DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 16 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 117 In this issue: GMP4 MPU information 1227747 TBI related (long) Re: AFM to MAP Bosch motronic Re: 1227747 TBI related (long) Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: Bosch motronic Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: 808 QQQ's next QQ Re: GMP4 MPU information AW: Bosch motronic Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: [Fwd: Bins] Re: GMP4 MPU information Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: GMP4 MPU information Re: 808 QQQ's next QQ Slow admin last week... Re: TBI questions Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: Toluene/Tollex Re: TBI questions See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ludis Langens Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 04:37:26 -0800 Subject: GMP4 MPU information The architecture of the GMP4 processor chip (used in the GM P4 generation of ECMs) is almost the same as a Motorola 68HC11 with the following exceptions: Bits 7 and 6 of the CCR (S and X in an 'HC11) always read as 1's. The STOP instruction ($CF) is missing. The XGDX instruction ($8F) is missing. The XGDY instruction ($18 8F) is missing. The interrupt vector map is: $FFF0 SWI instruction $FFF2 Internal interrupt (UART & periodic interrupt) $FFF4 External interrupt $FFF6 Illegal instruction $FFF8 Bus reset (any read or write to $6000 through $6FFF) $FFFA Watchdog reset $FFFC Clock monitor reset $FFFE Power on and external reset None of the 'HC11 I/O is present. The GMP4 has it's own I/O registers mapped to $4000 through $400F. On-chip SRAM exists from $0000 through $01FF. $0000 through $00FF is retained by a standby power supply. Data in $0100 through $01FF will be lost when the main power supply shuts off. An MPU with the part number 16034980 was used to collect the above data. Several other part numbers are used interchangeably. They may have differences. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Geoff Potter Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:19:57 -0500 Subject: 1227747 TBI related (long) Ok, now that I've got your attention. This is what I need: Either I need to get a chip programmed for 80 #/hr injectors for my engine or I need to find a set of 57 #/hr injectors that will fit my Holley OE replacement TBI. Here's the engine combo: stock 5.7 L short block LT1 cam from 93 LT1 F-body heads:(041 casting) opened to 2.02/1.60 incl. studs and guide plates Holley TBI intake for above mentioned Holley TBI I was told by Howell that a stock calibration altered for the 80 #/hr injectors would work but I went through 3 of theirs with 0 success. Unfortunate for me, their lead prom programmer died just before I started talking to them and the guy that replaced him was very green. I lost $150 to them (non refundable). To make a long story short, the new guy leaned the engine out too much and the car wouldn't even pull itself down the road. I replaced the chip and ECM with one given to me by a friend and the car runs great, but it's way too rich. It just burns mega doses of gas now. At this point, I'm at a loss and I don't have time to try and figure out the tables on this ECM. I'm open to suggestions of where to go to get this done or if someone on the list wants to tackle it for a reasonable fee and will back up their work with a satisfaction guarantee, I'll give you a try. Thanks for taking time out to read my long mail. Befuddled, Geoff P ------------------------------ From: John Andrianakis Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:13:33 +0200 Subject: Re: AFM to MAP WILMAN wrote: > > I am trying to remove the airflow meter on my Bosch Motronic system and > replace > it with a MAP sensor. Has anybody done this before? Could anybody advise on > > the wiring? Is the output from the AFM similar to MAP, in terms of voltage > changes? > > Wilman Voltage outputs is usually the same 0-5v. But the afm measures volume(flapper door style) or mass(heated wire or film) while the map measures absolut manifold pressure. To use the map to provide the ecu with a signal similar to the afm you must take into account rpm and air temp(for replacing mass airflow sensor) and use an equation or better yet a lookup table for the conversion. I think all this can be accompliced with microcontroller based circuit. An idea to get values for the lookup table would be to datalog the outputs of both sensors while running the car along with rpm. Good luck. John Andrianakis. ------------------------------ From: tv@xxx. Voigt) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:58:59 +0100 Subject: Bosch motronic I'm currently learning the basics of efi for turbo engines with the Bosch motronic of the Porsche 944 turbo. Are there any public resources available about this (outdated) module ? TIA, Thomas Voigt ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:17:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: 1227747 TBI related (long) > Ok, now that I've got your attention. This is what I need: Either I > need to get a chip programmed for 80 #/hr injectors for my engine or I > need to find a set of 57 #/hr injectors that will fit my Holley OE > replacement TBI. Here's the engine combo: Aren't those the same as GM OEM injectors? If so, you might check AutoZone/AdvAuto/PepBoys. I got my 55#ers (90 Chevy PU w/350) for ~$70ea. Dunno if they're new, reconditioned, or what, but they're working so I'm happy. - -greg PS--where are you located? ------------------------------ From: Doug Mansfield Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:21:29 -0500 Subject: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Help. I am into the buying stage of my EFI project. I need a GM 730 ECM. But I would prefer a 727 since I need it to be weather proof. If I get a 727, I will need the memcal from a 4 cylinder application. Can anyone help? Where can I get ECM's. I don't really have a good local salvage yard. Is there anywhere I could buy a used/new/reconditioned unit without paying a huge core charge? Does anyone have any of these around and want to get rid of them? Doug ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:49:52 EST Subject: Re: Bosch motronic Have you already dumped both chips for analysis? I may be able to assist.. Let me know what you've done so far.. I believe you have two 2732 roms, correct? Mike V > I'm currently learning the basics of > efi for turbo engines with the Bosch > motronic of the Porsche 944 turbo. > > Are there any public resources available > about this (outdated) module ? > ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:22:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Doug Mansfield wrote: > Where can I get ECM's. I don't really have a good local salvage yard. Is > there anywhere I could buy a used/new/reconditioned unit without paying a > huge core charge? Does anyone have any of these around and want to get rid I got my '747 from Peer's Used Auto Parts in WV. For $50+shipping it was on my kitchen table...(no core charge). E-mail was RPeer37631@xxx. $0.02 - -greg ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:52:22 -0500 Subject: Re: 808 QQQ's next QQ - -----Original Message----- From: Stuart Bunning To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 12:00 AM Subject: Re: 808 QQQ's Which leads to the next question, anyone know what 0009 is for?. THANKS Bruce >location C00A is cyl select not C009 >>I've got a problem, (ok, ok, but one you can help with), on the Aussie >>808 using the ASBX bin file, I'm not totally sure which is the cyl sel. ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:58:21 -0500 Subject: Re: GMP4 MPU information Ludis, You have any info as to whether the GM P5 differs from the "standard" motorola HC11F1 and where? Thanks, Dave At 04:37 AM 2/15/99 -0800, you wrote: >The architecture of the GMP4 processor chip (used in the GM P4 >generation of ECMs) is almost the same as a Motorola 68HC11 with the >following exceptions: > >Bits 7 and 6 of the CCR (S and X in an 'HC11) always read as 1's. >The STOP instruction ($CF) is missing. >The XGDX instruction ($8F) is missing. >The XGDY instruction ($18 8F) is missing. > >The interrupt vector map is: > $FFF0 SWI instruction > $FFF2 Internal interrupt (UART & periodic interrupt) > $FFF4 External interrupt > $FFF6 Illegal instruction > $FFF8 Bus reset (any read or write to $6000 through $6FFF) > $FFFA Watchdog reset > $FFFC Clock monitor reset > $FFFE Power on and external reset > >None of the 'HC11 I/O is present. The GMP4 has it's own I/O registers >mapped to $4000 through $400F. > >On-chip SRAM exists from $0000 through $01FF. $0000 through $00FF is >retained by a standby power supply. Data in $0100 through $01FF will be >lost when the main power supply shuts off. > > >An MPU with the part number 16034980 was used to collect the above data. >Several other part numbers are used interchangeably. They may have >differences. > >-- >Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com >Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: tv@xxx. Voigt) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:18:48 +0100 Subject: AW: Bosch motronic Yes - I have dumped both chips. A 2732 in the KLR unit and a 2764 in the DME. Started with a 8051 disassembler on the DME code. Worked fine so far but it would help if I could get some additional information about the I/O ports and their meaning. Thomas > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]Im Auftrag von > ECMnut@xxx.com > Gesendet am: Montag, 15. Februar 1999 17:08 > An: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Betreff: Re: Bosch motronic > > Have you already dumped both chips for analysis? > I may be able to assist.. Let me know what you've > done so far.. I believe you have two 2732 roms, correct? > Mike V > > > I'm currently learning the basics of > > efi for turbo engines with the Bosch > > motronic of the Porsche 944 turbo. > > > > Are there any public resources available > > about this (outdated) module ? > > > ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:37:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Gregory A. Parmer wrote: > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:22:10 -0600 (CST) > From: Gregory A. Parmer > To: Do-it-Yourself Fuel Injection Mailing List > Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Doug Mansfield wrote: > > Where can I get ECM's. I don't really have a good local salvage yard. Is > > there anywhere I could buy a used/new/reconditioned unit without paying a > > huge core charge? Does anyone have any of these around and want to get rid > > I got my '747 from Peer's Used Auto Parts in WV. For $50+shipping it > was on my kitchen table...(no core charge). E-mail was RPeer37631@xxx. > $0.02 > -greg cool thanks for the pointer( I was curious but didn't ask) is the wiring harness for these ecms seperate from the chasis harness ( if not where can one be found ) Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:35:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Bins] Ross, For the Lt1 93 is one chip at 32K 94 & 95 is 2 chips at 64K each Ken Ross Myers wrote: > > >Three new bins have been uploaded to the incoming directory: > > > >> > >> aujp 92 camaro 350 auto 730 > >> aujmv.bin 89 350 camaro 250 auto > >> bafl.bin 93 LT1 cam auto.bin > > Only 32k for the LT1 Auto, that seems small?. > > Ross Myers ------------------------------ From: Ludis Langens Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:56:49 -0800 Subject: Re: GMP4 MPU information "David A. Cooley" wrote: > > You have any info as to whether the GM P5 differs from the "standard" > motorola HC11F1 and where? Nope - the GMP4 info was experimentally determined, it didn't come from any "secret" GM documents. Perhaps someone with a P5 can try some experiments. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Tedscj@xxx.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:13:59 EST Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL In a message dated 2/15/99 11:45:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, pford@xxx.com writes: << is the wiring harness for these ecms seperate from the chasis harness ( if not where can one be found ) >> I don't know if you already know this but: The harness connectors for the 727 and 730 are different. If you get a 727 ECM then you need a 727 harness and the same goes for the 730. Summit has new harnesses for 730's for about $280 I think, they're made by Painless Wiring. Your best bet is to find a U-Pull It type junkyard *somewhere* and get the harness and computer from an '88 to '91 Grand Pix v6. They are the 727 type. Just get everything from the engine compartment (including the 727 ECM) and separate the EFI from the rest at home. And then you still have to find the right Memcal of course. Ted ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:26:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL - -----Original Message----- From: Tedscj@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Oh, how so, meaning what is the difference in connectors Bruce >I don't know if you already know this but: >The harness connectors for the 727 and 730 are different. If you get a 727 >ECM then you need a 727 harness and the same goes for the 730. >Ted > ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:34:20 -0500 Subject: Re: GMP4 MPU information At 11:56 AM 2/15/99 -0800, Ludis Langens wrote: >"David A. Cooley" wrote: >> >> You have any info as to whether the GM P5 differs from the "standard" >> motorola HC11F1 and where? > >Nope - the GMP4 info was experimentally determined, it didn't come from >any "secret" GM documents. Perhaps someone with a P5 can try some experiments. I have a spare one from a boneyard... Suggestions welcome! =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Stuart Bunning Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:34:53 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: 808 QQQ's next QQ Does this ring a bell. ******************************** We're going to be changing the format, and pace a little. With all that's been written time, and time again, I've convinced that anyone who has been following this and the 101 series know's that it's for educational purposes, and the warning about using the info., if not please refer to the prior 101/808 postings. Today, were just gonna do some quick stuff that starts at the beginning of the bin file. 0000+1 is the Prom ID, 0002+3 is the date code, 0004+5 Seq, 0006+7 is the checksum, 0008 is the program ID, 0009 is for options A, 000A is Option B (TBI-6-8 cyl select), 000B,C+D, look to be rpm min speeds for ign, A/F control. As time permits, and as more people work with this info we might revisit some addresses, and better explain them. So this is 10 switches/settings, 268 to go.. As a reminder you all the prior mentioned material, the info at 332 for delco_edit, the asbx series of bins, and all the prior postings. ie if you want to know the cyl selects then look at asbx 6 and 8 and compare 000A. Again after reading all of this if you have any questions please e-mail off list, and we'll go over it. If several folks don't get it then I'll do an amendment, but please lets keep the list traffic down so those that are trying to archive the material later can get the distilled version, Cheers Bruce nacelp@xxx.net Also you don't need to include the whole text inna reply to me, just a couple lines will suffice. At 10:52 AM 15/2/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stuart Bunning >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 12:00 AM >Subject: Re: 808 QQQ's > >Which leads to the next question, anyone know what 0009 is for?. >THANKS >Bruce > > >>location C00A is cyl select not C009 > >>>I've got a problem, (ok, ok, but one you can help with), on the Aussie >>>808 using the ASBX bin file, I'm not totally sure which is the cyl sel. > > > Stuart Australia 1 * 1988 VN Commodore Buick 3.8l V6 (Aussie GM Vehicle 808) 1 * 1976 Chrysler Charger 4.3l Hemi 6 with DELCO P4 808 1 * Bench ECU for testing and playing 808 Email: stuart@xxx.au - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:16:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slow admin last week... Sorry about any slow admin last week, I was out of town and had expected to be able to use one of those free 100 hour AOL accounts... turns out there was no local AOL number, so I was extremely limited in what I could do. Back to normal now :) Orin, List admin. ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:33:08 -0800 Subject: Re: TBI questions Thanks! I checked with my parts guy, and 17087021 was used on an 87-89 7.4litre (454) code N engine. If you wouldn't mind, what are are the GM numbers engraved on the top flats of the injectors? They should be visible without having to remove the injectors from the body. Walt. - -----Original Message----- From: Fran and Bud To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 5:42 PM Subject: Re: TBI questions >I have one BBC TBI (2") that I believe is pretty early - had the hot water >heated adapter that opened out to match Q-jet manifold. The injectors in it >are Maroon (Dark Red?) - Lt.(Baby) Blue. > >Your parts guy may be able to tell what its original application was from >the Production Number on the throttle body casting - PN17087021. I have >never attempted to find out what it was from. > > >---------- >>From: "Walter Sherwin" >>To: >>Subject: Re: TBI questions >>Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999, 2:47 AM >> > >>>>From the archives... >>> GM TBI >>>There is a color coding on the top of the injector, in the >>>center of where the electrical connector goes, that does >>>wear off, but is the flow rate code? >>> Grn/Wht 305 CID eng about 40 #/hr >>> Org/Blk 350 PU about 55 #/hr >>> Yel/Brn 350 Cop Car about 65 #/hr >>> Blu/Blk Late BBC PU about 80 #/hr >>> EarlyBBC PU about 90 #/hr >>> Purple?? >> >> >> >> >>Now I am confused. I have two sets of what are supposed (??) to be 80 #/Hr >>BBC TBI injectors, in my hand. One set has blue/black markings, and this >>number etched into it, GM17084304RPD. The other set has orange/black >>markings, and has this number etched into it, GM5235206*RPD. >> >>Are these the same? Which one is the 80 BBC injector? Has my parts guy >>goofed up? Anyone got some advice? >> >> >>Thanks; >>Walt. >> ------------------------------ From: Tedscj@xxx.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:33:35 EST Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL In a message dated 2/15/99 4:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp@xxx.net writes: << Oh, how so, meaning what is the difference in connectors Bruce >I don't know if you already know this but: >The harness connectors for the 727 and 730 are different. If you get a 727 >ECM then you need a 727 harness and the same goes for the 730. >Ted > >> I meant where they connect to the ECM, not where they connect to all the other sensors. The 727 ECM has 4 connectors. The best I can remember, they are all about the same color (red) and size and are about 4 pin-rows deep, kinda closer to square shaped than the 3 long, thin rectangular shaped connectors of the 730. Ted ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:36:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Toluene/Tollex Thanks James, Finally got a reply from the supplier today (never thought I'd hear from them which was why I mailed the list), they didn't want to give me any specific details on Tollex. But they did say that due to its vastly different composition to Toluene it would not be suitable as an octane booster. So I'll keep looking for a cheap supplier of toluene or Xylene, I would use MTBE but isn't it rather expensive compared to Toluene and Xylene ? rgds Dan dzorde@xxx.au >If you can get me the UPAC nomenclature I can tell you exactly what the >difference is. UPAC=union of pure and applied chemists >Toluene for example is methyl benzene, geez, I hope I'm remembering that >right :) >Or a chemical formula, might help. toluene is C7H9 at least it will tell >me if there is any oxygens or nitrogens in it for example. Problem is, >if it's significantly different it's octane rating will be different as >well. Flat aromatics like benzene, toluene and phenols aren't the >greatest octane boosters. They tend to be the culprits when we talk >about a 'gummed' up carb. or injectors. Is there something about methyl >t-butylether (MTBE) that you don't like? >HTH >jw > > ------------------------------ From: "Fran and Bud" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:28:15 +0000 Subject: Re: TBI questions Engraved number is GM 5235231*RPD and on opposite side is 2038 GM. Identical markings on both injectors. - ---------- >From: "Walter Sherwin" >To: >Subject: Re: TBI questions >Date: Tue, Feb 16, 1999, 5:33 AM > >Thanks! I checked with my parts guy, and 17087021 was used on an 87-89 >7.4litre (454) code N engine. If you wouldn't mind, what are are the GM >numbers engraved on the top flats of the injectors? They should be visible >without having to remove the injectors from the body. > >Walt. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Fran and Bud >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 5:42 PM >Subject: Re: TBI questions > > >>I have one BBC TBI (2") that I believe is pretty early - had the hot water >>heated adapter that opened out to match Q-jet manifold. The injectors in >it >>are Maroon (Dark Red?) - Lt.(Baby) Blue. >> >>Your parts guy may be able to tell what its original application was from >>the Production Number on the throttle body casting - PN17087021. I have >>never attempted to find out what it was from. >> >> >>---------- >>>From: "Walter Sherwin" >>>To: >>>Subject: Re: TBI questions >>>Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999, 2:47 AM >>> >> >>>>>From the archives... >>>> GM TBI >>>>There is a color coding on the top of the injector, in the >>>>center of where the electrical connector goes, that does >>>>wear off, but is the flow rate code? >>>> Grn/Wht 305 CID eng about 40 #/hr >>>> Org/Blk 350 PU about 55 #/hr >>>> Yel/Brn 350 Cop Car about 65 #/hr >>>> Blu/Blk Late BBC PU about 80 #/hr >>>> EarlyBBC PU about 90 #/hr >>>> Purple?? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Now I am confused. I have two sets of what are supposed (??) to be 80 >#/Hr >>>BBC TBI injectors, in my hand. One set has blue/black markings, and this >>>number etched into it, GM17084304RPD. The other set has orange/black >>>markings, and has this number etched into it, GM5235206*RPD. >>> >>>Are these the same? Which one is the 80 BBC injector? Has my parts guy >>>goofed up? Anyone got some advice? >>> >>> >>>Thanks; >>>Walt. >>> > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #117 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".