DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 5 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 146 In this issue: 4L80E / ALDL Re: Handheld O-Scope Re: Voltage controller? EEC Report Re: Voltage controller? Re: aluminum intake cosmetics Re: How do AICs work? Re: Voltage controller? RE: aluminum intake cosmetics Re: How do AICs work? Re: Handheld O-Scope ALDL +ECM document Re: MPFI and SFI Re: aluminum intake cosmetics (Sand Blasting) Re: ALDL +ECM document Re: How do AICs work? Re: EEC Report Re: Handheld O-Scope Re: Voltage controller? Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG Re: How do AICs work? Re: How do AICs work? Re: Handheld O-Scope RE: aluminum intake cosmetics New to list, have a question. Grass roots Water Injection/ injectors See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Niinikoski Juha Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:44:45 +0200 Subject: 4L80E / ALDL Hi I am new on the list and don't know if this is right place to start 4L80E TCM thread ? I have 97 N/A diesel Hummer with 4L80E electronic transmission. Some time ago I decided to try to build a display unit with what you can watch few most critical transmission parameters like temperature TCC slippage and possible clutch slippage. So far I have managed to hack ALDL interface and protocol. Of course this happened by the hard way. First I taught that Hummer 97 Implementation where OBD-II because of OBD-II like connector but it is ALDL 8192. I have build couple of display prototypes. One with Motorola HC12 CPU and 4x40 LCD display.HC12 contains also 8-channell A/D converter. I have plan to include some other measurements too. Second one is really cheap build with Microchip PIC16F84 "washing machine" processor and 2x20 LCD. If anybody is interested I can provide more information about my projects. Where I need help. 1. I am now stuck with decoding parameters what TCM provides. I have found most easy / evident ones like RPMs, temperature, selector switches etc. Most of the response data is still unknown for me. Do anyone have documents or more information about 4L80E ALDL commands / responses ? 2. What is the right way to start communication with TCM. I have figured out that read parameters command is F5 57 01 00 B3 but you need to give command twice first time. After ALDL bus have "woken up" you need only one command to get response. If you do not issue new commands within about one second bus goes to sleep mode again. Are there some sort of wake up procedure or is this (sending first command two times) right way to do it ? Juha Niinikoski Espoo Finland 97 N/A Diesel Hummer ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:18:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope SFI at 6000RPM is 30CPS, ganged injectors (double fire) is 60CPS. That's .06 Khz. Ford MAPs run something around 300Hz. I'd say a 5mhz should be lots. The handhelds are nice, but like a scope-meter the display is puny. Better to find one of the older diagnostic scopes (can't remember the make, but I used to have one) that ran off the car battery for in-shop use. There were several occaisions where it rode in the passenger's seat with me in the back and the apprentice driving so I could find out what was going on on the road. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:28:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Voltage controller? Use a voltage to grequency conversion, then have the frequency output drive a 555 oneshot. By tuning both the frequency output and the pulse width you pwm control the pump. I'm no engineer either, but both circuits are bretty simple. Could likely use 555 for both stages, or even run one as a monostable with the MAP connected to the control terminal - would give you roughly 2:1 ratio range? ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 07:27:39 -0600 Subject: EEC Report As the list ole-timers know, I was a member of this list for a long time ..... but, I started a list dedicated specifically to the Ford EEC-IV and "herding" the list has monopolized my "spare" time. I have checked back in to report that we've been quite successful (perhaps this has already been reported here ??? don't know). The current status: . there is now source code for many eecs -- and some of those have been partially disassembled . the engine control data parameters have (mostly) been identified and found in memory . there are now at least three products available that will allow you to take advantage of your EEC (here they are, in the order of their "release" / introduction to the EEC list): 1 - Andy's EECSUCKA PCB board allows reading the memory from any eec-iv (cost, about $25 for bare PCB .... group buy now in progress, if you're interested) .... Andrew March http://www.icenet.com.au/~amarch/eec.htm 2 - Matt Happy at Auburn Performance Equipment has introduced his product called the "SpeedBrain", which replaces the '87-'95 (I'm not certain of the exact years) Mustang MAF EFI. This is what most folks are converting to when they do mods -- but, it leaves out those who have the E4OD tranny. Auburn Performance Equipment http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/sb.htm 3 - Eric Goehl has just completed an EEC "adaptor board". This is what the elusive "calibrator" was to have been. It plugs into your existing EEC computer (err, cornfuzer on the BB list ;-) ...... and allows you to examine the memory and to change any and all control parameters -- or to even substitute a totally new / different program if you're clever enough ! .... the beauty of this is it allows you to control _ANY_ eec-iv on any vehicle (by saying eec-iv, I've excluded eec-v which, I think, is on '96 and later trucks). The disadvantage to Eric's unit is the software exists but is not as good as we or Eric want it to be, so it is still being worked on .... expect some really cool stuff once the guys on the eec list get tired of arguing about which "platform" to use ;-) http://www.eec-tuner.com/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ cost of these units is (approximation only here .... I'm working with a 'faded' cranial cornfuzer 1 - eecsucka .... about $25 ..... but, it's purchase is complicated by Andy being down under and there's a problem with converting to Aussie funny-money ;-) 2 - SB costs about $700. 3 - eec tuner from Eric is about $300 (once again, very reasonable for what you get -- esp considering what it'd cost you to do it yourself). Finally, if anyone is interested in the technical side of the EEC, consider joining the EEC list ..... and there is information posted at various www and ftp sites. Write me for info. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:56:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Voltage controller? U> se a voltage to grequency conversion, then have the frequency output > drive a 555 oneshot. By tuning both the frequency output and the pulse > width you pwm control the pump. > I'm no engineer either, but both circuits are bretty simple. Could > likely use 555 for both stages, or even run one as a monostable with the > MAP connected to the control terminal - would give you roughly 2:1 ratio > range? > Just thought of a possibly simpler method. Use a FORD MAP, which is a variable frequency output, and run the one-shot off of it. ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:09:55 -0500 Subject: Re: aluminum intake cosmetics About the sandblasters: I seem to remember a while back buying a blaster for around $25 or $30 from an auto body supply house. It looked like the head of a paint gun, without the cup, and had replaceable ceramic venturis. The tube coming out of the bottom where the cup would normally be simply had a hose attached, the other end had another tube that could be shoved into the top of a bag of sand. Attach air at the base of the handle and you're done. The cabinet mentioned before would be perfect to use with this gun, with some cheapo lexan panel to view through. The whole thing could probably be built for less than $60. But didn't the original post state that the intake was already blasted? If you want to powdercoat it, get the $99 kit from eastwood. I think it's eastwood.com, but you can surely get there from myclassiccar.com. You need around 10 psi air and a cheapo oven, and pretty soon you'll be coating all kinds of parts for you and your buddies, and paying for the setup in no time. Anything you can fit into an oven can be done, including brackets, alternator bodies, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, etc. Like someone else already said, he buys the tools instead of paying the labor, and I'd wager HPC would be charging more than $100 to coat your intake. Jim Yeagley 1996 Dodge Indy Ram See it and many others at: www.indyram.org 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:52:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: How do AICs work? soren wrote: > > >If I need to intercept and modify the MAF signal anyways, then I'd much > >rather swap to larger injectors than run the rising rate FPR or plumb in > >additional injectors. It's much cleaner I think, doesn't have any bad > >sides that I can see (so long as I don't go so big it won't idle) and > >it's much more stealthy. I'll have a much better chance of sliding this > >whole thing by the smog police if I don't have a huge regulator or extra > >fuel lines and injectors running everywhere. > > > >Any insight is appreciated. > > > I definitely agree that larger injectors are the way to go depending on > your budget. The lack of extra plumbing is definitely a plus. However, if > the ECM is reacting to the extra boost and going to 100% duty cycle on the > stock injectors but cannot react to the change in fuel mixture caused by an > additional injector (because it is in open loop), how could it react to the > change in fuel mixture caused by the larger injectors when the ECM commanded > 100% d.c.(again in open-loop)? It appears to me as if they would be similar > in actual function. > > Soren Rounds Regardless of how the extra fuel is added, the idea is to keep the ECM from commanding 100% d.c. by intercepting the MAF signal, changing (reducing) it, and then passing it on to the ECM. How much to reduce it is the tricky part as the MAF output is not linear to the airflow through it. In the case of the addition injector or higher fuel pressure, I'd have to figure houw much to reduce the MAF signal based on how much extra fuel the higher pressure or extra injectors will dump. i.e. if the extra injectors are dumping 30% of the total fuel, the MAF signal to the ECM would have to be reduced enough such that the ECM injects 30% less fuel. With larger injectors that flow say 50% more fuel than stock, the MAF signal would need to be reduced enough so that the ECM would inject only 66% of the fuel it would of from the un-modified signal. When it's in open-loop WOT, it reads the MAF directly and squirts an appropriate amount of fuel. The extra fuel from having larger injectors is offset by a shorter pulsewidth (and therefore duty cycle) commanded by the ECM from seeing a lower signal from the MAF. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: rr Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:06:06 -0800 Subject: Re: Voltage controller? Dan, If you wanted to convert the 5v MAP to a 12v signal, relative, use an op-amp. Just use an amp with a gain of 2.4 (12 / 5). Use this in the non-inverting configuration. The only problem with this is head-room, most amps won't go to the plus rail. A better approach might be PWM. Look in the 'incoming' directory for the files: PWM2.gif and PWM2.txt (not sure of the exact case). These are the circuit diagram and writeup for a PWM controller that can be used with any permanent magnet DC motor. This circuit can be driven from the MAP with only an Op-amp buffer at the front end. For more op-amp stuff (ideas), get ahold of a National Semi Linear databook, or hit their web site for app notes. They have a ton of stuff on practical uses of op-amps. (AN-20 & AN-31 are good ones). BobR. P.S. The files FprErr.gif & .txt also have some novel uses of op-amps. Daniel Houlton wrote: > > Hi. Me again. Sorry, but I've got more questions. For my turbo, I don't > yet have an intercooler and don't know when I will. In the meantime, I've > planned on building a water injection system using basically a boost > pressurized tank and a couple pumps to provide a pressure differential to > inject water after the turbo. > > Instead though, it's very likely that I'll be getting an ERL AquaMist from > a friend to try out. This is the $500 job I think. Uses a high pressure > magnetic/diaphram pump or something. I won't be getting the controller > they sell for it, just the basic system. > > I'm pretty sure I read on their page that the pump pressure is controlled > by a 0 - 12V signal. It could be it's just driven by 0 - 12V, but I > thought it was a seperate signal. Power is through a seperate 12V > supply. Maybe not though. This is how their controller controlls it. > How would I produce this signal from a MAP sensor? > > Say I get a 2 Bar sensor. These are linear from 0 - 5V representing > vacuum - ~15 psi (over ambient) right? Now if the MAP sensor put out 0 - 12V > instead and the pump took a 0 - 5V signal, I could just use a pot and > direct connect the sensor to the pump. I need to go the other way though. > I need to step up the 0-5V MAP signal to a 0 - 12V signal for the pump. > > Any suggestions how to do it? What about if instead of a 0 - 12V signal > I need a 0 - 12V power (presumably much higher amps than the MAP can > supply) source? What I need is something like a 30 amp relay that can > supply a variable voltage instead of full voltage or none. I'm sure > something like this exists, but I'm (obviously) not an EE so I don't know > what to look for. > > Oooh! What about an "electronic" pot? Something that can control > resistance from a voltage signal instead of physically turning a dial? I > could then provide full, high amp voltage to the pump through a relay and > run it through this "electronic" pot. The pot would adjust the resistance > according to the MAP output. Map signal goes up signalling pot resistance > to go down and the pump gets more voltage resulting in higher water > pressure. > > A seperate Hobbs switch could control the relay to arm the system at > whatever boost pressure I want. Is this totally off the wall or is it > doable? > > thanks > --Dan ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:09:45 -0500 Subject: RE: aluminum intake cosmetics Jim, FWIW, I have one of these and it worked but not all that great. And I had a big compressor pushing it. I got my job done but really had to work to get it - took forever. Haven't touched it since. My son has it if he hasn't pitched it! rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Yeagley [SMTP:jimyeagley@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 8:10 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: aluminum intake cosmetics > > About the sandblasters: > > I seem to remember a while back buying a blaster for around $25 or $30 > from > an auto body supply house. It looked like the head of a paint gun, > without > the cup, and had replaceable ceramic venturis. The tube coming out of the > bottom where the cup would normally be simply had a hose attached, the > other > end had another tube that could be shoved into the top of a bag of sand. > Attach air at the base of the handle and you're done. The cabinet > mentioned > before would be perfect to use with this gun, with some cheapo lexan panel > to view through. The whole thing could probably be built for less than > $60. > Jim Yeagley > 1996 Dodge Indy Ram > See it and many others at: www.indyram.org > 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) > webmaster@xxx.org > jimyeagley@xxx.net > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:16:32 -0500 Subject: Re: How do AICs work? - -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Houlton To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:04 AM Subject: Re: How do AICs work? While it's common practice not to exceed 85%, if your oem calibration does, what makes you believe that for that application 100% is wrong?. You mention smog police, and steathy, ya really think they'll miss the turbo?. Did you ever figure out for sure if the MAF is voltage or freq?. Bruce >soren wrote: >> >> >If I need to intercept and modify the MAF signal anyways, then I'd much >> >rather swap to larger injectors than run the rising rate FPR or plumb in >> >additional injectors. It's much cleaner I think, doesn't have any bad >> >sides that I can see (so long as I don't go so big it won't idle) and >> >it's much more stealthy. I'll have a much better chance of sliding this >> >whole thing by the smog police if I don't have a huge regulator or extra >> >fuel lines and injectors running everywhere. >> > >> >Any insight is appreciated. >> >> >> I definitely agree that larger injectors are the way to go depending on >> your budget. The lack of extra plumbing is definitely a plus. However, if >> the ECM is reacting to the extra boost and going to 100% duty cycle on the >> stock injectors but cannot react to the change in fuel mixture caused by an >> additional injector (because it is in open loop), how could it react to the >> change in fuel mixture caused by the larger injectors when the ECM commanded >> 100% d.c.(again in open-loop)? It appears to me as if they would be similar >> in actual function. >> >> Soren Rounds > > >Regardless of how the extra fuel is added, the idea is to keep the ECM from >commanding 100% d.c. by intercepting the MAF signal, changing (reducing) it, >and then passing it on to the ECM. How much to reduce it is the tricky part >as the MAF output is not linear to the airflow through it. > >In the case of the addition injector or higher fuel pressure, I'd have to >figure houw much to reduce the MAF signal based on how much extra fuel the >higher pressure or extra injectors will dump. i.e. if the extra injectors are >dumping 30% of the total fuel, the MAF signal to the ECM would have to be >reduced enough such that the ECM injects 30% less fuel. > >With larger injectors that flow say 50% more fuel than stock, the MAF signal >would need to be reduced enough so that the ECM would inject only 66% of the >fuel it would of from the un-modified signal. > >When it's in open-loop WOT, it reads the MAF directly and squirts an appropriate >amount of fuel. The extra fuel from having larger injectors is offset by a >shorter pulsewidth (and therefore duty cycle) commanded by the ECM from seeing >a lower signal from the MAF. > > >--Dan > ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 09:25:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope At 08:18 AM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >SFI at 6000RPM is 30CPS, ganged injectors (double fire) is 60CPS. That's anyone looking for scopes ?? I have two -- one an HP (don't have model or BW, but suspect it's about 20 MHz) and the other, a Phillips PM-3055 with 60 MHz BW. Both are benchtop scopes -- not handheld. Also have some other test equipment and a Weller WTCP soldering iron in good condition, if anyone's interested. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: DAVE_HEMPSTEAD@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:32:31 -0500 Subject: ALDL +ECM document Hi, A month or so ago, someone posted a document on a GM ECM from either the late 80's (88-89) or early 90's describing how that software worked, and a bunch of the ALDL commands. It gave a very nice description of some of the filtering done on the signals, and how some of the engine settings were calculated. Unfortunately, I didn't keep an electronic copy, and have been asked for a copy of it. Can anyone re-point me to this document??? THanks, Dave Hempstead ------------------------------ From: Terrill Yuhas Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:42:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: MPFI and SFI On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terrill Yuhas > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:20 AM > Subject: MPFI and SFI > > Your terms are so general that I'm lost at what you mean. Do you want to > change ecms, or > cars?. If ecms what do you have?. > Bruce > Sorry about that. I found a nice 3400 V6 in a minivan. The ECM had already been pirated. I wondered if the 1227730 that I currently have could still run the 3400 even though it is SFI and my injection system is currently set up as batch fire. Terrill ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:42:55 -0500 Subject: Re: aluminum intake cosmetics (Sand Blasting) Let me second Jim's comment. Keep the sand Dry! I had a lot of problems with my pressurized sandblaster clogging. It was caused by moisture in the compressed air. I had a water trap on the input to the sandblaster, but it didn't work in the humid northeast summers. I moved the compressor to my basement, and put 30 feet of copper tubing looped through my Basement (usually 10 degrees cooler than the outside temp). My water seperator really started to fill up, and my sandblaster stopped clogging. Cooling the air really helped seperate the water, and gave me dryer air. Ken Jim Davies wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Pedro Haynes wrote: > > > > > Once i found a diagram of a sand blaster that you can build from an old > > propane tank. If I am lucky enough to find it I will post the site. > > > A sandblast cabinet can be made from plywood, K3 board etc and will last a > long time if you do not sandblast the cabinet directly. Sears used to sell > a cheapo sandblaster that can be easily converted to use in the cabinet. > These units came with steel nozzles, but ceramic were available from Sears > for a reasonable price [this was a few years ago...] Cheap, but > effective... Sand is pretty cheap by the sack. I usually used 20-30 for > sheet metal, cast iron or whatever. Glass beads are a lot more money and > often are a waste of time IMO. When the sand gets dirty, rounded off, etc > it stops working. At the price of sand, you can afford to dump it. Keep > the sand dry... ------------------------------ From: Tedscj@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:09:27 EST Subject: Re: ALDL +ECM document In a message dated 3/5/99 10:35:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, DAVE_HEMPSTEAD@xxx.com writes: > Hi, > A month or so ago, someone posted a document on a GM ECM from either the > late > 80's (88-89) or early 90's describing how that software worked, and a bunch > of > the ALDL commands. It gave a very nice description of some of the filtering > > done on the signals, and how some of the engine settings were calculated. > Unfortunately, I didn't keep an electronic copy, and have been asked for a > copy > of it. Can anyone re-point me to this document??? > http://members.home.com/syclone/Turbo_P4_Doc.pdf Assuming the link still works. ------------------------------ From: "soren" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:17:59 -0800 Subject: Re: How do AICs work? >While it's common practice not to exceed 85%, if your oem calibration does, >what makes you believe that for that application 100% is wrong?. Oh yeah I forgot to mention that apparently the injectors on my turbo Impulse run at 98% duty cycle under boost in stock trim (Hitachi fuel injection, 8 psi boost). That figure is from some literature from Isuzu; tested levels appear as 100% on my crappy multimeter duty cycle setting. I've never had an injector lock up on me. Soren Rounds ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:18:29 +0000 Subject: Re: EEC Report > Finally, if anyone is interested in the technical side of the EEC, > consider joining the EEC list ..... and there is information posted > at various www and ftp sites. Write me for info. Hey Tom, Thanks for posting the links and the write up... just bookmarked all of them. I recently aquired on the cheap a nearly complete EFI system out of an 1988 Grand Marquis that I was able to start and run at various RPMs before the battery died that I have brought into the car (junk car didn't have an alternator). Anyway, the ecm says: E8SF-AE1A 8KD I have the injector harness, the sensor harness minus the O2 sensor portion, someone had already disconnected them unfortunately, but I do have the MAF (I think its a MAF) the throttle body/valve, and the IAC and all the connectors. I've had this for a few weeks now and debating for my Mopar 431 stoker that's coming down the pike very soon applying this ECM to the hardware. Originally, I was going GM TPI, as I have a complete setup for this as well (1993 Camaro). For some reason, the Ford stuff was much easier to get/obtain and much cheaper. Anyway, I'm just updating ya :) Do you have the links for the EEC-IV project website(s) as well as the mailing list? I was subscribed for a while, but apparently no longer and am missing the links. Would be appreciated! - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:28:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope Hi Tom, didn't know you were still on the list. I might be interested in one of your scopes, what's your price range? - --steve cloud@xxx.edu wrote: > > At 08:18 AM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: > >SFI at 6000RPM is 30CPS, ganged injectors (double fire) is 60CPS. That's > > anyone looking for scopes ?? I have two -- one an HP (don't have model > or BW, but suspect it's about 20 MHz) and the other, a Phillips PM-3055 > with 60 MHz BW. Both are benchtop scopes -- not handheld. Also > have some other test equipment and a Weller WTCP soldering iron > in good condition, if anyone's interested. > > Tom Cloud - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:38:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Voltage controller? rr wrote: > > Dan, > > If you wanted to convert the 5v MAP to a 12v signal, relative, use an > op-amp. Just use an amp with a gain of 2.4 (12 / 5). Use this in the > non-inverting configuration. The only problem with this is head-room, > most amps won't go to the plus rail. > > A better approach might be PWM. Look in the 'incoming' directory for > the files: PWM2.gif and PWM2.txt (not sure of the exact case). > Thanks, I just found that on the ftp site this morning. I think that'll do what I want. I got on the ERL site to do some more checking. They say the pump is controlled by varying frequency and duration of the controlling pulse. In the specs for the pump, they list an Input voltage of around 14V, Input current of 8A, and a control input of 0-12V @xxx. This would be a PWM signal right? Does the voltage in this case of the control input matter? Since the motor has a seperate power source wouldn't a particular pulse frequency @ say 4V have the same result as the same pulse @ 8, 10 or 12V? thanks - --Dan ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:52:04 -0800 Subject: Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG <> Damn skippy! That's how to do it. No aux injectors, no rising rate FPR, or any band-aids like that. Go with larger injectors, and fab up the dual-pot MAF sensor signal intercept. It's the cleanest low buck way to get the job done (in your case). You can mount the pots in your glovebox if you want! No SMOG check is going to get you if you make the wiring appear OEM (w/ OEM connectors, tie-wraps, etc.). I'm not so lucky. I'm in CA, and have to get the car SMOG checked every two years. I'll have to remove the ENTIRE custom turbo set-up: Electromotive TEC II, larger injectors, FPR, copper headgasket (have to raise the CR back up to 10:1), 3" exhaust & 3" downpipe, J-pipe, all plumbing, all TEC II wiring, install an OEM wiring harness to the engine...ARRRGH!!! I guess I could use it as an excuse to swap in a freshly bored out short block, while I have the head off. Maybe upgrade to all forged pistons/rods. =) Anybody go to a SMOG referee station to get their car exempted? I can dial the emissions in to better than OEM w/ the TEC II and a laptop. Or, I could have a "SMOG" program just for it, w/ the EGR functioning as well. CA SMOG test is simple enough. They check the car at 900 rpm for 30 seconds, then 2500 rpm for 30 or 45 seconds, then check it again at 900 rpm. Visual inspection checks the fuel filler flap (so the car can't use leaded), the Cat, the EGR vacuum pump test, vacuum lines, and a watchful eye for any aftermarket goodies (turbo/NOS/SC, etc.). Thoughts on the SMOG ref station? If I didn't pass, the car would be VIN marked for life! =( Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:00:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: How do AICs work? Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Houlton > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:04 AM > Subject: Re: How do AICs work? > > While it's common practice not to exceed 85%, if your oem calibration does, > what makes you believe that for that application 100% is wrong?. Because of everything I've read on fuel injecton and injectors say that a duty cycle that high will damage the injectors in short order. Some say 80% is the limit. Some say 90%. But they all agree that 100% is bad. Also, I doubt my OEM calibration does exceed 80 or 85%. The engine never made enought hp stock to need it. It's only hitting 100% I'm sure because of the extra hp the turbo is making. > You mention smog police, and steathy, ya really think they'll miss the > turbo?. Not sure. I'm in AZ and I've found them to be somewhat liberal in what they'll let pass as long as it looks safe and passes the sniffer. I had an un- certified header last time I went in, but it retained the EGR and O2 sensor and passed the sniffer no problem so they didn't say a word. I also called before putting the header on and spoke to one of the techs that do the tests. He said as long as no smog equipment is removed and it passes the sniffer they don't much care if the actual parts have an smog number on them or not. My turbo actually looks very factory installed other than the induction hoses which I plan to re-do by then to make it look cleaner and neater. I do believe that unless I get one that know Amigos, they won't know it didn't come from the factory. And even if they do, I doubt they'll flunk it unless I mess with the smog equipment or it fails the sniffer. The extra injectors and lines just make it look less factory. > Did you ever figure out for sure if the MAF is voltage or freq?. It's definitely voltage. Previously I had it only up to about 4.3 V, but I hooked the meter back up to it last night and took it out on the freeway and at high loads and boost, it got 5.7V out of it. This was around 4500 rpm or so and about 8 psi of boost which isn't quite where the injectors maxed out yet. The MAF has 3 wires: 12V power (regulated 12V I think, not battery voltage.), ground and the signal wire. I really would like to get it flow tested to plot the V out against the cfm it flows. Can't find a place that can do it though. I did check the manual for my automotive multimeter and it turns out it can measure frequency from MAFs (RTFM right?) using one of the modes intended for measuring rpm. Havent tried it yet though to see. thanks - --Dan ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:04:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: How do AICs work? soren wrote: > > > >While it's common practice not to exceed 85%, if your oem calibration does, > >what makes you believe that for that application 100% is wrong?. > > > Oh yeah I forgot to mention that apparently the injectors on my turbo > Impulse run at 98% duty cycle under boost in stock trim (Hitachi fuel > injection, 8 psi boost). That figure is from some literature from Isuzu; > tested levels appear as 100% on my crappy multimeter duty cycle setting. > I've never had an injector lock up on me. > > Soren Rounds > That's interesting. Do you happen to know who makes them or what type they are? Bosch, Lucas, pintle, disc, etc? - --Dan ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:00:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope Any scope is better than no scope, but the rule of thumb is that the scope BW oughta be 5X the signal of interest. The scope will lie to you about the waveform otherwise. Slow scopes won't show you hi-frequency noise/ringing/ oscillation riding your signal levels, for instance. Frequently an issue, especially on breadboards. There are lots of 100 Mhz Teks out there surplus, typically $300-500. These can be very good value for money. Don't buy an analog storage scope. (Unless you want one). Different animal. I've been using a 50 Mhz Tek 556 for years, a genuine dinosaur :) It's an awesome piece, but I keep thinking about those 30-year-old electrolytics ... Regards, Jack Daniel Houlton wrote: > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Just saw an ad for one in MCM flyer > > Handheld O-Scope 5 Hz $199 > > (800) 543-4330 > How much use is this? I don't know much about them other than the higher > the frequency, the higher the cost. What's the minimum we should be looking > for to do EFI type stuff or just general circuit building? Is this one > good enough to be useful or will it rapidly show it's limitations? I've > seen 20, 30, 60 and up to 100 Hz scopes. How much is really needed? Hi Dan. ------------------------------ From: Michael Kasimirsky Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:35:56 -0500 Subject: RE: aluminum intake cosmetics > High Performance Coatings--Salt Lake City, Okie City. Do not > have number > handy, Let me know if 1-800 info cannot get it for you. > > They do headers, pistons, manifolds, chambers, ports, you > name it. (Several > different types of coatings.) I had the exhaust system on a Suzuki GSX-R750 coated by HPC and I was not impressed. It cost over $200 for the coating and the pipe rusted in less than two years. I've heard of people getting better results than I did, but they won't be getting any more money from me to find out. If anything, I'd use Jet Hot Coatings since at least they offer a 3 year warrantee. But in reality, I'll buy stainless pipes or get used to frequent reapplication of high-temp paint. Michael Kasimirsky 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer Loki Motorsports 1993 Kawasaki ZX1100D1 Streetbike Rider FASTTRAX & WERA Expert #21 Sponsored by Loki Motorsports & Bridgestone mtk@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: esc Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:46:33 -0600 Subject: New to list, have a question. Hi everyone, I'm Eric Comstock and I just joined this list. I thought I would start by asking a question. First my situation. I am working on a Chevy 350 using a Holley Projection4 TBI. This is one of the origional analog units that used the MSD controller. I also have the closed loop kit (O2 only) installed. So it gets inputs from the throttle position sensor, the distributor(RPM), the starter, coolent temperature, and the O2 sensor. I installed a shut-off switch on the Closed loop kit, so that baseline adjustments can be easily made. The closed loop kit intercepts the TPS voltage and adjusts it in order to fool the computer into adjusting the fuel flow. OK, everything worked fairly well until I installed a RAM-AIR system on the car. Now the difference between high speed on a cold night and low speeds on a hot day is too much for the system to cope with. I'm really not sure what to do about it. The only thing that I have been able to come up with so far is to build my own computer to run things. I am an experienced programmer, but that project would be a little outside of my realm of experience. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Should I just go buy the new Digital Projection system and hope it will work better? Thanks Eric Comstock esc@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:11:14 -0800 Subject: Grass roots Water Injection/ injectors <> Uhh, before blowing all that cash on the AquaMist set-up...PLEASE read this page! It's what the doctor ordered. Grass roots water injection for forced-induction. http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information/MerkurPage.htm#H20 You also mentioned that your injectors were hitting the 100% duty cycle wall under full boost (9psi), and that you heard anything over 80% was dangerous. Well, it depends on a lot of variables, but running most Bosch injectors at 90% is fine. They can handle it all day long. 95% is pushing it. 100% is unacceptable. If you could tweak the injector pulse width values in the code, you could swap in larger injectors and simply run the duty cycle at significantly less at idle...and close the pulsewidth to the about the lowest value the ECU can go (let's say 5ms). Then have normal values up top. That would avoid running extremely rich at idle, but would be fine under boost. One of the problems with my Motronic 2.9 version, is that it can't lower the pulsewidth below about 4ms. When 440cc/min injectors were swapped in, it would run rich at idle. The code couldn't be tweaked any further. Result? Plenty of fuel under boost, but black smoke at idle. Kiss $35 worth of new NGK dual-electrode plugs goodbye. Fouled beyond cleaning. Motronic out, Electromotive in. No more MAF sensor troubles either. Speed Density and forced-induction is a match made in hot rod heaven, IF...you have the right software. =) Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #146 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".