DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 5 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 092 In this issue: Re: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator Re: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator Re: Newbie questions Re: Newbie questions Re: fusible link questions 727 powered Harley? Plugs for flare fittings? Re: Newbie questions RE: Photos and ECU7 EFI Schematics are online! Re: Photos and ECU7 EFI Schematics are online! RE: 730/808 questions Re: MAP manipulations Electric fuel pressure gauge. RE: Plugs for flare fittings? RE: Plugs for flare fittings? RE: Electric fuel pressure gauge. Re: Plugs for flare fittings? Re: Plugs for flare fittings? Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Re: Plugs for flare fittings? Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #85 RE: Plugs for flare fittings? RE: crank position sensor Re: Newbie questions Re: Tweak your Delco's boys!!!!. RE: Newbie questions Re: Tweak your Delco's boys!!!!. NOT efi, but software!. Re: 730/808 questions Re: Which EFI RE: Electric fuel pressure gauge. See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DC Smith Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 06:05:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator Mike, That's a pretty impressive piece! One thing I would be looking at myself, is mounting it on the fender liner. I would take that nice o-ring setup you made and attach it to a bracket that bolts to the oiginal regulator holes, then run a AN line to the regulator on the fender liner. From there to the return line on the frame. I am concerned that with the large mass of the regulator, it will tend to move and possibly leak fuel. Fire! :) (the ones I saw left the stock regulator on the rail, and were installed in the return line, after the stock regulator.) The big thing is to hold back flow, to get FP to go up. +your throttle linkage will be RIGHT there, and could possibly catch. (just guessing here) Is that the KB 70 mm throttle body/dog hou$$$e? Nice stuff! *********************************************************************** Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.13@112 GSCA# 1459 St.Charles, Missouri mailto:dcsmith@xxx.org http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:25:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator Very interesting pictures! What is the blade diameter of the Throttle Body in the background, and where did you find it? I have been looking for something very similar. Thanks; Walt. >I updated the webpage listed above BTW. I added a few more >photos showing how the regulator looks on the fuel rail. The >closeup photo is of the "press-in" fitting. We made this on a milling >lathe so that the FPR would mount in the stock location without >modifying the rail itself. > ------------------------------ From: Steve Gorkowski Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 06:43:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Newbie questions yes the regulator on throttle body. Steve Bruce Plecan wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Yeagley > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:51 PM > Subject: Newbie questions > > snip > > > >What (if any) is the difference between Chevy car systems and truck > systems? > > Cars usually use a Air Temp Sensor. Trucks might be considered > high torgue applications. > > >If I use a late model Ford fuel pump, frame mounted, is the regulator in > >the throttle body? > > Don't know > > >Will a 305 throttle body have enough cfm for my 400? > > Not really, but the throttle body off of a Big Block Chevy Truck would. > > > >I've been reading here about different software/hardware for communicating > >with the car's computer, but I admit I haven't been able to pick up much. > I > >have a little experience with OTC Monitor 2000 and 4000, but they couldn't > >change any settings. Can someone explain the basic idea behind changing > >(and figuring out the changes needed) the prom? > > You have to make changes in the prom to change the timing or > fueling. > > >>From what I can tell, there's a program that allows you to hook up a > laptop, > >kind of intercept the signals and change them between the cars computer and > >the engine, test the changes, then save them. Does this sound right? > > Ther is a device called an emulator that goes where the prom goes > that you can edit things (using a laptop), and then burn a prom. > > Then, > >how do you get these changes into a new prom? > > > >Geez, that's enough for now. Thanks for your patience and answers, or at > >the least the entertainment from reading all the posts to this list. > > > >Jim Yeagley > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:52:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Newbie questions I was a mechanic in a small shop,(ie, just me!) well, it was a gas station, for 5 years. Before that, I worked at a few used car dealerships and chain shops. Most of the cars that needed work were GM's, so that's what I needed to learn. Someone else bought an OTC Monitor 2000, but couldn't understand it (old school mechanic, with stethoscope) and hated computer controls. I used it, thought it was the coolest, later found it useless! Anyone could pretty much pull codes with a cotter pin, and shoot the bug from there. I borrowed a 4000 for a while, and found the multiple sensor display and the refresh rate was a bit more useful. Now, I work as a mechanic for the Postal Service on mail processing machines. Most everything I do involves computers, i/o cards, plc's, etc. Basically, I've got a pretty good understanding of both mechanical and computer functions, but not a master for sure. Jim Yeagley Member: www.indyram.org ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:11:36 -0700 Subject: Re: fusible link questions >On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:29:48 -0500 "David A. Cooley" > writes: >>At 05:56 PM 2/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>>OK--so who's gonna be the first to suggest building a device to limit >the >>>charging rate of the battery (and to correct charging voltage (to the >>>battery only) for battery temperature, while we're at it?? >> >>Chrysler! >> >>On my 95 neon there was a battery temp sensor and the PCM controlled the >>alternator. >>Charging voltage varied with temp. > >The alternater in my '89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer senses the ambient >temperature and adjusts the voltage accordingly. I'm not sure when Jeep >started using that design. > >I believe that the newer batteries are more tolerant of high charging >current. That may be why the electronic regulaters don't bother limiting >output current. I suspect that the main reason is that the accessories >in a modern car draw so much current. > >Ray I was thinking more in terms of regulating the alternator to , say, a steady 15 volts, and then cutting that down to whatever is ideal for the battery in terms of voltage and current, based on temp, etc., for charging it. Course, it would also be nice to have a device to step the battery output back up, at least to critical devices, such as the ecu and injectors, for those times when the alternator does not make a high enough voltage for your chosen bus voltage. Again--dunno if I did not say it clearly, or if nobody was listening carefully. Regards, Greg > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Doug Mansfield Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:12:08 -0500 Subject: 727 powered Harley? Let me first make a quick introduction. My name is Doug Mansfield and I am working on a design project at Ohio University's College of Mechanical Engineering. This design project involes either building or adapting EFI to a 1981 Harley Davidson Sportster. After exploring the options of building a complete system, I have decided to forgo it and simply adapt an existing system. The engine is a 1L 45 degree V-twin. I makes about 50-55HP. It shares a single 40mm carb currently. I will continue to use a throttle body type of setup. It is air cooled with a dry sump oil system. This is what I have been considering. I want to use a GM 727 from a 4 cylinder 2.5L engine. I will not use/need: EGR canister purge A/C air pump spark control gear select speed sensor idle control Basically I want to use my current electronic ignition module for the reference pulse (there are two pulses per revolution, it is a wasted spark system that I am using in a single spark mode. I can explain that better if needed). I have a analog pulse coming out twice each rev. I would need to convert that to digital and use it for my reference pulse. All I want if fuel control using the basic speed desnsity inputs. Before I start really digging into this, I wanted to get some opinions of the collective. So am I on the right track, or will this fail? Doug ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:00:17 +0000 Subject: Plugs for flare fittings? If I wanted to remove the AIR pump on my V8 S-10 conversion, then I'd have to find some flare plugs to plug the holes in the exhaust manifold where the AIR connects, right? Any suggestions on where to find something like that? I've called plumbing and A/C suppliers in my area and can't come up with anything. A few places told me that if they had them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they work? The manifold is cast iron and the AIR tubes are stainless. Will brass take the heat cycling and temps? I know I could replace the manifold also, but I'd rather just plug the one I have. thanks, - --steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:26:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Newbie questions Jim Yeagley wrote: > > EFI gurus, > > I've been lurking her for a while, soaking it in. My EFI project is a 1975 > Pontiac Grandville, 400 cid. The car is a convertible that sits around a > lot here in northern Ohio, so I started thinking about injection a couple > years ago to avoid all the carb problems that come from sitting. It wasn't > until I found this list that I knew it would be possible. > > I would like to use a GM TBI system, say from a Chevy Caprice or truck, > since I've had a little experience a few years back with GM computers. > > Now for the questions. > > What (if any) is the difference between Chevy car systems and truck systems? > If I use a late model Ford fuel pump, frame mounted, is the regulator in > the throttle body? > Will a 305 throttle body have enough cfm for my 400? I think most GM TBI systems have the regulator in the throttle body. Frame mounte pump should be OK as long as it's the right pressure (about 15 psi for TBI, 40 or more for TPI). As far as 305 throttle body goes.... I'm far from an expert but this is what I've read that makes sense. A 305 throttle body probably flows enough air for your 400 but the injectors won't be big enough. Carbs have to be sized to the engine so that flow velocity is high enough for the venturies to work. EFI doesn't have that constraint so throttle bodies are sized larger to flow plenty of air. Flow rate of an EFI throttle body has more to do with the injectors installed in it that the physical size. > > I've been reading here about different software/hardware for communicating > with the car's computer, but I admit I haven't been able to pick up much. I > have a little experience with OTC Monitor 2000 and 4000, but they couldn't > change any settings. Can someone explain the basic idea behind changing > (and figuring out the changes needed) the prom? If you go to the DIY_EFI WWW page and check out the programming 101 project and the tuning tips you'll read about how to make changes to the EPROM. Basically the EPROM is chock full of tables that relate VE to MAP and RPM, tables for timing, tables for temp correction and a bazillion other things. Once you know where the tables are and what the units of the numbers in the table are, you can start changing them to match your engine. > >From what I can tell, there's a program that allows you to hook up a laptop, > kind of intercept the signals and change them between the cars computer and > the engine, test the changes, then save them. Does this sound right? Then, > how do you get these changes into a new prom? Aftermarket systems may be that flexible, but not the ones that we talk about, like 747, 730, 165, etc. The only way to program them is to remove the prom, edit the image, and burn a new prom. > > Geez, that's enough for now. Thanks for your patience and answers, or at > the least the entertainment from reading all the posts to this list. > > Jim Yeagley - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Al Lipper Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:33:48 -0800 Subject: RE: Photos and ECU7 EFI Schematics are online! Nothing definite yet, be we are planning to have PC Boards and at least hard-to-find parts available (things like the CPU, programmed EPROM, RAM, etc.) I'll let people know how things go. Al At 08:48 PM 2/5/99 +1100, you wrote: >Will you be having PCB's made, and if so can I put my name down for a few ?. > >Wayne. > ------------------------------ From: Al Lipper Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:38:38 -0800 Subject: Re: Photos and ECU7 EFI Schematics are online! George, The BASIC program for ECU6/7 is compiled by Blue Earth Micro's BEC-51 compiler and delivers excellent speed in that form. It is also very easy to imbed assembly in that particular compiler. Your help would be great. If you have experience with flash memory, I have just the project for you. We need someone who can adapt our flash loader from the old 12v chip to the new 5v chip, as well as get the bugs out of it (the old program didn't work reliably in any case). Let me know if this is something you'd be interested in. Thanks. Al At 11:45 AM 2/5/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Al > >I have been following your ecu developement using the '51 derivative. >I am familiar with the normal '51 types without the pca timers etc. >Very interesting and well thought. 68HCXXX derivatives in good old SA >is very hard to come by and expensive. > >I see that your program is written in Basic. Are you using a basic >compiler for the micro. Would you be willing to furnish me details >about the compiler and where it could obtained. > >I use C to write my applications. I might be could be of some >assistance as far as software. My assembler programming is not bad >either. What I would normally do is to write some code in assembler >and patch it into the C code. Saves on code space. Sometimes the >linker pulls in big chunks of code from the library files. I have >rewritten some of these, so that it does not take up much space.eg. >display routines for lcd's. > >Code space is at a premium when you use devices like the atmel >89c2051 which has just 2kbyte of eprom. > >Mail me you software needs ie. flowcharts, algoritms etc.and i will >see if I can be of assistance. > >What i am currently intersted in is just to control ignition >digitally for advance/retard and rpm limiting. > >Regards >Georg > >Georg Lerm >Chief Technician >Clinical Engineering >Red Cross Hospital >Cape Town >South Africa >Tel. +27 21 658-5120 >Fax. +27 21 658-5120 ------------------------------ From: "Guenther,Max" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:35:47 -0500 Subject: RE: 730/808 questions > >Snip >> 2. I've read up on Programming 808, but how does the 165/808 relate to >> the 727/730 ? same tables, just different locations? >> >> 3. Has anyone used the Promgrammer98 from the SyTy page? will it work >> with the 730? >> >Promgrammer is designed to work with a different ECM. Go to the >archives, there's a couple of notes there. Look for "749 calibration". > >I just checked under 749 calibration in DIY_efi and searched under 749 >calibration, got three matches. Even looked under 749. Not much there >except Bruce saying he got it to work with some minor pin out stuff. With >AUJP I got #of cyl = 0 and Max RPM =2275. Is this stuff ignored/disabled >like the malfunction codes? Please enlighten me. Bruce made it sound fairly >simple. Something for me to aspire to! > >I have prom from a 90 vette(?) marked ARFP. Is this right? > ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 11:40:10 -0500 Subject: Re: MAP manipulations John, you have a valid question, so don't take this the wrong way: this is really, really easy to do. I can't believe that they get 300 to 500 bucks for this unit. Maybe a 100 after the case & connectors. (maybe this is not in US dollars?). The gain and offset changes can be done with a single op-amp. A zener to limit the output, another op-amp to buffer this, and a capacitor on the first op-amp as a filter. The 5v out from a 7805 3-terminal regulator. Maybe I'm speaking too hastily, but I don't think so. As to the 'why', yes if all you did to your engine was up the FP, or put in larger injectors, you could tune it in better. But, you might go crazy if you didn't remember to reset the ECM to zero out the BLM between changes. What this unit will do, is shift the VE & spark tables along the MAP axis. Oh, probably change when the PE kicks in relative to the MAP also. Maybe this is where most gains are from, as the INT and BLM will 'undo' a lot of what you 'did' with this unit. If you changed the cam, this will change the entire (or most of) the VE table. I don't believe that the below device will do 'enough' to bring the tuning back in. As the VE table peaks and valleys areas will have changed. Then again, if the ECM this unit is used on, doesn't 'learn', then it might do more then the above mentioned. As for as my thoughts on the need to change the MAP output, yes, I have been thinking of one: On a radically cam'd engine, smoothing of the MAP output, at idle only, may be beneficial. BobR. Falb, John wrote: >Are there any current designs or thoughts on modifying the output of a 5v >MAP sensor. > >1. Moving the output up or down by a fixed amount over the entire operating >range. > >2. Change the gain of the output up or down. > >3. Not letting the output exceed 5v. > >An example of one is here but it costs 300 and 500 respectively. >http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm > >http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc2/arc2ds.htm > á >If you have any ideas please share. > >John Falb - -- ------------------------------ From: d houlton x0710 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: Electric fuel pressure gauge. Anybody seen the new electric fuel pressure gauges from AutoMeter? The white faced UltraLite models? I'd like to get one for in-cab mounting, but they're absurdly expensive. About $190, while the electric oil pressure gauges are much more reasonable at about $60 maybe? (don't remember for sure) So, anybody know why they're gouging so bad for the fuel gauges? I called and they said something about the sender being different. Why couldn't they just use the oil pressure setup and change the face to say "fuel" instead of "oil"? Is there really any reason you wouldn't want to use the oil pressure sender in a fuel line? They're both 0 - 100 psi BTW. thanks - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/Amigo/amigo.htm ------------------------------ From: "BUTLER, Tom" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:29:02 -0400 Subject: RE: Plugs for flare fittings? JB Weld perhaps? > -----Original Message----- > From: steve ravet [SMTP:steve.ravet@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:00 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Plugs for flare fittings? > > If I wanted to remove the AIR pump on my V8 S-10 conversion, then I'd > have to find some flare plugs to plug the holes in the exhaust manifold > where the AIR connects, right? Any suggestions on where to find > something like that? I've called plumbing and A/C suppliers in my area > and can't come up with anything. A few places told me that if they had > them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they > work? The manifold is cast iron and the AIR tubes are stainless. Will > brass take the heat cycling and temps? > > I know I could replace the manifold also, but I'd rather just plug the > one I have. > > thanks, > --steve > > > -- > Steve Ravet > ARM, INC > steve.ravet@xxx.com > www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:49:07 -0600 Subject: RE: Plugs for flare fittings? When I plugged the holes on my 82 T/A I used regular pipe plugs. The brass will work also the just turn colors. The T/A had a hole on each cylinder, does your have the one big hole on the front of the exhaust manifold ? I believe the plugs are 1/4 or 5/16 NPT. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: BUTLER, Tom [SMTP:TEBUTLER@xxx.ca] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:29 AM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: Plugs for flare fittings? > > JB Weld perhaps? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: steve ravet [SMTP:steve.ravet@xxx.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:00 AM > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: Plugs for flare fittings? > > > > If I wanted to remove the AIR pump on my V8 S-10 conversion, then I'd > > have to find some flare plugs to plug the holes in the exhaust manifold > > where the AIR connects, right? Any suggestions on where to find > > something like that? I've called plumbing and A/C suppliers in my area > > and can't come up with anything. A few places told me that if they had > > them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they > > work? The manifold is cast iron and the AIR tubes are stainless. Will > > brass take the heat cycling and temps? > > > > I know I could replace the manifold also, but I'd rather just plug the > > one I have. > > > > thanks, > > --steve > > > > > > -- > > Steve Ravet > > ARM, INC > > steve.ravet@xxx.com > > www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:58:43 -0600 Subject: RE: Electric fuel pressure gauge. The oil pressure sender is a sliding contact on a resistance element so if you used it in a gas situation and the element failed the potential for explosion exists. The new sensor is probably intrinsically safe rated and a transducer type (0-5 volt or 4 to 20 MA) to reduce the chance of explosion. My $.02 Don > riginal Message----- > From: d houlton x0710 [SMTP:tc75918@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:59 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Electric fuel pressure gauge. > > Anybody seen the new electric fuel pressure gauges from AutoMeter? The > white faced UltraLite models? I'd like to get one for in-cab mounting, > but they're absurdly expensive. About $190, while the electric oil > pressure gauges are much more reasonable at about $60 maybe? (don't > remember for sure) > > So, anybody know why they're gouging so bad for the fuel gauges? I > called and they said something about the sender being different. Why > couldn't they just use the oil pressure setup and change the face to > say "fuel" instead of "oil"? Is there really any reason you wouldn't > want to use the oil pressure sender in a fuel line? They're both > 0 - 100 psi BTW. > > thanks > --Dan > houlster@xxx.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/Amigo/amigo.htm ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:09:12 EST Subject: Re: Plugs for flare fittings? In a message dated 2/5/99 8:28:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, steve.ravet@xxx.com writes: << f I wanted to remove the AIR pump on my V8 S-10 conversion, then I'd have to find some flare plugs to plug the holes in the exhaust manifold where the AIR connects, right? Any suggestions on where to find something like that? I've called plumbing and A/C suppliers in my area and can't come up with anything. A few places told me that if they had them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they work? The manifold is cast iron and the AIR tubes are stainless. Will brass take the heat cycling and temps? I know I could replace the manifold also, but I'd rather just plug the one I have. thanks, --steve >> Brass should be fine, besides, it wont rust to the manifold and you can pull them out if needed. Brass nuts have been used on exaust manifolds before because they cold be removed later without rusting to the studs. Note that for future reference when installing headers or use stainless components. If you are working with a turbo, look for A286 or Inconel parts. They are high nickel alloys and are excellent for high heat and corrosive envirroment. Fred ------------------------------ From: "Steve W." Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:22:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Plugs for flare fittings? Steve, If you plan on not putting the air back on just use a standard 1/4 inch pipe plug. If you want to be able to replace it later find a couple of AIR lines and cut them up to make plugs. Or go all out and have the holes welded shut and grind them off smooth. I've used both to replace rusted manifolds on older vehicles. Steve W. >If I wanted to remove the AIR pump on my V8 S-10 conversion, then I'd >have to find some flare plugs to plug the holes in the exhaust manifold >where the AIR connects, right? Any suggestions on where to find >something like that? I've called plumbing and A/C suppliers in my area >and can't come up with anything. A few places told me that if they had >them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they >work? The manifold is cast iron and the AIR tubes are stainless. Will >brass take the heat cycling and temps? > >I know I could replace the manifold also, but I'd rather just plug the >one I have. > >thanks, >--steve > > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:35:35 -0500 Subject: Re: TC's and manual trans (was: Re: Smooth strategy) Yes, Greg is completely correct. BTW Greg, thanks for helping me out on this one. The type of vane has no impact on the torque multiplication of a coupling. Its the presence of a stator, which is stationary, that does it. Gary Derian > >Very simply, there is no way to put more torque in to an output shaft whan >what comes into the input shaft unless some part of the "contraption" puts >a reaction torque into the case. PERIOD. > >"Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction." > >Not even Einstein altered that one!! > >Regards, Greg > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:38:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Plugs for flare fittings? Any suggestions on where to find >something like that? What thread are the holes?? (Diameter & pitch) A few places told me that if they had >them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they >work? Brass be fine. Regards, Greg > >thanks, >--steve > > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:41:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #85 > >Actaully I think this is how it works. The reason it multiplies is > >much simpler, rpmin != rpmout. The easy model is more like > >rpmin*torquein = rpmout*torqueout*efficiency. I don't believe there That's a power equation - power out = power in * efficiency. > A manual tranny has a torque reaction when in other than direct drive--you > are just not aware of it, cuz the bell housing puts it into the engine and > thence into the motor mounts. OK--consider--when you have a busted motor > mount with a manual tranny--is the engine more likely to lift up off of it > in first gear or high gear when you jump the throttle?? Same principle. The > manual tranny puts its torque reaction into its case via the countershaft > (layshaft in Brit-speak) bearings when in a gear that multiplies torque. > There simply HAS GOT to be a third, reaction element for torque to either > increase or decrease in a transmission, coupling, or torque converter of > any sort. Doesn't matter what the speeds are doing, input torque, output > torque and reaction torque must sum to zero. Don't know how else to say it, > let alone be any more plain about it!! It's not a statics problem. You accelerate the oil on one side Fi = ma with the F coming from the input torque. You decelerate the oil on the other side Fo = ma. Fi depends on the distance form the center on the converter on the input side (input torque). Similarly for Fo on the output side. I don't see a need for a third reaction element. Orin. ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:16:35 -0600 Subject: RE: Plugs for flare fittings? NPT is national pipe thread and is available at ACE hardware,Handy Andy and any other type of hardware store. They go for about $.14 each in steel the brass parts are a little more. NPT is a standard thread and pitch so that's all you will need to say to get the plugs, 1/4 NPT > -----Original Message----- > From: bearbvd@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 1:38 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Plugs for flare fittings? > > > Any suggestions on where to find > >something like that? > > What thread are the holes?? (Diameter & pitch) > > A few places told me that if they had > >them, they'd only be in brass. If I can find brass ones, would they > >work? > > Brass be fine. > > Regards, Greg > > > >thanks, > >--steve > > > > > >-- > >Steve Ravet > >ARM, INC > >steve.ravet@xxx.com > >www.arm.com > ------------------------------ From: "Ord Millar" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:00:46 -0400 Subject: RE: crank position sensor 36 teeth with one missing is pretty typical. A variable reluctance sensor can be used. If you can't find one for engine application, maybe an ABS sensor would work. You can also get industrial type proximity switches, these already have the amplifiers built in so a nice digital type signal comes out. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Parker Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:52 AM To: Diy Efi Subject: crank position sensor Hi, As I've mentioned before, I'm thinking of building an ignition control computer for my Mini. I plan to use the Tim Drury article as a basis. My Mini engine does not have a crankshaft position sensor. I need to fabricate or buy a toothed wheel and aproprate sensor. Then I have to mount it somewhere. I've been thinking. The flywheel already has a ring gear for the starter motor on it. Could these teeth be used? There are somewhere in the region of 100 teeth on it, (I'm not going to count them accuratly yet). They are 9mm apart and the ends are 2mm thick. What sort of sensor could detect these? With a top engine speed of 8000 rpm, there would be around 14000 teeth going past every second, thats 70 micro seconds... I can make a divider if the computer can't keep up. I would have to use a sensor somewhere else to detect TDC, but that shouldn't be too dificult. How many teeth are necessary? I could - -- Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:49:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Newbie questions [>Will a 305 throttle body have enough cfm for my 400? Not really, but the throttle body off of a Big Block Chevy Truck would.] Big block, huh? Already sounds hard to find. I've never seen one (with efi) in a yard. What kind of truck would be most likely to have an efi big block? I used a 24' Uhaul that had a bigblock, pretty late model, but it had a Holley carb on it. [Ther is a device called an emulator that goes where the prom goes that you can edit things (using a laptop), and then burn a prom.] Ok, so that's why the prom needs read for the tables first, to load that info into the laptop so it can act like the prom. How much does one of these things cost? Thanks, Jim ------------------------------ From: "Ross Myers" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:28:40 +1100 Subject: Re: Tweak your Delco's boys!!!!. >I became very interested in this when I saw the website, so I proceeded to >e-mail the manufacturer, in order to find out if I could make use of the >product in my 88 IROC with 350TPI. Unfortunately, here's the reply I >received: > >>sorry, this is not possible. It is designed to work with a Holden Delco >ECM... Yet on their Web-site they have a link to download a CAL for a 350TPI application. We can only assume on that runs on MAP instead?. BTW - They scramble the Data so it's quite useless (unless smart folks on this list can decode). Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:53:19 -0600 Subject: RE: Newbie questions They are hard to find, but they did come in pick up trucks the main difference is the throttle plates are 2" and 350 TBI's are 1 13/16" or some where around there. I would guess you could do a little portion and polising on a 350 TBI use 454 injectors and the spacer that lifts the injectors up to get some good flow numbers. IMHO Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Yeagley [SMTP:jimyeagley@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 2:50 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Newbie questions > > [>Will a 305 throttle body have enough cfm for my 400? > > Not really, but the throttle body off of a Big Block Chevy Truck would.] > > Big block, huh? Already sounds hard to find. I've never seen one (with > efi) in a yard. What kind of truck would be most likely to have an efi > big > block? I used a 24' Uhaul that had a bigblock, pretty late model, but it > had a Holley carb on it. > > [Ther is a device called an emulator that goes where the prom goes > that you can edit things (using a laptop), and then burn a prom.] > > Ok, so that's why the prom needs read for the tables first, to load that > info into the laptop so it can act like the prom. How much does one of > these things cost? > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:01:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Tweak your Delco's boys!!!!. - -----Original Message----- From: Ross Myers To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Tweak your Delco's boys!!!!. You application is MAF, and none of the aussie 808 applications are MAF. All the 808 stuff (that I know of) is MAP. Bruce >>I became very interested in this when I saw the website, so I proceeded to >>e-mail the manufacturer, in order to find out if I could make use of the >>product in my 88 IROC with 350TPI. Unfortunately, here's the reply I >>received: >>>sorry, this is not possible. It is designed to work with a Holden Delco >>ECM... >Yet on their Web-site they have a link to download a CAL for a 350TPI >application. >We can only assume on that runs on MAP instead?. >BTW - They scramble the Data so it's quite useless (unless smart folks on >this list can decode). >Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: "Mark Romans" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:22:01 -0800 Subject: NOT efi, but software!. Hello all: In the 12/98 Issue of Chevy High Performance there is an article by Mark Stielow "Thrasher Camaro Part III. In it he mentions that the software he is using to diagram his suspension is from William Mitchell Computer Suspension Software. I can't find anything on this on the net. Anyone heard of this? Mark ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:00:28 -0500 Subject: Re: 730/808 questions - -----Original Message----- From: Guenther,Max To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:53 AM Subject: RE: 730/808 questions Not much there >>except Bruce saying he got it to work with some minor pin out stuff. With >>AUJP I got #of cyl = 0 and Max RPM =2275. Is this stuff ignored/disabled >>like the malfunction codes? I don't understand what your asking here. Bruce ------------------------------ From: Al Lipper Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:19:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Which EFI Denis, First, it's certainly easier to buy a pre-made EFI system like Holley's DFI, than to build one yourself. However, there isn't the flexibility some people want. Mostly people build their own systems because they enjoy it, and not because it provides great bennefits. The other question you raise is about whther to use an algorithm or look-up table. Basically, the answer is that for your primary fuel calculation, an equation will be too slow to re-calculate in real time. This is why everyone uses look-up tables. The other part to be away of is that each engine would require a different equation, which would potentially be derived from actual tests of the engine (data which could be used in a look-up table). Good luck. Al At 01:39 PM 2/5/99 -0800, you wrote: >I m an electronic engineer and my hobby is for sure, EFI > >I have worked with 8048,51,31... and 68hc11 > >The question is, where to start? > >Should I start with the equation on the diy-efi and do the algoritm >so recreat the wheel again, or maybe you and others have the same algo. >or the starting program ? > >Bosch put a lot engineer on the project Motronic (8051)and money and >time, so, I would be surprise that someone like me can programe easily >a 8051 to do the same job. > >It must be some compromises to do my way or yours. > >I have found 3 way to do an EFI > >-Take a GM EFI system (68hc11) or a Bosch (8051 or 48) and put my own >tables and parameters : > >the problem is :only peaple like Promotive have the expertise, the >money, >and the time to find how it works. > >-Buy a system like TEC II EFI and ignition and a dyno to put all >parameters > >-The last is , Do-it-Yourself EFI > >The last one is the one I prefer, but it maybe more expensive and >dangerous to crash an engin than the TEC-II > >What is the real reson to do all your self ? > > >Thank > >Denis djulien@xxx.ca > >1:40 Québec,Canada > > ------------------------------ From: Chris Conlon Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:00:34 -0500 Subject: RE: Electric fuel pressure gauge. At 12:58 PM 2/5/99 -0600, Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com wrote: >The new sensor is probably intrinsically >safe rated and a transducer type (0-5 volt or 4 to 20 MA) That reminds me. I've just gotten some info that's making me wonder if my fuel pump is up to snuff. I'd like to put an electric fuel pressure transducer into the fuel line. Does anyone know where I could get such a beast, now, at a reasonable price? The Motorola units for returnless fuel pressure regulation looked great, and that's where I think I'm headed eventually, but I need to get something asap just for this diagnostic purpose. TIA, Chris C. p.s. "reasonable price" is $50 or less for the transducer itself. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #92 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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