DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 25 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 133 In this issue: RE: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Plasma Jet Ignitition Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys RE: OBD II guys Re: OBD II guys Re: MAF meters and open-loop Re: MAF meters and open-loop. Re: MAF meters and open-loop.ABout Re: MAF meters and open-loop Chevy ECM question Re: MAF meters and open-loop.ABout RE: MAF meters and open-loop.ABout RE: OBD II guys Re: MAF meters and open-loop RE: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys RE: OBD II guys Re: Chevy ECM question Re: MAF meters and open-loop Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Re: OBD II guys Re: Chevy ECM question Re: Plasma Jet Ignition See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Ford Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:58:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Jim Davies wrote: > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:53:31 -0800 (PST) > From: Jim Davies > To: "'diy_efi@xxx.edu'" > Subject: RE: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys > > > > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Kurek, Larry wrote: > > > would do. Just think of when they combine GPS, data logging, and telemetry. > > Hell, break the speed limit and a ticket just shows up. Even worse, the top > > Apparently they already do this on european autobahns...pay a toll, drive, > stop and pay a toll...minion reads the time stamp and calculates the > speed. If too fast, they wave over a polizei to present a speeding ticket. what is scary is if the police can shutyou down how long until the bad guys do this ? picture this: you and your favourite car going down the road when puff the car dies you step out and someone hijacks your car or worse yet: your wife/daughter/girlfriend on the same road ... If this is going to happen will what we do be illegal (a felony) and will it be a required retofit??? Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Nico Over Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:06:40 -0500 Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Plasma Jet Ignitition Xwiredtva wrote: > > I just got mine today. There is a star washer that touches the socket part > of the plug. You take the nipple off the spark plug and it screws on it that > way. Seems like it may work loose but will see. > > That's how they hook up alright, never did have a problem though with them coming loose but only ran them for about 1000 miles. Remember not to use resistor plugs. Nico ------------------------------ From: "Xwiredtva" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:28:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys >what is scary is if the police can shutyou down how long until the bad >guys do this ? If it's got a modem it can be done in less than 30 minuites. Remeber when NASA got hacked? Did it in less then 20 mins, the hackers not me. ------------------------------ From: "Gwyn Reedy" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:21:52 -0500 Subject: RE: OBD II guys Reception is easier (technically - signal levels) than transmitting. In other words the satellite can put a good signal on you, but you don't have as strong a transmitter to transmit back. But both sending and receiving take an antenna and I'm sure most of you are clever enough to find accidental ways to impair the antenna efficiency... Of course they make tampering with that illegal. Ever hear of interference? How about a pocket transmitter (out of sight, personal equipment) that puts lots of hash noise on the downlink frequency. There is always a way. Puts me in mind of the gun ruckus - all I own is a pellet gun, but if the police can have automatic weapons, then I want to have the right to own them too. According to Lincoln it was government of the people, by the people, for the people. Now it has turned into government against the people. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida '95 BBB mailto:mgr@xxx.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of > Guenther,Max > Sent: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:20 AM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: OBD II guys > > > I might be crazy, but if GM can open your door lock and tell where you > are from a satellite, how far away can it be that they will be able to > tell what your car is doing at anytime(I know sending is different from > receiving, but half the technology is there, right now). I was told > they are working on a way to fix your memcal from the sky(via > satellite). > Max > > >---------- > >From: Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp@xxx.net] > >Reply To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >Sent: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:14 AM > >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >Subject: Re: OBD II guys > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Clarence L.Snyder > >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > >Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:06 AM > >Subject: Re: OBD II guys > > > > > >>> Seems like gm might be doing some logging about events other than what > >would > >>> be diagnostics. > >>> Somehow, I just don't like the idea of a pcm tracking my behavior. > >While > >>> I might > >>> be doing testing at a sanctioned drag strip, having the pcm log the > >events > >>> in a > >>> manner that could be construed as reckless just upsets me. > >>> > > >>Surely there is a way to refresh the log - a necessity for true > >>diagnostics. > > > >I for one certainly hope so. > >Bruce > >> > > > > > ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:59:42 EST Subject: Re: OBD II guys Wouldn't it be fun to write something outrageous to the log and take the car to the dealer for a slight miss? "let's see Mr. Smith, 50 miles ago, your SBC was at 9,700 RPM for five minutes, while driving in reverse" Just a thought Mike V > >Surely there is a way to refresh the log - a necessity for true > >diagnostics. > > I for one certainly hope so. > Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:06:15 -0800 Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop What is the "dual-pot method"? Could you expand a bit more on this? Thanks. Walt. >Dan, > >Looks like you had some time on your hands there. For a low buck approach, why >don't you use the dual-pot method to dial in the A/F ratio w/ oversize injectors >(or a high buck shelf part like: >http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm ). Or, just use the proven >Hobbs switch/cold start injector methos made famous by early A1 VW turbo kits >(Callaway, etc.). I like the former method. Run 92 pump gas, and you'll be fine. >Add an intercooler for piece of mind. Your engine has really low static >compression to start with, and I think that's saving your ass right now (after >all, you are runing 87 gas and non-intercooled w/ 7psi+ boost). > ------------------------------ From: LS Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:09:53 -0500 Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop. 1. MAFs are accurate with Turbos. 2. at the lean point you are probably reading full scale on the MAF, your computer responds by going to the internal tables. Which would create severe lean condition under boost. I do not need to tell you that it is dangerous. 3 You will have to make sure that you have an adequate fuel supply beginning with your fuel pump, and ending with injectors. Good Luck Len. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:18:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop.ABout Jason_Leone@xxx.com wrote: > > < flowing through it?>> > > You answered your own question. The Mass Air system is not ideal for > forced-induction. In fact, it's pretty damn limiting. The MAF sensor can > only put out 5V and that's it. It's really easy to max it out when you blow > through more air, and even draw through more air. It just depends on the > MAF housing diameter,intake plumbing of the vehicle, turbo characteristics, > and the air flow velocity that cooling the MAF platinum wire. I did some tests last night. From what I remeber of monitoring the MAF output pre-turbo, I think the highest voltage I got was around 4.1v and that was always a spike when I nailed it. About 3.8v was the steady state WOT voltage. I did the same tests last night with the turbo. Under boost (max about 7 psi) and WOT, the highest reading I got was around 4.3v and again that was a spike. Also, the lean cut out I described before seemed to happen right around 4.0v. Under 5 lbs boost, the voltage would stay just under 4.0v and going a little further with the throttle to trigger the WOT switch would send it up to about 4.1v or so and it would go lean. The 4.3v spike I got was hitting WOT (going from about 5 lbs boost to 7) for about one second (before backing off because it was lean). So, it appears that the MAF isn't necessarilly maxing out. Maybe the computer is? i.e. 6 lbs of boost @ 5000 rpm is about 45 - 50 hp more (mathematically anyways) than the computer expects it can ever produce. Maybe it ignores the higher MAF readings because it knows it shouldn't ever read that high? > about your Hitachi engine management system. You eventually reach the point > at which the MAF system has to be replaced, or modified. You've reached > that point, welcome to the club. Glad to be here :) > You have a few options here: > > 1) You can get an aftermarket MAF sensor (from Split Second, etc.) and have > a custom chip done (hey, go w/ larger injectors too)....or Nope. Too much and I'm not convinced the problem is my MAF. Also, I couldn't bring myself to pay $200 - $300 for a chip that isn't adjustable for future tuning and mods. > > 2) You can use something like an HKS Vein Pressure Converter (which uses > Speed Density, but sends a bogus MAF signal to your factory ECU)...or > > 3) Get serious about life, and get the real deal Speed Density based system > (TEC II, DFI, etc.). Can't bring myself to rip out the stock computer either :( If it were a sports car, project car, or race car, sure. But this is a truck and my (severely underpowered) daily driver. The turbo is mostly for better highway driveability (I can actually maintain 60 mph on a 2% grade now :) > 4) Try lowering your boost I'd rather not. I'm not sure how I could either. It's set up do deliver full boost pressure to the wastegate actuator. I could restrict it for more boost, but how would I get lower boost? Change the actuator or hook a spring to it to help it open the wastegate? > > Concerning the A/F ratio: > > Have you done the necessary fuel requirement calculations to ensure your > fuel supply is capable? Do you know the fuel pressure at the rail, the fuel > pump delivery specs(and the Voltage at the pump), injector flow specs (at > what test pressure), and the potential hp output at full boost? All these > things need to be calculated in order for you to know if you have the fuel > available....otherwise...you will run lean up top, and BOOOOOOM! Bye-bye > pistons! Er. Sort of. Stock my engine is rated at 120 hp and it uses 4, 20 lbs/hr injectors (at 40 psi). I have on order a rising rate FPR from cartech.net which I'm hoping will raise pressure enough for those brief visits to 7 or 8 lbs boost which seems to be the limit without restricting the signal to the wastegate actuator. BTW, this will have to hit quite a high fuel pressure. Like 80 psi or so for brief periods. My fuel hoses use spring clamps. Should I be replacing these with a more positive worm or screw type clamp? I've also considered an AIC (requires time or money to buy or make) or just using an on/off VW type cold start injector with a Hobbs switch to give it a fixed fuel boost at a certain boost pressure. Another option is upgrading to larger injectors. I want to get mine cleaned and balanced anyways, and swapping to larger injectors at the same time isn't too much more. I figure I can go slightly larger (like 22 lb/hr) and still keep the computer happy. Maybe a little higher (like 24 lb/hr) if I lower the base fuel pressure a little bit (from the stock 35 psi @ idle to 28 or 30 psi). Any advice on this one? If it'll work, it can make the RR FPR *much* more effective and I won't have to boost fuel pressure as high under load to get the proper fueling. I could also compensate for the larger injectors by modifying the MAF signal with a couple pots (described at http://www.autospeed.com/A_0008/P_1/article.html) I'd prefer not to buy one of the ~$300 units available to do this. The fuel pump I don't know about. I had planned on getting a fuel pressure gauge to mount in the cab once I get the new FPR in. Too expensive for the AutoMeter electric ones though. I may end up just relying on the A/F ratio meter and maybe an EGT gauge instead or use one of the cheaper digital Intellitronix ones. BTW, I'm using an AutoMeter UltraLite white faced boost/vacuum gauge. I really like the look of these things. Do they happen to make an exhaust gas temp (EGT) gauge as well in this style? What's the cost and part #? I don't see one in Jegs or Summit or AutoMeter's web site, but I've heard they do make one. Also, I surprisingly am not noticing any detonation or knocking even when I hit 6 or 7 psi boost and I'm still running cheap 87 octane and no IC yet. Stock compression ratio is 8.6:1 Timing still set to stock 12 deg BTDC at idle and jumps (I think) to about 25 off idle. Does this sound right? I expected it to be very obvious if it happens. I'm concerned that it may be happening and I just don't hear it. So, the biggest thing I'm worried about is melting a piston. The A/F meter will tell me I'm lean, but it won't tell me I'm about to melt a piston. Is monitoring an EGT gauge the best way to prevent this? thanks - --Dan ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:43:22 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop Walter Sherwin wrote: > > What is the "dual-pot method"? Could you expand a bit more on this? Thanks. > > Walt. http://www.autospeed.com/A_0008/P_1/article.html Look on page 5 or 6 I think it is. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: Bill Shaw Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:04:49 -0400 Subject: Chevy ECM question Hi guys, What ECM would I have in an '86 Camaro V6 auto? Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:10:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop.ABout On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Daniel Houlton wrote: > Jason_Leone@xxx.com wrote: > > > > < > flowing through it?>> > > > > You answered your own question. The Mass Air system is not ideal for > > forced-induction. In fact, it's pretty damn limiting. The MAF sensor can > > only put out 5V and that's it. It's really easy to max it out when you blow > > through more air, and even draw through more air. It just depends on the > > MAF housing diameter,intake plumbing of the vehicle, turbo characteristics, > > and the air flow velocity that cooling the MAF platinum wire. > > I did some tests last night. From what I remeber of monitoring the MAF > output pre-turbo, I think the highest voltage I got was around 4.1v and > that was always a spike when I nailed it. About 3.8v was the steady > state WOT voltage. > > I did the same tests last night with the turbo. Under boost (max about > 7 psi) and WOT, the highest reading I got was around 4.3v and again that > was a spike. Also, the lean cut out I described before seemed to happen > right around 4.0v. Under 5 lbs boost, the voltage would stay just under > 4.0v and going a little further with the throttle to trigger the WOT > switch would send it up to about 4.1v or so and it would go lean. The > 4.3v spike I got was hitting WOT (going from about 5 lbs boost to 7) > for about one second (before backing off because it was lean). > > So, it appears that the MAF isn't necessarilly maxing out. Maybe the > computer is? i.e. 6 lbs of boost @ 5000 rpm is about 45 - 50 hp more > (mathematically anyways) than the computer expects it can ever produce. > Maybe it ignores the higher MAF readings because it knows it shouldn't > ever read that high? I don't know about the computer in your car, but in mine (93 Z28, GM computer) there are limits on several of the sensors after which the computer takes a default value, because it believes the real value must be wrong.. I don't know if you are hitting that, but that is an option on some vehicles. If you had a scan tool hooked up, it would probably show odd things if this were happening. Of course if it hit the limit I would expect it to set some sort of code in the computer. Roger ------------------------------ From: "Falb, John" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:27:25 -0600 Subject: RE: MAF meters and open-loop.ABout Doug, I bet the FPR is going to be the answer. Assumeing you have a strong enough fuel pump. John ------------------------------ From: Marc Piccioni Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:37:30 -0700 Subject: RE: OBD II guys Don't laugh, 2 yrs ago I worked with a GPS wizard who was invited to present a paper to the SAE about how to integrate GPS into OBD III. Not only will the Dark Side know what you are doing but they will be able to find you...! - ---------- From: Guenther,Max[SMTP:Mguenther@xxx.COM] Sent: February 25, 1999 8:19 AM To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: OBD II guys I might be crazy, but if GM can open your door lock and tell where you are from a satellite, how far away can it be that they will be able to tell what your car is doing at anytime(I know sending is different from receiving, but half the technology is there, right now). I was told they are working on a way to fix your memcal from the sky(via satellite). Max >---------- >From: Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp@xxx.net] >Reply To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Sent: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:14 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: OBD II guys > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Clarence L.Snyder >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:06 AM >Subject: Re: OBD II guys > > >>> Seems like gm might be doing some logging about events other than what >would >>> be diagnostics. >>> Somehow, I just don't like the idea of a pcm tracking my behavior. >While >>> I might >>> be doing testing at a sanctioned drag strip, having the pcm log the >events >>> in a >>> manner that could be construed as reckless just upsets me. >>> > >>Surely there is a way to refresh the log - a necessity for true >>diagnostics. > >I for one certainly hope so. >Bruce >> > > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C<``0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`& !```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&$`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S M,BYE;F``,P`0`` M`"(```!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S,BYE;F5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO M:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=2<``@$+, $````G````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$5&23,S M,BY%3D``0`20$!(( #``X```#/!P(`&0`1`"(`, `$`%@xxx.$$P M,D0Y145$-T-#1#(Q,4)%.4,T-#0U-3,U-# P,# `( M`' ``0```! ```!213H@3T)$($E)(&=U>7,``@%Q``$````6`````;YA(#$: M[MD"B\S7$=*^G$1%4U0`````'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0`` M`!@```!M<&EC8VEO;FE 871T8V%N861A+FYE= `#``80DRA<] ,`!Q !!0`` M'@xxx.5$Q!54=(+#)94E-!1T])5T]22T5$5TE42$%'4%-7 M25I!4D172$]705-)3E9)5$5$5$]04D5314Y405!!4$525$]42$53045!0D]5 M5$A/5U1/24Y414=2051%1U!324Y43P`````"`0D0`0```'(%``!N!0``' H` M`$Q:1G7(5%I,_P`*`0\"%0*H!>L"@P!0`O()`@!C: K 1&@ M(&%G;] @22!W!;!K"8 >`(AI=&@=H"!'4 7P+0/P>@L1'@!H'=!W8=L$( N M=AZ0'E%T'= 34-\'D GP!4 >T JP< 20())E'J!E!@!!11V@!N!U?P5 '[ ' MX""A"X 3T G 88\3T![C(U$=T$]"1!W@-23 +@>P;P5 `B!L>:T><6P#("(" M1 K :P8`XFD-L"!K;B+Q'Z CL(\=8 A@': 7H"!D;PN N&<@8B*Q(@$EA6(B M(.T!H&PB(""A9@N 'F G<1HN*F A"H4*BVQI,00X, +1:2TQ-#3/#? ,T"R# M"UDQ-@J@`V#U$]!C!4 M+J<*ARU;###U+B9&`V$Z+ZXN)@R"'N '"E ","(0 M!,W5 05-#3RXU0/Q-72]/,%T&8 (P,8\RF^!&96)R M=0K )8 9T(D=,#$Y.K @xxx.#HZH,T4L$TUOS!=5&\W_S*;("=D:7E?#1WP;6D=$ 5 *3$%`&&\>GD=,"A2!I >X$U* M@ M8V5I($ :H+M*U!& ;$M (@(N46@FX/T7,&$B@2`B >P5"2[2FS>$P4!X!M2Y #($[CH2("UR3,B5&@(<'-D4* = M,*DYWR Y.P`T.S@xxx.#3ULA"X!?H4T'D$]0 M[&=E8]]$`$,+8%=198$83"Y357 $@2 \8YEW\BYS>*- D&XN2Y#P0&EB;6=" M=%<]8F^/_T".>/![CT".=%'S51$BDV5V(1$$("4@,['?46(# MH"$'5<=X92&X?2!S!G)N 3P&EC<_=AYH92C@%3B'$BX1TP'?#\:G43 MP"?A'*.'`B(")I'M'M!O2T A46-@xxx.#]*!)M)8 I,!& ($ %L(U7_E= ML"F A>E)U8O-* ,3T'^-`54%3T%X,%60`B >463_(Z"(09$0!2!/X9(!E6(B M$?^0TEHQ(?)C!HF4A>D+@xxx._`B"780I0'F ? M\5A1:RF \P01CO-U Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:39:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop Jason_Leone@xxx.com wrote: > > Dan, > > Looks like you had some time on your hands there. For a low buck approach, why > don't you use the dual-pot method to dial in the A/F ratio w/ oversize injectors > (or a high buck shelf part like: > http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm ). Or, just use the proven > Hobbs switch/cold start injector methos made famous by early A1 VW turbo kits > (Callaway, etc.). I like the former method. Run 92 pump gas, and you'll be fine. > Add an intercooler for piece of mind. Your engine has really low static > compression to start with, and I think that's saving your ass right now (after > all, you are runing 87 gas and non-intercooled w/ 7psi+ boost). I've waffled back and forth on the rising rate FPR. Seems people either like em or hate em. I'd prefer not to plumb in an injector or two although I guess I should be able to do that and make it still look somewhat clean. I like the dual pot to modify the MAF signal a lot and will try that after I upgrade the injectors. > >> <<> 4) Try lowering your boost >> >> I'd rather not. I'm not sure how I could either. It's set up do deliver >> full boost pressure to the wastegate actuator. I could restrict it for >> more boost, but how would I get lower boost? Change the actuator or >> hook a spring to it to help it open the wastegate?>> > > You asked how to lower boost. I'm assuming your turbo unit has an integral > wastegate, right? External? Anyway, you can do it mechanically ($$), or > electronically ($$$). The mechanical method is known as a Variablle Boost > Controller (VBC), and you can make onw from common materials and off-the-shelf > parts for about $15-$20. Tuners sell these for ~$50. Basically consists of some > pressure tubing, check valve, etc. (most parts can be purchased at any > aquarium/fish shop). The length of the hose (from wastegate to the cab) snip > > Both of the above boost control methods are totally stand-alone. No factory ECU > involvement. Yeah I know about the simple boost controllers, but they can't *lower* your boost. Then can only raise and/or accellerate the rise in boost by restricting the pressure from the compressor outlet from reaching the wastegate actuator. i.e. If it takes 8 lbs of pressure to open the waste gate, then your boost is limited to 8 lbs. Bleed off some of the signal though (say 2 lbs) and you'll be making 10 lbs boost before the wastegate actuator gets it's 8 lbs and opens. To lower my boost, I'd need to add to the boost signal. i.e., add say 2 lbs to the actuator so that at 6 lbs boost, the actuator would see 8 lbs and open. A spring is the only way I know of doing this without changing to a new actuator. > > That Cyberdyne A/F gauge, that's the one w/ the LEDs going vertically (lean on > the bottom, and rich on the top), right? Are you using a 4-wire EGO? I'm asuming > the A/F gauge just runs switched power to the heater, ground to the heater > ground, a tap to the EGO output signal, a tap to the EGO common signal, and > maybe a tap to the dash light circuit? Sound right? Do you know the MV range > values (giving you Lambda scale value and A/F ratio) for every LED on the A/F > gauge? Yep, it's a 10 LED display. I'm assuming it's set up in the standard way that each LED represents .1v and maybe buffered a little bit to give a smoother reading. My O2 sensor is a 3-wire. Power, ground and signal. The A/F meter (called Intellitronix now BTW) has 3 wires. 12v power, ground and signal. Power and ground come from the fuse box under the dash and the signal I've tapped into the wiring harness where it plugs into the ECM behind the driver's kick panel. > >> <> injectors (at 40 psi). I have on order a rising rate FPR from cartech.net >> which I'm hoping will raise pressure enough for those brief visits to 7 or >> 8 lbs boost which seems to be the limit without restricting the signal to >> the wastegate actuator. BTW, this will have to hit quite a high fuel >> pressure. Like 80 psi or so for brief periods. My fuel hoses use spring >> clamps. Should I be replacing these with a more positive worm or screw >> type clamp?>> > > Errr, I don't like rising rate FPRs at all. Not good. They can spike the fuel > pressure w/ dangerous levels. That Cartech unit is one of them. You have to have > a ballpark idea of your hp output to choose the correct fuel components. Other > wise, it's trial and error. 80psi system pressure is ridiculous. Way to high, > even for brief periods. It's enough to blow off you little spring hose clamps at I've heard that, and I've also heard that it's no problem. It really depends on who I talk to so I don't know what to believe. I would prefer though, not to use pressures this high. > the injectors. I think the K.I.S.S. theory applies here. Or, go w/ a VW cold > start injector and Hobbs switch. Old school, but it works. I did the > calculations, and your factory injectors are good for about 128hp (at rated > pressure, 80% duty cycle, .50 B.S.F.C.). The 24 lb/hr ones you're considering > are only good for about 140hp (at rated pressure, 80% duty cycle, .55 turbo Yeah, but they will flow like a 31 lb/hr injector at about 67 psi. The stock 20 lb/hr only flow 30 lb/hr at 90 psi, thus my intention of using the rising rate FPR and slightly larger injectors to reduce how high I have to raise the fuel pressure. > B.S.F.C.). That doesn't soleve the whole fuel supply problem, but helps. The > Hitachi ECU can probably handle the change, but you'll still need more fuel at I've read that most ECM can handle a 10% change in injector flow. That would allow me to use 22 lb/hr no problem. Maybe 24 lb/hr if I reduce the idle fuel pressure from 35 psi to 28 - 30 psi. I've also read 25 psi is about the lowest you dare go before you loose good fuel atomization. > 8psi (I'm assuming the engine is making ~180hp at full boost). For 180hp, you'll > need about 31 lb/hr injectors (at rated pressure, 80% duty cycle, .55 turbo > B.S.F.C.). You could use 320 cc/min injectors and raise the fuel pressure a > couple of psi above their rated pressure. Then dial in the A/F ratio with the > dual-pot method. Viola! This is kinda what I'm leaning towards now. Like you, I'd prefer not to raise fuel pressure too high, but others seem to think it's OK so i thought I'd try it. > > Ah, but we don't know what your fuel pump is capable of. You have to measure a > baseline volumetric flow (timed) and measure the pump voltage. Measure system > fuel pressure at the rail too. Once you know all that, the calculations can be > quickly made to predict the pump flow at the new system pressure. If it's higher > than the injector needs, you in the clear. If the flow is below your needs by > 5%-40%, you can simply variably increase voltage to the pump until it's output > is your target fuel delivery. How would I do this? I see Kenne Bell has something to do this. It will provide up to 16v I think to the pump to boost flow? Cost a couple hundred $$ though I think. Is there a circuit diagram you know of that'll show how to build one? Thanks for the continued response. I'm learning more by the hour... :) - --Dan ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:46:43 -0700 Subject: RE: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys >On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Kurek, Larry wrote: > >> would do. Just think of when they combine GPS, data logging, and telemetry. >> Hell, break the speed limit and a ticket just shows up. Even worse, the top > >Apparently they already do this on european autobahns...pay a toll, drive, >stop and pay a toll...minion reads the time stamp and calculates the >speed. If too fast, they wave over a polizei to present a speeding ticket. Hell--the NY Thruway did that some in the sixties and seventies! Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:49:22 -0700 Subject: RE: OBD II guys >On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >> >I might be crazy, but if GM can open your door lock and tell where you >> >are from a satellite, how far away can it be that they will be able to >> >tell what your car is doing at anytime(I know sending is different from >> >receiving, but half the technology is there, right now). I was told >> >they are working on a way to fix your memcal from the sky(via >> >satellite). >> >Max >> >> NO--it's all there. I know a guy with a start up who is in the middle of >> selling GM a bunch of the satellite pager stuff. They could page the >> closest cop, right in his favorite doughnut shop, whenever you misbehave, >> if they want to implement it! >> >Miss a payment to GMAC and the cops will flag you down as you pass the >donut shop... Ever seen one of the "DARE to keep COPS off of DOUGHNUTS" bumper snickers?? I almost wrecked ROTFL the first time I did!! Greg ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:57:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Chevy ECM question - -----Original Message----- From: Bill Shaw To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 7:11 PM Subject: Chevy ECM question If oem, should be gm. Just kidding, there are a half dozen options, need at least the engine code vin number. Actually pulling it out is the best way. It behind the panel above the passengers shins, mounts vertically. Bruce >What ECM would I have in an '86 Camaro V6 auto? >Thanks, >Bill ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:25:56 -0500 Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop - -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Houlton To: EFI Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 8:06 PM Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop Please read the archives about O2 sensors, and EGOR before melting your motor. Unless your oem O2 is WB it's not telling you what is really going on. Are you absolutely sure your MAF is variable voltage and not variable frequency?. Bruce >Yep, it's a 10 LED display. I'm assuming it's set up in the standard way >that each LED represents .1v and maybe buffered a little bit to give a >smoother reading. My O2 sensor is a 3-wire. Power, ground and signal. >The A/F meter (called Intellitronix now BTW) has 3 wires. 12v power, ground >and signal. Power and ground come from the fuse box under the dash and the >signal I've tapped into the wiring harness where it plugs into the ECM behind >the driver's kick panel. ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:13:53 -0800 Subject: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." <<>> Dan, Uh, maybe I'm not fully understanding your wastegate here. The whole purpose of a boost controller is to have control of the amount of boost pressure allowed in the system. Nothing more than a controlled bleeder, or pressure relief controller. The reason for "Fuzzy Logic" controllers is simple. They can learn the boost curve and capabilities/characteristics of your turbo. After that calibration run, the controller will calculate exactly when to open the wastegate, based on your boost setting. Let's say my Garrett T04B and Profec controller are set to 15psi max boost (~380hp). My Racegate external wastegate can handle it fine, and there isn't any "boost creep" at all. When I'm in WOT in 3rd gear, let's say the boost spikes up from 8psi-20psi in no time at all. Of course, 20psi would cause some serious damage right now, but the Profec will never let the charge air system get there. The fuzzy logic knows how fast the boost comes on, and how much (from my initial dangerous calibration run). So, when I hammer it in 3rd gear...the boost shoots upward so fast, that a normal VBC would be way too slow to open the wastegate when 15psi hits. Result? Let's say I would have overboosted to 17psi (KABOOM!). The Profec would have recognized the rising boost rate, and would have opened the wastegate at let's say 13psi system pressure...so...the actual boost the manifold felt was indeed 15psi. Gotta love technology! So, a boost controller can't lower the boost coming from the compressor housing...but it CAN lower the amount of boost the intake manifold will actually experience. If you wanted, you could set your boost for 3psi, all day long. Your turbo might be cranking out a whopping 25psi capability, but you're just venting that pressure out through the wastegate. Where does that air go? Depends on the car. A lot of factory cars plumb the wastegate air into the exhaust system (Porsche did it on 944s), or some vent the air into the intake plumbing. Others vent it to atmosphere (noisy). Ever hear a GT2 911 on the track? Really terrible sounding. Wastegates farting, etc. Another thing to consider is having an intake blow-off valve. This is a must have for turbo reliability. It protects the compressor turbine wheel from harmful pressure surges that occur during lift throttle conditions (like gear shifts). Ever hear a GT1 911 "chirp" between gear shifts? That's a blow-off valve in action. Ideal location is as close to the thottle body as possible. Do you have one? =) <<>> 90psi?!! I don't think so! That's insane. Most EFI books will tell you how injectors go "static", or simply put...stay open, when they reach very high pressures. I can tell you this...I know some Bosch injectors that slam SHUT at about 70psi! Not open, but they slam shut and stay shut after 70psi. Maybe the Lucas disc style would fare better than the Bosch pintle style. <<> than the injector needs, you in the clear. If the flow is below your needs by > 5%-40%, you can simply variably increase voltage to the pump until it's output > is your target fuel delivery. How would I do this? I see Kenne Bell has something to do this. It will provide up to 16v I think to the pump to boost flow? Cost a couple hundred $$ though I think. Is there a circuit diagram you know of that'll show how to build one?>>> I have the installation paperwork for the Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump, which can hop up the voltage to the fuel pump, and is cockpit adjustable. I can fax the wiring diagrams to anybody that wants it. Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:48:39 EST Subject: Re: OBD II guys In a message dated 99-02-25 10:35:59 EST, Mguenther@xxx.COM writes: >I might be crazy, but if GM can open your door lock and tell where you >are from a satellite, how far away can it be that they will be able to >tell what your car is doing at anytime(I know sending is different from >receiving, but half the technology is there, right now). I was told >they are working on a way to fix your memcal from the sky(via >satellite). >Max > > I've been told part of the OBD III standard includes a way to disable a car remotely for emissions purposes. As for data recording, I know a GM air bag module will record up to 6 crash events in memory to prove the air bag did deploy. A mid 90's BMW ( 7 series ? ) will record a engine over rev, even though the ECM has a fuel cutoff revlimiter. Harold ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:53:09 +0000 Subject: Re: Chevy ECM question Check Ludis' WWW page for a great ECM cross reference. www.cruzers.com/~ludis (I think). There's a link in the GM/OEM systems page of the diy_efi WWW page - --steve Bill Shaw wrote: > > Hi guys, > > What ECM would I have in an '86 Camaro V6 auto? > > Thanks, > > Bill - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:29:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Robert Harris wrote: > Two Parts to the Plasma Jet Ignition. How about building one without the chamber??? Maybe a hot spark will help (not as good as a chamber, but 1/2 ????) and doable. tom s ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #133 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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