DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 12 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 159 In this issue: Re: Off Panhard bar RE: Off Panhard bar Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Cleanup time Re: [Fwd: [J] MUST READ! GREATEST FLAME ON EARTH!] Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Off Panhard bar Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Off Panhard bar Re: VSS and Transmission Output speed Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Cleanup time Re: New... Where's the FAQ? Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Off Panhard bar Real HP loss numbers Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Cleanup time Re: Off Panhard bar Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:46:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar >Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and >the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to >push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to >prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two >panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. This is called a Watt's linkage. Somewhat common in the street roadster world. til they mostly went to Jag rears. Greg But I don't see >anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not >be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? > >Shannen ------------------------------ From: "Pete Datcuk" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:03:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Off Panhard bar This is true, but the side to side movement is very small. The longer the panhard bar, the smaller the movement. On a 60" bar with 8" on suspension travel (4" in either direction), you are talking around an 1/8" of lateral movement. Pete > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Shannen > Durphey > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 5:55 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Off Panhard bar > > > Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and > the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to > push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Bartlett Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:12:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Greg Hermann wrote: > >The only way to > >prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two > >panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. > > This is called a Watt's linkage. Somewhat common in the street roadster > world. til they mostly went to Jag rears. > > > But I don't see > >anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not > >be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? It's also currently in use in the new Land Rover Discovery II rear axle. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Tregacorp@xxx.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:25:09 EST Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Sounds like you are describing a W-link commonly used on dirt cars (I was on a crew of a friends Small Block Modified dirt car). Keeps the axle inline and does not move it over as it travels up and down. Kevin Schappell http://www.pacarsearch.com ------------------------------ From: Chad Clendening Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:04:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Cleanup time That was a bitmap conversion I did from a TANGO file. It is an ALDL to RS-232 convertor someone on this list posted for the GCAR program. Chad Shannen Durphey wrote: > I've found a mystery file. aldl2pc.bmp is a schematic of an aldl > interface cable to serial port, IIRC. Anyone know if it's related to > any specific programs? Tx. > Shannen ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:21:47 -0600 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [J] MUST READ! GREATEST FLAME ON EARTH!] Sandy wrote: > I'll still go with the realism from the late Garfield, he was much better > at it on regular basis. Sad, I kind'a miss it. I'll second that. You haven't been trashed until you've been Gar'd. Tom S ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:33:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Several options. Triangulated 4 link (my preference), Jacobs ladder (Z linkage with pivot in middle), the new Mustang Cobra ot Vette IRS, and a DeDion linkage. The old standard parallel leaf rears will also work well under certain advese conditions. I've seen them win/work when nothing else was hooking up. You need a book - several available - and you need to decide what your objectives are. I've been Offroad, drags, sand drags, Hill climbs, a little dirt track roundy round and now a little sports car cornering and they are all different. Tom S Shannen Durphey wrote: > Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and > the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to > push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to > prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two > panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. But I don't see > anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not > be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? > > Shannen ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:39:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Shannen Durphey wrote: > I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, I forgot to say that Panhards can be mounted above the axle, on center, and below the axle. They can also be short and long. They all react differently. If you are always turning left, which do you need ? Then you add your pull rod or lift bar depending upon your spring/tire combination. I designed the first offset pull rod that I ever saw here in Illinois until it got outlawed. Tom S ------------------------------ From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:42:45 EST Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Mark I cant explain how the claim of 5 hp gain can be accomplished, can you? The alternator doesnt ever consume 5 hp, I dont think. That would be around 300 amps into a 12 'load'. Or , if the alternator, with its bearing and belt and electrical losses, was only 50 percent efficient, it would have to be putting 150 amps into a 12volt 'load'. Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the power consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. At least the power consumed by an alternator should be quite low when the battery doesnt need to be charged, and there are no heater motors and -or air conditioning clutches and fans running. This is the message that I read --------- Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at WOT. - -Mark Return-Path: owner-merkur-owners@xxx.COM Here's a gizmo that sounds useful. It automatically switches off alternator load if you're at full throttle and you've got plenty of charge in your battery, allowing the engine to devote ALL its power to moving forward. Jerry ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:35:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar At 05:54 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and >the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to >push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to >prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two >panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. But I don't see >anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not >be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? > >Shannen > As others have said, it's called a Watt's linkage and the latest full size, rear wheel drive Ford's have three of 'em. One on each side fore and aft and the third side to side. One other fact about a panhard is the roll center changes up turning one way and down the other. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban ------------------------------ From: esc Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:35:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar I have a Herb Adams Panhard rod on my '82 Camaro. It is a threaded steel tube with 3/4" rod ends on each end. Because of the length, if it is horizontal when the car is at rest, there is very little horizontal travel. You can do the math if you want, it's about 4 feet long and travels 2-3" above and below horizontal. It really doesn't amlount to much. At 05:54 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and >the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to >push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to >prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two >panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. But I don't see >anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not >be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? > >Shannen > Eric esc@xxx.com If it breaks, make it stronger. If it doesn't, try harder. '68 Big Block Bird '69 Spitfire '82(sort of) Camaro ------------------------------ From: esc Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:41:41 -0600 Subject: Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch I rigged a manual switch on my old 900 Ninja to do the same thing. I would cut the power to the primary coil of the alternator when I wanted a little something extra. I have been considering doing something similar with my Camaro. Hooking the alternator up to my NOS(full throttle) switch. Has anyone tried this before? It worked on the Ninja, so I'll probably try it on the Camaro. At 04:13 PM 3/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at WOT. >-Mark > > > >Return-Path: owner-merkur-owners@xxx.COM > >Here's a gizmo that sounds useful. It automatically switches off alternator >load if you're at full throttle and you've got plenty of charge in your battery, >allowing the engine to devote ALL its power to moving forward. > >Does anyone have something similar installed in their Scorpio or XR4? What's >their verdict? Do they think it's worth the money ( >£117 or $187)? > >Check it out : >http://alterpower.co.uk/press.htm > Eric esc@xxx.com If it breaks, make it stronger. If it doesn't, try harder. '68 Big Block Bird '69 Spitfire '82(sort of) Camaro ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:39:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > You need a book - several available - and you need to decide what your > objectives are. Hee hee. Objective is to keep from starting another project. But this defunct 82 Cavalier is just sitting here, and I've got a bunch of SB Chevy parts around... Just gotta keep busy doing other things. But a few minutes into the assy language books and the mind kinda starts to wander. > I've been Offroad, drags, sand drags, Hill climbs, a > little dirt track roundy round and now a little sports car cornering and > they are all different. Tom S > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and > > the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to > > push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to > > prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two > > panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. But I don't see > > anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not > > be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? > > > > Shannen ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:01:31 -0500 Subject: Re: VSS and Transmission Output speed Hi, Dr. Plecan. 4L80E trans has 2 speed sensors installed, Transmission Input Shaft Speed and Transmission Output Shaft Speed. Early 4wd (pre94) had separate VSS and dedicated signal to PCM, 2wd and 94+4wd didn't have extra sensor so combined the signals. TOSS is used for gear ratio calculations, VSS is used for shift control. TISS is used for TCC control, shift pattern, shift quality. I remember a few codes for these, trans component slipping, tcc apply error, undefined gear ratio, excessive shift times. Nothing I have gives # of pulses/rev, but I think the frequency is different between the two shafts, due to different "wheel" diameters. Definitely A/C from the sensor, as they are the same part no. TISS must be conditioned inside the PCM, TOSS may depend on the year of the calibration. Kinda makes the electronic simulations a job for the entire CSH staff... Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > On a 8625 pcm, there are two connections, one labeled VSS, which is vehicle > speed sensor, and a second one labeled transmission output speed, they > both feed from the Vehicle Speed Signal Bufffer to the PCM. Can anyone > splain this to me?. Is this just a way of checking for transmission > "slippage". > Anyone happen to know what this 5v signal should be?. ie square, 4,000ppm?. > Thanks > Bruce ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:10:13 -0600 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch KD6JDJ@xxx.com wrote: > Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the power > consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. At least the power > consumed by an alternator should be quite low when the battery doesnt need to > be charged, and there are no heater motors and -or air conditioning clutches > and fans running. And it keeps the VOLTAGE up and the spark and pump at peak......Tom ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:17:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Cleanup time > I have found one shareware program. It's one you asked about once, > but the cable he shows is different. > http://www.merlan.ca/seanster/scantool/ > It looks like your cable on his site. Is this the same stuff? Yes, just verified the interface design on Sean's website was my un-handywork. he originally just connected the PC to the ECM with a simple resistor, and after we talked about it for a while, I slaped that schematic together and tested it with the software he had sent. In my earlier post, I somehow confused your soul with his. My apologies. Maybe you pointed me to him, which is why I mixed it all up. Was a while ago :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Fran and Bud" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:36:25 +0000 Subject: Re: New... Where's the FAQ? One site that I found to be exceptional was the "Retrofitting Crossfire Injection" at www.acesag.auburn.edu/~gparmer/efi/. The main page has lots of links that will get you to more detailed info - one lists a lot of items that "should be on a FAQ page". Check it out. Bud - ---------- >From: Glen Beard >To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu >Subject: New... Where's the FAQ? >Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999, 3:26 PM > >Hi. I'm new to this list (been on the f-body lists for about 2 years >now) and I'm looking for some good EFI info. Is there a FAQ somewhere >that I haven't found yet? How do I tell what model # of computer I >have? (starting simple...) > >-- >Glen Beard >95 T/A conv M6 Vortech !heads, !cam >http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html > > ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:36:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at WOT. Something to consider on the flip side - your alternator puts out 13.x volts... where as a fresh battery puts out 12V. As you use the battery more and more without charging it, the voltage simply goes down. Until about 9V when the car stalls and you go camping at that exact spot :) If my math is correct for the typical 85A GM alternators, it would be about 2.1HP, not five. But I could be wrong with the math. Just throwing it out there :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:52:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar > anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not > be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? This be a Watt's Linkage, and is an excellent solution to resolving the left and right movement of the axle. however, if your suspension travel is very small, then its less of an issue. Also, putting the frame-mount for the pan rod on the outside of the turn (for circletrack cars which only turn one way) makes a noticable difference at high speeds. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:02:23 EST Subject: Real HP loss numbers Was wondering (induced by all the talk with computers recording spark signals and computing HP) what are the actually losses in drivetrain. I've heard the torque converter is 97% efficient at part throttle and 2 hp at U-joints (I don't believe, that's 1500 Watts at each joint). Looking at tranny (auto and standard) u-joints, ring and pinion, bearings, spider gears, axles.... Sorry, it's off the beaten path, oh well :) Mike ------------------------------ From: Glen Beard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:27:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch KD6JDJ@xxx.com wrote: > Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the power > consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. Doesn't the alternator keep the system voltage a little higher than 12.0vdc? This may just be my gauge inaccuracy, but my dash voltmeter reads around 13.5vdc when I'm not at idle. What I'm thinking is if you disconnect the alt at WOT to remove that extra little load, won't you effectively lower your spark voltage? N1/V1=N2/V2 N1=# of windings on your primary coil V1=voltage on pri coil N2=# of windings on secondary coil V2=voltage on sec coil Lets say for example I am putting 50kV across my spark plug right now at 13.5vdc. That gives me about a 1:3700 step up transformer. If I lower the pri voltage to 12.0vdc (battery alone) this would give me 44.4kV across the plug. I don't know how to estimate the current through an arc, so I won't go into the change in current, but if you assume a constant resistance you can see that by lowering your spark voltage, you will lower the current. That in turn lowers that temp of the spark which will lower the completeness of the burn in the cylinder. I might be nit picking a very small difference, but I do know that allot of aftermarket companies make high energy coils and capacitive discharge ignition systems all to raise the spark voltage. Ever wonder why they make those 8.5mm low impedance park plug wires?? - -- Glen Beard 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech !heads, !cam http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:35:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > > > Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at WOT. > > Something to consider on the flip side - your alternator > puts out 13.x volts... where as a fresh battery puts out > 12V. As you use the battery more and more without charging > it, the voltage simply goes down. Until about 9V when the > car stalls and you go camping at that exact spot :) > > If my math is correct for the typical 85A GM alternators, it > would be about 2.1HP, not five. But I could be wrong with > the math. Just throwing it out there :) alternators usually use a 1/2 wave rectifier so double that and add losses 5 HP is reasonable you should see what a diff an electric sater pump makes some stock pumps use more than 30 HP at redline on a revver Clive ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:26:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Cleanup time 'sokay. The answer to my question was in the unread mail that I'm slowly catching up on. If I'd read that today instead of going through old stuff, I'd have had the answer before the question. Definitely not a day to forget to look both ways. Shannen Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Maybe you pointed me to him, which is why I mixed it all > up. Was a while ago :) > > -- > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com > 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental > 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) > 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:37:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Sandy wrote: > >I think the OLD chevy power book has some information of the various rear > suspension types. I've got a couple version of this. Probably the one with the Monza on the rear cover? I should read about more than the engines when I get these books. Thanks everyone for the info. Looks like the "to read" list got longer. Shannen > I think the mounting of the bar and the bar length makes > it all work correctly, just not sure if that still applies to 4 links. Also > I think described is the Watts linkage (I think) which you have the center > of the pumpkin with a strange piviot device that can also act as a locating > device (like a bell crank) with 2 links that center around that. Most good > suspension book should have all the geometry and various suspension types. > Can get as complex as you want, with lots of ugly math. Try finding the > Herb Adams book, I think it is called Chassis Engineering. It was written > for the racer not the physics expert. > > Sandy > > At 05:54 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and > >the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to > >push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to > >prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two > >panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. But I don't see > >anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not > >be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? > > > >Shannen ------------------------------ From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:19:43 EST Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch I thought that this discussion started out as one that considers how much power could be unloaded from an engine if the alternator was to be disabled. I wanted to point out that -- when a battery is charged up , the voltage regulator cuts off the current to the stator and the rotor spins with little resistance. So, little power is consumed by an alternator its regulator senses 14.2 volts. And when the battery cells get up to 12VDC the alternator needs to supply very little energy to the battery. The rest of the car may have need for power from the alternator. If we consider that the alternator is 75% efficient , it will consume 746 watts (1 hp) when it delivers 560 watts. That is about 40 amps at14 volts. I thought that it would be clear that the 5 hp claim is based on something that most cars ( with operating voltage regulators ) dont encounter. Maybe the satisfied users of the alternator disconnector are professional racers , where every little bit counts. While I'm at it --- 99% of todays automotive alternators are 3 phase AC , with 6 diodes in a full wave bridge. It is impressive how little ripple results . Jerry ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:22:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > Doesn't the alternator keep the system voltage a little higher than 12.0vdc? This > may just be my gauge inaccuracy, but my dash voltmeter reads around 13.5vdc when > I'm not at idle. What I'm thinking is if you disconnect the alt at WOT to remove > that extra little load, won't you effectively lower your spark voltage? Maybe. > I might be nit picking a very small difference, but I do know that allot of > aftermarket companies make high energy coils and capacitive discharge ignition > systems all to raise the spark voltage. Ever wonder why they make those 8.5mm low > impedance park plug wires?? Well, what really matters is the current in the coil when it is interrupted. What happens is as follows: Coil is connected to ground. Current in the coil rises according to V = L * di/dt. Initially, V is the battery voltage, so with a lower battery voltage, di/dt is lower and the current in the coil rises more slowly. When the ECU wishes to 'fire', it disconnects the coil from ground. The spark voltage depends on the current in the coil at this point. The ECU controls the length of time the coil is energised. This time usually depends on the battery voltage and RPM. Depending on the tables in the ECU, a lower battery voltage may or may not result in a lower current thru the coil when it is interrupted in order to make the spark. Anyway, if there will be a problem with a lower battery voltage, it will be at higher RPMs where there is less time for the current in the coil to build up to the desired level. Orin. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #159 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".