DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 9 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 153 In this issue: RE: injector drivers Re: Which Intake Re: injector drivers Hey Carl S Re: New to list, have a question. RE: throttle before or after turbo RE: Injector Driver how stuff works... Re: injector drivers RE: suck or blow? RE: injector drivers RE: TDI RE: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) Re: Gale Banks RE: suck or blow? Re: Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG Re: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) Re: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) RE: TDI Re: Which Intake Re: throttle before or after turbo Re: Which Intake RE: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) Re: throttle before or after turbo Re: throttle before or after turbo Re: throttle before or after turbo Re: throttle before or after turbo Re: throttle before or after turbo Which platform to start with... Re: Which Intake Re: Which Intake Re: throttle before or after turbo See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jemison Richard Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 06:14:37 -0500 Subject: RE: injector drivers John, Great sounding setup. Do you still have the Lansinger series of articles? Any chance of getting a look? rick > Overall, thanks to information from Bruce Bowling, Al Grippo, a > series of articles in Circuit Cellar Ink by Ed Lansinger along with all > sorts miscellaneous application notes from Siemens and Philips Semi. > the system is coming along nicely. Hopefully, we'll be testing > injection on the dyno this week. > > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 07:49:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Which Intake Porsche 917-30's from way back had a mechanical linkage to butterflies on the plenums which opened to atmosphere at part throttle. The setup had throttles in each port, two turbos, each feeding a plenum. The butterflies vented pressure when the throttle was suddenly closed. The mechanical (alpha-n with boost sensing) fuel injection they used did not care if air was vented. They may also admit air as the throttles were opening (not at WOT, though) or they may have been set up to vent some pressure as the driver was approaching full throttle. Gary Derian > >The old Accel draw thru carb turbo adapter kits had this feature--they >called it a "priority valve"--twenty years ago. > >Regards, Greg > >Allowing the turbo to >>spin in a vacuum after closing the throttle means instant boost when the >>throttle is nailed. Refer to TURBOCHARGERS by Hugh Macinnes. >> TIA >> Wayne > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:36:24 -0500 Subject: Re: injector drivers Hey Carl S - -----Original Message----- From: John Dammeyer To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 07, 1999 11:37 PM Subject: Re: injector drivers I, don't know what to tell ya about boats. The load is so great all the time. Seems to me a TB with vacuum secondaries would be the only way to go. I did some carb work, many years ago and about went crazy trying to get the perfect metering.... Maybe Carl could shed more light on this. For boats might get by with MAP to RPM AE type table, best, Bruce >Hi Bruce, > >OK. I if I under stand this correctly, my algorithm should: > >a) Determine that TPS has changed. The amount of change suggests the >degree of enrichment on the PW. Start a timer, user configurable >during engine tuning or perhaps also based on delta TPS. > >b) Start checking delta MAP and when it stops changing, (within some >guideline), back off on enrichment. > >This would suggest, for example, if engine at 14.7:1 and throttle hit >hard, that an initial change of PW to give 10:1 for a time interval. >Then, reduce to 12.6:1 once MAP sensor shows a change. Then, as MAP >pressure reaches steady state back PW off until 14.7:1 is reached again. > >I'm in a situation where I have a fluid load (propeller) on the engine >so at some point I will have WOT, maximum airflow at some RPM with >hopefully a Ve approaching 1. > >Thanks, > >John > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Plecan >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >Date: Sunday, March 07, 1999 4:50 PM >Subject: Re: injector drivers > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Dammeyer >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >>Date: Sunday, March 07, 1999 4:52 PM >>Subject: Re: injector drivers >> >> >>Delta TPS, and Delta MAP, both corrected by coolant temp., are common. >>Bruce >> >>>I'm building a ignition/injection system for a Honda 1595 CC engine. >So >>>far the CD ignition works great as do all the appropriate sensors like >>>the MAP/Air Temperature etc. I'm wondering how to go about handling >the >>>Throttle Position Sensor. >>> >>>ie: While the engine is in a steady state condition the combination >of >>>MAP and Barometric Pressure sensors along with RPM determine the >initial >>>injector pulse width. The O2 sensor closes the loop. Now if the >>>throttle is opened suddenly I know I need to increase the pulse width. >>> >>>I can: >>> >>>1) just use a timer to increase the mixture to 10:1 for a >preprogrammed >>>time. This simulates the accelerator pump on a carburated engine. >>> >>>2) Increase the mixture to 10:1 until the ratio between MAP and >>>Barometer reach some set point. >>> >>>3) Do both. >>> >>>What I don't want happening is a too rich mixture once the throttle is >>>wide open and the engine is loaded at some RPM that no longer >increases. >>> >>>Would I be best to use the rate of change of the RPM as an indicator >to >>>back off on the Pulse Width? >>> >>>What do the commercial injection systems do? >>> >>>Comments? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>John >>> >> >> > ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 07:45:22 -0600 Subject: Re: New to list, have a question. At 01:43 PM 3/6/99 -0600, esc wrote: >>Eric, I also have an early ProJection .... doesn't have the EGO ..... snip >The main problem I have with the Closed loop kit has to do with how it >modifies the TPS voltage. Generally the baseline mixture is too rich so it >leans it out. If it(closed loop kit) leans the mixture very much then >when you give a little more throttle it gets very lean and does not >accelerate properly. This kit does not function above 2/3 throttle, so I >find myself often applying a lot more throttle than would otherwise be >needed just to avoid the closed-loop-kit-induced flat spot. 1 . my setup, without the EGO feedback, goes very lean at the slightest increase of the throttle from cruise. Best I can figure is the slight opening of the throttle plate adds enough extra air to make it lean but the tps voltage increase isn't adequate to be sensed as an increase in fuel ???? 2 . the 2/3 throttle thing is probably just a voltage divider somewhere, should one want to modify it 3 . are you aware that I have made a parts list for the 502 (or is a 520 ??) and a PCB drawing for it ?? Someone has a web site for the Holley ProJection (lemme look ..... yeah, check with Andy > . then, consider that a MAP input might be more logical ?? I had >>entertained the idea of either building my own ego feedback unit or >>a map feedback unit -- or could actually sum the two together ?? All >>that's needed is to sum the input from the tps with the conditioned >>voltage(s) from the other devices. To me, the map input makes more >>sense and would elevate the unit from the status of simple alpha-n >>controller to a simple speed-density unit (which their literature >>claims it is anyway!). >> > > >I agree that a MAP input is what I need. Without it the Ram-air system >will always be troublesome. >The problem is how do I do it? > >I really like the throttle body part of the ProJection, but thats the only >part I really want to keep. I'm not all that happy with the controller. I >really want something that I can have more control over and that will >accept input from more sources. > >Eric You are in the right place, IMO .... there's several who have adapted the GM ECM to the ProJection TB. "Bruce Plecan" , who is on this list, is probably your best contact, IMO. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Van Setten, Tim (AZ75)" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:40:52 -0700 Subject: RE: throttle before or after turbo On our off-road cars, we have done it both ways. I have to tell you from experience, go BLOW thru! On the suck-thru you have to have the carbon seal behind the compressor to keep engine oil out of the manifold. Good luck! I have seen the best and no matter what you do, you will have manifolds full of oil. When oil gets into the air / fuel mix, it lowers your octane immediately, and pinging will start at lower boost pressures. On blow thru turbo's, the carbon seal (which adds drag) is replaced with a steel ring. Bosch makes a vacuum operated "Pop-off" valve for about $ 30.00. Bosch PN 0 280 142 102. These work beautiful and keep the turbo spooled up. One more thing to consider: I have a friend that works for Garret designing turbo's and the statement made is that you do not want to restrict the air intake to the turbo or you will lose compressor efficiency. To be safe, figure about a 110 degree angle immediately off of the intake hole into the biggest air filter you can find. Case in point, look at any big diesel rig, they have about a 10" air hose going to the side of the turbo which has a little 1.5" opening. They do this for a reason. If you need help finding these pop off valves, let me know. Glad to help. Tim. ------------------------------ From: "Van Setten, Tim (AZ75)" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:52:58 -0700 Subject: RE: Injector Driver > Not really what I had in mind Ward, but thanks anyways! I want to use > this PCM to drive 4 Rochester TBI injectors instead of two, in delayed > channel synchronous TBI mode (picture a PCM driving a 900 CFM Holley). > But, I would much prefer to drive the injectors as two series "pairs", > directly via the PCM, as opposed to through the custom external 2-4 > channel P&H driver box that I have at the current time. > If I understand you correctly, you are going to hook up two injectors in series. Be careful here because you are not just dealing with resistance and current. Injectors also have inductance, and because of this, it controls the time it takes for them to turn on. Adding two injectors in series will more than double the time it takes to turn them on, and if they are not exactly the same, one will fire before the other. Tim. ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 10:21:50 -0600 Subject: how stuff works... Not really EFI related, but an interesting WWW page all the same: www.howstuffworks.com - --steve - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "John Dammeyer" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:37:29 -0800 Subject: Re: injector drivers Hi Rick, Circuit Cellar INK. Issue #62,63,64 September 95... For information ion authorized reprints of articles contact jciarcia@xxx. Cheers, John - -----Original Message----- From: Jemison Richard To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 4:14 AM Subject: RE: injector drivers >John, > >Great sounding setup. Do you still have the Lansinger series of articles? >Any chance of getting a look? > >rick >> Overall, thanks to information from Bruce Bowling, Al Grippo, a >> series of articles in Circuit Cellar Ink by Ed Lansinger along with all >> sorts miscellaneous application notes from Siemens and Philips Semi. >> the system is coming along nicely. Hopefully, we'll be testing >> injection on the dyno this week. >> >> > ------------------------------ From: "Rudi Machilek" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:09:13 -0500 Subject: RE: suck or blow? Lurk mode off: The old Gale Banks twin-turbo set-up had a flapper built into the back of the plenum in a blow through configuration. Since air-flow was metered (sort of) at the carburetor, waste air served to keep the turbos spooled-up. With a properly sized turbo, the flapper worked OK (although I never personally witnessed that). With an oversized turbo (more is better right) the combination was unstreetable. Worked great at WOT, idled great; didn't work at all in between. My original turbos were too small, flapper never opened, lots of turbo lag. Installed bigger turbos and basically jerked the drive-train out from under the car (No dyno testing and not enough experience). I talked to two other Banks customers at the time; they were very happy. Flapper worked as advertised. My set-up was sold for parts in the project Malibu after several years of languishing. Banks, IIRC, set a production speed record in a Firebird with this set-up. I am interested in acquiring the parts to do the project again. A little older (wiser, nah) and can afford it again. I think it would work great with a TBI. My '90 Camaro absolutely needs this addition or maybe the old Suburban looking a lot like a Hummer knock-off candidate. . Lurk on Rudi Machilek Raleigh, NC rudi@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:40:53 -0500 Subject: RE: injector drivers Thanks John > -----Original Message----- > From: John Dammeyer [SMTP:johnd@xxx.com] > Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:37 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: injector drivers > > Hi Rick, > > Circuit Cellar INK. Issue #62,63,64 September 95... > > For information ion authorized reprints of articles contact > jciarcia@xxx. > > Cheers, > > ------------------------------ From: John Andrianakis Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:29:46 +0200 Subject: RE: TDI I dont know the algorithm but I assume it is very complex. A german chip tuner- Kerscher uses a special adapter base for the chip and a double size EPROM and lets the ECU read the original file for a few ms that the checksum is checked. It then switches to the modified file. Hope this helps. Regards, John Andrianakis. On Sunday, March 07, 1999 12:46 PM, Marco Cortecchia [SMTP:m.cortecchia@xxx.it] wrote: > Do some one know the algorimt that new BOSCH TDI ECU perform ? > It's not a regular CheckSum . > > Thank > MARCO CORTECCHIA ( SoftWare developer ) > Via Bellini 70/A > 40026 - Imola ( BO ) ITALIA > > Tel/Fax : +39-(0)542-681936 > m.cortecchia@xxx.it > www.3wad.com/efi ------------------------------ From: John Andrianakis Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:35:07 +0200 Subject: RE: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) Havent followed all the messages of this thread but I think you should know that erl does not alter the water output by changing the pump supply voltage. They use a solenoid valve controlled by their MF-2 injector controller. The pump is specialy designed magnetic piston unit and I could guess that it operates at a frequency of around 10Hz. Regards, John Andrianakis. On Sunday, March 07, 1999 7:00 PM, rr [SMTP:RRauscher@xxx.com] wrote: > Now I got it! > > I think that you need to do some testing with this unit. If you > modulate the control signal at about 4Hz, you can probably do > what you want. The reason for this slow, is to still allow the > pump to give full cycles. > > The PWM controller may work for this, it will need to be slowed > down. The .1uf cap hangin off pin 2 will need to be made larger > in value. Something between 1 & 3.3uf might be enough. > > As you mention below, you can try to vary the pump volts in > order to slow the pump down. But this gets messy with all the > heat build up and pump stalling at lower voltages. > > Let us know what you find... > > BobR. > > > Daniel Houlton wrote: > > > > rr wrote: > > > > > > OK, finally got into this site (it can be reeeaaallll slow). This is > > > an interesting pump. Basically, it is a solenoid driven pump. Figure > > > a bicycle pump with a magnetic solenoid pulling back the rod, then a > > > powerful spring returning the rod to the original position to pump. > > > The pump stroke is run at about 50Hz. > > > > > > There are electronics built into the pump itself, no separate > > > controller. > > > According to the schematic, the input siganl is just an on/off as the > > > water is required. They use a pressure switch. > > > > > > Bottom line, Dan, I don't think that you need anything else to drive > > > this pump. It's all self-contained... > > > > Yeah it looks that way, but it can still be controlled to vary the > > amount of injection by controlling the pressure. The basic system > > comes with an on/of pressure switch which means you get all or none. > > > > Their upper-level kit includes their fuel injector control box which > > also has an output for this pump. It increases pump pressure and > > therefor the amount of water injected as the boost pressure goes up. > > > > That's basically what I want to do. Provide a variable voltage signal > > (looks like 0 - 12V) to increase water pressure as boost goes up. If > > I could get this signal from the 0 - 5V a MAP sensor gives, I can get > > a nice water injection curve instead of turning it on full blast at X > > psi with a pressure switch. > > > > Use the pressure switch that comes with the pump to arm the system > > and prevent injection before 3 psi say. Then map the MAP output so > > that the pump gets about 6V (half pressure) at say 3 psi and then ramps > > up rapidly to deliver 12V (full pressure) by 8 or 9 psi. > > > > Someone mentioned an op-amp could do this. Also a 555. What is a > > 555? Is that a particular op-amp? I remember it being referred to as > > a timer someone used to drive and additional injector from the signal > > to a stock one. > > > > For now I'll start studying op-amps. Thanks for the help. > > > > --Dan ------------------------------ From: CEIJR@xxx.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:01:36 EST Subject: Re: Gale Banks Rudi: The Bonneville car that Gale Banks ran was, as I recall, in the 250-260 mph range. The back seat was a tank - ice water intercooler. Fastest firebird so far, however, was Gary Eaker's, with Lingenfelter small block, twin turbo, nitrous oxide intercooled, 1200 hp, (No N2O inside). Speed 296. Several projects are still trying for a 300 mph 2-way. Charlie Iliff ------------------------------ From: "Van Setten, Tim (AZ75)" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:20:06 -0700 Subject: RE: suck or blow? > The old Gale Banks twin-turbo set-up had a flapper built into the back of > the plenum in a blow through configuration. Since air-flow was metered > (sort of) at the carburetor, waste air served to keep the turbos > spooled-up. Ahhh, but remember that a suck-thru turbo with a carb is actually a "Air Fuel Separator" because the compressor turbin will throw the fuel against the snail shell, causing a lean-out condition, thus turbo lag. In a port injected design, it's just air, no lag. No wetting of the intake runners also causing lag. Note that almost all have the air-valve on the plenum, with long runners to each cylinder, with the fuel injector at the intake valve. Tim. ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:46:22 -0800 Subject: Re: Use larger inj. & dual -pots/SMOG <> I was asking if anybody had luck getting aftermarket parts tested at a Ref station. I didn't say that was my plan, or that I thought I could get my custom turbo car certified. Far from it. None of my parts have anything close to a C.A.R.B. E.O.#! If I have all of the factory emissions equipment present, and functioning properly...and the car passes the sniff test, then I would have a snowball's chance of passing at a Ref station. <> There's nothing stealthy about an Electromotive TEC II engine management/ignition system. The damn ECU/coilpack is anodized gold and uses green electrical connectors. Not too factory looking. Maybe if painted blacked and debadged...on a dark night! One quick look down by the firewall, and they'd see a Garrett T04B staring back at 'em. "Hmm, the computer doesn't show a '93 Corrado VR6 Turbo, what year is it again?". "What's this 'Schrick' intake manifold w/ this vacuum line coming out of it?". Those are questions I don't want to have to answer. So, I resigned myself to removing the whole TEC II/turbo/wiring/3" exhaust once every two years (or having a "hook up" do my SMOG). Tree-huggers relax. My TEC II can be dialed in for way better emissions than any factory car of the same year. I could run it at 14.7 A/F all day long. But I won't! Car would be lean as hell and would melt a piston under boost. Seems that 14.25-14.36 is pretty good for all around daily driving sans turbo. Dyno tuning is key. All those worried about environmental issues in CA should know that we're about to repeal the reformulated gas soon. No more M.T.B.E. for CA! It's leaking into our ground water supply, so we'll simply choose clean water over "clean" air (Clean air? That's extremely debatable, BTW). Of couse it will take the crude oil moguls four years to cut in the old non-M.T.B.E. stuff...so they claim. Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: Daniel Houlton Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:49:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) John Andrianakis wrote: > > Havent followed all the messages of this thread but I think you should know > that erl does not alter the water output by changing the pump supply > voltage. They use a solenoid valve controlled by their MF-2 injector > controller. The pump is specialy designed magnetic piston unit and I could > guess that it operates at a frequency of around 10Hz. > Regards, > John Andrianakis. > Just to clarify, I'm not trying to modulate the supply voltage that powers the pump. I'm trying to control the voltage level to the 0 - 12V signal input (this is seperate from the 14V power input). This appears to be what the MF-2 does. Sends a variable voltage 0 - 12V depending on how much to pump and the internal circuitry of the pump does it's thing to pump that amount, most likely PWM'ing the 14V power supply itself. I'm assuming that it's linear as well. 0V => no pump, 6V => 50% d.c., 12V => 100% d.c. etc. - --Dan ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:11:54 -0500 Subject: Re: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) The earlier poster said that the Pump had a mechanical arrangement that worked like a bicylce pump. The voltage cocked the pump, and a spring returned the pump to the resting position. If this is true, only the spring constant determines the output pressure. Ken Daniel Houlton wrote: > > John Andrianakis wrote: > > > > Havent followed all the messages of this thread but I think you should know > > that erl does not alter the water output by changing the pump supply > > voltage. They use a solenoid valve controlled by their MF-2 injector > > controller. The pump is specialy designed magnetic piston unit and I could > > guess that it operates at a frequency of around 10Hz. > > Regards, > > John Andrianakis. > > > > Just to clarify, I'm not trying to modulate the supply voltage that powers > the pump. I'm trying to control the voltage level to the 0 - 12V signal > input (this is seperate from the 14V power input). This appears to be what > the MF-2 does. Sends a variable voltage 0 - 12V depending on how much to > pump and the internal circuitry of the pump does it's thing to pump that > amount, most likely PWM'ing the 14V power supply itself. > > I'm assuming that it's linear as well. 0V => no pump, 6V => 50% d.c., > 12V => 100% d.c. etc. > > --Dan ------------------------------ From: m.cortecchia@xxx.it (Marco Cortecchia) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:15:07 +0100 Subject: RE: TDI At 08:29 PM 3/7/99 +0200, you wrote: >I dont know the algorithm but I assume it is very complex. A german chip >tuner- Kerscher uses a special adapter base for the chip and a double size >EPROM and lets the ECU read the original file for a few ms that the >checksum is checked. It then switches to the modified file. >Hope this helps. >Regards, >John Andrianakis. > Hi , thank You for Your reply . We already use this board , but it can work only with some ECU , some new ECU , after the first check ( as soon as the key is turn on ) , made some more checking during engine work , so this board can't work . We would like develope a Crack system to recalculate the Checked values after tuning , it's the only correct way to work with this new ECU . If We can't find more informations We will disasemble the code inside the chip , and We will try understand the algoritm . In this way We can add a PlugIn to our SoftWare system ( You can see it at www.3wad.com/efi/ ) . Thank You again MARCO CORTECCHIA ( SoftWare developer ) Via Bellini 70/A 40026 - Imola ( BO ) ITALIA Tel/Fax : +39-(0)542-681936 m.cortecchia@xxx.it www.3wad.com/efi ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:48:32 +0000 Subject: Re: Which Intake > Don't you want less throttle response when you let up? (sorry, Fred.. > couldn't help it on that one) Vacuum is good. That's okay, its a reminder to either slow down the brain or speed up the carpul tunnel'd fingers. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Ferman C. Lao" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 02:25:15 +0800 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo Would a set up like this work on an NA efi engine? Throttle body NA MAP sensor turbo intercooler intake runners port fuel injection aftermarket rising rate fuel pressure regulator Stock ECU I've been toying with the idea for quite some time , but havent had the opportunity to try it out yet. It seems to me that by putting the NA MAP sensor between the turbo & TB will enable it to always read vacuum only & there would be no need to change the MAP sensor or ECU to one that is capable or accomodating boost readings. My question is aside from the oil being sucked out thru the oil seals, are there any other problems ? And will the vacuum produced in a such a way be out of range of the NA MAP sensor? How about the rising rate fuel regulator? Will it operate without any problems in a setup like this? ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:06:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Which Intake > > > Don't you want less throttle response when you let up? (sorry, Fred.. > > couldn't help it on that one) Vacuum is good. > > That's okay, its a reminder to either slow down the brain or > speed up the carpul tunnel'd fingers. Fred was right throttle respone is the ability of the engine to react to driver input to the throttle this can be either opening or closing Clive ------------------------------ From: John Andrianakis Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 02:13:24 +0200 Subject: RE: AquaMist pump (was: Re: Voltage controller) Looking at the MF-2 installation manual I can see that the pump has a 3 pin connector. Pin 1:+12v, pin2: control pin, pin 3:ground. From the diagram and the test description I think that the control pin is used to limit the maximum pump pressure. It is connected to ground through a pressure switch.When the control pin of the pump is grounded the pump doesnt work. This switch is located on the "water valve manifold assembly" which "serves as an electro-mechanical valve for control of water flow". The PWM signal of the MF-2 goes to the solenoid valve on the water manifold assembly. I hope I am not missing something out. Regards, John Andrianakis. On Monday, March 08, 1999 9:50 PM, Daniel Houlton [SMTP:houlster@xxx.com] wrote: > John Andrianakis wrote: > > > > Havent followed all the messages of this thread but I think you should know > > that erl does not alter the water output by changing the pump supply > > voltage. They use a solenoid valve controlled by their MF-2 injector > > controller. The pump is specialy designed magnetic piston unit and I could > > guess that it operates at a frequency of around 10Hz. > > Regards, > > John Andrianakis. > > > > Just to clarify, I'm not trying to modulate the supply voltage that powers > the pump. I'm trying to control the voltage level to the 0 - 12V signal > input (this is seperate from the 14V power input). This appears to be what > the MF-2 does. Sends a variable voltage 0 - 12V depending on how much to > pump and the internal circuitry of the pump does it's thing to pump that > amount, most likely PWM'ing the 14V power supply itself. > > I'm assuming that it's linear as well. 0V => no pump, 6V => 50% d.c., > 12V => 100% d.c. etc. > > > --Dan ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:54:56 -0600 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo Chris Conlon wrote: but I'd like to hear from people who have set any old turbo up with the TB before it, if you had much problem with sucking oil into the intake. I had an old Accel T04B sucker. No problems with oil (or bearings) at all. Just don't race the motor (turbo) until oil temp starts to come up and do the same on shutdown, don't turn it off when it's really hot, like just after a run, let it cool a bit and settle down. The seals tend to wear out when the bearings get loose/sloppy or the cartridge gets coked up from Penzoil. just my .02. Tom S ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:58:04 -0700 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo >Would a set up like this work on an NA efi engine? > Throttle body > NA MAP sensor > turbo > intercooler > intake runners >port fuel injection > aftermarket rising rate fuel pressure regulator >Stock ECU Nope--you would need a turbo speed sensor along with this setup for the ecu to have even a clue ofhow much air the engine was getting. Plus, even with the rising rate regulator, prolly not near enough fuel flow. Greg ------------------------------ From: "xwiredtva@xxx.com> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:14:13 -0500 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo My question is aside from the oil >being sucked out thru the oil seals, are there any other problems ? Run an oil cooler before the oil inlet into the turbo. This will cool the oil down and help it from being sucked through the seals or blown through the exhaust side (cooler oil is thicker). Also makes the turbo run cooler and last longer. See Saab's 4cyl turbo setup on how to make a good turbo setup. 240,000 miles on a hard beaten 9000 and no turbo failure to date, never ideled after running either. ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:22:47 -0600 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo Ferman C. Lao wrote: > Would a set up like this work on an NA efi engine? > Throttle body > NA MAP sensor > turbo > intercooler > intake runners > port fuel injection > aftermarket rising rate fuel pressure regulator > Stock ECU > I've been toying with the idea for quite some time , but havent had the > opportunity to try it out yet. It seems to me that by putting the NA MAP > sensor between the turbo & TB will enable it to always read vacuum only & > there would be no need to change the MAP sensor or ECU to one that is > capable or accomodating boost readings. My question is aside from the oil > being sucked out thru the oil seals, are there any other problems ? > And will the vacuum produced in a such a way be out of range of the NA MAP > sensor? How about the rising rate fuel regulator? Will it operate without > any problems in a setup like this? If the throttle body is small (at all), the turbo will create vacuum on the inlet (map) side and boost at the engine. I used a 650 Holley on a T04B on a 350 chevy to limit boost. Also, it is very hard to get enuf fuel to the engine w/ RR pressure. Suggest secondary injectors with an on/off switch. Most of the time (unless you have a heavily loaded vehicle in the mountains), boost = full throttle. Tom S ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:51:42 -0500 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo This won't work. A MAP sensor works as an EFI input because that is what the engine sees. If you put a turbo in between, the MAP no longer tells the EFI what the engine sees. Maybe a MAP and throttle angle combo would indicate air flow but why reinvent the wheel, use a 2 bar MAP. Gary Derian >Would a set up like this work on an NA efi engine? > Throttle body > NA MAP sensor > turbo > intercooler > intake runners >port fuel injection > aftermarket rising rate fuel pressure regulator >Stock ECU > I've been toying with the idea for quite some time , but havent had the >opportunity to try it out yet. It seems to me that by putting the NA MAP >sensor between the turbo & TB will enable it to always read vacuum only & >there would be no need to change the MAP sensor or ECU to one that is >capable or accomodating boost readings. My question is aside from the oil >being sucked out thru the oil seals, are there any other problems ? >And will the vacuum produced in a such a way be out of range of the NA MAP >sensor? How about the rising rate fuel regulator? Will it operate without >any problems in a setup like this? ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:17:45 -0500 Subject: Which platform to start with... Hello all, Never thought I was going to do this, but here I go... Bought the Girlfriend a 1982 Nissan Sentra with an Auto trans... Has a junk smog carburetor and is only 65 HP from 1500cc. The carb is shot and the dealer wants $500.00 for it. I know I can pick up FI parts from a junk yard cheaper, so that's what I want to do... Guess if I go PFI, I can keep the carb (with fuel lines disconnected) as a throttle body and it will look stock to the smog inspectors! What PCM would be the best to use, and are there any Generic GM factory chips that would make a good starting point for this? Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 03:35:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Which Intake > Fred was right > throttle respone is the ability of the engine > to react to driver input to the throttle Since this is such a rare occurance, *SMILE* - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: DC Smith Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:24:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Which Intake Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > > Don't you want less throttle response when you let up? (sorry, Fred.. > > > couldn't help it on that one) Vacuum is good. > > > > That's okay, its a reminder to either slow down the brain or > > speed up the carpul tunnel'd fingers. > > Fred was right > throttle respone is the ability of the engine > to react to driver input to the throttle > > this can be either opening or closing. This is true, you can have a closing throttle response. It can be fast, but mainly due to lower rotating mass in the engine. The fuel is cut by the computer, no matter how you plumb the turbo. (Decel Enleanment) I also look for a little engine braking, and too fast of a response can break the rear tires loose. The 84/5 non-intercooled Buicks have a dual diaphragm wastegate actuator, that has the other side hooked to the TB vac port. When the throttle is let up, the wastegate opens instantly, thus dumping boost now. As far as oil consumption.. The 84/5 setup didn't dump any more oil into the intake than this 86/7 GN setup does. Assuming you have a good turbo to start with. I can tell you this.. that non-intercooled setup was the knockinist (new word!) SOB on the planet, on a warm day, under moderate boost conditions and on pump premium. I like this intercooled setup MUCH better. Even with the horrendous compressor noise on quick decel. Gateway International Raceway in St. Louis opens March 20th. Be there! (1/4 mile) I plan on running high 11's at least. :) *********************************************************************** Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.13@112 GSCA# 1459 St.Charles, Missouri mailto:dcsmith@xxx.net http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "John Dammeyer" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:45:43 -0800 Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo Hi, I should be so lucky and you are tempting fate. Actually the 900 series Turbo (1986) didn't have water cooling on the Turbo Bearing so a quick non-idle shutdown tended to carbonize the oil creating those nasty granules that are extremely abrasive. What did in our Turbine was the PCV valve and a turbine that was already noisy. It failed open during mountain passage. High levels of boost caused positive pressure on the crankcase forcing oil out the filler cap and assorted other seals. Normally the PCV valve prevents this by allowing low manifold pressure to suck out the blowby and other crankcase vapours but the valve, is supposed to close when there is boost. There wasn't a turbine bearing left after that. Lots of blue smoke, limping home the rest of the 250Km. New turbine and head gasket. Runs like a top but now we do make sure we idle down too. And, the PCV valve ($45Cdn) is new and will be replaced in 100,000Km (that's the 325,000Km mark.). That's my SAAB story. (Slow And Always Broken.) John - -----Original Message----- From: xwiredtva@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 6:19 PM Subject: Re: throttle before or after turbo > My question is aside from the oil >>being sucked out thru the oil seals, are there any other problems ? > >Run an oil cooler before the oil inlet into the turbo. This will cool the >oil down and help it from being sucked through the seals or blown through >the exhaust side (cooler oil is thicker). Also makes the turbo run cooler >and last longer. See Saab's 4cyl turbo setup on how to make a good turbo >setup. 240,000 miles on a hard beaten 9000 and no turbo failure to date, >never ideled after running either. > > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #153 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".