitry or is it a ground up redesign? Ernst. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Kelly [SMTP:kenkelly@xxx.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:02 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Chevy ECMs > > Curtis, > The 96 PCM is OBD-II compliant. It is much more sensative > to changes than the older units. It will set a lot of error > codes if you make engine changes. A 94-95 PCM (16188051)from > any LT1 will plug into your wiring harness and run the > engine. It will not have OBD-II and not use the aftercat O2 > sensors. Be sure to change the Knock sensor in the engine to > match the original PCM application. Some people have had > success changing the Knock module in the PCM to the one from > the original PCM and not changing the KS. > > Ken > > > Curtis Mittong wrote: > > > > I have a 96 Impala SS with an LT1. I also have a bare LT1 > > block that I plan to bore and stroke to 409. I already > > know about all of the mechanical pitfalls I will hit, but > > wondered how much HP will the stock PCM handle with > > reprogramming and about #52 injectors? Will I be able to > > do it? If not, what PCM should I use? > > > > Curtis ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:05:05 -0600 Subject: Tim Drury article Several people have written me asking about the distributorless ignition article that Tim Drury wrote. There is a pointer to it on the DIY_EFI page. The article has been unavailable for some time now. Does anyone know the wherabouts of either Tim or his article? - --steve ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:39:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) > > > Don't recall whatinell they called it, but for a while Porsche used a > > fluid > > coupling AND a vacuum operated clutch (which was triggered by a > > microswitch > > on the manual shift lever) in front of a manual tranny in the 911's. The > > fluid coupling ran in engine oil, IIRC. (A fluid coupling does not > > multiply > > torque, has only two elements, called pump and turbine.) TipTronic Clive ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:18:14 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) I am defining a torque converter as a device that multiplies torque. If there are only 2 elements, where does the torque multiplication come from? If one element is attached to the engine and the second element is attached to the transmission, there is no way the second element can have more torque than the first. This two element thing you are describing may be a very nice device and it may have been called a torque converter but it cannot multiply torque. For that, you need a reaction member. I never took auto mechanics in high school. Gary Derian >Gary Derian wrote: >> >> A torque converter must have at least three elements. The extra torque >> comes from the reaction at the stator. Its the hydraulic equivalent to a >> lever and fulcrum where the extra force comes from the fulcrum. A torque >> converter is not more efficient than a fluid coupling but it does multiply >> torque when it is slipping adding an extra gear for starts. At low slippage >> (cruise conditions) the stator freewheels and a torque converter reverts to >> a fluid coupling. A 4 or 5 element converter would be the equivalent of a >> compound lever. > >Reference Wm Crouse - Automotive mechanics- fifth edition - Webster/Mc >Graw Hill. >Torque converters with only 2 elements DID exist. The definitive >difference between a fluid coupling and a TC is the shape of the vanes. >Note, a 3 element fluid coupling also existed. > >You took auto mechanics in high school - I taught it :} ------------------------------ From: "Ernst Denbroeder" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:31:20 -0500 Subject: RE: Love This > Also used (with commutation circuit) on DC controllers like the GE EV1 > motor controller used on forklifts and some electric cars. REAL tricky > getting the suckers to turn off though! > Interesting... never thought of an SCR in that context before. Although I can see how you'd use it in that application. Ernst. ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:36:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) > > << Forgetting for the moment about the specific machiningg, adapters, etc that > would be required to physically hook it up, is it possible or feasible > to make it work outside of an automatic trans? Is it's hydraulic fluid > supply sealed inside the convertor? Could you fill the convertor and > seal it and expect it to work for very long or does it need a continuous > flow of fluid for cooling? If so, would pressure need to be modulated > for any reason or does it just need a continuous flow? there are industrial units that operate as dry stand alone selealed units you could mount it sealed and have it enclosed by a box containinig some cooling liquid that is circulated though a rad etc. > you should expect to provide some cooling fluid flow depending on > the stall speed and if you will have a lockup converter you will need > to control that with fluid pressure. > > Your best bet is to take a front pump and converter from a donor > tranmission. maybe one with a tcc too the Ford AOD has a solid shaft through the centre that is used as lock drive for lockup mode, it inserts into splines machined into the converter housing Clive > > James > ------------------------------ From: "Van Setten, Tim (AZ75)" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:57:43 -0700 Subject: RE: Intake Runner Length > Subject: RE: Intake Runner Length > Massive Brutal snippage > Would it be safe to say you used 555's?. > Would asking what for Op-Amps be OK?. > Just 4 pots?. > Bruce > Sorry, no 555's in sight. The box is broke up into two basic parts. One for the injector timing, and the other for duty-cycle (pulse width for you digital types). Injector timing is done by converting the input pulses from the coil (freq.) into a dc voltage. Next step is using a dc-freq. converter (PLL) to set the rep. rate for the inj. timing. I found that when I run the inj. at approx. 8% faster than what the engine is running, the bottom end and mid range is fantastic! If it is set to 1:1, it stumbles or hesitates. I can momentarily speed up the freq. of the inj., and/or increase the duty-cycle for an accel. pump action, but it's not the same. An Accel pump seems to kill the off idle transition in a port inj. design. I can also slow down the freq. of the inj. (to eng. freq.) to lean out the idle if the pulse width gets to narrow. (Remember we are using anywhere from 32 lb/hr to 60 lb/hr, low impedance injectors). The TPS input goes thru different op-amps that the gain is controlled by the engine freq, thus the different ranges, idle, mid, and top or wide open. Did I help at all, Bruce? Tim ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:10:29 -0600 Subject: RE: Love This PWM of cooling fans is done almost exactly the same way injectors are fired, more or less duty cycle to a transistor. > -----Original Message----- > From: Clarence L.Snyder [SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca@xxx.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:43 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Love This > > Ernst Denbroeder wrote: > > > > > >That's a good question. How do they PWM the coolant fans? I know I > > > >can hear the relay clicking away.. > > > >Shannen > > > > > > I believe it's (the actual switching) done with an SCR, but that is > coming > > > from a total klutz in terms of electronics. > > > > > Close... :) SCR's are used for AC applications. An SCR relys > on > > the 0V crossing to turn off. And a TRIAC is two SCR's in parallel (sort > > of). :) > > > > Ernst. > Also used (with commutation circuit) on DC controllers like the GE EV1 > motor controller used on forklifts and some electric cars. REAL tricky > getting the suckers to turn off though! ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:25:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Intake Runner Length > > > > The D port is from what "chev" has done with the exhaust port, > >probably some else did it first, it's just they are so common...... > >Bruce > > IIRC, the exhaust ports on the Ford 427 FE "cammer" were the first to be D > shaped---with the flat on the short side of the curve. In other words, > round, except for where the flow would separate anywayz. Believe it was > claimed to help keep velocity up, and more importantly, turbulence down. actually what it does is slow the flow at the bottom of the port more than the flow at the top this helps the gases turn the corner Clive > > Regards, Greg > > >> Thanks for all the inputs.....Tim. > >> > > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:48:07 -0500 Subject: Re: PWM driver Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: rauscher@xxx.com> > To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> > Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: PWM driver > > Actually was Doc's idea (weird cackling laugh in background) > Bruce Doc just has gone round the bend, since shoveling snow > out of the kitchen... Which brings up the whole matter > of the last incident... > Another lesson in applied physics? Shannen > >Are you sure you don't have an EE or something , you scored > >a direct hit on this one! > >BobR. > >Stay tuned for simple/effective circuit... > >Bruce wrote: > >>Might think about using two IRFZ20's > >>The surge on is big. I think on a TRex pump we went to 25A fuses, once. > >>I'm no EE, but from what I looked at ganging some Power MOSFETs on the > >>output looked like the hot setup, then add or minus as ya want > >>Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:17:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Intake Runner Length - -----Original Message----- From: Van Setten, Tim (AZ75) To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 1:27 PM Subject: RE: Intake Runner Length > Massive Brutal snippage > >Injector timing is done by converting the input pulses from the coil (freq.) >into a dc voltage. Next step is using a dc-freq. converter (PLL) to set the >rep. rate for the inj. timing. I found that when I run the inj. at approx. >8% faster than what the engine is running, the bottom end and mid range is >fantastic! If it is set to 1:1, it stumbles or hesitates. I can >momentarily speed up the freq. of the inj., and/or increase the duty-cycle >for an accel. pump action, but it's not the same. An Accel pump seems to >kill the off idle transition in a port inj. design. I can also slow down >the freq. of the inj. (to eng. freq.) to lean out the idle if the pulse >width gets to narrow. (Remember we are using anywhere from 32 lb/hr to 60 >lb/hr, low impedance injectors). >The TPS input goes thru different op-amps that the gain is controlled by the >engine freq, thus the different ranges, idle, mid, and top or wide open. >Did I help at all, Bruce? Yep, but Doc, and Grumpy's eyes have glazed over. This Phased Locked Loop Stuff is like shuttle trajectory calculations, for them. OK, us........ Bruce >Tim > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:20:04 -0500 Subject: V-8 Datsun 240/260 owners sorry no DIY_EFI yet If you own one of these SBC conversions, please e-mail me, nacelp@xxx.net Bruce ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:33:24 -0600 Subject: RE: Love This Could you, or someone, please explain PWM (assuming that PWM=Pulse Width Modulation) of cooling fans? I thought that cooling fans worked on an on/off system. Under what conditions would you want PWM control, and what is the pulse width that is being modulated? You guys really know how to humble a guy; I thought I had a lock on cooling fans!(:< Clarence At 12:10 PM 2/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >PWM of cooling fans is done almost exactly the same way injectors are fired, >more or less duty cycle to a transistor. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Clarence L.Snyder [SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca@xxx.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:43 AM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: Love This >> >> Ernst Denbroeder wrote: >> > >> > > >That's a good question. How do they PWM the coolant fans? I know I >> > > >can hear the relay clicking away.. >> > > >Shannen >> > > >> > > I believe it's (the actual switching) done with an SCR, but that is >> coming >> > > from a total klutz in terms of electronics. >> > > >> > Close... :) SCR's are used for AC applications. An SCR relys >> on >> > the 0V crossing to turn off. And a TRIAC is two SCR's in parallel (sort >> > of). :) >> > >> > Ernst. >> Also used (with commutation circuit) on DC controllers like the GE EV1 >> motor controller used on forklifts and some electric cars. REAL tricky >> getting the suckers to turn off though! > > ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 14:15:07 -0500 Subject: PWM motor controller Ok, have it done up. Find in the incoming directory a couple of files: Pwm.txt Write up on circuit pwm1.gif Image of schematic Have fun, and let us know how your experiments work out! BobR. Any questions, just post... - -- ------------------------------ From: "Van Setten, Tim (AZ75)" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:11:35 -0700 Subject: RE: Intake Runner Length > > IIRC, the exhaust ports on the Ford 427 FE "cammer" were the first to be > D > > shaped---with the flat on the short side of the curve. In other words, > > round, except for where the flow would separate anywayz. Believe it was > > claimed to help keep velocity up, and more importantly, turbulence down. > > > actually what it does is slow the flow at the bottom of the port > more than the flow at the top > this helps the gases turn the corner > "Gasses"? Stay with me, I'm on a learning curve here. I don't know if it is important anymore between the "D" or "Square" shaped runners anymore because it is only air going thru them. I can understand air speed in the runner, etc., but where it goes out the window for me is when you see the runner, where it attaches to the plenum, is a square corner! A lot of plenum / runner combinations are shaped like a "T". Believe me, I'm not trying to make an issue out of this, just trying to understand and make the best setup feasible. Thanks.....Tim. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:26:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Love This - -----Original Message----- From: Clarence Wood To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 4:11 PM Subject: RE: Love This > Could you, or someone, please explain PWM (assuming that PWM=Pulse Width Modulation) of cooling fans? It all relates to the digitial world. While resistors could be used to slow a fan motor down, they give off heat, and thus waste energy. PWM, is full on but for short periods of time, lots less wasted heat. Also, infinitely variable speed controls are possible. While was mentioned for cooling fans, I was looking for a fuel pump controller, but a motor issa motor. Bruce I thought that cooling fans worked on an on/off system. Under what conditions would you want PWM control, and what is the pulse width that is being modulated? You guys really know how to humble a guy; I thought I had a lock on cooling fans!(:< >Clarence ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:42:42 -0800 Subject: Re: PCM Howday all Did some lookin round that Patent Web page Mike posted. Patent 5,267,542 might be interesting for those lookin at gm PCMs Bit of misinformation though gl:peter ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #84 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".