DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 17 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 119 In this issue: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL 92 tracker ecu re: 95 LT1 PCM (16188051) uses a 16202476 MCU !! Re: PWM fuel pump multimeter advice needed Re: multimeter advice needed Re: multimeter advice needed Re: multimeter advice needed Re: Air Filter Pontiac Fiero/Firebird RE: multimeter advice needed Re: multimeter advice needed Re: multimeter advice needed 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: multimeter advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed RE: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed RE: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Re: PWM fuel pump See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Mansfield Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:09:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL Paul Tholey wrote: >I only play around with the EFI stuff a very little. I don't even know > what a 727 ecm is really. But I looked down, literally, and there is one > leaning next to my Pentium. It is yours for $25. I think I bought it one > time thinking it was a 747. I lost out, $25, and that is what I have into > it. I also have a 730 ecm, with a complete harness. If you have any > interesst let me know. > Now for a more exciting question. What are you building? I'll take it! Just let me know where to send the check. As far as what I am doing... I am attempting to build an EFI system for a '71 Harley Davidson. I have been discussing it with Bruce offline a bit. But maybe someone else may have experience. How do I tame the vacuum pulses at low engine speeds so that the MAP is usable? Doug Mansfield ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:51:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Paul Tholey wrote: > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:05:26 -0500 > From: Paul Tholey > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL > > Doug, > I only play around with the EFI stuff a very little. I don't even know > what a 727 ecm is really. But I looked down, literally, and there is one > leaning next to my Pentium. It is yours for $25. I think I bought it one > time thinking it was a 747. I lost out, $25, and that is what I have into > it. I also have a 730 ecm, with a complete harness. If you have any > interesst let me know. I'd be interested in the 730 and harnes > Now for a more exciting question. What are you building? > > Paul Tholey > > >I am into the buying stage of my EFI project. I need a GM 730 ECM. But I > >would prefer a 727 since I need it to be weather proof. If I get a 727, I > >will need the memcal from a 4 cylinder application. Can anyone help? > > > >Where can I get ECM's. I don't really have a good local salvage yard. Is > >there anywhere I could buy a used/new/reconditioned unit without paying a > >huge core charge? Does anyone have any of these around and want to get rid > >of them? > > > >Doug > > > > > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Bill Edgeworth Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:16:30 -0800 Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL What do you want for the 730 and harness? Paul Tholey wrote: > Doug, > I only play around with the EFI stuff a very little. I don't even know > what a 727 ecm is really. But I looked down, literally, and there is one > leaning next to my Pentium. It is yours for $25. I think I bought it one > time thinking it was a 747. I lost out, $25, and that is what I have into > it. I also have a 730 ecm, with a complete harness. If you have any > interesst let me know. ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:22:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL I am also interested! Price? Andy - ---Pat Ford wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Paul Tholey wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:05:26 -0500 > > From: Paul Tholey > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: Re: Needed: 727 and 730 4 cylinder MEMCAL > > > > Doug, > > I only play around with the EFI stuff a very little. I don't even know > > what a 727 ecm is really. But I looked down, literally, and there is one > > leaning next to my Pentium. It is yours for $25. I think I bought it one > > time thinking it was a 747. I lost out, $25, and that is what I have into > > it. I also have a 730 ecm, with a complete harness. If you have any > > interesst let me know. > > I'd be interested in the 730 and harnes > > > > Now for a more exciting question. What are you building? > > > > Paul Tholey > > > > >I am into the buying stage of my EFI project. I need a GM 730 ECM. But I > > >would prefer a 727 since I need it to be weather proof. If I get a 727, I > > >will need the memcal from a 4 cylinder application. Can anyone help? > > > > > >Where can I get ECM's. I don't really have a good local salvage yard. Is > > >there anywhere I could buy a used/new/reconditioned unit without paying a > > >huge core charge? Does anyone have any of these around and want to get rid > > >of them? > > > > > >Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:30:50 -0500 Subject: 92 tracker ecu Hi All can any of you check with your favourite yards to see how much an ecu for a 92 tracker 2dr 5speed 4x4 would cost ( up here the only you I found was $400 Cdn thanks for your time Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: "Robert W. Hughes" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:45:52 -0600 Subject: re: 95 LT1 PCM (16188051) uses a 16202476 MCU !! According to what little information I have, there exists a SFI66U used on LHO 3.1L(Vin T), L82 3100 GenIII(Vin M), L32 3.4L (Vin S), and presumably others since then (early 90's). SFI means sequential, 66 means two GMP6 processors, and U means underhood mounting. To quote: >The dual processor consists of an "A" side and a "B" side. The "A" side >controls spark, fuel, 24x and 3x signals, fuel pump, EGR, and EVAP. The >"B" side controls IAC, fan(s), A/C, and the transmission. This information came from the "60d V-6 Powertrain Enhancement Manual" published by Service Tecnology Group of GM dated 4-94 - -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering Houston, Texas rwhughe@xxx.org ------------------------------ From: rauscher@xxx.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 13:48:36 -0500 Subject: Re: PWM fuel pump Getting back on this late... but better then never... I think your right on the money here Tom, a PIC or small micro is the way to go. Due to all the inputs required, and the fuel pressure curve desired, doing this in analog is not the way to go. I have an analog error-amp/charge-pump feedback system working, but this will only provide for a single pressure. The pressure requested is by a pot, the real pressure is fed-back via a fuel pressure sensor. This would be adequate for a TBI system. A port system would need at the least a manifold pressure sensor (MAP) adjustment also. At this point, I've gots' to get the EFI system fully operational on the car, then I can start playing more with this stuff. BobR. >rauscher@xxx.com wrote: > >> A possible better use of the PWM system will be to provide a rising >> rate fuel pressure. This will allow the pump to relax at idle, and >> to run harder as required by the right foot. Tom S. wrote: > >Bob and I are on the same wave length. I would like to see a pic driving it from a >tach lead, MAP sensor and fuel pressure sensor. I would like to see 25 psi delta @ >0-2K rpm rising to a constant 75 psi delta above 6K rpm. Use the maps to tune the >system from here.. > >This could be a stand alone unit or controlled by an analog signal from the ECU.. > >More later when we get the proto's done. > >Tom S ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: multimeter advice needed Gang, I'm looking for a digital multimeter that can also read frequency (what range I don't know, anybody have any recomendations here?) and handle current high enough to measure alt. output and starter draw so proly close to 100 Amps. Don't know if they come this high. Proly my dream meter is a fluke but I don't want to hand over my first born and perhaps an appendage too. It would be ideal if it could measure current by an inductive pick-up. Don't know if all this is possible at a reasonable price, I may be asking too much. Thanks for any and all advice, jw ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:50:33 -0600 Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed James Weiler wrote: > > Gang, > I'm looking for a digital multimeter that can also read frequency (what > range I don't know, anybody have any recomendations here?) and handle current > high enough to measure alt. output and starter draw so proly close to 100 > Amps. Don't know if they come this high. Proly my dream meter is a fluke > but I don't want to hand over my first born and perhaps an appendage too. You might get 2 things instead.... A nice multimeter and an automotive battery/starter tester. Might be cheaper that a multimeter w/inductive pickup, and it'll let you do load tests also. 100 amps will require an inductive pickup AFAIK. Be sure you don't get an "A/C only" one. I would recommend a radio shack meter, they've got a nice one for $49, but I'm not sure what kind of frequency counter options they have. Also, you want to get autorange. I saw starter/battery testers in the Northern catalog for $29 and $49. - --steve > > It would be ideal if it could measure current by an inductive pick-up. > Don't know if all this is possible at a reasonable price, I may be asking > too much. > > Thanks for any and all advice, > jw - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Wen Yen Chan Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:00:00 -0500 Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed Hello, Fluke & Tektronic meters are cheaper than you would expect (Especially if you consider the lifetime warranty). I've found that the only meters that last more than a year or two in rough usage are the Flukes & Teks. If you are looking to read 100 amps you will need a clamp type meter. Fluke makes a meter that has been designed for automotive testing (I think it is the mod. 88) but the clamp attachment is somewhat expensive. Tenma makes lower cost current clamps (~200 $cnd) which are almost as durable as the Fluke clamps. I believe the flagship Tenma meter has a data logger. good luck Wen On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, James Weiler wrote: > Gang, > I'm looking for a digital multimeter that can also read frequency (what > range I don't know, anybody have any recomendations here?) and handle current > high enough to measure alt. output and starter draw so proly close to 100 > Amps. Don't know if they come this high. Proly my dream meter is a fluke > but I don't want to hand over my first born and perhaps an appendage too. > > It would be ideal if it could measure current by an inductive pick-up. > Don't know if all this is possible at a reasonable price, I may be asking > too much. > > Thanks for any and all advice, > jw > > ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:12:44 -0500 Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, James Weiler wrote: > Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) > From: James Weiler > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Cc: eec@xxx.net > Subject: multimeter advice needed > > Gang, > I'm looking for a digital multimeter that can also read frequency (what > range I don't know, anybody have any recomendations here?) and handle current > high enough to measure alt. output and starter draw so proly close to 100 > Amps. Don't know if they come this high. Proly my dream meter is a fluke > but I don't want to hand over my first born and perhaps an appendage too. > > It would be ideal if it could measure current by an inductive pick-up. > Don't know if all this is possible at a reasonable price, I may be asking > too much. > > Thanks for any and all advice, > jw I saw a meter in the back of Electronis Now or some such it did dwell, pwm, frequency as well as the more mundane things I'll try to track do the ad ( it was a full page one as I remember) Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Ludis Langens Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:37:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Air Filter Pontiac Fiero/Firebird Gustaf Ulander wrote: > I am offered a K&N air filter for Pontiac Fiero V6 1985-88/Firebird TPI > 1985-92 for FREE, but since I have no idea how the filter looks, I don't > know if I can use it on my application. What I'm looking for is a cone > style filter or something similar. This is not a cone style filter. It is a replacement for the stock factory filter. It is a hollow cylinder that breathes inside-out. It goes into a metal housing about the size of a car A/C compressor. I'd buy it off of you if you weren't a continent away. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:09:35 -0600 Subject: RE: multimeter advice needed A Fluke 76 is a good meter for around $125. I would use a 100 Amp/ 100 MV shunt in series with the alt output and read DC millivolts as current 1 amp= 1 millivolt. So the shunt is a little more messy but a lot cheaper ($20) than a hall effect current probe . > -----Original Message----- > From: James Weiler [SMTP:james@xxx.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 1:03 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Cc: eec@xxx.net > Subject: multimeter advice needed > > Gang, > I'm looking for a digital multimeter that can also read frequency (what > range I don't know, anybody have any recomendations here?) and handle > current > high enough to measure alt. output and starter draw so proly close to 100 > Amps. Don't know if they come this high. Proly my dream meter is a fluke > > but I don't want to hand over my first born and perhaps an appendage too. > > It would be ideal if it could measure current by an inductive pick-up. > Don't know if all this is possible at a reasonable price, I may be asking > too much. > > Thanks for any and all advice, > jw ------------------------------ From: Don Holtz Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:58:39 -0800 Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed Here is an idea: Try using a current sensing resistor. They are usuaully 1mhom (1E-3 ohm), and a regular voltmeter. Put the resistor in series with the load, and measure the voltage across it. For a 1m ohm resistor, 100A would read as 100A*.001 ohm=.1V for 1A => 1A*.001ohm = 1mV. These values are readable by any resonable DMM, and the current sense resistors should be available at any industrial electronic supply shop (ie. Electrosonic in Canada). Note: I^2R=(100A)^2*(.001ohm)10W, so use at least a 10W resistor! I seem to remember that inductive current meters only work on AC, not DC! Cheers, Don Holtz =At 03:12 PM 2/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, James Weiler wrote: > >> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) >> From: James Weiler >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Cc: eec@xxx.net >> Subject: multimeter advice needed >> >> Gang, >> I'm looking for a digital multimeter that can also read frequency (what >> range I don't know, anybody have any recomendations here?) and handle current >> high enough to measure alt. output and starter draw so proly close to 100 >> Amps. Don't know if they come this high. Proly my dream meter is a fluke >> but I don't want to hand over my first born and perhaps an appendage too. >> >> It would be ideal if it could measure current by an inductive pick-up. >> Don't know if all this is possible at a reasonable price, I may be asking >> too much. >> >> Thanks for any and all advice, >> jw > >I saw a meter in the back of Electronis Now or some such it did dwell, >pwm, frequency as well as the more mundane things I'll try to track do >the ad ( it was a full page one as I remember) > > >Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > > ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:38:10 -0500 Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Don Holtz wrote: > Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:58:39 -0800 > From: Don Holtz > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed > > Here is an idea: snip > > > I seem to remember that inductive current meters only work on AC, not DC! > no there are current clampon for dc ( snap on avrs use them ) > Cheers, ------------------------------ From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:10:21 -0800 Subject: 4 cyl engine advice needed this should start a nice long thread. I need some advice on the possibility of doing an engine swap in my 77 mgb. here is the scoop. new stock, these critters put out a huge 65 bhp with something just under 1800cc. big cast iron block and head, with awful simesed intake/exhaust ports. with a better distributor, a downdraft Weber and the usual, mine is probably a little healthier. and when I finish my efi project, it'll get better yet. however it has occurred to me that a later model 4cyl might be a real idea, (and I might get a better efi in the bargain). lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, or the '63 Buick v8. and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard to find parts and lots of time. so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have heard a lot about the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. any ideas ?? thanks, Ted Stowe ------------------------------ From: Bill Edgeworth Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:24:35 -0800 Subject: Re: multimeter advice needed > I think the current sensing resistor is a good idea if you are on a budget. I > have an 200A and an 1000A Fluke Hall Effect clamp ons, they were quite > expensive. As another post stated in the long run you certainly get your > moneys worth with Fluke meters (they are all I have ever owned) you may also > want to look at Beckman but they are as equally expensive. Maybe look on ebay > there is usually quite a few meters for sale there. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:37:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed > garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the > expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard > to find parts and lots of time. > > so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have > heard a lot about > the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 > bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. Toyota 1.8 L 16v EFI or 4AGEZ SC from MR2 use mid 80s rear drive corrolla 5sp with it > > any ideas ?? if you don't want to stick to a 4 the Buick 3.8 is good material Clive ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:44:44 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed - -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 6:24 PM Subject: 4 cyl engine advice needed >lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, >or the '63 Buick v8. >and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their >garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the >expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard >to find parts and lots of time. > Having worked on one Fuego many years ago, never again for this kid. Getting parts needs to be considered. IMHO, Nissan-Toyo, good choices. Rotary?. Buick Turbo v-6 EFI Bruce >so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have >heard a lot about >the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 >bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. > >any ideas ?? > >thanks, Ted Stowe > ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:44:24 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > this should start a nice long thread. > > I need some advice on the possibility of doing an engine swap in my 77 mgb. > here is the scoop. new stock, these critters put out a huge 65 bhp with > something just under > 1800cc. big cast iron block and head, with awful simesed intake/exhaust > ports. > > with a better distributor, a downdraft Weber and the usual, mine is probably > a little healthier. > and when I finish my efi project, it'll get better yet. > > however it has occurred to me that a later model 4cyl might be a real idea, > (and I might get a better efi in the bargain). > > lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, > or the '63 Buick v8. > and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their > garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the > expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard > to find parts and lots of time. > > so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have > heard a lot about > the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 > bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. > > any ideas ?? > > thanks, Ted Stowe Ford V6 fits nice. Brookland Automotive Components in Kitchener Ont built several specials - with Ford V6, and I think also Toyota power plants. Also Ford 4cyl if I remember correctly.(Formula 2000 style engine) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:50:03 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed > lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, > or the '63 Buick v8. Heavy, heavy, heavy. While Clive suggested is very good. Toyota with a RWD Corolla transmission should work just fine, and of course, they bolt together easily enough without any bizarre fangles for engine/tranny adaptors. The first thing that popped into my mind was the Turbo 4 cyl from Ford, used in their thunderbirds of the mid to late 80's, they ran VERY well, and quite a few of them were manual trans (5-speed), drag the whole thing over with the computer and you will have a road terror based on the fantastic power to weight ratio. I haven't seen one in a while, but I don't recall the Ford turbo motor being anywhere near close to the hood of the T-bird, therefore it might very well fit into your MG. Though, there is nothing stopping you from attaching a turbo to a Toyota engine if you prefer to go that route. Just use chromoly rings in your engine, and you should be fine if you keep the compression under 9:1. > expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard > to find parts and lots of time. Another option, if you are concerned about the MGB not holding up to the additional torque of a V8, is to make from scratch a basic ladder frame - if my memory serves me the MG is not a unibody, but correct me if I'm wrong. While building a frame from scratch is fairly inexpensive (so I'm finding), its extremely time consuming if you do it yourself. I estimate I will have close to 200 hours on my chassis when I'm done, but that includes a roll cage, rear bulkhead, front bulkhead, all nice and triangulated. > the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 > bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. Stay away from the BMW 2002 engine... they are terrible IMHO. However, any of the late model engines should be fine, since all the BMW's are RWD, makes the conversion easier. I still like Clive's Toyota idea, probably will fit the easiest and certainly doable - as how many corolla's are there in a junkyard... the tranny portion of it would be cheap. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Howard, Randolph E" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:19:12 -0800 Subject: RE: 4 cyl engine advice needed Boy, I know what I would do. A nice Toyota 4A-GE 16 valve unit out of a Corolla GTS would probably drop right in. Comes with a very nice 5 spd trans too. At 115-130hp stock your B rear axle could probably cope with it OK. Lower gears would be more appropriate though as this motor likes RPM. If you want something really wild you could get a Japan import 20 valve unit at 160-170hp. Definitely would steer clear of German stuff as it is just too pricey to keep. I am sure this conversion has been done before. Try joining toymods group and posting a query on this. Find toymods at: http://www.toyota-mods.org/ > ---------- > From: Stowe, Ted-SEA[SMTP:StowT@xxx.com] > Reply To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 3:10 PM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: 4 cyl engine advice needed > > > this should start a nice long thread. > > I need some advice on the possibility of doing an engine swap in my 77 mgb. > here is the scoop. new stock, these critters put out a huge 65 bhp with > something just under > 1800cc. big cast iron block and head, with awful simesed intake/exhaust > ports. > > with a better distributor, a downdraft Weber and the usual, mine is probably > a little healthier. > and when I finish my efi project, it'll get better yet. > > however it has occurred to me that a later model 4cyl might be a real idea, > (and I might get a better efi in the bargain). > > lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, > or the '63 Buick v8. > and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their > garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the > expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard > to find parts and lots of time. > > so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have > heard a lot about > the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 > bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. > > any ideas ?? > > thanks, Ted Stowe > ------------------------------ From: "Xwiredtva" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:33:49 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed I'll second this. The 4AGE line is a good high revving and completly capable TRD designed race engine still in use in the Mid-Atlantic class racers. I had my NA revved to 9600 rpm before the engine blew. Plenty of power and without modifing the bottom end a tru 170hp is capable from them. The SC version is a little more complicated with the Supercharger but still a really good powerplant. >Toyota 1.8 L 16v EFI >or 4AGEZ SC from MR2 >use mid 80s rear drive corrolla 5sp with it > >> >> any ideas ?? > > >if you don't want to stick to a 4 the Buick 3.8 is good material Come on clive, you can't compare a 3.8 to a 1.6 DOHC Race engine. It is a good plant but 4cyl's scream when roosted! ------------------------------ From: "James Montebello" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:36:52 -0800 Subject: RE: 4 cyl engine advice needed > so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans > combos. I have heard a lot about the turbo fuego engine in the > Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 bhp engine and 4 > speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. Recent Nissan twincam fours from 2 to 2.4 liters. The 240SX can donate a rear drive 5-speed. I *think* most of the Nissan fours will bolt up to that. The 2.0 used in the Sentra SE-R and NX2000 is an especially nice engine. 140hp with hydraulic lash adjusters and a chain-driven cam. Smooth and low maintenance. I strongly considered one of these for a Europa. james montebello ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:38:38 -0700 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed >this should start a nice long thread. > >I need some advice on the possibility of doing an engine swap in my 77 mgb. >here is the scoop. new stock, these critters put out a huge 65 bhp with >something just under >1800cc. big cast iron block and head, with awful simesed intake/exhaust >ports. > >with a better distributor, a downdraft Weber and the usual, mine is probably >a little healthier. >and when I finish my efi project, it'll get better yet. > >however it has occurred to me that a later model 4cyl might be a real idea, >(and I might get a better efi in the bargain). > >lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, >or the '63 Buick v8. But where a Buick V-8 (215) will go, a Buick V-6 will go, and then a turbo :-) But, you might need a bigger tranny and rear----(and your tires might vaporize) Greg >and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their >garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the >expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard >to find parts and lots of time. > >so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have >heard a lot about >the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 >bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. > >any ideas ?? > >thanks, Ted Stowe ------------------------------ From: "Michael Shellenberger" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Hey, How about just hoping up the original engine: Larger bore, cross-flow head, and maybe a wilder street cam. I've heard of people getting 150 hp out of them... I know thats on the wild side but there is more in that 4 then the stock numbers. As far as a 5 speed: easiest is just to replace the original with an overdrive, with some work a 5-speed from a rear wheel drive supra. These are just some ideas Mike - -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 6:55 PM Subject: 4 cyl engine advice needed > >this should start a nice long thread. > >I need some advice on the possibility of doing an engine swap in my 77 mgb. >here is the scoop. new stock, these critters put out a huge 65 bhp with >something just under >1800cc. big cast iron block and head, with awful simesed intake/exhaust >ports. > >with a better distributor, a downdraft Weber and the usual, mine is probably >a little healthier. >and when I finish my efi project, it'll get better yet. > >however it has occurred to me that a later model 4cyl might be a real idea, >(and I might get a better efi in the bargain). > >lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, >or the '63 Buick v8. >and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their >garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the >expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard >to find parts and lots of time. > >so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have >heard a lot about >the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 >bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. > >any ideas ?? > >thanks, Ted Stowe > ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:00:25 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Ted, Although turbo V-6 Buicks and countless import configurations offer great performance gains, I would rather agree with Frederick about the Ford Turbo-4. Not only many T-Birds, but Mustangs and SVO Mustangs, too. Most came with Borg-Warner T-5 5spd trans, also. I don't know where you live or what kind of connections you have at yards, but you're probably sure to find this Ford setup to be waaay cheaper than imports and Buick SEFI Turbo'd 6's. The Turbo-4 was an excellent performer in my 120,000 mile GT350 Mustang, but if you want more Ford Motorsports sells cams, heads, etc for these motors. An SVO Mustang adds intercooler for more go-power, and my favorite low buck mod is a vacuum solenoid plumbed in the wastegate hose, that bleeds boost pressure to atmosphere when a switch is thrown. Instant "wow!" You'd have to look into that computer to avoid the violent "shutdown" when boost pressures go above 12-15 psi. I'm cheap, but I like to call myself practical. Jim Yeagley Member: www.indyram.org webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "Jon Fedock" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:40:05 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed There is a guy around here that has a MG ("B" I think) with a mild Ford 2300 and 5-speed (out of a Mustang). It runs *much* better than you would expect and gets 30mpg to boot. I am *not* a Ford person, but the 2300 is just about a perfect match. The guy said it "just about put itself in there." :) Jon Fedock - -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 6:25 PM Subject: 4 cyl engine advice needed | |this should start a nice long thread. | |I need some advice on the possibility of doing an engine swap in my 77 mgb. |here is the scoop. new stock, these critters put out a huge 65 bhp with |something just under |1800cc. big cast iron block and head, with awful simesed intake/exhaust |ports. | |with a better distributor, a downdraft Weber and the usual, mine is probably |a little healthier. |and when I finish my efi project, it'll get better yet. | |however it has occurred to me that a later model 4cyl might be a real idea, |(and I might get a better efi in the bargain). | |lots of people seem to be happy with putting in the 215 cu alum. rover v8, |or the '63 Buick v8. |and while I think everyone should have a v8 on an engine stand in their |garage, and I feel guilty not having one, I am not sure I can justify the |expense of putting a v8 in the mgb, (new rear, new trans, some fairly hard |to find parts and lots of time. | |so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have |heard a lot about |the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 |bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. | |any ideas ?? | |thanks, Ted Stowe | ------------------------------ From: Jason Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:52:33 -0800 Subject: Re: 4 cyl engine advice needed Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > so I am trying to think of hot 4cyl engine/5 speed trans combos. I have > heard a lot about > the turbo fuego engine in the Renaults. who does better than a cast iron 65 > bhp engine and 4 speed trans ? , I thought about a BMW 320i engine/trans. > > any ideas ?? > VW 2.0L 16v engine (134hp stock). It was designed for transverse mounting and FWD...but...can be mounted otherwise and an Audi 5-spd tranny bolts right up nicely to make it a RWD config. w/ Audi running gear. Come to think of it, you could just leave it transverse...and adapt an Audi Quattro/VW Syncro AWD set-up. That would be way beyond your project scope though (I'm assuming). I don't know how much power output you want, but the VW 2.0L 16v can put out an honest naturally aspirated 170hp in fast road trim, and can be race prepped to 400hp. Availibility and parts are plenty, and reasonable. The Motronic engine control is pretty basic and can be tweaked pretty good to yield great results. Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey T. Birt" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:51:22 -0600 Subject: Re: PWM fuel pump Hi all, I'm new on this list so this is the first post that I have seen on the subject of controlling pressure via PWM of the pump. It seems that trying to control a pump this way would cause premature failure of the pump. Generally starting a pump (of any type) is much harder on it than continuos operation. PWM would stop the pump and then restart it under load. It would be much harder on the pump to start it with 30 lb or so of pressure against it. Next, picture this scenario. Your tooling along @ 20 mph and your pump is developing (x) lbs. of pressure. You then mash the accelerator down and the ECU determines that you now need (x+y) lbs. Currently the fuel system is only @ (x) lbs., when you accelerate you are effectively lowering the restriction that your pump is developing pressure against. The duty cycle of you injector(s) go up. More fuel in the same time period equals less restriction. The pump has to compensate for the sudden loss of pressure (x) and try to build up even more pressure (x+y). This situation will lead to a lag in fuel pressure on sudden acceleration. How about making an electronically controlled pressure regulator. For instance the pressure regulator on my Suzuki is controlled via manifold pressure. It seems that one could fabricate an adjustable air bleed which would affect fuel pressure. IMHO. YMMV. Jeff Birt rauscher@xxx.com wrote: > Getting back on this late... but better then never... > > I think your right on the money here Tom, a PIC or small micro is > the way to go. Due to all the inputs required, and the fuel pressure > curve desired, doing this in analog is not the way to go. > > I have an analog error-amp/charge-pump feedback system working, but > this will only provide for a single pressure. The pressure requested is > by a pot, the real pressure is fed-back via a fuel pressure sensor. This > would be adequate for a TBI system. A port system would need at the > least a manifold pressure sensor (MAP) adjustment also. > > At this point, I've gots' to get the EFI system fully operational on the car, > then I can start playing more with this stuff. > > BobR. > > >rauscher@xxx.com wrote: > > > >> A possible better use of the PWM system will be to provide a rising > >> rate fuel pressure. This will allow the pump to relax at idle, and > >> to run harder as required by the right foot. > > Tom S. wrote: > > > >Bob and I are on the same wave length. I would like to see a pic driving it > from a > >tach lead, MAP sensor and fuel pressure sensor. I would like to see 25 psi > delta @ > >0-2K rpm rising to a constant 75 psi delta above 6K rpm. Use the maps to tune > the > >system from here.. > > > >This could be a stand alone unit or controlled by an analog signal from the > ECU.. > > > >More later when we get the proto's done. > > > >Tom S ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #119 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".