DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 26 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 134 In this issue: Re: TH-400 help Re: TH-400 help Re: MAF meters and open-loop. Three wire Hall effect speed sensor (Posted for a friend) Tranny needed Re: OBD II guys Re: Three wire Hall effect speed sensor (Posted for a friend) Plasma Jet Ignition Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." RE: OBD II guys Re: OBD II guys Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." motorcycle EFI Re: DIY_EFI_WWW Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys Re: OBD II guys Re: OBD II guys Plasma Jet Ignition Re: Chevy ECM question [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] Re: DDIS article .zip file See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:35:58 EST Subject: Re: TH-400 help In a message dated 99-02-24 23:45:41 EST, fraser@xxx.com writes: >Very good. I imagined this was the case due to the name "kickdown switch". >It's a wierd concept, though... why didn't they totally base the shift >(incl. downshifts) schedule on MAP(modulator) and speed(weights and >springs)? I mean, what's really gained by making TPS an input. There is a certin amount of hysteresis and delay built into a trans shift program to pervent up/ down/ up/ down shifting when a slight road speed or throttle position change occurs. The kickdown tells the trans to down shift right NOW. At lower speeds the trans would probably ( with some delay) down shift on it's own. <> I'd think the vac mod would be good for atleast 10 psi, probably more. Look at for a GM turbo diesel that uses a 400 and follow the vac hook up. As for the firmer shifts, hook up a pressure guage to the throttle pressure tap ( I, think a 400 has one) and the line pressure tap. Use compressed air and a regulator attached to the vac mod. Vary the air pressure and watch the guages. If the throttle and line PSI rises with higher air pressure, firmer shifts may result. Harold ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:35:58 EST Subject: Re: TH-400 help In a message dated 99-02-24 23:45:41 EST, fraser@xxx.com writes: >Very good. I imagined this was the case due to the name "kickdown switch". >It's a wierd concept, though... why didn't they totally base the shift >(incl. downshifts) schedule on MAP(modulator) and speed(weights and >springs)? I mean, what's really gained by making TPS an input. There is a certin amount of hysteresis and delay built into a trans shift program to pervent up/ down/ up/ down shifting when a slight road speed or throttle position change occurs. The kickdown tells the trans to down shift right NOW. At lower speeds the trans would probably ( with some delay) down shift on it's own. <> I'd think the vac mod would be good for atleast 10 psi, probably more. Look at for a GM turbo diesel that uses a 400 and follow the vac hook up. As for the firmer shifts, hook up a pressure guage to the throttle pressure tap ( I, think a 400 has one) and the line pressure tap. Use compressed air and a regulator attached to the vac mod. Vary the air pressure and watch the guages. If the throttle and line PSI rises with higher air pressure, firmer shifts may result. Harold ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:46:30 -0600 Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop. soren wrote: > >> Have you saturated the meter? > >> Have you exceeded the injector/fuel capacity (pulse width?) Tom s ------------------------------ From: "Mark Grady" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:13:50 -0500 Subject: Three wire Hall effect speed sensor (Posted for a friend) Hi folks. Hopefully someone can help. I'm installing an engine monitor, and need a speed sensor. I've got a sine wave generator type now, but my new toy (AV-10 engine Monitor) needs a Hall Effect type. I'm hoping that someone can tell me what make/model of car might use that type of speed sensor so that I can go find one at a local dealership. The type I'm looking for goes inline with the speedo cable. I actually have an extra sitting on the input side of the cruise control which is no longer used (old EFI scheme) and that's where I'd like to put this new Hall Effect sensor. TIA -- Heinz mailto://heinz@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Jason Weir Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:18:00 -0500 Subject: Tranny needed Anyone know of a source for a tranny/x-fer case out of a newer Dodge full-size pickup, I am looking for the NV4500/NP241 combo.. if anyone has seen a wreck in a yard let me know... thanks Jason ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:16:07 +0000 Subject: Re: OBD II guys > As for data recording, I know a GM air bag module will record up to 6 crash > events in memory to prove the air bag did deploy. A mid 90's BMW ( 7 series ? > ) will record a engine over rev, even though the ECM has a fuel cutoff > revlimiter. Early 90's 735il's had this "feature" as well. I had leased such a beast (awesome road car BTW) in 1991 and upon taking it in for its third or fourth oil change, they pointed out I had blasted past redline three times, and warned me that this could violate the engine's warranty. I argued and said "That's what the rev limiter is for - to protect the engine", but the service guy insisted he was in the right. Not in the paperwork, too bad. But, still, the point is I brought the car in, they knew I had pegged the tach three times. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:42:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Three wire Hall effect speed sensor (Posted for a friend) - -----Original Message----- From: Mark Grady To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:28 PM Subject: Three wire Hall effect speed sensor (Posted for a friend) Need more info., what is the output voltage needed, how many pulses per mile. Bruce >Hi folks. > >Hopefully someone can help. >I'm installing an engine monitor, and need a speed sensor. > >I've got a sine wave generator type now, but my new toy >(AV-10 engine Monitor) needs a Hall Effect type. > >I'm hoping that someone can tell me what make/model of car might use that >type of speed sensor so that I can go find one at a local dealership. The >type I'm looking for goes inline with the speedo cable. > >I actually have an extra sitting on the input side of the cruise control >which is no longer used (old EFI scheme) and that's where I'd like to put >this new Hall Effect sensor. > >TIA -- Heinz > >mailto://heinz@xxx.com > > ------------------------------ From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:48:23 GMT Subject: Plasma Jet Ignition Very Politically Incorrect and probably offensive - but its the best way to describe it in common terms. I want to blow up a building. I fill a truck with ammonia nitrate. I detonate truck. Oops - just blew out a bunch of windows - blast wave and heat go out in a hemispherical ball. That's conventional ignition. So I rent another truck, fill it with ammonia nitrate and add a couple hundred gallons of nitro methane. Damn - much bigger blast - but because it still goes out in a hemispherical ball ( actually probably closer to a donut shaped ball), all I do is blow out windows at a longer distance. That's CD ignition. Next try, I line the bottom, 3 sides and top with thousands of pounds of sand so that all the explosive force is directed out one side. Voila - success and a well deserved death sentence. That's a plasma jet Why plasma? Velocity - the blast wave can hit 10 to the 4th meters per second, pressure - several hundred atmospheres, temperature - ~60,000k. Channeling this into the chamber virtually assures the reliable combustion of the mixture. Since 94% plus of the energy is converted to plasma during the plasma stage, you get the most bang for the joule. Why doesn't just increasing the energy work - see hemispherical ball concept. Thats also why auxiliary gap plugs, nology wires and add on caps may or may not show any results Assume a perfect intake and perfect injection. Each cylinder every time receives identical amounts of fuel and air. Should be very consistent, yet there is cyclic variations in power. Why - the fuel air mixture seen by the plug varies from very lean to very rich to everywhere in between depending on too many depending ons. Swirl, temperature, rpm etc etc all add up to the plug never see's a consistent mixture - even though the aggregate mixture is perfect and consistent. The plug only sees an instantaneous 2mm ball at firing and that ball determines much of the ignition time for that event. That's why multi strike ignition works well. If the first strike is too lean, maybe the next will be in different air that is combustible. The Plasma Jet however fires a cone of plasma that may be 5 mm in diameter and in excess of 10mm deep into the combustible mixture. It "sees" a lot more of the mixture and thus far more consistently ignites the mix. Next, the plasma jet starts a much larger flame front, which greatly shortens the induction time of combustion. This translates to less advance needed. Also the much larger ignition cone easily ignites lean mixtures, high pressure mixtures (from compression or boost ) and hard to ignite alcohol or nitro type fuels. As to multiple gaps vs one, the best I understand is that although the break over voltage may be similar, the maintaining voltage and current is much smaller. And the purpose of the second gap is not spark related as is the first gap but to simply force the ignition to pump to a higher energy level prior to firing. Simply increasing the gap may result in an unstable or weak initial plasma field. As for the pre-chamber, many of the patents are for replacements for spark plugs so much so that perhaps with a modified anti-fouler to give a small pre chamber and enough energy at the right time, it should be adaptable to any engine. At least that's what I hope. The gap can be internal or external - but should be as close as possible to minimize the inductance between them. The final design implied that both the cap and the gap were internal to the plug to minimize EMI. >From: steve ravet >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:06:02 -0600 >Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition > >Robert Harris wrote: >> >> Two Parts to the Plasma Jet Ignition. > >I'm fascinated by this plasma jet ignition idea. But, I'm not sure what >the difference is between what is described below and a typical CD >ignition, except perhaps the energies involved, and the pre-chamber. Is >that pretty much "it"? > >- --steve > >Why two gaps, and not just one big gap? Is the auxiliary gap in the >chamber also, or in a plug wire or something? > > >- -- >Steve Ravet >steve.ravet@xxx.com >Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. >www.arm.com > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:59:18 EST Subject: Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys In a message dated 2/25/99 1:57:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimd@xxx.ca writes: > Apparently they already do this on european autobahns...pay a toll, drive, > stop and pay a toll...minion reads the time stamp and calculates the > speed. If too fast, they wave over a polizei to present a speeding ticket. They used to do that in the states on the PA & Ohio Turnpikes.... Clocks at the toll booths still have state auditor's seal, but I think they gave up using them to write speeding tickets many moons ago. MV Buford says my auto cigarette lighter is really a microphone.. Thought police, are you out there? ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:20:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition The final design implied that both the cap and the gap were internal to the plug to minimize EMI. How about a standard booster gap plug? ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:22:41 EST Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." To lower your boost, you may want to modify the wastegate rod if it doesn't already have a threaded clevis thingy on it. If it has one already, turn it so it lengthens the rod a little and go for a thunder-run to see how much it lowered the boost.. Also, the source for your boost signal can play a part in the resulting boost numbers. If the "signal" line is plumbed to the intake manifold, the engine is likely to see more boost than if you plumb it to the compressor outlet. This is even more so when an intercooler is present. Mike V > << your > boost. Then can only raise and/or accellerate the rise in boost by > restricting the pressure from the compressor outlet from reaching the > wastegate actuator. i.e. If it takes 8 lbs of pressure to open the waste > gate, then your boost is limited to 8 lbs. Bleed off some of the signal > though (say 2 lbs) and you'll be making 10 lbs boost before the wastegate > actuator gets it's 8 lbs and opens.To lower my boost, I'd need to add to the > boost signal. i.e., add say 2 lbs to the actuator so that at 6 lbs boost, > the > actuator would see 8 lbs ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: OBD II guys On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >Miss a payment to GMAC and the cops will flag you down as you pass the > >donut shop... > > Ever seen one of the "DARE to keep COPS off of DOUGHNUTS" bumper snickers?? > I almost wrecked ROTFL the first time I did!! > Was cruising the wannabe-freeway one day and a 5 litre Mustang motored onto a ramp and out into traffic. In the back window was avery large Vortech suoercharger decal [filled the window] and beside it was a "bad cop- no donut" decal. I bet he got lotsa attention... ------------------------------ From: "Mark Romans" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:34:35 -0800 Subject: Re: OBD II guys Bruce: I'm not aware of any logging that takes place in the pcm except the snap shot that occurs when a code is set. OBD2! That does record speed, minutes since start and the conditions when the code is set. Only real logging that takes place is in the DERM module when an airbag deploys. It's hard written to the DERM. Early ones would record 3 deploy's, later ones 5. Then time to buy a new one. Thing is I don't know of many instances when a car would survive that many crashes that cause the bags to blow! Mark - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 2:11 AM Subject: Re: OBD II guys >Well, OK, just that was marginal in being truely EFI. >Seems like gm might be doing some logging about events other than what would >be diagnostics. It just seems that the only way to do something like this >is having >the mpu write something to eeprom, and then logging a mileage. > Somehow, I just don't like the idea of a pcm tracking my behavior. While >I might >be doing testing at a sanctioned drag strip, having the pcm log the events >in a >manner that could be construed as reckless just upsets me. >Bruce > > >>Bruce if someone writes you off-list, be sure to write me, >>then I'll try Dave, and Dave will write Peter, and ..oh, just >>keep it on list okay? 8~) Good topic >> >>> Has anyone noticed an event recorder in working with the code?,, >>> Something like maybe x miles since x rpm?. >>> Maybe just some code that is really off the wall?. >>> If so I'd like to talk with ya off list. >>> Bruce nacelp@xxx.net >> > ------------------------------ From: Mark Kiecker Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:37:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Sorry, just getting in on the conversation.... Why not just decrease your compression ratio by either shaving the tops of your pistons or increasing your head gasket? This why you'll be able to keep the higher boost and depending on how much you decrease your compression ratio, possibly increase the amount of boost. KIECKER ------------------------------ From: George Gorman Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:52:54 +1100 Subject: motorcycle EFI Hello everyone, Have been lurking for a while...hello to the guys at orbital and soanar Can anyone tell me why large capacity 4 cylinder 4 stroke motorbikes (eg ZX9)are carby (excepting the 1999 GSXR750) while large twins (eg ducati TL1000) tend to be EFI? Are there any advantages to changing the carb setup on my 1988 GSXR 750 to EFI? And a dumb question - how many times per engine revolution does an injector fire? If it's only once, wouldn't you get a non homogenous mixture in your cylinder? Or do you get good mixing /atomisation from the compression at TDC? George Patrick Gorman Mechanical Engineer Australian Arrow P/L Ph (03) 9785 0853 Fax (03) 9775 0477 65 Lathams Rd, Carrum Downs Victoria, Australia 3201 george_gorman@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: "Mike Pilkenton" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:50:08 -0800 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI_WWW Well I tried to unzip the file at that link but it came up with errors. ANybody have any luck getting this file? Mike - -----Original Message----- From: Praveen Prabhu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 9:08 PM Subject: Re: DIY_EFI_WWW >Visit http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ >There is link to contents of article in 'zip' format. > >Praveen > > >>From: "Mike Pilkenton" >>To: >>Subject: Re: DIY_EFI_WWW >>Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:22:50 -0800 >>Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >>what's the link to this article please? >> >>Mike P. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: steve ravet >>To: DAVE ; diy_efi > >>Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 10:41 AM >>Subject: Re: DIY_EFI_WWW >> >> >>>Lots of people have been asking about this. The article is back >online, >>>thanks to Mr. Packrat Terry Sare. >>> >>>--steve >>> >>>DAVE wrote: >>>> >>>> Would you happen to have a copy of the DIS project from Performance >>>> Engineering Magazine that you could send me? It seems that the link >on >>>> the DIY- EFI site is dead. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance, Dave C. >>> >>>-- >>>Steve Ravet ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:33:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys >> would do. Just think of when they combine GPS, data logging, and telemetry. >> Hell, break the speed limit and a ticket just shows up. Even worse, the top > >Apparently they already do this on european autobahns...pay a toll, drive, >stop and pay a toll...minion reads the time stamp and calculates the >speed. If too fast, they wave over a polizei to present a speeding >ticket. I heard rumors of this happening in American turnpikes. If I am maintaining a high average speed, I will add a lunch or dinner break to mess up their calculations. Hey... gotta take the break sometime anyhow. Might as well time it to do some good. Ray ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:16:38 -0500 Subject: Re: OBD II guys On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:40:54 -0700 bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) writes: >>I might be crazy, but if GM can open your door lock and tell where you >>are from a satellite, how far away can it be that they will be able to >>tell what your car is doing at anytime(I know sending is different from >>receiving, but half the technology is there, right now). I was told >>they are working on a way to fix your memcal from the sky(via >>satellite). >>Max > >NO--it's all there. I know a guy with a start up who is in the middle of >selling GM a bunch of the satellite pager stuff. They could page the >closest cop, right in his favorite doughnut shop, whenever you misbehave, >if they want to implement it! > >Regards, Greg This makes me very happy to own older vehicles. I'll make sure that I collect enough to last a while. In truth, I'm much happier with my fuel-injected Jeep Grand Wagoneer than I would be with one of the newer SUVs. Ray ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:23:56 -0500 Subject: Re: OBD II guys >> I might be crazy, but if GM can open your door lock and tell where you >> are from a satellite, how far away can it be that they will be able to >> tell what your car is doing at anytime(I know sending is different from >> receiving, but half the technology is there, right now). I was told >> they are working on a way to fix your memcal from the sky(via >> satellite). >> Max > >It would really SUCK if they can tell what your cars is doing, I routinely >speed (~50K over). It could make GM extra money, lets say they (gm) get >1% of speeding fines.. At long last freedom from photo radar, speed traps your >car could just rat you out.. > >I think it is possible that someone at gm has thought about this Of course, those of us with older vehicles would have a big advantage. No "tattletale" ECM to snitch on us, and the cops would probablly have a lot less radar and photo equipment as the newer "snitch" ECMs come on line. Just think... we can drive past all of the sheep in their new "snitch" cars, knowing that the cops can't read our ECM, and that they probablly don't have too many radar guns left. Well... I'm trying to see the bright side. The down side is that they might mandate "retrofit" ECMs, or even ban older cars. Ray ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 05:25:14 GMT Subject: Plasma Jet Ignition Ok for the simple plasma jet experiment, someone has found the cap - S-100 needed. Its at www.directhits.com and its spec almost perfectly matches the patent. Next stop is Pep Boys for 8 anti-foulers and then a second gap plug. Once upon a time JC Whitney has these "special" plugs with a second gap - gar un damn teed to fire in oil, make more milage, power and cure bunions. Does anyone still make or sell them. Last step needed for poor boys Plasma Jet experiment. If anyone finds one let me know - Christine needs a new fangle anyway. Someone in the shed I gots me an MSD ignition system to spark this puppy anyway. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:52:32 -0800 Subject: Re: Chevy ECM question Hi Bill For 86 - 89 F body with 2.8 you should have a 1227302 ecm gl:peter Bill Shaw on 02/25/99 03:04:49 PM Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu cc: (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT) Subject: Chevy ECM question Hi guys, What ECM would I have in an '86 Camaro V6 auto? Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ From: Dennis Bell Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:22:41 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------1757290667EFC8D18CCCED1B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe others on the list can use this info. - --------------1757290667EFC8D18CCCED1B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <36D64AE6.99209661@xxx.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:19:02 -0800 From: Dennis Bell Organization: Beltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: heinz@xxx.com Subject: Speedo Transducer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heinz, Try United Speedometer & Instrument, 2431 University Ave, Riverside, CA 92507, 800-877-4798 They sell a line of in-line speedometer transducers. The unit has three wires, ground, power (4.5 - 24 Volts) and output (open drain, closure to ground 20 ma. max). These provide 16 pulses per revolution (actually a square wave). I've used one for a vehicle speed sensor on an EFI conversion. I had to build a divider to change the 16 pulses to 2 pulses per revolution for my application. HTH Dennis - --------------1757290667EFC8D18CCCED1B-- ------------------------------ From: Chris Conlon Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:23:49 -0500 Subject: Re: DDIS article .zip file At 07:53 PM 2/24/99 PST, Praveen Prabhu wrote: >Visit http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ >There is link to contents of article in 'zip' format. The .zip file I got there was somewhat messed up. I pkzipfix'ed it and put the result up at www87.pair.com/chrisc/ddis.html One of the .gif files still ends up with a CRC error though. Chris C. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #134 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".