DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 5 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 147 In this issue: Re: How do AICs work? DIS and DIST ref pulse Re: New to list, have a question. RE: aluminum intake cosmetics When you run out of pulsewidth... Re: Voltage controller? Re: EEC Report Re: DIS and DIST ref pulse Re: Grass roots Water Injection/ injectors Re: New to list, have a question. Re: Handheld O-Scope Re: DIS and DIST ref pulse Re: New to list, have a question. Re: Handheld O-Scope Re: Voltage controller? Re: New to list, have a question. Re: New to list, have a question. Re: Handheld O-Scope electronics suppliers Re: aluminum intake cosmetics RE: DIS and DIST ref pulse RE: New to list, have a question. RE: Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG RE: 4L80E / ALDL Re: Handheld O-Scope Re: electronics suppliers Which Intake See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "soren" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:54:25 -0800 Subject: Re: How do AICs work? >> Oh yeah I forgot to mention that apparently the injectors on my turbo >> Impulse run at 98% duty cycle under boost in stock trim (Hitachi fuel >> injection, 8 psi boost). That figure is from some literature from Isuzu; >> tested levels appear as 100% on my crappy multimeter duty cycle setting. >> I've never had an injector lock up on me. >> >> Soren Rounds >> > >That's interesting. Do you happen to know who makes them or what type they >are? Bosch, Lucas, pintle, disc, etc? They are peak & hold type, I think NGK, most likely pintle type. Flow 225 cc/min @85% dc & 43 psi Soren ------------------------------ From: Doug Mansfield Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 12:56:32 -0500 Subject: DIS and DIST ref pulse I understand the DIS/IDI systems use a sync pulse each revolution of the crank, but with Ted's recent SyTy experiments, it seems that the ECM does not use this sync pulse? Does the DIS module "consume" this pulse? I guess what I am really getting at is what does the signal that goes to the ECM look like from a DIS v. DIST system compared to the signal that goes to the module. Are they 5v? When do they go high/go low? Does the module create the pulse for the ECM or does the reluctor? Thanks for any insight. Doug ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:07:57 -0500 Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. - -----Original Message----- From: esc To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:29 PM Subject: New to list, have a question. Welcome aboard. How about using a oem ecm to run the injectors?. If you go to the home page, and oem systems, and parts, there might be some info to help. Also, going through the archives, and searching would help. Bruce >Hi everyone, >I'm Eric Comstock and I just joined this list. > >I thought I would start by asking a question. First my situation. > >I am working on a Chevy 350 using a Holley Projection4 TBI. This is one of >the origional analog units that used the MSD controller. I also have the >closed loop kit (O2 only) installed. So it gets inputs from the throttle >position sensor, the distributor(RPM), the starter, coolent temperature, >and the O2 sensor. I installed a shut-off switch on the Closed loop kit, >so that baseline adjustments can be easily made. > >The closed loop kit intercepts the TPS voltage and adjusts it in order to >fool the computer into adjusting the fuel flow. > >OK, everything worked fairly well until I installed a RAM-AIR system on the >car. Now the difference between high speed on a cold night and low speeds >on a hot day is too much for the system to cope with. > >I'm really not sure what to do about it. The only thing that I have been >able to come up with so far is to build my own computer to run things. I >am an experienced programmer, but that project would be a little outside of >my realm of experience. > >Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? > >Should I just go buy the new Digital Projection system and hope it will >work better? > >Thanks > > >Eric Comstock >esc@xxx.com > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:13:49 -0700 Subject: RE: aluminum intake cosmetics >> High Performance Coatings--Salt Lake City, Okie City. Do not >> have number >> handy, Let me know if 1-800 info cannot get it for you. >> >> They do headers, pistons, manifolds, chambers, ports, you >> name it. (Several >> different types of coatings.) > >I had the exhaust system on a Suzuki GSX-R750 coated by HPC >and I was not impressed. It cost over $200 for the coating and >the pipe rusted in less than two years. I've heard of people getting >better results than I did, but they won't be getting any more money >from me to find out. If anything, I'd use Jet Hot Coatings since >at least they offer a 3 year warrantee. But in reality, I'll buy >stainless Hmmmm--well if you did not go for the "extreme duty " HPC coating, but needed it, that is the first problem. I can't buy stainless headers for my current projects, so am fabricating them from 321 SS (not particularly easy to buy headers in 321 SS anyway), which is the RIGHT stuff for headers. THEN--gonna have HPC put their extreme duty coating on them, inside and out for the thermal qualities--obviously not for corrosion prevention. Prolly gonna insulate the tubes over the coating too, but that's another story. Heat retention is the true purpose of these coatings, not necessarily corrosion protection. And the thermal properties of the coatings were what I was talking to the guys about--- Greg >pipes or get used to frequent reapplication of high-temp paint. > >Michael Kasimirsky 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer >Loki Motorsports 1993 Kawasaki ZX1100D1 Streetbike Rider >FASTTRAX & WERA Expert #21 Sponsored by Loki Motorsports & Bridgestone >mtk@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Ron Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:24:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: When you run out of pulsewidth... Please excuse if this is a naive question - I'm a very interested newbie. The Jag V12's I like to putz with use a coldstart injector in the center of the manifold. If you ran out of duty cycle could you just turn this on to increase fuel volume? Or expand on this with more of a 'throttle body injector' type of arrangement to keep the plumbing down? Got lots of airflow at that time anyway. Ron@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: rr Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 13:19:58 -0800 Subject: Re: Voltage controller? I'm having some trouble following what you are saying. Can you post the URL for the Aqua-mist site? It sounds like the pump itself has some sort of controller built in, that needs another controller to run? As far as the 0-12v@5ma signal, and the level, it would depend upon what the digital level detector's are set to, as to whether a lower voltage would work or not. BobR. > > rr wrote: > > > > Dan, > > > > If you wanted to convert the 5v MAP to a 12v signal, relative, use an > > op-amp. Just use an amp with a gain of 2.4 (12 / 5). Use this in the > > non-inverting configuration. The only problem with this is head-room, > > most amps won't go to the plus rail. > > > > A better approach might be PWM. Look in the 'incoming' directory for > > the files: PWM2.gif and PWM2.txt (not sure of the exact case). > > Dan wrote: > > Thanks, I just found that on the ftp site this morning. I think that'll > do what I want. I got on the ERL site to do some more checking. They > say the pump is controlled by varying frequency and duration of the controlling > pulse. In the specs for the pump, they list an Input voltage of around 14V, > Input current of 8A, and a control input of 0-12V @xxx. This > would be a PWM signal right? Does the voltage in this case of the control > input matter? Since the motor has a seperate power source wouldn't a particular > pulse frequency @ say 4V have the same result as the same pulse @ 8, 10 or > 12V? > > thanks - -- ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:24:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: EEC Report On Fri, 5 Mar 1999 cloud@xxx.edu wrote: > > 2 - Matt Happy at Auburn Performance Equipment has introduced his > product called the "SpeedBrain", which replaces the '87-'95 (I'm not > certain of the exact years) Mustang MAF EFI. This is what most > folks are converting to when they do mods -- but, it leaves out > those who have the E4OD tranny. Auburn Performance Equipment > > http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/sb.htm A possible work-around for the E4OD would be to use a pre-PowerStroke Diesel EECIV computer to control the trans, as that is all it does... ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:29:42 -0500 Subject: Re: DIS and DIST ref pulse - -----Original Message----- From: Doug Mansfield To: Do-it-Yourself Fuel Injection Mailing List Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 1:10 PM Subject: DIS and DIST ref pulse >I understand the DIS/IDI systems use a sync pulse each revolution of the >crank, but with Ted's recent SyTy experiments, it seems that the ECM does >not use this sync pulse? Sync pulse is for SEFI, batch fired don't use it. Bruce Does the DIS module "consume" this pulse? >I guess what I am really getting at is what does the signal that goes to >the ECM look like from a DIS v. DIST system compared to the signal that >goes to the module. Are they 5v? When do they go high/go low? Does the >module create the pulse for the ECM or does the reluctor? >Thanks for any insight. >Doug ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:48:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Grass roots Water Injection/ injectors Jason_Leone@xxx.com wrote: > > < yet have an intercooler and don't know when I will. In the meantime, I've > planned on building a water injection system using basically a boost > pressurized tank and a couple pumps to provide a pressure differential to > inject water after the turbo.Instead though, it's very likely that I'll be > getting an ERL AquaMist from a friend to try out. This is the $500 job I think. > Uses a high pressure > magnetic/diaphram pump or something. I won't be getting the controller > they sell for it, just the basic system.>> > > Uhh, before blowing all that cash on the AquaMist set-up...PLEASE read this Yeah I should have mentioned. I'm not *buying* the AquaMist (not with money anyways), I'm *getting* one, basically free from a friend. I agree they're way too expensive for me, but hey, I can't turn it down. > page! It's what the doctor ordered. Grass roots water injection for > forced-induction. > > http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information/MerkurPage.htm#H20 Been there. Excellent page with temp reduction results and everything. This is pretty much the system I was basing mine on. FYI for those that haven't been there yet, he got better temp reductions with the water injection (< $100) then he did with his custom Spearco air/water IC (~$700). > > You also mentioned that your injectors were hitting the 100% duty cycle wall > under full boost (9psi), and that you heard anything over 80% was dangerous. > Well, it depends on a lot of variables, but running most Bosch injectors at 90% > is fine. They can handle it all day long. 95% is pushing it. 100% is > unacceptable. If you could tweak the injector pulse width values in the code, > you could swap in larger injectors and simply run the duty cycle at > significantly less at idle...and close the pulsewidth to the about the lowest > value the ECU can go (let's say 5ms). Then have normal values up top. That would > avoid running extremely rich at idle, but would be fine under boost. One of the > problems with my Motronic 2.9 version, is that it can't lower the pulsewidth > below about 4ms. When 440cc/min injectors were swapped in, it would run rich at > idle. The code couldn't be tweaked any further. Result? Plenty of fuel under > boost, but black smoke at idle. Kiss $35 worth of new NGK dual-electrode plugs > goodbye. Fouled beyond cleaning. Motronic out, Electromotive in. No more MAF > sensor troubles either. Speed Density and forced-induction is a match made in > hot rod heaven, IF...you have the right software. =) > > Jason > '93 SLC Yeah, that's a big if. If I had an aftermerked EFI I could do about anything I wanted. Too expensive though and I'm not willing to replace the stock ECM. In a sports car? yeah maybe. But not worth it to me for my truck. Even modifying the stock ECM is out since there's no scanners or chip makers for it that I'm aware of. Not sure I'd want to fork over the cash for a one-time chip anyways. Too little bang for the buck. I would go to a complete system like an Electromotive unit before I did that. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 12:54:47 -0600 Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. At 10:46 AM 3/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hi everyone, >I'm Eric Comstock and I just joined this list. > >I thought I would start by asking a question. First my situation. > >I am working on a Chevy 350 using a Holley Projection4 TBI. This is one of >the origional analog units that used the MSD controller. I also have the >closed loop kit (O2 only) installed. So it gets inputs from the throttle >position sensor, the distributor(RPM), the starter, coolent temperature, >and the O2 sensor. I installed a shut-off switch on the Closed loop kit, >so that baseline adjustments can be easily made. > >The closed loop kit intercepts the TPS voltage and adjusts it in order to >fool the computer into adjusting the fuel flow. > >OK, everything worked fairly well until I installed a RAM-AIR system on the >car. Now the difference between high speed on a cold night and low speeds >on a hot day is too much for the system to cope with. Eric, I also have an early ProJection .... doesn't have the EGO feedback though. This is probably not going to be any real help to you, but I thought I'd share some quick thoughts with you . the projection is an alpha-n controller -- only uses rpm and tps to determine fuel flow . the temp input is, as best as I can determine, basically an on-off kind of thing to enrich the mixture and energize the throttle kicker, so I don't consider it a bona fide "input" for normal operation . the "ego feedback" unit is only to keep the system closer to stoic ...... a problem I constantly have is the unit always runs rich .... it can be adjusted leaner, but then it will run entirely too lean at certain points (I have a DPM watching an EGO, so I get a little "feedback" myself ;-) ... if you agree with the above (that the ego feeback is to try to keep the unit from running so rich, and maybe to prevent the operating points where it also runs too lean, and that it's not to really improve on the operating characteristics of the unit ....) . then, consider that a MAP input might be more logical ?? I had entertained the idea of either building my own ego feedback unit or a map feedback unit -- or could actually sum the two together ?? All that's needed is to sum the input from the tps with the conditioned voltage(s) from the other devices. To me, the map input makes more sense and would elevate the unit from the status of simple alpha-n controller to a simple speed-density unit (which their literature claims it is anyway!). Why haven't I done that? The Bronco it's in is my "fun" truck and doesn't get driven often and it has other needs first. Second, I am now collecting parts to put the oem ford maf setup on it. This will cost $1000 or more by the time I'm done, but it should work without hiccups and I don't think any bandaid fix is ever going to really fix the projection (not even their digital unit). just some rambling thoughts on the ProJection ...... Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Chris Conlon Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:02:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope At 12:03 AM 3/5/99 -0500, Bruce Plecan wrote: Bruce Plecan wrote: > Just saw an ad for one in MCM flyer > Handheld O-Scope 5 Hz $199 > (800) 543-4330 I'm looking to get a handheld scope, and I wanted to know if people had any other leads on where to look. Places I've already looked: Fluke / HP / Tek Jameco and the places mentioned a couple weeks back about multimeters and such. Mainly I'd like a better sense of what's out there before I buy. Roughly I'd like 5MHz, dual trace, frequency counter and all the usual multimeter functions, $500 or less. (Which unless I mug someone pretty much rules out the big 3...) TIA, Chris C. ------------------------------ From: Tedscj@xxx.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:01:18 EST Subject: Re: DIS and DIST ref pulse In a message dated 3/5/99 12:59:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, mansfield@xxx.edu writes: > I understand the DIS/IDI systems use a sync pulse each revolution of the > crank, but with Ted's recent SyTy experiments, it seems that the ECM does > not use this sync pulse? Does the DIS module "consume" this pulse? > > I guess what I am really getting at is what does the signal that goes to > the ECM look like from a DIS v. DIST system compared to the signal that > goes to the module. Are they 5v? When do they go high/go low? Does the > module create the pulse for the ECM or does the reluctor? > > Thanks for any insight. > > > Doug My DIS module recieves a synced pulse from the magnetic pickup which is reading a reluctor. The wheel is a "6+1" wheel (actually a pulley that I rigged up). The DIS module DOES NOT send a synced pulse to the ECM. However, there is an unused pin on the DIS module. Perhaps this could be the sync pulse. But with my batchfire ECM (7730) that pin is unused and the plug is molded in such a way that I can't get to it to see what it's doing. Ted ------------------------------ From: esc Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 12:54:57 -0600 Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. At 01:07 PM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: esc >To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> >Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:29 PM >Subject: New to list, have a question. > >Welcome aboard. >How about using a oem ecm to run the injectors?. >If you go to the home page, and oem systems, and parts, there might be some >info to help. >Also, going through the archives, and searching would help. >Bruce > > I'll take a look at the archives. Would you have any suggestions as to what whould be a good (read easy to reprogram) OEM ECM to work with? I would basically be starting from scratch. I do like the idea of being able to write my own code to run things, but I don't have any idea what would be involved on the hardware side of the problem. Eric Comstock esc@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 13:06:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope At 10:28 AM 3/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Tom, didn't know you were still on the list. I might be interested >in one of your scopes, what's your price range? > >--steve I've not been on the list -- and intend to unsubscribe pretty soon. Just joined to report on the eec list's progress. I don't know what's fair for the scopes ...... the each list in Tucker and other used equipment sources for $600 + ..... the Philips because of its bandwidth and the HP for its name. (If bandwidth weren't important, I still don't know which I would choose -- I have two of the Philips and am keeping one for myself, but the HP is nice and it may be easier to get parts for it if it breaks ???) anyway, back to price .... I suppose $250 or so. I'm also looking for parts to do the ford efi on my bronco, so I'm needing lots of ford parts, like a mustang sefi maf harness ('89-'95 mustang), throttle body, injectors, etc, etc. If you're interested in that, I have a long list! So, are you still in Austin ? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:15:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Voltage controller? rr wrote: > > I'm having some trouble following what you are saying. Can you post the > URL for the Aqua-mist site? Sorry, I meant to include that but forgot. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/sys1/sys1a.html#pump That's the paragraph where they say it's controlled by frequency. Follow the "TECH-LINK" link at the end of the paragraph to get to the pump specs. > It sounds like the pump itself has some sort of controller built in, > that needs another controller to run? That's the way it sounds. Reading the paragraph more closely, it does state that it uses an on-board electronic controller. The "TECH" page says "pressure and delivery rate is regulated by internal hi-tech electronic circuitry". Then the specs at the bottom say it takes a 14V, 8A power source and a 0-12V, 5mA digital signal. Maybe it does just take a 0-12V voltage signal and convert it to PWM internally? That's kinda what it's starting to look like again. The word "digital" on the spec for the signal input is what made me think is used a PWM signal. Maybe it's just a buzz-word or marketing thing to make it sound fancier and it just uses a plain analog voltage signal? thanks - --Dan ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:47:41 -0500 Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. - -----Original Message----- From: esc To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. The gm 1227747 might be a good candidate. Some of it's been hacked and at Programming 101. But, some of the code is internal to the ecm. A 1227165, 1227730, have all the program on the memcal. The 747 uses 32K prom, the others 128/256K.. Bruce >>Welcome aboard. >>How about using a oem ecm to run the injectors?. >>If you go to the home page, and oem systems, and parts, there might be some >>info to help. >>Also, going through the archives, and searching would help. >>Bruce >I'll take a look at the archives. >Would you have any suggestions as to what whould be a good (read easy to >reprogram) OEM ECM to work with? >I would basically be starting from scratch. I do like the idea of being >able to write my own code to run things, but I don't have any idea what >would be involved on the hardware side of the problem. >Eric Comstock >esc@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:56:13 -0600 Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. > I'll take a look at the archives. > Would you have any suggestions as to what whould be a good (read easy to > reprogram) OEM ECM to work with? > I would basically be starting from scratch. I do like the idea of being > able to write my own code to run things, but I don't have any idea what > would be involved on the hardware side of the problem. Eric, start at the diy_efi WWW page, click on OEM systems, then click GM. Read the "programming 101" article and the "tuning tips article". They're both about the 1227747 ECM, a TBI ECM used on GM trucks from '88 to '92 or something like that. There won't be much code to write, but a lot of major tables have been figured out so there's some table editing to make it match your particular engine. You can get an EPROM programmer and some junk ECMs a lot cheaper than the holley system.... - --steve > > Eric Comstock > esc@xxx.com - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:32:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope > I've been using a 50 Mhz Tek 556 for years, a genuine > dinosaur :) It's an awesome piece, but I keep thinking > about those 30-year-old electrolytics ... > Tell me about them! I've had two old scopes go "BANG" while I was using them - durn near jumped out of my skin and filled my drawers both times. Smoke and Kapok (or whatever the stuff was - looked like dandelion fluff) all over the room too. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:06:18 -0600 Subject: electronics suppliers help .. someone gave me the name of an online place from whom I got LED and LCD DPMs for something line $6.00 each. They had lots of good stuff cheeeep! Now I can't find their address (lost their bookmark somehow). I know about Newark, Digikey, Mouser, Hosfelt, MCM ... (you can see my automotive and electronic links at http://www.austin.cc.tx.us./ESA/tc_auto.html ) thanks Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: dciobota@xxx.net Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:17:00 -0800 Subject: Re: aluminum intake cosmetics Jim Yeagley wrote: > About the sandblasters: > > I seem to remember a while back buying a blaster for around $25 or $30 from > an auto body supply house. It looked like the head of a paint gun, without > the cup, and had replaceable ceramic venturis. The tube coming out of the > bottom where the cup would normally be simply had a hose attached, the other > end had another tube that could be shoved into the top of a bag of sand. > Attach air at the base of the handle and you're done. The cabinet mentioned > before would be perfect to use with this gun, with some cheapo lexan panel > to view through. The whole thing could probably be built for less than > $60. > I have one of those things and it works, although it's very messy without a sanding box. Eastwood has a bunch of different sandblasting kits and sandblasting boxes. Some of them have another suction hose next to the sandblasting tip to reclaim the sand. Daniel ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:19:19 -0800 Subject: RE: DIS and DIST ref pulse Generally the DIS to ECM/PCM signal is the same as a DRP, Distributor Reference Pulse, active on the falling edge. Engine starting is handled by the DIS module with out help form the ECM/PCM. This is because of the very ling periods between DRP's. Ward > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Bruce > Plecan > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:30 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: DIS and DIST ref pulse > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Mansfield > To: Do-it-Yourself Fuel Injection Mailing List > > Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 1:10 PM > Subject: DIS and DIST ref pulse > > > >I understand the DIS/IDI systems use a sync pulse each revolution of the > >crank, but with Ted's recent SyTy experiments, it seems that the ECM does > >not use this sync pulse? > > Sync pulse is for SEFI, batch fired don't use it. > Bruce > > Does the DIS module "consume" this pulse? > >I guess what I am really getting at is what does the signal that goes to > >the ECM look like from a DIS v. DIST system compared to the signal that > >goes to the module. Are they 5v? When do they go high/go low? Does the > >module create the pulse for the ECM or does the reluctor? > >Thanks for any insight. > >Doug > > ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:19:20 -0800 Subject: RE: New to list, have a question. Bruce, exllent idea, a GM 1227747 would be perferct, it well documented and cheep. Ward. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Bruce > Plecan > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:08 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esc > To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> > Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:29 PM > Subject: New to list, have a question. > > Welcome aboard. > How about using a oem ecm to run the injectors?. > If you go to the home page, and oem systems, and parts, there > might be some > info to help. > Also, going through the archives, and searching would help. > Bruce > > > >Hi everyone, > >I'm Eric Comstock and I just joined this list. > > > >I thought I would start by asking a question. First my situation. > > > >I am working on a Chevy 350 using a Holley Projection4 TBI. > This is one of > >the origional analog units that used the MSD controller. I also have the > >closed loop kit (O2 only) installed. So it gets inputs from the throttle > >position sensor, the distributor(RPM), the starter, coolent temperature, > >and the O2 sensor. I installed a shut-off switch on the Closed loop kit, > >so that baseline adjustments can be easily made. > > > >The closed loop kit intercepts the TPS voltage and adjusts it in order to > >fool the computer into adjusting the fuel flow. > > > >OK, everything worked fairly well until I installed a RAM-AIR > system on the > >car. Now the difference between high speed on a cold night and > low speeds > >on a hot day is too much for the system to cope with. > > > >I'm really not sure what to do about it. The only thing that I have been > >able to come up with so far is to build my own computer to run things. I > >am an experienced programmer, but that project would be a little > outside of > >my realm of experience. > > > >Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? > > > >Should I just go buy the new Digital Projection system and hope it will > >work better? > > > >Thanks > > > > > >Eric Comstock > >esc@xxx.com > > > ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:19:22 -0800 Subject: RE: Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG Jason, I don't think so, The hardware has to be OEM, ECM sensors etc, The referee will by an engine swap if you swap a car engine into a car or truck/truck, but you can't pick and choose. It has to be an identifiable OEM configuration, else you don't get to the emission test part of the program, you go to exit do not pass go. This leaves using the OEM processor, generally a much better choice anyway, but you need to hack the code or by commercial code mod programs, they are amiable for a lot of applications. And as for the 2 step test, If you have a heavy duty truck, you got it right, otherwise its to the BAR97 Dyno test. The NOX portion usually gets the hot car guys in California. Of course you can sign up as a limited production car maker and start out with EPA 75 emissions testing, shed test etc. The EPA 75's are $750 a pop. Ward > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of > Jason_Leone@xxx.com > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 8:52 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Cc: Daniel Houlton > Subject: Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG > > > < rather swap to larger injectors than run the rising rate FPR or plumb in > additional injectors. It's much cleaner I think, doesn't have any bad > sides that I can see (so long as I don't go so big it won't idle) and > it's much more stealthy. I'll have a much better chance of sliding this > whole thing by the smog police if I don't have a huge regulator or extra > fuel lines and injectors running everywhere.>> > > Damn skippy! That's how to do it. No aux injectors, no rising > rate FPR, or any > band-aids like that. Go with larger injectors, and fab up the dual-pot MAF > sensor signal intercept. It's the cleanest low buck way to get > the job done (in > your case). You can mount the pots in your glovebox if you want! > No SMOG check > is going to get you if you make the wiring appear OEM (w/ OEM connectors, > tie-wraps, etc.). > > I'm not so lucky. I'm in CA, and have to get the car SMOG checked > every two > years. I'll have to remove the ENTIRE custom turbo set-up: > Electromotive TEC II, > larger injectors, FPR, copper headgasket (have to raise the CR > back up to 10:1), > 3" exhaust & 3" downpipe, J-pipe, all plumbing, all TEC II > wiring, install an > OEM wiring harness to the engine...ARRRGH!!! > > I guess I could use it as an excuse to swap in a freshly bored > out short block, > while I have the head off. Maybe upgrade to all forged pistons/rods. =) > > Anybody go to a SMOG referee station to get their car exempted? I > can dial the > emissions in to better than OEM w/ the TEC II and a laptop. Or, I > could have a > "SMOG" program just for it, w/ the EGR functioning as well. CA > SMOG test is > simple enough. They check the car at 900 rpm for 30 seconds, then > 2500 rpm for > 30 or 45 seconds, then check it again at 900 rpm. Visual > inspection checks the > fuel filler flap (so the car can't use leaded), the Cat, the EGR > vacuum pump > test, vacuum lines, and a watchful eye for any aftermarket goodies > (turbo/NOS/SC, etc.). Thoughts on the SMOG ref station? If I > didn't pass, the > car would be VIN marked for life! =( > > Jason > '93 SLC > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:19:26 -0800 Subject: RE: 4L80E / ALDL I thnk your project has merit, I also think the PIC chip is a winner for this kind of application. How bout dumping the data to a flash chip for use later, the real time display is of limited use and you can eliminat all the junk in the the truck. I can probably help with the decoding, Ill check back. Ward > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Niinikoski > Juha > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 4:45 AM > To: 'DIY_EFI@xxx.edu' > Subject: 4L80E / ALDL > > > Hi > I am new on the list and don't know if this is right place to start 4L80E > TCM thread ? > > I have 97 N/A diesel Hummer with 4L80E electronic transmission. Some time > ago I decided to try to build a display unit with what you can watch few > most critical transmission parameters like temperature TCC slippage and > possible clutch slippage. So far I have managed to hack ALDL interface and > protocol. Of course this happened by the hard way. First I taught that > Hummer 97 Implementation where OBD-II because of OBD-II like connector but > it is ALDL 8192. > > I have build couple of display prototypes. One with Motorola HC12 CPU and > 4x40 LCD display.HC12 contains also 8-channell A/D converter. I > have plan to > include some other measurements too. Second one is really cheap > build with > Microchip PIC16F84 "washing machine" processor and 2x20 LCD. If anybody is > interested I can provide more information about my projects. > > > Where I need help. > 1. > I am now stuck with decoding parameters what TCM provides. I have found > most easy / evident ones like RPMs, temperature, selector > switches etc. Most > of the response data is still unknown for me. Do anyone have documents or > more information about 4L80E ALDL commands / responses ? > > 2. > What is the right way to start communication with TCM. I have figured out > that read parameters command is F5 57 01 00 B3 but you need to > give command > twice first time. After ALDL bus have "woken up" you need only one command > to get response. If you do not issue new commands within about one second > bus goes to sleep mode again. Are there some sort of wake up > procedure or is > this (sending first command two times) right way to do it ? > > Juha Niinikoski > Espoo Finland > 97 N/A Diesel Hummer > ------------------------------ From: Padgett 0sirius Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:46:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Handheld O-Scope Have to agree, when accurate measurements are essential, go with quality and the standards are Tek and HP. I have several Teks, all bought from surplus. 900 series is nice to carry around but a 7603 onna cart won't lie. I play with tube radios but tools are all solid state. At 10:00 AM 3/5/99 -0800, you wrote: >Any scope is better than no scope, but the rule of thumb >is that the scope BW oughta be 5X the signal of interest. A. Padgett Peterson, P.E. Cybernetic Psychophysicist Anti-Virus, Cryptographics, & Antique Radio Researcher http://www.freivald.org/~padgett/index.html mailto:padgett@xxx.5 Key on request ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:39:05 -0600 Subject: Re: electronics suppliers There's a place that specializes in surplus LCD displays, www.eio.com. Also some other surplus stuff, but mostly LCD. - --steve cloud@xxx.edu wrote: > > help .. > > someone gave me the name of an online place from whom I got > LED and LCD DPMs for something line $6.00 each. They had lots > of good stuff cheeeep! Now I can't find their address (lost their > bookmark somehow). > > I know about Newark, Digikey, Mouser, Hosfelt, MCM ... > > (you can see my automotive and electronic links at > http://www.austin.cc.tx.us./ESA/tc_auto.html ) > > thanks > Tom Cloud - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "David Sagers" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 17:27:18 PST Subject: Which Intake There are some pretty smart people on this list and I need some help. I'm building a 434 ci twin turbo small block chevy, waste gates set at 12 psi, mild turbo cam, EFI, 8.5:1 compression and Brodix Track I heads, 215cc intake ports. It's going in a stock '81 Corvette, about 3,600 lbs. I was going to use some wildly ported Bowtie "101" heads and a matching intake, but the engine builder said the heads and intake were way too big for a streetable engine that needs lots of torque on the bottom end. He said the big ports and intake would kill throttle response in the lower (streetable) RPM range and that off idle would be clumsy. My question is then what kind of intake would anyone recommend. I want a car that is fun to drive on the street by making gobs of low end torque, but still be be able to run with the big blocks on the top end. I like the idea of using an existing EFI system as it saves me many $$ if I don't have to pay to have a manifold drilled, welded & converted to EFI, but building this right the first time is more important than saving money. I've looked at the GM TPI system, but since it was designed for a 305 ci, and runs out of breathing by 4500 RPM on a stock 305/350 small block, I figure it's way too small for 434ci. I've also considered something like the Lingenfelter(sp)and the Accel TPI systems. Most of these are suppose to be good for 5,800 RPM on a 350 SBC, and I wonder if they are big enough. Are the bigger volumes in the after market systems enough to feed a 434 engine in the low RPM range with the turbos pushing enough air through the TPI system to run the engine up to 6,500 RPM? Is there another system out there that I should consider? Thanks for your help. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #147 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".