DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 138 In this issue: Re: Code Work Re: EFI, MAF & turbos: Update Propane Injection EFI Intake Re: EFI Intake Renault/Bendix FI Re: EFI Intake Re: EFI Intake Re: Renault/Bendix FI Electronic AFM adjustments & large injectors. Re: Electronic AFM adjustments & large injectors. Speed Sensor GM ECM Ford EEC-IV 730 in a buick... Re: Ford EEC-IV Re: GM ECM See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:43:38 -0800 Subject: Re: Code Work Sorry all hit the wrong key again :peter ------------------------------ From: Padgett 0sirius Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:02:13 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI, MAF & turbos: Update > My stock EFI is sequential port injection. According to Corky >Bell, most (all?) seqential systems revert to non-sequential at 3000 >rpm. Could this somehow be related to my WOT/full lean problem below >3K that I originally asked about? How can I tell if my EFI is indeed >switching to non-sequential at 3K? First thought would be to use an O'scope. Connect the first injector to fire to X and the middle one (to maximise spread) to Y. If sequential, should have an "L" pattern, horizontal when X fires, Vert when Y. If reversion is to simultaneous fire, trace would be a single diagonal. Considering the cycle times, it probably makes sense, modern engines do not expect to cruise over 3,000 anyway. A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request ------------------------------ From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:54:34 GMT Subject: Propane Injection First - thanks Greg for the info about Advance Adaptors. Will be using their O/D in front of my New Process 5 speed on the C-600 when I drop the new engine in this summer. On to Propane. When the new engine goes in, will be using LPG as the second and BI-Fuel. Since its an "RV" and I'll be using a 60 gallon ASME tank, I don't anticipate any problems - including not having to pay motor or road tax's as this is a heating fuel tank - its just a largish tank to run the reefer, stove, hot water etc right. Nah - no connection to the motor - that's what the gasoline tank is for. Next, a small note about safety. Get Real. You sit in front of enough gasoline to level a building, pumping a gallon or more at high pressure around a very hot engine with lots of ignition sources for exposed raw fuel, with a couple of pounds of Freon that if ever burned as in an accident would liberate enough Phosgene to poison 84 Janet Reno Bar B Que ees, spinning enough metal in the flywheel and clutch or TQ to saw your legs and the car in half if it let go - which happens frequently enough to require special shields for racing and you lecture that two pounds of LPG as a refrigerant might be dangerous? If that thought frightens you witless, you must absolutely be terrified being in the same cage as orders of magnitude more quantities of "explosive" gasoline - and BTW car fires happen all the time. Sunday Morning Rant Over - On to EFI. As has been pointed out, that simply knowing the tank temp allows one to calculate the flow thru an orifice and control the fuel without hoking up the system with pumps. Greg has observed that if you can get the liquid propane into the cylinder, and you are operating in a region where it can be vaporized prior to combustion, you can get some nice benefits from liquid propane injection. The greater the air temperature is, the more beneficial charge cooling becomes and also, the higher the effective octane of the fuel needed. It is a happy co-incidence that the same raise in air temp raises the pressure which increase's the flow. The new motor will run primarily on gasoline with propane as a sometimes BI-Fuel - depending on load, price and availability. The moving towards prototype Dark Side EFI simply manages air and lets the drivers foot manage fuel so is oblivious to fuel controls. This allows a very simple binary liquid propane injection to be used for the power region and nicely de-complicates defecation. BTW, there were extensive comments in the archives about Propane and EFI. This system will simply use a very high pressure nitrous ( tank pressure 1000+ psi) valve connected to the liquid propane outlet after the appropriate LPG safety valve, running to a nitrous injection system with a calibrated nozzle in each inlet port. Remember that nitrous has the same problems - in spades - ( -190f bp, 1000 psi pressure vs - 43~ and ~125 psi pressure ) of a high pressure, very low boiling point, even distribution, getting liquid into the intake port and not freezing up. What works for nitrous will work very well for liquid propane. Replace the fuel side with another nitrous side, I can now have four flow states. Off- Off, Off - On, On - Off, and On ON. If the two sides nozzle orifices are binary related that gives me three even steps of liquid propane being dumped right at the intake valve. Adding a third nozzle in 1-2-4 relationship gives me 7 even steps - overkill for what I want. On cool or cold days, wacking the throttle into the liquid LPG turn on region results in much less cooling and octane boost than on hotter days with higher tank pressure and greater flow. Almost a perfect match for reality. And it can be implemented with a minimum of computational overhead. For a total propane system, a number of fixed orifice nozzles could be used for the liquid propane and a Ford IAC to variably control a modest amount of vapor propane. Since this is a solenoid valve, a very simple pulse width modulator and a series of relays is all you would need to have a complete propane system. Just a thought. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ From: WLundquist@xxx.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:09:20 EST Subject: EFI Intake To anyone interested, I am currently designing a plenum box to be cast in aluminium to fit on top of a tunnel ram manifold for a BB Chevy. The plenum will be about 80%+ the volume of the engine and all opening will be radiused to enhance flow. My concern is that I will use 2 throttle bodies to supply enough air, I want to make about 750 HP, and where to mount the TB's on the plenum so as not to disrupt air flow to the runners. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Wayne ------------------------------ From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:44:04 EST Subject: Re: EFI Intake Hi Wayne, For optimum distribution, the TB's should be one on each side of the plenum, staggered in the center of the runners,,,,,but with enough plenum area TB placement is not of much concern......btw why two TB's????? I can get you a 2100cfm+ throttle body,,,it is dominator bolt pattern, has two large oval butterflies, can be progressive or 1:1, uses GM TPS & IAC,,,,,,,,just a thought.....hth's - -Carl Summers In a message dated 2/28/99 10:22:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, WLundquist@xxx.com writes: << Subj: EFI Intake Date: 2/28/99 10:22:43 AM Pacific Standard Time From: WLundquist@xxx.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu To anyone interested, I am currently designing a plenum box to be cast in aluminium to fit on top of a tunnel ram manifold for a BB Chevy. The plenum will be about 80%+ the volume of the engine and all opening will be radiused to enhance flow. My concern is that I will use 2 throttle bodies to supply enough air, I want to make about 750 HP, and where to mount the TB's on the plenum so as not to disrupt air flow to the runners. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Wayne >> ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:24:20 -0500 Subject: Renault/Bendix FI Hello all, Looking for any info at all on the Bendix TBI system used on the 1987 Renault/AMC GTA 2.0L 4 cyl. The number on the Bendix controller box is 8933002526 Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:54:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: EFI Intake This is of interest to me too, as I'm thinking about a custom intake as well. The Jeff Hartman EFI book talks about this abit. He says that the best way it to have a T'body feed into the side of the plemun at the middle. Does that make sense? Rather than putting the T'body at the front or back of the plenum. If you have a look at a 5.0L mustang they have what he suggests, if you look at a chevy TPI they have what he doesn't suggest. How did you decide on 80% for the plenum volume? thanks jw On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 WLundquist@xxx.com wrote: > To anyone interested, > I am currently designing a plenum box to be cast in aluminium to fit on top > of a tunnel ram manifold for a BB Chevy. The plenum will be about 80%+ the > volume of the engine and all opening will be radiused to enhance flow. My > concern is that I will use 2 throttle bodies to supply enough air, I want to > make about 750 HP, and where to mount the TB's on the plenum so as not to > disrupt air flow to the runners. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > Wayne > ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:02:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: EFI Intake I'm using two T'bodies as well. I'm doing that because if costs almost nothing to scrounge two 60mm T'bodies from a wrecker. These will flow about the same as one 85mm T'body. If you a working with something bigger than a 5.0L with a fairly lumpy cam and are thinking about a 5psi supercharger/intercooler then this is not an unresonable sized T'body. cheers jw On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com wrote: > Hi Wayne, > For optimum distribution, the TB's should be one on each side of the > plenum, staggered in the center of the runners,,,,,but with enough plenum area > TB placement is not of much concern......btw why two TB's????? I can get you > a 2100cfm+ throttle body,,,it is dominator bolt pattern, has two large oval > butterflies, can be progressive or 1:1, uses GM TPS & IAC,,,,,,,,just a > thought.....hth's > -Carl Summers > > ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:11:17 EST Subject: Re: Renault/Bendix FI In a message dated 99-02-28 15:40:37 EST, n5xmt@xxx.net writes: >Hello all, >Looking for any info at all on the Bendix TBI system used on the 1987 >Renault/AMC GTA 2.0L 4 cyl. >The number on the Bendix controller box is 8933002526 >Thanks, >Dave > > >From what I remember: Throttle body is Renault/ import specific. Injector is a GM unit. Idle Control Motor is a GM carb unit TPS _maybe_ a GM unit,( it may have a WOT switch) auto trans cars have a seperate TPS unit.(electronic shift) O2 sensor is a Ford one wire unit. Coolant temp sensor has a two wire pig tail with a GM weather pack connector. MAP sensor is a GM unit Fuel pump uses a resistor mounted on the right front fender well.(near the starter solenoid) Knock sensor is Renault/import specific. Crank sensor is a magnetic pickup. It would probably interchange with the Jeep Renix FI. Also most 1.4 Renault/AMC used a similar system without a knock sensor. California 1.4 cars used a Bosch L- jet system ( multi port ). The stock unmodified 2.0 was used in a Sports Car Club of America(SCCA) Spec Racer. These cars have since upgraded to a 1.9 Ford Escort engine, so parts may be out there collecting dust in someones garage. Harold ------------------------------ From: Marcel Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:11:21 +0100 Subject: Electronic AFM adjustments & large injectors. Ok, I've been reading in the archives a bit, researching on increasing fuel capacity by adding larger injectors, which I plan to do to accomodate a turbo project. I read AFM voltage output is proportional to natural log of airflow. Well, a little mathematics tells me, if you multiply airflow by .91 across the board (lying to the ECU to compensate for 10% larger injectors), AFM voltage will have to decrease with a constant (ln .91) amount across the board. So, if I add some kind of offset control to shift AFM voltages down a bit, am I right to conclude this gives me a LINEAR decrease of the airflow reading across the board, which will decrease injector pulsewidth linearly, exactly compensating for bigger injectors or at least better than spring tension tweaking? Just a brain fart from a newbie who has been reading a bit :) Marcel ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:37:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Electronic AFM adjustments & large injectors. > So, if I add some kind of offset control to shift AFM voltages > down a bit, am I right to conclude this gives me a LINEAR decrease > of the airflow reading across the board, which will decrease > injector pulsewidth linearly, exactly compensating for bigger > injectors or at least better than spring tension tweaking? > > Just a brain fart from a newbie who has been reading a bit :) > > Marcel > Partly right - partly wrong. It will work as you say untill the airflow maxes out the AFM - then it gets non-linear real fast. ------------------------------ From: Benjamin Marsh Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:41:44 +1100 (EST) Subject: Speed Sensor The L-jet in my Soob is giving a fault code 33 which corresponds to a speed sensor in the workshop manual - I have pulled the dash out to try and find it. The closest thing I can find is a 3" long plastic strip with metal tabs at each end and a thing in the middle that kinda looks like a high voltage light bulb. Is this the speed sensor? ii so will just replacing it fix the problem or is the speed sensor somewhere else that I haven't looked. When driving at moderate load I can feel the car slightly shudder and then the ECS light comes on - is the speed sensor at fault or is it a sort of limp home mode thing on the comp? The car feels to go a lot better when the ECS light is off rather than on... Car is a 1987 Leone RX Turbo Ben ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:35:50 -0600 Subject: GM ECM I have a late model GM "hardened" ECU labled serv. no 16211539 BWJX. It uses two 80 pin connecors. Intenally it has two boards /assemblies hooked together with a 25 wire ribbon connector. They are labeled 16197037 and 16197044. It has 5 major chips, all smt. Board 1 1. 33 pins X 4 sides G88E, YQQQJ9707N about 15/16" square 2. 17 pins x 4 sides A552fk43, 96768, DELCO 466 about 15/16" square 3. 44 pin dip Intel Flash AB28F200BC,E 5021AC, U60502J5D Board 2 two 3/4" square 13 pins x 4 sides 1. E28B, LQQVJ9608F 2. SYMBIOS LOGIC 728, 195053, 609-0390949, FP00113, 9642R ONE 8 PIN REMOVEABLE DEVICE WITH a square chip with 4 pins each side that is about 5/64" square.... looks like the piece from "Terminator". Can anyone dump or program the flash??? What kind of processor is it??? (It's not a M-HC11) Help. Tom S ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:37:22 -0600 Subject: Ford EEC-IV Can anyone send me a Bin file from a Ford ECC-IV, preferably early 90's vintage. Thanks Tom S ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:47:11 -0500 Subject: 730 in a buick... Looking to find any info on a 730 ECM in a 1987 Buick Somerset Regal, 2.5L 4cyl... Any one have table locations etc? My brother just bought one and wants me to help him pump it up a bit. Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Stuart Bunning Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:07:20 +1100 Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV Maybe i am also after the same thing I pulled down a EEC-IV from a early 80's car i got from a swap meet the IC8 which is supposed to be a 8763 eprom is not and has never been soldered into the pcb. So i was wondering how the hell this ECU ever worked.. Is the eprom on some eec-iv's stored in the cpu ??? or was the guy who selled it to me lying when he said "yeh is works perfectly the car was running just before i stripped it.. The PCB has a clean protecting coating sprayed onto the pcb so i can't even see how someone could desolder it and cover up there handy work ???? For anyone interested in AUSTRALIA is was suppored to be out of a XF falcon.. At 10:37 PM 28/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >Can anyone send me a Bin file from a Ford ECC-IV, preferably early 90's >vintage. > >Thanks Tom S > Best Regards, STUART BUNNING SALES ENGINEER KENELEC SCIENTIFIC PTY LTD 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132 AUSTRALIA PHONE: 61 3 9873 1022 FAX: 61 3 9873 0200 EMAIL: stuart@xxx.au WEB: http://www.kenelec.com.au/ ------------------------------ From: Stuart Bunning Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:12:57 +1100 Subject: Re: GM ECM >ONE 8 PIN REMOVEABLE DEVICE WITH a square chip with 4 pins each side >that is about 5/64" square.... looks like the piece from "Terminator". I can't help to much with your questions but your wrong about the terminator chip that was found in the 16211533 BWT2. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #138 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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