DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 14 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 115 In this issue: RE: crank position sensor MAP CONVERSIONS Re: MAP CONVERSIONS New TBI Question Re: New TBI Question Re: MAP CONVERSIONS Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... UEGO sensor heater voltage Re: New TBI Question Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Re: New TBI Question Re: New TBI Question Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... New TBI Question, again Re: New TBI Question Re: New TBI Question Re: New TBI Question, again Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Re: MAP CONVERSIONS Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Parker" Date: 13 Feb 99 23:03:47 +1200 Subject: RE: crank position sensor James Montebello wrote: >The critical question is: how quickly (under normal operation) can >the engine change speed? In nutral mine can go from 2000 rpm to 6000 in probably less than a second. At 4000 rpm it's doing 60 odd revs per second, so in about 60 revolutions it's speed tripples. Thats quite a big change per revolution, about 60 rpm per rev. In first gear it doesn't rev quite so fast, untill the tyres start spinning. If we assume that we get a reasonable idea of the engine speed at every pules from the CPS, then we would need only 6 or so to get a resolution of 10 rpm under a worst case condition. The other issue is how good the clock is on the computer. At 2000 rpm you're doing 30 odd revolutions per second. Thats 30ms per rev. One crank degree is about 90us. If you've got 12 cps pulses, one every 30 degrees, then the computer has to accuratly measure at most 2.7ms before firing the spark. Looking at an 8000rpm limit, one crank degree is 20us. If you want a 1/2 degree timing resolution then the clock has to stable enough to measure 2700us with 30us accuracy and also be able to measure 600us with 10us accuracy. The more CPS pulses you have, the shorter the maximum measured time will be. How much of an issue this is, I do not know. I do know that you do use different clocks to measure different lengths of time. A clock that has a resolution of micro seconds is not often very accurate over several seconds. - -- Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ From: "paul" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:04:21 +1100 Subject: MAP CONVERSIONS Hi All, I have a question I hope someone can answer.HOW do you convert injector ms time values from a Haltech program to a Delco fuel map which is in VE values?????? The reason is I have a V6 commodore program on my haltech which seems to work well so I would like to use it on the delco system.The Haltech is up for sale so I would like to sort the changes out before its gone.(isn't life hard having 3 systems-Delco, Haltech, Autronic) Thanks in advance. PAUL. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Harding Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:52:02 +1100 Subject: Re: MAP CONVERSIONS At 11:04 13/02/99 +1100, you wrote: >Hi All, > I have a question I hope someone can answer.HOW do you convert >injector ms time values from a Haltech program to a Delco fuel map which is >in VE values?????? The reason is I have a V6 commodore program on my >haltech which seems to work well so I would like to use it on the delco >system.The Haltech is up for sale so I would like to sort the changes out >before its gone.(isn't life hard having 3 systems-Delco, Haltech, Autronic) >Thanks in advance. PAUL. sorry, no answers to your problem... What model Haltech and how much is it going for ? ------------------------------ From: Onebil2mny@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:09:42 EST Subject: New TBI Question In a message dated 2/12/1999 10:41:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com writes: << at that time they changed the fuel pressure from 12lbs to 30 lbs and from what I have heard they use the 12lb(fuel pressure)350 injector in it's place.. >> Does anyone know of an adjustable TBI pressure regulator? Bill K ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:31:00 -0500 Subject: Re: New TBI Question - -----Original Message----- From: Onebil2mny@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 10:18 AM Subject: New TBI Question ><< at that time > they changed the fuel pressure from 12lbs to 30 lbs and from what I have >heard > they use the 12lb(fuel pressure)350 injector in it's place.. >> > > >Does anyone know of an adjustable TBI pressure regulator? Jegs 800 345-4545 I hope your not gonna just try raising your pressure that high without comparing pumps. Bruce > >Bill K > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:40:28 -0500 Subject: Re: MAP CONVERSIONS - -----Original Message----- From: paul To: diy Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 7:16 AM Subject: MAP CONVERSIONS My answer is printout each table of the haltech, and then bench run a 808, and then using a emulator, and PW meter, match the two. Bruce >Hi All, > I have a question I hope someone can answer.HOW do you convert >injector ms time values from a Haltech program to a Delco fuel map which is >in VE values?????? The reason is I have a V6 commodore program on my >haltech which seems to work well so I would like to use it on the delco >system.The Haltech is up for sale so I would like to sort the changes out >before its gone.(isn't life hard having 3 systems-Delco, Haltech, Autronic) >Thanks in advance. PAUL. > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:43:15 -0700 Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... >Well, I probably wasn't paying attention, and someone was probably >talking about this last week , but would anyone know of the >availability of a TPI manifold for the above engine? It would actually >be for a Rover 3.5 liter, but should be same-same, I think. > >TIA. >Cheers. Try to find TRACO engines (Travers & Coon, IIRC)--or their successor(s)--they used to build a lot of these motors for Can-Am cars, before Chebbys took over. Kinsler FI might have something hanging around from this era--- Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: "Ezra Hall" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:30:33 -0500 Subject: UEGO sensor heater voltage This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01BE5744.447EB5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have purchased the infamous Honda Uego sensor (P/N 36531-P07-003). I = have some info gleaned from this list, and patents with regards to using this thing, but I am not sure what the heater voltage should be. Garfield's postings say 12volts at ~1.5amps, but Ludis Langens' post on Sept 2nd, = 1998 specifies 7Volts as shown in the Honda troubleshooting manual he looked = at. DC resistance on my sensor is ~3.2ohms at room temp. After heating = for ~30sec at 5 volts, then 12volts, the resistance is ~6ohms. In free = air after heating as described the sensor puts out about 160mv, then = starts to drop as heated further. I have not enabled a feedback loop yet = as I want to ensure proper temp. Does anyone know what metal the heating = element is made of so I can look up the temp coeficient and calculate = temperature based on impedance? Or better yet, what the voltage = requirements are? Any suggestions as to detail in the following SAE articles? = (scottmo@xxx. = I am looking for details on calibrating the sensor and determening when = it is safe to apply feedback to the pumping cell. 930388 A feedback A/F control system for low emissionvehicles 920234 Universal air-fuel ratio heated exhaust gas oxygensensor and = further applications 922172 Steady state wide range air fuel ratio control 940373 Adaptive air-fuel ratio control of a spark ignitionengine 940149 Automatic control of cylinder by cylinder air fuelmixture using a = proportional exhaust gas sensor My intent is to use this sensor as a tuning tool for a product I am = developing, and to potentially offer a uego sensor based product at some = point.=20 Thanks, Ezra Hall ehall@xxx.net - ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01BE5744.447EB5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  I have purchased the infamous Honda Uego sensor (P/N = 36531-P07-003).=20 I have
some info gleaned from this list, and patents with regards to = using=20 this
thing, but I am not sure what the heater voltage should be.=20 Garfield's
postings say 12volts at ~1.5amps, but Ludis Langens' post = on Sept=20 2nd, 1998
specifies 7Volts as shown in the Honda troubleshooting = manual he=20 looked at.  DC resistance on my sensor is ~3.2ohms at room temp. = After=20 heating for ~30sec at 5 volts, then 12volts, the resistance is ~6ohms. = In free=20 air after heating as described the sensor puts out about 160mv, then = starts to=20 drop as heated further. I have not enabled a feedback loop yet as I want = to=20 ensure proper temp. Does anyone know what metal the heating element is = made of=20 so I can look up the temp coeficient and calculate temperature based on=20 impedance? Or better yet, what the voltage requirements are?
 
  Any suggestions as to detail = in the=20 following SAE articles? ( posted = these article=20 references on Nov 14th,1997). I am looking for details on calibrating = the sensor=20 and determening when it is safe to apply feedback to the pumping=20 cell.
 

930388 A feedback A/F control system for low = emissionvehicles
920234 Universal air-fuel ratio heated exhaust gas oxygensensor and = further=20 applications
922172 Steady state wide range air fuel ratio control
940373 Adaptive air-fuel ratio control of a spark = ignitionengine
940149 Automatic control of cylinder by cylinder air fuelmixture = using a=20 proportional exhaust gas sensor
 
My intent is to use this sensor as a = tuning tool=20 for a product I am developing, and to potentially offer a uego sensor = based=20 product at some point.
Thanks,
 Ezra Hall  
- ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01BE5744.447EB5E0-- ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:42:10 -0700 Subject: Re: New TBI Question >In a message dated 2/12/1999 10:41:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com writes: > ><< at that time > they changed the fuel pressure from 12lbs to 30 lbs and from what I have >heard > they use the 12lb(fuel pressure)350 injector in it's place.. >> > > >Does anyone know of an adjustable TBI pressure regulator? > >Bill K Barry Grant Fuel Systems. Greg ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:09:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... > > Try to find TRACO engines (Travers & Coon, IIRC)--or their > successor(s)--they used to build a lot of these motors for Can-Am cars, > before Chebbys took over. Kinsler FI might have something hanging around > from this era--- you are probably going to have to make it try gettign a Hilborn or similar and make a custom top for it live ------------------------------ From: Mike Morrin Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:31:22 +1300 Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... At 10:04 pm 12/02/99 -0700, Michael D. Porter wrote: > >Well, I probably wasn't paying attention, and someone was probably >talking about this last week , but would anyone know of the >availability of a TPI manifold for the above engine? It would actually >be for a Rover 3.5 liter, but should be same-same, I think. > IIRC, the Rover manifolds (try a Range Rover TPI manifold) will fit Buick 215 heads but not Oldsmobile. I presume the converse is also true. regards, Mike ------------------------------ From: Onebil2mny@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:45:53 EST Subject: Re: New TBI Question In a message dated 2/13/1999 10:57:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp@xxx.net writes: << I hope your not gonna just try raising your pressure that high without comparing pumps. Bruce >> Actually, I have recently installed a 91 Caprice ECM, with 91 Caprice injectors on a 90 350 from a suburban. I am having what appears to be a lean condition on sudden throttle movement (goosing it). I still need to go back over the install to check the basics as it will idle now, and take throttle (thanks to everyone who pointed out my too small injector problem). I need to check base timing, and stuff like that. BTW, if anybody has any other ideas, let me know! Bill K ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:08:20 -0500 Subject: Re: New TBI Question - -----Original Message----- From: Onebil2mny@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: Re: New TBI Question >Actually, I have recently installed a 91 Caprice ECM, with 91 Caprice >injectors on a 90 350 from a suburban. One more time please, What is the color code on the Caprice injectors? If that is the 6965 (?), i might be off a number, anyway it is a lean dude in some applications, and has a lean cruise feature. I am having what appears to be a lean >condition on sudden throttle movement (goosing it). I still need to go back >over the install to check the basics as it will idle now, and take throttle >(thanks to everyone who pointed out my too small injector problem). I need to >check base timing, and stuff like that. BTW, if anybody has any other ideas, >let me know! I'd say get the tuning doc+txt from FTP at 332 just for grins. > >Bill K > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:16:58 -0500 Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Didn't the Rover variants have Lucas fuel injection? Those should be more plentiful than really old stuff. I know that Hilborn made manifolds way back. Gary Derian > >Well, I probably wasn't paying attention, and someone was probably >talking about this last week , but would anyone know of the >availability of a TPI manifold for the above engine? It would actually >be for a Rover 3.5 liter, but should be same-same, I think. > >TIA. >Cheers. ------------------------------ From: Onebil2mny@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:27:38 EST Subject: New TBI Question, again In a message dated 2/13/1999 3:45:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp@xxx.net writes: << One more time please, What is the color code on the Caprice injectors? If that is the 6965 (?), i might be off a number, anyway it is a lean dude in some applications, and has a lean cruise feature. >> Argh, I just installed them, and didn't note the color. Should have remembered that from the last time I guess. Anyway, they are from the same vehicle as the computer (both are fresh from GM). I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the injector color at this point, unless they might need a different pressure? But, even if this is so it will lean cough on sudden throttle during warm up even with the return line pinched off. It does go in to closed loop at this point, and after warm up the cough all but dissapears. When warm it does have an ugly spot, just off idle. Kinda like it looses TPS, but that checks OK. I'll pull the injector top tommorow morning, let ya know the colors. Thanks! Bill K ------------------------------ From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:16:51 EST Subject: Re: New TBI Question JET sells one......714-848-5515 In a message dated 2/13/99 7:13:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, Onebil2mny@xxx.com writes: << Does anyone know of an adjustable TBI pressure regulator? Bill K >> ------------------------------ From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:22:09 EST Subject: Re: New TBI Question Did you hook up the air temp sensor?????? - -Carl Summers In a message dated 2/13/99 11:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, Onebil2mny@xxx.com writes: << Actually, I have recently installed a 91 Caprice ECM, with 91 Caprice injectors on a 90 350 from a suburban. I am having what appears to be a lean condition on sudden throttle movement (goosing it). I still need to go back over the install to check the basics as it will idle now, and take throttle (thanks to everyone who pointed out my too small injector problem). I need to check base timing, and stuff like that. BTW, if anybody has any other ideas, let me know! Bill K >> ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:58:50 -0500 Subject: Re: New TBI Question, again - -----Original Message----- From: Onebil2mny@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: New TBI Question, again ><< One more time please, What is the color code on the Caprice injectors? > If that is the 6965 (?), i might be off a number, anyway it is a lean dude > in some applications, and has a lean cruise feature. >> > > >Argh, I just installed them, and didn't note the color. Should have >remembered that from the last time I guess. Anyway, they are from the same >vehicle as the computer (both are fresh from GM). I'm not sure I understand >the relevance of the injector color at this point, unless they might need a >different pressure? Huge difference in how a 55 to 65 acts, never mind if the calibration is for the wrong one of the two. If you have orther than the ones mentioned ie green whites, you'll never be happy. But, even if this is so it will lean cough on sudden >throttle during warm up even with the return line pinched off. Dead heading pump raises pressure, and lowers volume, doesn't mean much. Now if you put a guage on and the pressure doesn't drop and it does that, then you know they are too small or calibration is off. Bruce It does go in >to closed loop at this point, and after warm up the cough all but dissapears. >When warm it does have an ugly spot, just off idle. Kinda like it looses TPS, >but that checks OK. I'll pull the injector top tommorow morning, let ya know >the colors. Thanks! > >Bill K > ------------------------------ From: JCsDOOR@xxx.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:01:08 EST Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... I must have been sleeping. The dealer I work for also sells rovers I just got injectors and fuel rail off an eng. going back to bone yard. seems like I saw a manifold laying a roundin the back room. Ill look Monday. Jim Crance Colorado springs CO. ------------------------------ From: "paul" Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:14:45 +1100 Subject: Re: MAP CONVERSIONS Hi Matt, I am selling a E6GM Haltech For about $1000 I can supply sensors as well.It is from the gemini which is featured on you web page.(and yes the car is still for sale too) Bye .PAUL - ---------- > From: Matthew Harding > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: MAP CONVERSIONS > Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 11:52 PM > > At 11:04 13/02/99 +1100, you wrote: > >Hi All, > > I have a question I hope someone can answer.HOW do you convert > >injector ms time values from a Haltech program to a Delco fuel map which is > >in VE values?????? The reason is I have a V6 commodore program on my > >haltech which seems to work well so I would like to use it on the delco > >system.The Haltech is up for sale so I would like to sort the changes out > >before its gone.(isn't life hard having 3 systems-Delco, Haltech, Autronic) > >Thanks in advance. PAUL. > > sorry, no answers to your problem... What model Haltech and how much is it > going for ? ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:41:44 -0700 Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... JCsDOOR@xxx.com wrote: > > I must have been sleeping. The dealer I work for also sells rovers I just got > injectors > and fuel rail off an eng. going back to bone yard. seems like I saw a manifold > laying a roundin the back room. Ill look Monday. Thanks, Jim... at the moment, I am just speculating... contemplating buying a TR8 with a carbureted engine, on which the carburetor is not doing too well... thought FI might be a simpler solution to the problem. Someone else had suggested here a Rover manifold, which had not occurred to me at all--I'm not on the Range Rover list. I don't have great hopes for the Lucas fuel injection which might be installed on the manifold--I'd much prefer to adapt domestic injection, if only for the price advantage, and the likelihood of getting an aftermarket system which would be programmable. But, if there is a manifold available, I am interested... at the right price, of course. Cheers, and thanks. ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:44:39 -0700 Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Mike Morrin wrote: > > IIRC, the Rover manifolds (try a Range Rover TPI manifold) will fit Buick > 215 heads but not Oldsmobile. I presume the converse is also true. A good suggestion, Mike. Someone suggested he might have the same kicking around in the shop. Cheers. ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:56:45 -0700 Subject: Re: B-O-P 215 cu in V-8 question.... Gary Derian wrote: > > Didn't the Rover variants have Lucas fuel injection? As someone suggested, yes--Range Rover Lucas injection. I would prefer to avoid Lucas injection, except for the possibility of procuring the base manifold, as someone has suggested. Late TR8s did have an option for fuel injection, but this one does not have the appropriate manifold, and I would prefer to avoid a Lucas system, if possible, not only for the sake of cost, but for reliability, as well. > Those should be more > plentiful than really old stuff. I know that Hilborn made manifolds way > back. I looked around for Kinsler equipment and Hilborn stuff, without much success. The suggestion that I find a late TR8 FI manifold or a Range Rover FI manifold seem good suggestions. Cheers. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #115 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".