DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 3 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 141 In this issue: RE: ALDL, again RE: ALDL project My ALDL is running Propane Re: 730 in a buick... RE: Propane Re: EFI for Propane streetdyno software Holley 4D1 Re: streetdyno software Re: Holley 4D1 Re: ALDL, again Re: streetdyno software Re: Inquiry on EFI testing System Re: streetdyno software RE: ALDL project Re: ALDL, again Re: ALDL, again Re: ALDL project Re: ALDL project Re: ALDL, again Re: EFI for Propane Re: UEGO bias (Heater requirements) Re: Newbie ALDL question RE: Holley 4D1 RC fuel injectors for sale Re: ALDL, again RE: ALDL, again See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guenther,Max" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:17:54 -0500 Subject: RE: ALDL, again How do you get copies of GM's papers? Are they on the web anywhere? Thanks, Max >---------- >From: Barry Tisdale[SMTP:btisdale@xxx.com] >Reply To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 10:23 PM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: ALDL, again > >Still working on the ALDL / PC thing. I've gotten *several* copies of the GM >paper on the diagnostic link; all are probably from the same source, way back >when, as they all contain the same typos and inaccuracies. > >Has anyone actually 'decoded' the actual data, i.e., converted the raw data >into meaningful information? Some of the calcs given in the GM paper are >just plain wrong. Lots of data acronyms have no references elsewhere in the >paper; I can only guess @xxx. Some are obvious, many are >cryptic. > >Anybody gone through this? I'd like to help / collaborate w/ anyone on this; >hardware to get the data from ALDL to COM port is easy, works well. Software >to capture & log the data doesn't require a genius (after all, I did it in >QuickBasic). Trouble is, "what do it all mean..."? > >Any help *very* gladly accepted - thanks - Barry > ------------------------------ From: Barry Tisdale Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:50:56 -0500 Subject: RE: ALDL project 1991 GMC Syclone 4.3 turbo ECM# 1227749 Scan ID: 3971 Delco ID: AYBN 4175 GM part # 16164174 Actual chip being used is an aftermarket, but lookup table, open loop changes only. Data xmitted by stock chip & aftermarket chip corresponds. Thanks - Barry At 07:57 PM 3/1/99 -0800, you wrote: >If you list the part number and Chip broadcast code perhaps we can find >something. >Ward > ------------------------------ From: DAVE_HEMPSTEAD@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:48:29 -0500 Subject: My ALDL is running To everyone with ALDL questions. I've got a 95 GM ECM running a 96 LT-1. I received lots of help from others on this list (and other lists), and now have an ALDL scanner running. In fact I used it last night to look at the desired idle speed. Remember, nearly ECM uses a different command set, but if you are interested, you will find lots of info on my web page. Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/1624 I've got a schematic for the ALDL to PC comm port. I've got a description for MY ALDL commands. I've got an executable for running on your Windows 95 (or 98 I think) laptop. It lets you see all the raw data plus decoded data updated on the screen. I've got disassembled code from inside my ECM. Have fun. Good luck. Dave Hempstead dave_hempstead@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: John_Warr-1@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:00:40 +0000 Subject: Propane Ray wrote: >The relief valve would have to stand up to the vaporizing propane, but >the injecter would only see warm liquid at a 30 PSI pressure difference. >What needs to be found is an injecter that is sturdy enough to withstand >330 PSI without bursting. 330 psi.... that is about 22 bar in christian units. Surely, that is a fairly trivial pressure in the diesel world, where 30 bar is " normal ", and equipment works up to about 3 MPa. IMHO Y'rs &c John Warr '75 XJ-S... can pass anything on the road... except a petrol station. ------------------------------ From: Teller.John@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:46:53 -0500 Subject: Re: 730 in a buick... Yes, the Somerset is in fact a 2-door N body (aka Grand Am or Calais). It was only made for a few years -- 85 to 87 I think. When Buick quit making the X body Skylark, it started making a 4-door version of the Somerset which it rebadged as Skylark. My 85 Somerset has the 1226864 ECM with the 2.5L 4-cyl - currently undergoing a serious rebuild! Ludis Langens on 03/01/99 03:49:38 PM Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu To: Diy_efi cc: (bcc: John Teller/ORBVA) Subject: Re: 730 in a buick... David A. Cooley wrote: > Looking to find any info on a 730 ECM in a 1987 Buick Somerset Regal, 2.5L > 4cyl... That's a strange combination. The Somerset Regal is just a Grand Am (N body), right? If so, it should probably have a '748 with the 2.5. The '730 would imply a 2.8, or perhaps a 2.0. > Any one have table locations etc? My brother just bought one and wants me > to help him pump it up a bit. We need more information - a P4 ECM can have many different table arrangements. What is the 8th byte of the EPROM? - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:56:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Propane Hey John, Catch me offline. I'd love to hear about that bike! I've got a few XSs! rick > -----Original Message----- > From: John_Warr-1@xxx.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 9:01 AM > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@xxx.edu > Subject: Propane > > Ray wrote: > > >The relief valve would have to stand up to the vaporizing propane, but > >the injecter would only see warm liquid at a 30 PSI pressure difference. > >What needs to be found is an injecter that is sturdy enough to withstand > >330 PSI without bursting. > > 330 psi.... that is about 22 bar in christian units. Surely, that is a > fairly trivial pressure in the diesel world, where 30 bar is " normal ", > and equipment works up to about 3 MPa. > > IMHO > > > Y'rs &c > > > > John Warr > > '75 XJ-S... can pass anything on the road... except a petrol station. > ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:17:28 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI for Propane On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:15:41 -0500 > From: Raymond C Drouillard > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: EFI for Propane > > > Very good point! Even here in Michigan, it would be a good idea to get > the documentation on the standards. It makes good sense to build the > system to safety standards that were developed from exerience. Some > experience is very costly... > > Ray I'm in the middle of a move so it might be a while but I still have the Ontario lpg inpectors training manual. If I find it soon, I'll scan it and upload it ( I also did the installers course so manuals are around for that as well) > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:28:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: streetdyno software First, has anyone verified that this is at all accurate? Second, where would the best place for the recorder to be? Under the hood? Andy _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Eric J. Lilleness" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:54:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Holley 4D1 I'm considering a Holley 4Di for a moderately built Ford 460, about 475 HP. My main goal is passing emissions, but I would also like some of the other features of EFI, such as not hitting 2500 RPM when I cold-start the damn thing at 0530 to go to work....... As an FYI, I had a shop to the actual motor R&R, but picked all the components myself, as well as porting the heads, so feel free to send questions on big Fords my way. Questions: (1) How will emissions on a Holley 4Di equipped engine compare to a factory EFI? (2) Is there a way to insure that (as an example) the front right injector will always be the injector that fires during the #1 cylinder's intake stroke? This would seem to require that the ECU "knows" what cylinder each ignition pulse is intended for. (3) If the answer to the above is "no", will emissions be about the same as, or worse than batch-fired port injection? (4) Is the timing of the injector firing progammable in a manner similar to ignition advance varying as a function of RPM? (5) Iv'e heard a few love/hate stories on Holley EFI; but how are their current products, especially the 4Di? Thanks, Eric ------------------------------ From: Daniel Ciobota Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:16:44 -0600 Subject: Re: streetdyno software Andy et al., I'm not sure if I posted on the list that I already verified the street dyno to be within 10hp of my last professional chassis dyno runs, and that was before a few additional minor mods. So, yes, I consider it to be pretty accurate for tuning. I ran the voltage divider wire through the stock firewall plug and drilled for an rca connector in a hidden spot on my center console. I wouldn't recommend running any kind of recording equipment under the hood; the heat would destroy it pretty quickly. I was planning to do more street dyno runs, but, alas, I sold the mustang and purchased a vette. I'm in the process of learning more about aldl, so you folks out there talking about it have a very attentive audience... I saw the laptop interface, and as soon as I have the time I'll do some data dumps. Btw, my vette is an 89 (L98 tpi motor), anyone have experience with those? Daniel ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:40:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Holley 4D1 I had a 900cfm 4Di. I just bought another one sunday. They are great for power and tuneability. I don't know about emmisions, but they should be just fine if tuned properly. The injectors fire sequentially. Yes, all 4. One injector fires, then the next, and so on. Andy - ---"Eric J. Lilleness" wrote: > > I'm considering a Holley 4Di for a moderately built Ford 460, about 475 HP. > > My main goal is passing emissions, but I would also like some of the other > features of EFI, such as not hitting 2500 RPM when I cold-start the damn thing > at 0530 to go to work....... > > As an FYI, I had a shop to the actual motor R&R, but picked all the components > myself, as well as porting the heads, so feel free to send questions on big > Fords my way. > > Questions: > > (1) How will emissions on a Holley 4Di equipped engine compare to a factory EFI? > > (2) Is there a way to insure that (as an example) the front right injector > will always be the injector that fires during the #1 cylinder's intake stroke? > This would seem to require that the ECU "knows" what cylinder each ignition > pulse is intended for. > > (3) If the answer to the above is "no", will emissions be about the same as, > or worse than batch-fired port injection? > > (4) Is the timing of the injector firing progammable in a manner similar to > ignition advance varying as a function of RPM? > > (5) Iv'e heard a few love/hate stories on Holley EFI; but how are their > current products, especially the 4Di? > > Thanks, Eric > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:39:41 +0000 Subject: Re: ALDL, again > Still working on the ALDL / PC thing. I've gotten *several* copies of the GM paper on the diagnostic link; all are probably from the same source, way back when, as they all contain the same typos an> > Has anyone actually 'decoded' the actual data, i.e., converted the raw data into meaningful information? Some of the calcs given in the GM paper are just plain wrong. Lots of data acronyms have no > > Anybody gone through this? I'd like to help / collaborate w/ anyone on this; hardware to get the data from ALDL to COM port is easy, works well. Software to capture & log the data doesn't require a> > Any help *very* gladly accepted - thanks - Barry > I am looking at obd-2 data, some of the J2190 packet data could be similiar. I have made vehicle units to hook into scan tool to decode. Have been looking at a 96 C-3500 which also sends out 8192. I am still sorting thru the 1792 possible obd-2 J1979 open std messages. I will work on ALDL and KWP2000 next and glad to help. alex ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:12:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: streetdyno software andy quaas wrote: > > First, has anyone verified that this is at all accurate? Second, > where would the best place for the recorder to be? Under the hood? > > Andy OK, I haven't tried StreeDyno yet, but I have been using HomeDyno and I can verify that it's right on. I've got some charts to show the results on http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/Amigo/Turbo/dynoruns.htm Specifically, I've charted the HomeDyno with the chassis dyno (done by ProDyno in Temp, AZ) results and they're just about right on. http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/Amigo/Turbo/Images/dyno_preturbo_home_pro_composite.jpg One caveat is that HomeDyno can only plot out to about 5000 rpm with my recordings. I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing that there's enough noise that it confuses it at that rpm. The voltage divider method of StreetDyno might work better in that respect. I only make runs to 5500 so I'm not too worried about it. It could also be the inductive sensor I wired up as it doesn't seem to be a common problem. The point? This is all just basic physics. You have to know your weight and gearing and guess pretty good at things like frontal area and drag coeffiecient for this to be accurate. If you've got a chassis dyno plot to compare against, it's pretty easy to figure the unknowns in. I can only imagine that StreetDyno is capable of the same accuracy as HomeDyno. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:55:16 +0000 Subject: Re: Inquiry on EFI testing System The Echlin lab in Conn. is in transistion and possible for sale. They have several engine dynos, CARB approved emission lab, mileage acumulation and test facilities for duarability of fuel injectors, o2 sensors and brakes. alex > Hello Everyone, > I am an engineer in China Automobile Technology Research Center. > Granted by the Director of the center, we are going to build up a test > center to control the quality of automobile control system including > engine EFI subsystem. But I don't know where I should begin with. Is > there any similar center in the states? > What I want to know is: > 1) Needed equipments and suppliers > 2) Related standards > 3) Related URLs. > Thank you very much for your help! > I would be very grateful if you send emails directly to me. > > Best regards, > Qiang Chen > > > ================================== > Qiang Chen > 9-2-16,Nanjiang Xili, Jialing Rd., > Nankai District, Tianjin 300113, > P.R.China > Phone: 86(22)2769-3021 > Email: q_chen@xxx.net > > > > ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:05:19 +0000 Subject: Re: streetdyno software > OK, I haven't tried StreeDyno yet, but I have been using HomeDyno and > I can verify that it's right on. I've got some charts to show the > results on http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/Amigo/Turbo/dynoruns.htm > > Specifically, I've charted the HomeDyno with the chassis dyno (done > by ProDyno in Temp, AZ) results and they're just about right on. > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/Amigo/Turbo/Images/dyno_preturbo_home_pro_composite.jpg > > One caveat is that HomeDyno can only plot out to about 5000 rpm with > my recordings. I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing that there's enough > noise that it confuses it at that rpm. The voltage divider method of > StreetDyno might work better in that respect. I only make runs to 5500 > so I'm not too worried about it. > > It could also be the inductive sensor I wired up as it doesn't seem to > be a common problem. > > The point? This is all just basic physics. You have to know your weight > and gearing and guess pretty good at things like frontal area and drag > coeffiecient for this to be accurate. If you've got a chassis dyno > plot to compare against, it's pretty easy to figure the unknowns in. > > I can only imagine that StreetDyno is capable of the same accuracy as > HomeDyno. Would it help to calculate the road load HP by coast down? These results 55 to 45 can be found in IM240 lookup table you can down load(large) at EPA web site. There is also a frontal area roadload HP correction formula in Code of Federal Register used for testing. alex ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:07:02 -0800 Subject: RE: ALDL project Your AYBN Calibration is a P4 series ECM using the ecm you listed, the applications are: my 1991 1/2 4.3l LB5 vin Z Syclone Truck my 1992 4.3l LB5 Vin Z 'T' truck my 1992 4.3l LB5 Vin Z 'T' truck I suspect that this is a uneque series not used by other platforms. 8192 baud in a "handshake" modality. There are 5 different Comm modes Mode 1: Diagnostic data, 63 bytes long Mode 2: A memory dump (64 contagious bytes at a time) Mode 3: Selectable memory bump, may format and dump up to 8 bytes Mode 4: Provides the ability to alter specific ECM function on the fly. AFR. EGR SPK Etc. Mode 7: Command mode, (restores normal operation) All of these command require the issuance of a message request for each occurrence of the desired mode. I assume from your prior e-mail you are using mode one at this time is that correct ? and what else would you like to know ? ard > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Barry > Tisdale > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:51 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: RE: ALDL project > > > 1991 GMC Syclone 4.3 turbo > ECM# 1227749 > Scan ID: 3971 > Delco ID: AYBN 4175 > GM part # 16164174 > > Actual chip being used is an aftermarket, but lookup table, open > loop changes only. Data xmitted by stock chip & aftermarket chip > corresponds. > > Thanks - Barry > > At 07:57 PM 3/1/99 -0800, you wrote: > >If you list the part number and Chip broadcast code perhaps we can find > >something. > >Ward > > > ------------------------------ From: Padgett 0sirius Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:42:45 -0500 Subject: Re: ALDL, again Well just a quick look at my Fiero (1227170/APR0164) ALDL (C3) gives a stream like this: 000 A4 00 2A 4D C5 00 38 3B 14 80 90 00 20 00 60 24 010 1A 87 90 01 4A 00 97 00 68 A0 00 2A 4B C5 00 37 020 34 14 80 8F 00 20 00 60 25 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 030 00 70 A0 00 2A 46 C5 00 36 33 14 80 8E 00 20 00 040 60 24 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 00 6E (then repeats for the next frame). 00 2a (42) is the reported PROM ID. Diacom software interprets as follows: Engine Speed................... 1275 RPM Vehicle Speed.................. 0 MPH Coolant Temperature............ 224 F Manifold Air Temperature....... 106 F Throttle Sensor Voltage........ 0.40 VDC MAP / Vacuum Sensor Voltage.... 1.08 VDC Oxygen Sensor Voltage.......... 628 mV Oxygen Sensor Transitions...... 1 # Battery Voltage................ 13.6 VDC Idle Air Position.............. 70 # Injector Pulse Width........... 1.7 mS Spark Advance.................. 26.1 DEG EGR Duty Cycle................. 0 % Integrator..................... 128 # Block Learn Multiplier......... 144 # Closed Loop Status............. Off Fuel Mixture Status............ Rich Battery Status................. Norm Torque Converter Clutch........ Off Park/Neutral Switch............ Off Power Steering Switch.......... Off EGR Diagnostic Switch.......... Off Learn Control.................. Off Using available data, it seems likely that the "A0" at offset 019h (sorry, I find it easier to think in hex) is coolant temp (1.35*160-8), "33" at offset 039h is the RPM (1275/4=51/33h), & 46h at offset 035h is IAC (70). Suspect the rest can be decoded the same way once I get a chance to compare several readings. Or is all of this common knowlege /way off ? Am trying to come back up to speed. A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:20:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: ALDL, again On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Padgett 0sirius wrote: > Well just a quick look at my Fiero (1227170/APR0164) ALDL (C3) gives a > stream like this: > 000 A4 00 2A 4D C5 00 38 3B 14 80 90 00 20 00 60 24 > 010 1A 87 90 01 4A 00 97 00 68 A0 00 2A 4B C5 00 37 > 020 34 14 80 8F 00 20 00 60 25 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 > 030 00 70 A0 00 2A 46 C5 00 36 33 14 80 8E 00 20 00 > 040 60 24 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 00 6E > (then repeats for the next frame). > > 00 2a (42) is the reported PROM ID. Diacom software interprets as follows: > > Engine Speed................... 1275 RPM > Vehicle Speed.................. 0 MPH > Coolant Temperature............ 224 F > Manifold Air Temperature....... 106 F > Throttle Sensor Voltage........ 0.40 VDC > MAP / Vacuum Sensor Voltage.... 1.08 VDC > Oxygen Sensor Voltage.......... 628 mV > Oxygen Sensor Transitions...... 1 # > Battery Voltage................ 13.6 VDC > Idle Air Position.............. 70 # > Injector Pulse Width........... 1.7 mS > Spark Advance................... 26.1 DEG > EGR Duty Cycle................. 0 % > Integrator..................... 128 # > Block Learn Multiplier......... 144 # > Closed Loop Status............. Off > Fuel Mixture Status............ Rich > Battery Status................. Norm > Torque Converter Clutch........ Off > Park/Neutral Switch............ Off > Power Steering Switch.......... Off > EGR Diagnostic Switch.......... Off > Learn Control.................. Off > > Using available data, it seems likely that the "A0" at offset 019h (sorry, > I find it easier to think in hex) is coolant temp (1.35*160-8), "33" at > offset 039h is the RPM (1275/4=51/33h), & 46h at offset 035h is IAC (70). > Suspect the rest can be decoded the same way once I get a chance to compare > several readings. > > Or is all of this common knowlege /way off ? Am trying to come back up to > speed. >From my experience, your conclusions are correct. And knowing this, with a few more frames you should be able to decode all of the info displayed by diacom. There is probably some additional info that is in the data stream but not displayed by diacom. There are quite a few bits of info I found about, and decoded, that were in the raw diacom file but not displayed by diacom. Roger ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: ALDL project Boy this mode 4 sounds neat, any clues about how that's actually done.. Bruce >Mode 1: Diagnostic data, 63 bytes long >Mode 2: A memory dump (64 contagious bytes at a time) >Mode 3: Selectable memory bump, may format and dump up to 8 bytes >Mode 4: Provides the ability to alter specific ECM function on the fly. AFR. >EGR SPK Etc. >Mode 7: Command mode, (restores normal operation) > >All of these command require the issuance of a message request for each >occurrence of the desired mode. >and what else would you like to know ? >ard ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:47:24 EST Subject: Re: ALDL project sorry, I should read eevrything in the mailbox before I start typing.. MV: > > my 1991 1/2 4.3l LB5 vin Z Syclone Truck > my 1992 4.3l LB5 Vin Z 'T' truck > my 1992 4.3l LB5 Vin Z 'T' truck > ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:44:08 EST Subject: Re: ALDL, again Allow me; GMC Syclone ECM, 1227749, 8192 baud, BC code is AYBM-4052 I have the same . HTH Mike V > Most likely you are unaware that GM has around a hundred different diag data > standards, There are four different data xmission standards, including OBD > II. perhaps is you stated your needs ..... ECM P/N, and or broadcast code > ... > Ward > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Barry > Tisdale > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:23 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: ALDL, again > > > Still working on the ALDL / PC thing. I've gotten *several* copies of the > GM paper on the diagnostic link; all are probably from the same source, way > back when, as they all contain the same typos and inaccuracies. > > Has anyone actually 'decoded' the actual data, i.e., converted the raw data > into meaningful information? Some of the calcs given in the GM paper are > just plain wrong. Lots of data acronyms have no references elsewhere in the > paper; I can only guess @xxx. Some are obvious, many are > cryptic. > > Anybody gone through this? I'd like to help / collaborate w/ anyone on > this; hardware to get the data from ALDL to COM port is easy, works well. > Software to capture & log the data doesn't require a genius (after all, I > did it in QuickBasic). Trouble is, "what do it all mean..."? > > Any help *very* gladly accepted - thanks - Barry > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:37:17 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI for Propane I was just at the SAE Exposition in Detroit (where else?) There was an LPG injection system on display. The system was just like a non-return EFI system, right down to the submerged fuel pump in the tank. The injectors were mounted in the port and were fed from a fuel rail. The hoses were high pressure, though. The injectors were white and very large in diameter (the coil part). The engine was a Ford 5.4 Triton V8. Next to the injectors was another gismo that looked just like a really long injector but there was no fuel line. After scratching my head for a while and noticing a potted circuit board in the top, I realized that this thing covered a spark plug. It appears to be an integral coil that clips right to the plug. There is a 2 conductor connector for each one. On another note, there was also a company, Adrenaline Research, selling a combination plasma ignition and ion sensor. http://www.adrenalineresearch.com/smartfire.htm Gary Derian ------------------------------ From: "Ezra Hall" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:32:32 -0500 Subject: Re: UEGO bias (Heater requirements) Bob, Thanks for the info. I am interested in the schematics you have, any chance you could scan them? Or fax them? I am particularly interested in any information on protection of the pumping cell until proper temp has been obtained, or any other conditions that might be using to determine when it is safe to enable the feedback loop. The patents I have looked at do not provide enough details, and I don't want to "blacken" my sensor... I made some measurements tonight on my UEGO sensor to determine the Thermal Coef of resistivity for the heating element. I did this by measuring its resistance at room temp, then at ~200DegC (heated the unit for 30minutes in the oven). I fashioned a 10mA current source (calibrated to +-2%), and used this to apply current to the heating element to more accurately measure resistance. To measure temp, I placed a thermocouple in one of the holes on the sensor tip, and wrapped the assembly tightly in Al foil. Here are the measurements at various temps as it heated up. The last measurement was after approx. 30 minutes in the oven. Temp (C) R (ohms) Coef (Ohm/C) 25 3.02 NA 165 4.39 0.0098 209 4.89 0.0102 220 4.95 0.0099 221 5.06 0.0104 I will use 0.01 Ohm/Deg C for simplicity, any idea what metal is used? I then sampled heater current vs. time (2Hz sample rate) while applying 5 volts then 10 volts to the heater. Here are a few data points for reference: Time Amps Volts Ohms Deg C 0.00 1.23 4.90 3.98 121.37 10.00 1.06 4.90 4.62 185.26 20.00 1.01 4.90 4.85 208.15 30.00 0.97 4.90 5.05 228.15 40.00 0.94 4.90 5.21 244.28 50.00 0.94 4.90 5.21 244.28 60.00 0.93 4.90 5.27 249.88 70.00 1.64 9.70 5.91 314.46 80.00 1.40 9.70 6.93 415.86 90.00 1.33 9.70 7.29 452.32 100.00 1.29 9.70 7.52 474.94 110.00 1.27 9.70 7.64 486.78 Sitting in free air, this thing obviously is not going to reach 650 Deg C with 9.7 volts to the heater in any reasonable amount of time. That would explain all the patents on controlling the temp of these sensors by using resistance as the feedback parameter of a simple control system... I will CC the diy-efi list in case anyone else is interested in this info. Steve Gorkowski sent me some pictures of current vs. time for his sensor, so I know he will be interested. Let me know if you can send me any additional info from the NTK documents. Thanks, Ezra - -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hale x594 To: ehall@xxx.net> Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 4:20 PM Subject: UEGO bias >I saw your posting in the diy_efi archives regarding the heater voltage >for the wide range Honda sensor. I was looking for data on such sensors >for my own purposes, and thought that I would forward what I have learned >to you. > >I contacted NGK/NTK regarding wide range sensors and they eventually sent >me some data. They didn't want to acknowledge the Honda part number, but >they did send me data on a sensor which appears to be identical to the >Honda sensor, based on descriptions that I have read in the diy_efi >archives. > >The NTK UEGO part number is TL-7111-W1, and NTK wants $600 plus an >agreement to not sell it, to use it only on an engine, etc. The >companion interface box is another $400, and the cable is $60. > >The NTK data says that the heater supply voltage is 10.5 +- 0.5 volts, >that the heater resistance is 2.9 to 3.4 ohms at room temperature, >that the pumping current is 3.86 to 5.34 ma with 16% oxygen atmosphere. >It also cautions that the user shouldn't have the sensor present in >an exhaust system if the heater isn't powered up, and shouldn't >install the heater in a low spot where liquid water could condense. >Also, prohibitions on fuel that contains lead, phosphorous, sulfur, >and silicon are in effect. There is a conceptual schematic diagram >of how to implement instrumentation around it (no component values). > >The sensor is a two-stage unit: the first stage is supplied with >a current and that pumps oxygen into a chamber where the second >stage reacts that oxygen with exhaust gas with a 450 mv bias present. >The exhaust oxygen content is inferred by measuring the current in the >second stage. > >I hope that this is useful to you. Please feel free to make use >of it as you see fit. > >Best regards, > >Bob Hale bob_hale@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Carsonwv@xxx.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:11:11 EST Subject: Re: Newbie ALDL question Yeah, I am still interested in the project, I must have mistated myself with the diodes. I did use 4 2n4400 transistors. I have gotten some stuff out, but it only seems to work if I plug the wire to the serial in while the ignition is on. I'd be interested in trying your Qbasic program if you get a chance. I am tentatively going to try and write something in Visual Basic but am having problems with my new motherboard. I believe my board is wired ok I made 2 and they both sdo the same thing... (for all I know I made both incorrectly) Thanks Bill ------------------------------ From: "Eidson, Mark" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:35:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Holley 4D1 I have a 700CFM 4Di on a 70 Mustang and it passes emmisions with no problems. Has anyone figured out all the fields in the download file? BTW, the eev21 software won't run, on my Thinkpad 600. It gives a divide error even when run from DOS. Any ideas? me - -----Original Message----- From: andy quaas [mailto:realsquash@xxx.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 2:40 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Holley 4D1 I had a 900cfm 4Di. I just bought another one sunday. They are great for power and tuneability. I don't know about emmisions, but they should be just fine if tuned properly. The injectors fire sequentially. Yes, all 4. One injector fires, then the next, and so on. Andy - ---"Eric J. Lilleness" wrote: > > I'm considering a Holley 4Di for a moderately built Ford 460, about 475 HP. > > My main goal is passing emissions, but I would also like some of the other > features of EFI, such as not hitting 2500 RPM when I cold-start the damn thing > at 0530 to go to work....... > > As an FYI, I had a shop to the actual motor R&R, but picked all the components > myself, as well as porting the heads, so feel free to send questions on big > Fords my way. > > Questions: > > (1) How will emissions on a Holley 4Di equipped engine compare to a factory EFI? > > (2) Is there a way to insure that (as an example) the front right injector > will always be the injector that fires during the #1 cylinder's intake stroke? > This would seem to require that the ECU "knows" what cylinder each ignition > pulse is intended for. > > (3) If the answer to the above is "no", will emissions be about the same as, > or worse than batch-fired port injection? > > (4) Is the timing of the injector firing progammable in a manner similar to > ignition advance varying as a function of RPM? > > (5) Iv'e heard a few love/hate stories on Holley EFI; but how are their > current products, especially the 4Di? > > Thanks, Eric > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Turvovo@xxx.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:04:24 EST Subject: RC fuel injectors for sale For sale: Lucas 370cc/min fuel injectors, Bosch small o-ring style, low impedence Balanced and blueprinted by RC engineering Used for dyno tuning and found to be insufficient for needs, new condition Good for ~225hp at 80% duty cycle Paid $80 each, sell all 4 for $200 If interested please e-mail John Magnuson at turvovo@xxx.com Thanks. ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:59:25 +0000 Subject: Re: ALDL, again If you go the the diy_efi WWW page, click on oem systems, then click gm, then click programming 101 you'll see in there a list of "units", which is how to get from the binary value you see in an PROM (or aldl stream, I suppose) to a real world unit like temp, rpm, mph, map, etc. That may help you decode the stream. - --steve Padgett 0sirius wrote: > > Well just a quick look at my Fiero (1227170/APR0164) ALDL (C3) gives a > stream like this: > 000 A4 00 2A 4D C5 00 38 3B 14 80 90 00 20 00 60 24 > 010 1A 87 90 01 4A 00 97 00 68 A0 00 2A 4B C5 00 37 > 020 34 14 80 8F 00 20 00 60 25 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 > 030 00 70 A0 00 2A 46 C5 00 36 33 14 80 8E 00 20 00 > 040 60 24 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 00 6E > (then repeats for the next frame). > > 00 2a (42) is the reported PROM ID. Diacom software interprets as follows: > > Engine Speed................... 1275 RPM > Vehicle Speed.................. 0 MPH > Coolant Temperature............ 224 F > Manifold Air Temperature....... 106 F > Throttle Sensor Voltage........ 0.40 VDC > MAP / Vacuum Sensor Voltage.... 1.08 VDC > Oxygen Sensor Voltage.......... 628 mV > Oxygen Sensor Transitions...... 1 # > Battery Voltage................ 13.6 VDC > Idle Air Position.............. 70 # > Injector Pulse Width........... 1.7 mS > Spark Advance.................. 26.1 DEG > EGR Duty Cycle................. 0 % > Integrator..................... 128 # > Block Learn Multiplier......... 144 # > Closed Loop Status............. Off > Fuel Mixture Status............ Rich > Battery Status................. Norm > Torque Converter Clutch........ Off > Park/Neutral Switch............ Off > Power Steering Switch.......... Off > EGR Diagnostic Switch.......... Off > Learn Control.................. Off > > Using available data, it seems likely that the "A0" at offset 019h (sorry, > I find it easier to think in hex) is coolant temp (1.35*160-8), "33" at > offset 039h is the RPM (1275/4=51/33h), & 46h at offset 035h is IAC (70). > Suspect the rest can be decoded the same way once I get a chance to compare > several readings. > > Or is all of this common knowlege /way off ? Am trying to come back up to > speed. > A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist > Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher > http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html > mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:06:51 -0800 Subject: RE: ALDL, again I think this ia s C3 ECM and your looking at it as async data ? The ECM your looking at has a 25 byte output starting with the 2 byte EPROM ID, this is the scan ID the catch is that the data is syncronous at 160 baud. This data string requires no stimulation it just chatters on endlessly. Calib APR/0164 HAS A SCAN ID OF 0042 Following the 2 ID bytes are some interesting flag bytes, and so on. Coolant si the 4th byte, to conversion is: COOLANT TEMPERATURE, Deg c = (n * 0.75) - 40 (n = the decimal values of the binary output) WARD. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Roger Heflin Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 6:21 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: ALDL, again On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Padgett 0sirius wrote: > Well just a quick look at my Fiero (1227170/APR0164) ALDL (C3) gives a > stream like this: > 000 A4 00 2A 4D C5 00 38 3B 14 80 90 00 20 00 60 24 > 010 1A 87 90 01 4A 00 97 00 68 A0 00 2A 4B C5 00 37 > 020 34 14 80 8F 00 20 00 60 25 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 > 030 00 70 A0 00 2A 46 C5 00 36 33 14 80 8E 00 20 00 > 040 60 24 1A 88 90 01 4A 00 97 00 6E > (then repeats for the next frame). > > 00 2a (42) is the reported PROM ID. Diacom software interprets as follows: > > Engine Speed................... 1275 RPM > Vehicle Speed.................. 0 MPH > Coolant Temperature............ 224 F > Manifold Air Temperature....... 106 F > Throttle Sensor Voltage........ 0.40 VDC > MAP / Vacuum Sensor Voltage.... 1.08 VDC > Oxygen Sensor Voltage.......... 628 mV > Oxygen Sensor Transitions...... 1 # > Battery Voltage................ 13.6 VDC > Idle Air Position.............. 70 # > Injector Pulse Width........... 1.7 mS > Spark Advance................... 26.1 DEG > EGR Duty Cycle................. 0 % > Integrator..................... 128 # > Block Learn Multiplier......... 144 # > Closed Loop Status............. Off > Fuel Mixture Status............ Rich > Battery Status................. Norm > Torque Converter Clutch........ Off > Park/Neutral Switch............ Off > Power Steering Switch.......... Off > EGR Diagnostic Switch.......... Off > Learn Control.................. Off > > Using available data, it seems likely that the "A0" at offset 019h (sorry, > I find it easier to think in hex) is coolant temp (1.35*160-8), "33" at > offset 039h is the RPM (1275/4=51/33h), & 46h at offset 035h is IAC (70). > Suspect the rest can be decoded the same way once I get a chance to compare > several readings. > > Or is all of this common knowlege /way off ? Am trying to come back up to > speed. >From my experience, your conclusions are correct. And knowing this, with a few more frames you should be able to decode all of the info displayed by diacom. There is probably some additional info that is in the data stream but not displayed by diacom. There are quite a few bits of info I found about, and decoded, that were in the raw diacom file but not displayed by diacom. Roger ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #141 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".