DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 27 February 1999 Volume 04 : Number 135 In this issue: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition RE: [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] RE: OBD II guys RE: DARE (was OBD II guys) Re: OBD II guys Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys Re: [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys Re: Tranny needed Plasma Jet Ignition Re: DDIS article .zip file Re: MAF meters and open-loop Re: Tranny needed Re: MAF meters and open-loop. Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Ford EFI 5.0 wiring in Ranger Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Re: EEC: RE: 5.0 Wiring in 92 ranger Re: Ford EFI 5.0 wiring in Ranger EFI for Propane Re: OBD II guys Re: motorcycle EFI Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Re: EFI for Propane Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Re: EFI for Propane Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Re: EFI for Propane Re: EFI for Propane Re: DARE (was OBD II guys) Re: DARE (was OBD II guys) Re: EFI for Propane Inquiry on EFI testing System See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nico Over Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:43:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Guys, For the plugs, you may want to look at www.torquemaster.com, their plugs are similar to the old JC whitney ones. I tried using them in my 4runner after the direct hits but the the ecm (?) wouldn't let the car idle properly, had to run the idle up to approx 1300 rpm to get it to smooth out, The 4runner would pull real strong to redline (5500) though. I am also running a set in my 46 Morris with a 2.5 liter Daimler hemi V-8 (390 Holley/no ecm) and they work superbly, better starts, idles well and seems better mileage but no ecm. My 2 cents worth. Nico ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:54:48 -0500 Subject: RE: [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] Thanks Dennis. Great tip! rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Bell [SMTP:beltec@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:23 AM > To: Do It Yourself EFI > Subject: [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] > > Maybe others on the list can use this info. << Message: Speedo Transducer > >> ------------------------------ From: Michael Kasimirsky Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:03:59 -0500 Subject: RE: OBD II guys > > As for data recording, I know a GM air bag module will > record up to 6 crash > > events in memory to prove the air bag did deploy. A mid > 90's BMW ( 7 series ? > > ) will record a engine over rev, even though the ECM has a > fuel cutoff > > revlimiter. The current GM computer in the Olds Aurora records several items that could be considered abuse. For example, if you shift into gear, from neutral, with the throttle open (i.e. neutral drop the car), it logs a code. If you look in the factory Service Manual, all these codes are explicitly defined. There's probably 20 different codes for driver abuse of one form or another. I'm guessing that somewhere there's a 16-year-old kid who's gotten himself in a pile of trouble for beating the old man's Aurora, after dad had the car in for service and the dealer informed him of junior's antics with his $30,000 ride. :-) Michael Kasimirsky 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer Loki Motorsports 1993 Kawasaki ZX1100D1 Streetbike Rider FASTTRAX & WERA Expert #21 Sponsored by Loki Motorsports, Bridgestone, mtk@xxx. ------------------------------ From: Bill Shaw Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:23:13 -0400 Subject: RE: DARE (was OBD II guys) Dougnhut Abuse Resistnace Education: What a hoot! Bill > >Ever seen one of the "DARE to keep COPS off of DOUGHNUTS" bumper snickers?? >I almost wrecked ROTFL the first time I did!! > >Greg ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:02:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: OBD II guys On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > > Of course, those of us with older vehicles would have a big advantage. > No "tattletale" ECM to snitch on us, and the cops would probablly have a > lot less radar and photo equipment as the newer "snitch" ECMs come on > line. Just think... we can drive past all of the sheep in their new > "snitch" cars, knowing that the cops can't read our ECM, and that they > probablly don't have too many radar guns left. > > Well... I'm trying to see the bright side. The down side is that they > might mandate "retrofit" ECMs, or even ban older cars. > Or, in Canada, you would be "allowed" to "donate" your car to the government without compensation. ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:03:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > >Apparently they already do this on european autobahns...pay a toll, > drive, > >stop and pay a toll...minion reads the time stamp and calculates the > >speed. If too fast, they wave over a polizei to present a speeding > >ticket. > > I heard rumors of this happening in American turnpikes. If I am > maintaining a high average speed, I will add a lunch or dinner break to > mess up their calculations. Hey... gotta take the break sometime anyhow. > Might as well time it to do some good. > Kinda gives going to the bathroom a whole new meaning... ------------------------------ From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:07:15 EST Subject: Re: [Fwd: Speedo Transducer] Can someone please forward me the above post I lost it, Thanks to AOL.. Thanks, Scotty ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:33:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys - -----Original Message----- From: ECMnut@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Covert Data Logging was--->OBD II guys Pres thinks it is to. Hmmm, Arnold may be in trouble Bruce >Buford says my auto cigarette lighter is really a microphone.. >Thought police, are you out there? > ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:35:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Tranny needed Keep dreaming..... andy p.s. been looking for a loooong time now. - ---Jason Weir wrote: > > Anyone know of a source for a tranny/x-fer case out of a newer Dodge > full-size pickup, I am looking for the NV4500/NP241 combo.. if anyone > has seen a wreck in a yard let me know... thanks Jason > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:33:21 GMT Subject: Plasma Jet Ignition OK Fess up - where and how do I get them? The suck droids at the parts store return blank stares and endlessly repeat "Year Make Model - its not in the computer" On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 05:00:01 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Clarence L.Snyder" >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:20:20 -0500 >Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition > >The final design implied that both the >cap and the gap were internal to the plug to minimize EMI. > >How about a standard booster gap plug? > >------------------------------ > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:15:54 -0600 Subject: Re: DDIS article .zip file That article is on the DIY_EFI page again, under "members and projects". FYI - --steve Chris Conlon wrote: > > At 07:53 PM 2/24/99 PST, Praveen Prabhu wrote: > >Visit http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ > >There is link to contents of article in 'zip' format. > > The .zip file I got there was somewhat messed up. I pkzipfix'ed it and > put the result up at > > www87.pair.com/chrisc/ddis.html > > One of the .gif files still ends up with a CRC error though. > > Chris C. - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: d houlton x0710 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:18:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > From: Daniel Houlton > To: EFI > Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 8:06 PM > Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop > > Please read the archives about O2 sensors, and EGOR before melting your > motor. > Unless your oem O2 is WB it's not telling you what is really going on. Nope, it's not a WB and I have scoured the archives about 02 sensors so I'm familiar with it's really telling me (or not actually). My understanding of how these meters work is they can only reliably show rich or lean. Not *how* rich or lean. The LED's up and down the range I assume are buffered and kind of represent a duty cycle. It the mix is above .5v (rich) for say 70% of the time, then 7 LEDs light up. If it's 50/50 above and below .5v, it shows 5 LEDs, etc. It can give you an approximation of how rich or lean, but not the true value. If this isn't right, please let me know. I had asked about an EGT gauge. Would this be the best way to monitor what's happening to prevent a melted piston? Seems like it would be since A/F mixture isn't the only thing that can cause a melted piston. Things like intake temp (high for me under boost without an IC) can cause a lean mixture (or even a stoich mix?) to burn a piston a lot easier/sooner than normal intake temps right? Seems like exhaust temp is going to be directly related to how much heat the pistons are seeing regardless of A/F mix or intake temp. Does AutoMeter make an UltraLite series EGT? > Are you absolutely sure your MAF is variable voltage and not variable > frequency?. Variable frequency? I'm not sure. Would I need an o-scope to see this? Variable voltage? Definitely, and it's very much determined by load on the engine. It seems to be quite non-scalar though. Very slight changes in load at idle and light cruise result in big changes between about 1v and 3.5v. The higher the load, the slower the output voltage climbs. From light cruise to WOT the output voltage only goes from around 3.5v to just over 4v. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:22:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Tranny needed I can get a NV4500 and a NP241 for you. Need to know what engine if you need the bell housing. Located in Kitchener Ontario Canada - Your cost $3900 Canadian plus shipping and taxes. About $2808 US plus shipping. Let me know what engine if you need bell housing - I'll see If there is one here - and if you are interested, where are you located? ------------------------------ From: d houlton x0710 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:27:25 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: MAF meters and open-loop. Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > > soren wrote: > > > >> Have you saturated the meter? > > >> > > Have you exceeded the injector/fuel capacity (pulse width?) Tom s I'm pretty sure not in this case. Like I said, the mix is rich until the WOT switch kicks in and changes the computer to open-loop. I've done some further testing too by pulling a pin in one of wiring harness connectors that prevents the computer from ever seeing the WOT switch. It still sees idle and off-idle correctly, just not the WOT that comes on about 3/4 throttle. In this case, the mixture doesn't seem to be as rich at moderate load, but hovers right around stoich. But if I floor it, it doesn't instantly go completely lean . It stays where it is and gradually goes lean as the boost and rpm's rise. So yes, I believe from this (and the math calcs definitely back this up) that my injectors are (way) too small and I run out of fuel capacity/duty cycle, but the sharp drop off in A/F mix at WOT is due to the ECM switch over to open-loop mode. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: d houlton x0710 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:33:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > To lower your boost, you may want to modify the wastegate rod > if it doesn't already have a threaded clevis thingy on it. Ahh yes. That would do it too, but it doesn't use a threaded clevis so it's not adjustable. I like the idea though. Much cleaner and more reliable than a spring. Cheap too. Boost seems to be limited to about 8 psi right now if I really floor it for more than a couple seconds which doesn't seem too much. If I can't get the fueling worked out and do want to reduce boost, I'll keep this in mind. > If it has one already, turn it so it lengthens the rod a little > and go for a thunder-run to see how much it lowered the > boost.. Also, the source for your boost signal can play a > part in the resulting boost numbers. If the "signal" line > is plumbed to the intake manifold, the engine is likely to It's an internal wastegate and I don't have an adjustable boost controller of any kind so the signal line is a short 3" piece of 1/4" hose from the output of the compressor scrollhousing to the actuator. Not much of a restriction there I think. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:36:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition OK Fess up - where and how do I get them? The suck droids at the parts store return blank stares and endlessly repeat "Year Make Model - its not in the computer" U series Champions if you can still find them. UN12Y was common for chevy and chrysler, or UJ6 on the old small block chevy engine. UN 12 also on old Austins, UJ8 on Buick Straight 8, UL15 on corvair, uj 6 on old olsmobile, ul15y on aluminum olds v8, uj8 on old pontiac 6 and 8, ud16 on stud hemi (18mm - definitely still available). Some are definitely still available, others are GONE ------------------------------ From: d houlton x0710 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:47:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Mark Kiecker wrote: > > Sorry, just getting in on the conversation.... > > Why not just decrease your compression ratio by either shaving the tops > of your pistons or increasing your head gasket? This why you'll be able > to keep the higher boost and depending on how much you decrease your > compression ratio, possibly increase the amount of boost. Compression is already a pretty low 8.6:1 which seems to be fine for the low boost I'm running. I don't want to ruin the drivability or off-boost performance of this thing. I'm not looking for screaming WOT performance. Just some more top end grunt so I can pass and maintain speed on the highway going up the over passes (seriously, I couldn't even do that before), especially when towing or heavily loaded for trips/camping, etc. Passing at 60 mph used to be a joke and required preperation akin to that needed to land an airliner. Also, tearing the engine down to do these things is much more involved than I want to do right now. If a re-build were required (hope not), I'd port the heads a bit, choose forged pistons (if available) and have them and the combustion chambers ceramic coated. Also maybe o-ring the block or just use a good quality solid copper head gasket and install head studs (if available) instead of head bolts. I'd try to keep compression ratio about the same. But all these would be just if I *needed* to rebuild for it to be worth it to me. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:34:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Reducing compression, where needed should be done in a way to maintain existing squish/quench areas in the combustion chamber. Merely adding head gaskets or increasing the deck clearance will reduce combustion efficiency. Gary Derian >> >> Why not just decrease your compression ratio by either shaving the tops >> of your pistons or increasing your head gasket? This why you'll be able >> to keep the higher boost and depending on how much you decrease your >> compression ratio, possibly increase the amount of boost. > ------------------------------ From: Andrew Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:01:37 -0700 Subject: Ford EFI 5.0 wiring in Ranger Hello everyone, I am relatively new to the list but I have been playing with Ford EFI for a long time now and own a 5.0 shop here in Canada. My latest project has been a 5.0 swap into a 92 Ranger. I rewired the Mustang harness to fit the Ranger and fired it up for the first time last night. I can't say I am very happy with the results. Once it starts, the motor runs really rough; a heavy surge begins and the car will eventually stall without throttle. I know there could be LOTS of things to cause it, but I would like a logical approach to find the problem. I don't have a break-out box but if it would save me some time I would get one. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Andrew ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:06:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." <> That's what I did. I had Mordy at Gasketworks ( http://www.headgasket.com/ )make me a custom VW VR6 copper headgasket. He took the pattern off of an OEM gasket, and CNC water-cut me a .095" THK copper one. Quality is great, and all the coolant ports and oil galleys are well done. Price was very good. Lowers my stock static 10:1 CR down to ~9:1. Together w/ an O-ringed head, and Raceware head studs...it makes for a 15psi capable VW VR6 w/ stock cast pistons/rods. The alternative was to spend $1700+ on a custom JE forged 9:1 slug set and custom Crower forged rods (or Titanium rods). Then boost could go up to 21psi (440hp). That' a bit on the lunatic fringe for a FWD car. Good for 11.55 ETs though! Doh! Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:33:42 EST Subject: Re: EEC: RE: 5.0 Wiring in 92 ranger In various messages , huntera@xxx.com writes: >The 5.0 was out of a 94 and ran well. The harness is out of an 89, but the >computer is an A9S. I have an A9L that I will try out. The MAF is from an >89 too. TPS is at .95v. No apparent vacuum leaks. > >I am stumped and dead tired of working on this thing. :) > >Andrew > >I should expand abit on this; TPS is set at .95v, timing is set at 12, no vacuum leaks, fuel pressure is ok. KOEO codes are all related to EGR stuff (removed). With the work to the harness, I am thinking a ground or power problem.>> ############################################ Does the ECM you are using have a input for EGR position? Ford uses this info to reduce pulse width when the EGR is open. ( since exhaust contains little oxygen, fuel input must be reduced). I don't know what a open circuit would do on this system. Harold ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:07:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Ford EFI 5.0 wiring in Ranger Any KOEO, ER or continuous codes? I'd start there. May be pull the IAC and see if it's gummed up at all too. jw On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Andrew wrote: > Hello everyone, > I am relatively new to the list but I have been playing with Ford EFI for a > long time now and own a 5.0 shop here in Canada. My latest project has > been a 5.0 swap into a 92 Ranger. I rewired the Mustang harness to fit the > Ranger and fired it up for the first time last night. I can't say I am > very happy with the results. > Once it starts, the motor runs really rough; a heavy surge begins and the > car will eventually stall without throttle. I know there could be LOTS of > things to cause it, but I would like a logical approach to find the > problem. I don't have a break-out box but if it would save me some time I > would get one. > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Andrew > ------------------------------ From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:48:07 EST Subject: EFI for Propane I've got a question or two: Has anyone though about or attempted designind an EFI system for Propane/Butane fuel. I would think that liquid propane entering an intake manifold at 300 PSI at -80 degrees or whatever it boils at would do wonders to lower intake temps, plus with a stoich ratio nearing that of Gasoline and an Ocatne rating of 130 seems like it would be an ideal fuel for super high performance turbo charged engines.. Not to mention the fact that all those EPA CARB guys would love Propane's low emmision exhaust gasses. Has anyone found an electronic fuel injector capable of withstanding the high pressures and low temperatures for such a setup? Thanks! Scotty ------------------------------ From: Padgett 0sirius Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:57:35 -0500 Subject: Re: OBD II guys re: Overrevving detection Most common cause is a racing downshift from fifth to second or fourth to first. Next is a redline power shift from any gear to neutral.
A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist 0000,0000,8080Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request ------------------------------ From: Padgett 0sirius Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:07:02 -0500 Subject: Re: motorcycle EFI >And a dumb question - how many times per engine revolution does an injector >fire? Not dumb and it varies. Mechanical FI (Rochester, Bosche K) was often constant flow type that varied the rail pressure. Most DFI fires once & uses pulse width modulation/constant pressure. though it could be a constant quasi square wave as well (gas turbines have used that).
A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist 0000,0000,8080Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request ------------------------------ From: Padgett 0sirius Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:10:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition >Once upon a time JC Whitney has these "special" plugs with a second gap - gar >un damn teed to fire in oil, make more milage, power and cure bunions. Does >anyone still make or sell them. Were called "fire injectors" - had a center post and several square "teeth" around the periphery. Still have a set (I think) that were tried in a then new 78 Chevvy 305. Idle got very rough.
A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist 0000,0000,8080Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:12:21 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI for Propane On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 ScottyCBoy@xxx.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:48:07 EST > From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: EFI for Propane > > I've got a question or two: > > Has anyone though about or attempted designind an EFI system for > Propane/Butane fuel. I would think that liquid propane entering an intake > manifold at 300 PSI at -80 degrees or whatever it boils at would do wonders to > lower intake temps, plus with a stoich ratio nearing that of Gasoline and an > Ocatne rating of 130 seems like it would be an ideal fuel for super high > performance turbo charged engines.. Not to mention the fact that all those EPA > CARB guys would love Propane's low emmision exhaust gasses. Has anyone found > an electronic fuel injector capable of withstanding the high pressures and low > temperatures for such a setup? I've driven propane taxis, and have a propane endorsment on my mechanics licence propane is a good fuel -> almost instant heat in the winter much cleaner fuel. I haven't seen liquid injection though, good idea. you may have problems with refueling stations ( I once had to leave a truck in Georgia because none of the propane companies beleive a truck would run on propane ( they didn't beleive that the adaptor was for propane 8(( > > Thanks! > > Scotty > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:16:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Plasma Jet Ignition Hi Padgett, glad you decided to join. One more thing, please turn off html formatting when mailing to the list. Lots of people can't read it. - --steve Padgett 0sirius wrote: > > >Once upon a time JC Whitney has these "special" plugs with a second gap - gar > >un damn teed to fire in oil, make more milage, power and cure bunions. Does > >anyone still make or sell them. > > Were called "fire injectors" - had a center post and several square "teeth" around the periphery. Still have a set (I think) that were tried in a then new 78 Chevvy 305. Idle got very rough. - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "Espen Hilde" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:09:18 +0100 Subject: Re: EFI for Propane Hi check out this: http://www.autolpg.com/autocom/Techref.HTM#anchor948886 http://www.docscipark.com.au/liquiphase.html I have been playing with the tought of converting an Mercury 2.5efi outboard engine,some English company had succses with it ,did even break a speed record....What about cooling the lpg to a point where its liquid, then we could use regular efi injectors, we dont have to create a box that must regulate injection time for the variable pressure that temperature is doing for lpg fuel pressure.Can a Lucas disc type injector cope with the pressure? What about two injectors in series?One ontop of the other? I have been thinking of just pumping twostroke oil into the lpg tank to get a mix. Espen Hilde - ---------- > From: Pat Ford > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: EFI for Propane > Date: 27. februar 1999 00:12 > > On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 ScottyCBoy@xxx.com wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:48:07 EST > > From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: EFI for Propane > > > > I've got a question or two: > > > > Has anyone though about or attempted designind an EFI system for > > Propane/Butane fuel. I would think that liquid propane entering an intake > > manifold at 300 PSI at -80 degrees or whatever it boils at would do wonders to > > lower intake temps, plus with a stoich ratio nearing that of Gasoline and an > > Ocatne rating of 130 seems like it would be an ideal fuel for super high > > performance turbo charged engines.. Not to mention the fact that all those EPA > > CARB guys would love Propane's low emmision exhaust gasses. Has anyone found > > an electronic fuel injector capable of withstanding the high pressures and low > > temperatures for such a setup? > > I've driven propane taxis, and have a propane endorsment on my mechanics > licence propane is a good fuel -> almost instant heat in the winter much > cleaner fuel. I haven't seen liquid injection though, good idea. > > you may have problems with refueling stations ( I once had to leave a > truck in Georgia because none of the propane companies beleive a truck > would run on propane ( they didn't beleive that the adaptor was for > propane 8(( > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Scotty > > > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:13:55 EST Subject: Re: Boost/Injectors...was "MAF..." Dan, I missed the beginning.. What is the engine/application? Mike V > It's an internal wastegate and I don't have an adjustable boost controller > of any kind so the signal line is a short 3" piece of 1/4" hose from the > output of the compressor scrollhousing to the actuator. Not much of a > restriction there I think. ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:48:06 EST Subject: Re: EFI for Propane I used to spend alot of time in the staging lanes at a local track, talking with a guy who ran a 9.90 car with a BBC burning GNG.. He had some kinda propane mixers where the carbs would go on a tunnel ram.. His biggest complaint was that he couldn't read plugs... They stayed really clean. Atomization was obviously not a problem... Always wanted to try that sort of thing, but there just didn't seem to be enough info in the mainstream about it.. Like, does 980 on the O2 sensor mean the same thing when you're burning gasoline as with compressed nat.gas? Mike V. > > I've driven propane taxis, and have a propane endorsment on my mechanics > licence propane is a good fuel -> almost instant heat in the winter much > cleaner fuel. I haven't seen liquid injection though, good idea. ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:42:29 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI for Propane I have given it considerable thought, and have even done some calculations. Go with experience rather then theory, thoug :-) There is a site in Oz that describes such a system. There is a pump inside the tank that pressurizes the LPG to about 300 PSI. This keeps it from boiling prematurely. It is injected as a liquid. I believe that it is injected right outside the intake valve. There is a secondary ECM that translates the stock ECM's injection signal to something suitable for propane. They claim a 10% improvement in both torque and power over gasoline, and they have the dyno data to back it up. My plan is to mount injecters on my Holley Pro-Jection throttle body, or through the spacer plate under it. I'll just set up a seperate fuel and spark advance table for propane. That'll be proof of concept. Eventually, I will build an engine to take advantage of the high octane of propane. I never got around to sending mail to the people who are building these systems. I need to find out where to get the injecters and the in-tank pump. I'll probablly control the pressure with a chopper circuit feedint the pump motor. I still need some numbers for my calculations, such as the specific heat capacity for air and for gaseous propane. Ray On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:48:07 EST ScottyCBoy@xxx.com writes: >I've got a question or two: > >Has anyone though about or attempted designind an EFI system for >Propane/Butane fuel. I would think that liquid propane entering an intake >manifold at 300 PSI at -80 degrees or whatever it boils at would do wonders to >lower intake temps, plus with a stoich ratio nearing that of Gasoline and an >Ocatne rating of 130 seems like it would be an ideal fuel for super high >performance turbo charged engines.. Not to mention the fact that all those EPA >CARB guys would love Propane's low emmision exhaust gasses. Has anyone found >an electronic fuel injector capable of withstanding the high pressures and low >temperatures for such a setup? > >Thanks! > >Scotty > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:00:28 -0500 Subject: Re: DARE (was OBD II guys) The one I saw was: Dougnhut Abuse Rotundity Education On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:23:13 -0400 Bill Shaw writes: >Dougnhut Abuse Resistnace Education: What a hoot! > >Bill > >> >>Ever seen one of the "DARE to keep COPS off of DOUGHNUTS" bumper >snickers?? >>I almost wrecked ROTFL the first time I did!! >> >>Greg > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:00:28 -0500 Subject: Re: DARE (was OBD II guys) The one I saw was: Dougnhut Abuse Rotundity Education On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:23:13 -0400 Bill Shaw writes: >Dougnhut Abuse Resistnace Education: What a hoot! > >Bill > >> >>Ever seen one of the "DARE to keep COPS off of DOUGHNUTS" bumper >snickers?? >>I almost wrecked ROTFL the first time I did!! >> >>Greg > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Raymond C Drouillard Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:57:27 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI for Propane >....What about cooling the lpg to a point where its liquid, then we >could use regular efi injectors, we dont have to create a box that must >regulate injection time for the variable pressure that temperature is doing > >for lpg fuel pressure.Can a Lucas disc type injector cope with the >pressure? >What about two injectors in series?One ontop of the other? >I have been thinking of just pumping twostroke oil into the lpg tank >to get a mix. >Espen Hilde I was thinking of feeding the liquid into the injecter at perhaps 330 PSI, and using something similar to a diesel injecter on the other end that opens at 300 PSI. That way the injecter would see a 30 PSI difference in pressures, and be dealing with a warm liquid. The standard injecter would be used as a valve, and the propane would vaporize once it leaves the injecter (regulater or whatever you want to call it). I would rather have an injecter that can handle the 300 PSI without such a jerry rig, though. Ray ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Qiang Chen Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:47:12 0800 Subject: Inquiry on EFI testing System Hello Everyone, I am an engineer in China Automobile Technology Research Center. Granted by the Director of the center, we are going to build up a test center to control the quality of automobile control system including engine EFI subsystem. But I don't know where I should begin with. Is there any similar center in the states? What I want to know is: 1) Needed equipments and suppliers 2) Related standards 3) Related URLs. Thank you very much for your help! I would be very grateful if you send emails directly to me. Best regards, Qiang Chen ================================== Qiang Chen 9-2-16,Nanjiang Xili, Jialing Rd., Nankai District, Tianjin 300113, P.R.China Phone: 86(22)2769-3021 Email: q_chen@xxx.net ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #135 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".