DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 12 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 160 In this issue: Re: Real HP loss numbers Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Off Panhard bar RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch RE: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: VSS and Transmission Output speed single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Harnesses are a waste RE: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine RE: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Harnesses are a waste RE: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Real HP loss numbers RE: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw eprom emulator See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glen Beard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:54:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers A70Duster@xxx.com wrote: > Was wondering (induced by all the talk with computers recording spark signals > and computing HP) what are the actually losses in drivetrain. I've heard the > torque converter is 97% efficient at part throttle and 2 hp at U-joints (I > don't believe, that's 1500 Watts at each joint). Looking at tranny (auto and > standard) u-joints, ring and pinion, bearings, spider gears, axles.... > Mike I don't think there is any way to give you some hard data as all cars are different. On the f-body list we generally accept 20% for autos and 15% for manuals. Of course this is through a rear wheel drive car and these are just ballpark figures. - -- Glen Beard 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech !heads, !cam http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html ------------------------------ From: Matt S Bower Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:10:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Glen Beard wrote: > > KD6JDJ@xxx.com wrote: > > > Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the power > > consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. > > Doesn't the alternator keep the system voltage a little higher than 12.0vdc? This > may just be my gauge inaccuracy, but my dash voltmeter reads around 13.5vdc when > I'm not at idle. What I'm thinking is if you disconnect the alt at WOT to remove > that extra little load, won't you effectively lower your spark voltage? > > N1/V1=N2/V2 > N1=# of windings on your primary coil > V1=voltage on pri coil > N2=# of windings on secondary coil > V2=voltage on sec coil > > Lets say for example I am putting 50kV across my spark plug right now at 13.5vdc. > That gives me about a 1:3700 step up transformer. > > If I lower the pri voltage to 12.0vdc (battery alone) this would give me 44.4kV > across the plug. > > I don't know how to estimate the current through an arc, so I won't go into the > change in current, but if you assume a constant resistance you can see that by > lowering your spark voltage, you will lower the current. That in turn lowers that > temp of the spark which will lower the completeness of the burn in the cylinder. > > I might be nit picking a very small difference, but I do know that allot of > aftermarket companies make high energy coils and capacitive discharge ignition > systems all to raise the spark voltage. Ever wonder why they make those 8.5mm low > impedance park plug wires?? > > -- > Glen Beard > 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech !heads, !cam > http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html Your theory is good but the actual voltage is dtermined by the plug gap and cylinder pressure. By reducing the voltage you effectivly reduce the output potential of the coil but rarely will anyone see voltages that high if they have their ign. system in decent shape (ie correct gap and good wires and cap and rotor.) The high energy coils can usually deliver more current but they usually will do this in a shorter amount of time which can just amount to not allowing the time to get the fuel burning, defeating the purpose. My .02 Matt Bower ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:40:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch At 01:27 AM 3/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >KD6JDJ@xxx.com wrote: > >> Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the >power >> consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. > >Doesn't the alternator keep the system voltage a little higher than 12.0vdc? Yep... Varies by temp... when cold, full charge voltage from an alternator is about 14.2VDC... when hot, 13.6VDC > This >may just be my gauge inaccuracy, but my dash voltmeter reads around 13.5vdc >when >I'm not at idle. What I'm thinking is if you disconnect the alt at WOT to >remove >that extra little load, won't you effectively lower your spark voltage? Yep, and cause the PCM to calculate a longer PW for the Fuel Injectors... Could saturate them and cause them to run static... less volume from the pump with less voltage as well... could be bad for the engine. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:22:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch The charging system outputs anywhere up to 14.6 volts into a fully charged battery depending on vehicle and conditions. Under optimum conditions the at is putting out about 15 amps - to run itself, ignition, and fuel pump. Say 20 to be generous. 20X14.6/.8 (80 % efficiency)=365 watts. That's getting pretty close to 1/2 HP. I think the original poster slipped a decimal point! As for power loss due to reduced voltage, that, my friend is a red herring. If your battery cannot maintain 12 volts for at least 10 minutes with a 10-15 amp draw (remember, no alt field) you better get a new battery. Dragsters run with no alt at all - just the battery, even with big MSD boxes - and they use piddly little batteries. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:23:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch OOPS - hit the send too quickly - what I am saying is the effect, either way, would be so negligible as to be totally insignificant - and if it cost $.50 it would likely be a waste. ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:27:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Let me jump in here. Most of the performance rags 20 years ago during the dyno tune age when the mags spent much time reporting on dyno time being used by big teams like Mickey Thomson, Smokey Yunick, Ed Pink, Keith Black, etc - it was quite common on motors being setup for endurance type racing and therefore equipped with alternators to report a 5+ hp loss. Some of this was recooped by installing bigger pulleys on the alternators. Some did use clutches (like your air conditioner) which would dump the alternator during peak rpm periods. Seems like Hot Rod put out a Chevy manual sometime past which had an article on alternators and included some discussion of this situation. rick > -----Original Message----- > From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:43 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > > Mark > I cant explain how the claim of 5 hp gain can be accomplished, can you? > The alternator doesnt ever consume 5 hp, I dont think. That would be > around > 300 amps into a 12 'load'. Or , if the alternator, with its bearing and > belt > and electrical losses, was only 50 percent efficient, it would have to be > putting 150 amps into a 12volt 'load'. > Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the > power > consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. At least the power > consumed by an alternator should be quite low when the battery doesnt need > to > be charged, and there are no heater motors and -or air conditioning > clutches > and fans running. > > This is the message that I read --------- > > Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at > WOT. > -Mark > > > > Return-Path: owner-merkur-owners@xxx.COM > > Here's a gizmo that sounds useful. It automatically switches off > alternator > load if you're at full throttle and you've got plenty of charge in your > battery, > allowing the engine to devote ALL its power to moving forward. > > > Jerry ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:38:47 -0500 Subject: RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch I agree the alternator output is very low when the battery is charged but the stator coils are still charged (and therefore exerting a magnetic field) and there is still a mechanical loss associated with spinning the alternator. I don't know that you can prove or disprove this theory on the electrical basis of the alternators parameters alone completely discounting the mechanical losses. All I can tell you is that this has been a pretty well established and observed loss on dynomometers with engines running at speeds above 5000 rpm. Alternator on the engine (X -5 hp). Stop - pull the alternator - rerun the test ( X output!). Seems pretty simple. For myself - I don't really care WHY the alternators sucking the power. If I get down to where 5 hp makes the difference - the alternator's gone! rick > -----Original Message----- > From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:20 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > > I thought that this discussion started out as one that considers how > much > power could be unloaded from an engine if the alternator was to be > disabled. > I wanted to point out that -- when a battery is charged up , the voltage > regulator cuts off the current to the stator and the rotor spins with > little > resistance. So, little power is consumed by an alternator its regulator > senses > 14.2 volts. And when the battery cells get up to 12VDC the alternator > needs to > supply very little energy to the battery. > The rest of the car may have need for power from the alternator. > If we consider that the alternator is 75% efficient , it will consume > 746 > watts (1 hp) when it delivers 560 watts. That is about 40 amps at14 volts. > > I thought that it would be clear that the 5 hp claim is based on > something > that most cars ( with operating voltage regulators ) dont encounter. > Maybe the satisfied users of the alternator disconnector are > professional > racers , where every little bit counts. > > While I'm at it --- 99% of todays automotive alternators are 3 phase AC > , > with 6 diodes in a full wave bridge. It is impressive how little ripple > results . > > > Jerry > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:51:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Disconnecting the alternator PHYSICALLY, or gearing it down, will make as much difference, if not more, than shutting off the field as windage and friction losses are high. Under load at high RPM a change of pulleys can EASILY give you 3-5 HP average.(while still maintaining adequate output) Shutting off the field with a fully charged battery at wot? For short term acceleration? I don't think so. ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:16:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > 5 HP is reasonable Okay :) > you should see what a diff an electric sater pump makes > some stock pumps use more than 30 HP at redline on a revver I've heard this, however never had the courage to venture into this method. I've always been afraid that the alternator would go, and the pump would slow down and not cool properly. Probably a silly fear, since the EFI systems I slap on everything run off the alternator too. No voltage, no anything, not just water. Maybe I'll go with one for my 383 stroker and check it out. The water pump needs replacing anyway. ------------------------------ From: "Guenther,Max" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:10:21 -0500 Subject: RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Weren't most of thos cars magneto driven though, hence no loss of ignition power? >---------- >From: Jemison Richard[SMTP:JemisonR@xxx.com] >Reply To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:27 AM >To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' >Subject: RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > >Let me jump in here. Most of the performance rags 20 years ago during the >dyno tune age when the mags spent much time reporting on dyno time being >used by big teams like Mickey Thomson, Smokey Yunick, Ed Pink, Keith Black, >etc - it was quite common on motors being setup for endurance type racing >and therefore equipped with alternators to report a 5+ hp loss. Some of >this was recooped by installing bigger pulleys on the alternators. Some >did use clutches (like your air conditioner) which would dump the >alternator during peak rpm periods. Seems like Hot Rod put out a Chevy >manual sometime past which had an article on alternators and included some >discussion of this situation. > >rick > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:43 PM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch >> >> Mark >> I cant explain how the claim of 5 hp gain can be accomplished, can you? >> The alternator doesnt ever consume 5 hp, I dont think. That would be >> around >> 300 amps into a 12 'load'. Or , if the alternator, with its bearing and >> belt >> and electrical losses, was only 50 percent efficient, it would have to be >> putting 150 amps into a 12volt 'load'. >> Then if we are considering that the battery is charged, as stated, the >> power >> consumed by the alternator should be way under a hp. At least the power >> consumed by an alternator should be quite low when the battery doesnt need >> to >> be charged, and there are no heater motors and -or air conditioning >> clutches >> and fans running. >> >> This is the message that I read --------- >> >> Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at >> WOT. >> -Mark >> >> >> >> Return-Path: owner-merkur-owners@xxx.COM >> >> Here's a gizmo that sounds useful. It automatically switches off >> alternator >> load if you're at full throttle and you've got plenty of charge in your >> battery, >> allowing the engine to devote ALL its power to moving forward. >> >> >> Jerry > ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:49:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at WOT. > > Something to consider on the flip side - your alternator > puts out 13.x volts... where as a fresh battery puts out > 12V. As you use the battery more and more without charging > it, the voltage simply goes down. Until about 9V when the > car stalls and you go camping at that exact spot :) > A 12 volt battery puts out 12.6 volts and most cars have a running operating voltage of 13.5 to maybe 15.5 volts [minor nit] The thing that I always question about these freebee cutout thingies is that if you understand how an alternator regulator works, you wouldn't expect much of a horsepower increase from them. Dont forget, if system voltage is okay and significant loads are not switched on [headlights, A/C, sound system...] the alternator will only be outputting a fraction of its rated amperage, thus no power loss, ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:51:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:54:35 -0500 > From: Shannen Durphey > To: "diy_efi@xxx.edu" > Subject: Off Panhard bar > > Too much coffee today. I've been looking at 4 link rear axles, and > the panhard bars. It looks like the usual panhard bar will tend to > push the axle to one side as it travels vertically. The only way to > prevent this that I can think of is to make a bellcrank between two > panhard bars, and mount the axle to the bellcrank. But I don't see thats a watts linkage. works well with small axle travel ( I tried it on a home built 4x4) with a panhard rod if the rod is long and horizontal the arc is not that bad. HP book how to made your car handle is a good refference for suspension info > anyone building this setup, so the L-R movement of the axle might not > be a problem. Anyone have some suspension experience? I have some ( and a few friends with scca race cars) > > Shannen > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:23:55 -0500 Subject: RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch I don't believe so. These examples I'm talking about (and I apologize I can't remember more) were limited by competition rules to 1) running distributor ignition (Smokey's Chevy's and Thomson's 24 hour Mustang particularly) and 2) running alternators. > -----Original Message----- > From: Guenther,Max [SMTP:Mguenther@xxx.COM] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 9:10 AM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > > Weren't most of thos cars magneto driven though, hence no loss of > ignition power? > > ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:27:31 -0500 Subject: RE: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch As Clerance Snyder pointed out a bit ago - the losses are largely mechanical - - not electrical. And true 5 hp isn't much but then again - the difference on the dyno for most 60's muscle cars between a 2 bbl carb and a 4 was just about 5 hp. And how many people popped for the big carb!???? :-) Everything is relative.... rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Davies [SMTP:jimd@xxx.ca] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 9:49 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Fwd: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch > > > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > Thought someone might find this interesting.... Good for 5 free hp at > WOT. > > > > Something to consider on the flip side - your alternator > > puts out 13.x volts... where as a fresh battery puts out > > 12V. As you use the battery more and more without charging > > it, the voltage simply goes down. Until about 9V when the > > car stalls and you go camping at that exact spot :) > > > A 12 volt battery puts out 12.6 volts and most cars have a running > operating voltage of 13.5 to maybe 15.5 volts [minor nit] The thing that I > always question about these freebee cutout thingies is that if you > understand how an alternator regulator works, you wouldn't expect much of > a horsepower increase from them. Dont forget, if system voltage is okay > and significant loads are not switched on [headlights, A/C, sound > system...] the alternator will only be outputting a fraction of its rated > amperage, thus no power loss, ------------------------------ From: "Peter D. Hipson" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:06:37 -0500 Subject: Re: VSS and Transmission Output speed I'm doing extensive work on the TISS/TOSS senders. No, they are not equal in pulses per revolution, there is a substantial difference. (I've the ratios, if that's important...) The senders are both magnetic coil type, returning an A/C signal who's frequency (and voltage) varies with the RPM. The only reason the voltage changes is due to improved efficiency at higher speeds--the voltage change is not significant to the TCM, for example. Be aware that common mode noise can be a problem with these senders, as can bad connectors. As well, the sender itself fails frequently--arrggg! At 11:01 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, Dr. Plecan. > >4L80E trans has 2 speed sensors installed, Transmission Input Shaft >Speed and Transmission Output Shaft Speed. Early 4wd (pre94) had >separate VSS and dedicated signal to PCM, 2wd and 94+4wd didn't have >extra sensor so combined the signals. > >TOSS is used for gear ratio calculations, VSS is used for shift >control. TISS is used for TCC control, shift pattern, shift quality. > >I remember a few codes for these, trans component slipping, tcc apply >error, undefined gear ratio, excessive shift times. > >Nothing I have gives # of pulses/rev, but I think the frequency is >different between the two shafts, due to different "wheel" diameters. >Definitely A/C from the sensor, as they are the same part no. TISS >must be conditioned inside the PCM, TOSS may depend on the year of the >calibration. Kinda makes the electronic >simulations a job for the entire CSH staff... >Shannen > >Bruce Plecan wrote: >> >> On a 8625 pcm, there are two connections, one labeled VSS, which is vehicle >> speed sensor, and a second one labeled transmission output speed, they >> both feed from the Vehicle Speed Signal Bufffer to the PCM. Can anyone >> splain this to me?. Is this just a way of checking for transmission >> "slippage". >> Anyone happen to know what this 5v signal should be?. ie square, 4,000ppm?. >> Thanks >> Bruce > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:45:44 -0800 Subject: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine uh, help. I need some recomedations for a single injector throttle body that I can mount sideways, that does something around 300 cfm, and or is adequte for a street motor of 2000 cc. I am re-thinking my plan to use a gm tbi system, (lack of space vertically in the engine compartment) and I can obtain a sidedraft manifold real cheap. the vw and volvo throttle bodies do not have an injector on them and due to my head design I can't use direct injectors. (siamesed intake ex ports), bosch did make a monotronic system but I don't believe it ever made it to the US. I am aware of one company that makes an aftermarket product for this applicaiton, but the cost is something like 800-900 dollars US. I think that there was an escort system in the mid 80's that had a single injector tbi system. But I have no idea of the year and calls to yards hasn't been helpful. thanks for your help. Ted Stowe ------------------------------ From: Glen Beard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:47:00 -0500 Subject: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > you should see what a diff an electric sater pump makes > > some stock pumps use more than 30 HP at redline on a revver > > I've heard this, however never had the courage to venture into this method. I've > always been afraid that the alternator would go, and the pump would slow down and > not cool properly. Probably a silly fear, since the EFI systems I slap on > everything run off the alternator too. No voltage, no anything, not just water. Now water pumps... I believe that electric water pumps are worth more than just HP. You can run them whit the electric fans in the staging lanes to cool the motor. Don't the dragsters run the 1/4 w/o a water pump at all? You could turn it off just before the run. - -- Glen Beard 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech !heads, !cam http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:59:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Glen Beard wrote: > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > you should see what a diff an electric sater pump makes > > > some stock pumps use more than 30 HP at redline on a revver > > > > I've heard this, however never had the courage to venture into this method. I've > > always been afraid that the alternator would go, and the pump would slow down and > > not cool properly. Probably a silly fear, since the EFI systems I slap on > > everything run off the alternator too. No voltage, no anything, not just water. > > Now water pumps... I believe that electric water pumps are worth more than just HP. > You can run them whit the electric fans in the staging lanes to cool the motor. > > Don't the dragsters run the 1/4 w/o a water pump at all? You could turn it off just > before the run. > It is useful to have an electric water pump, but I believe drag race is about the only use. There are several people (on the f-body list with electric pumps), that say that the do not flow enough for road racing, so that needs to be kept in mine when looking at one. It may comprimise being able to use the vehicle as a daily drive or a road race vehicle. If I was only drag racing, I would have an electric. Roger ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:41:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > Don't the dragsters run the 1/4 w/o a water pump at all? You could turn it off just > before the run. Our funny car doesn't have a radiator, water pump, or any coolant lines. However, the block is filled with coolant and two release valves are mounted on the water pump mounting locations. obviously, idling for a length of time requires shutdown when the temp his close to 250 degrees (I think). In fact, after a 1/4 run down the track, the engine is shut down for overheating reasons, as well as to prevent damage to the cyl walls. See, the pistons have small holes drilled in them that allow some combustion pressure through to push on the top ring even more. During deceleration of the engine, this apparently causes more wear. I just drove and was following orders - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ From: Barry Gibson Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:40:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch richard's point is just as valid today as it was however many years ago. pick up a copy of hot rod, muscle mustang, fast ford, etc etc etc and look at the advertisements ... you'll find that several vendors supply under drive pulleys for late model muscle cars, and that 5 to 8 _rear wheel hp_ (!) is the typical gain. this is no bull: these magazines have run _independent_ dyno tests and verified these claims several times. discussion on the list seems to confirm that the loss _from the alternator itself_ should be about 1 or 2 hp ... where does the rest come from? the belts. in a high rpm situation -- be it on a dyno or at the race track -- if you spin the alternator w/ stock pulleys that were designed for 2 -> 3k operation at twice that speed or more, you are going to have some very high losses thru belt hysteries. hey, the oem system was design to live in day to day situations for mom & pop ... barry Jemison Richard wrote: > I agree the alternator output is very low when the battery is charged but > the stator coils are still charged (and therefore exerting a magnetic field) > and there is still a mechanical loss associated with spinning the > alternator. I don't know that you can prove or disprove this theory on the > electrical basis of the alternators parameters alone completely discounting > the mechanical losses. All I can tell you is that this has been a pretty > well established and observed loss on dynomometers with engines running at > speeds above 5000 rpm. Alternator on the engine (X -5 hp). Stop - pull > the alternator - rerun the test ( X output!). Seems pretty simple. For > myself - I don't really care WHY the alternators sucking the power. If I > get down to where 5 hp makes the difference - the alternator's gone! > > rick > ------------------------------ From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:37:55 -0800 Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Hi Ted Find TBI's on a ton of 4 cyl Gms.. On my 2.0 sunbird for instance using a 748 ecm. It should work ok if you don't guite mount it horizontal. Like sidedrafts I've seen about 30 degrees. Dodge also had a ton of 2.2 tbis although they use higher fuel pressure than gm. Gl:peter ------------------------------ From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:59:47 EST Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch I agree the alternator output is very low when the battery is charged but the stator coils are still charged (and therefore exerting a magnetic field) and there is still a mechanical loss associated with spinning the alternator. I don't know that you can prove or disprove this theory on the electrical basis of the alternators parameters alone completely discounting the mechanical losses. All I can tell you is that this has been a pretty well established and observed loss on dynomometers with engines running at speeds above 5000 rpm. Alternator on the engine (X -5 hp). Stop - pull the alternator - rerun the test ( X output!). Seems pretty simple. For myself - I don't really care WHY the alternators sucking the power. If I get down to where 5 hp makes the difference - the alternator's gone! That is not fair --- you pulled the fan (on the alternator) off. Jerry ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:07:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > > > It is useful to have an electric water pump, but I believe drag race > is about the only use. There are several people (on the f-body list > with electric pumps), that say that the do not flow enough for road > racing, so that needs to be kept in mine when looking at one. It may > comprimise being able to use the vehicle as a daily drive or a road > race vehicle. If I was only drag racing, I would have an electric. some guys have used things like marine bilge pumps they are trubine style pumps with a strait trhough flow path can move massive amounts of water with the larger sizes should be no reason no to use one of these Clive ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:12:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine > > > uh, help. > > I need some recomedations for a single injector throttle body that I can > mount sideways, that does something around 300 cfm, and or is adequte for a > street motor of 2000 cc. GM mid 80s Sunbird Cavaler etc with 2.0 l came with TBI Clive ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:10:50 -0700 Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine >uh, help. > >I need some recomedations for a single injector throttle body that I can >mount sideways, that does something around 300 cfm, and or is adequte for a >street motor of 2000 cc. > >I am re-thinking my plan to use a gm tbi system, (lack of space vertically >in the engine compartment) and I can obtain a sidedraft manifold real cheap. > >the vw and volvo throttle bodies do not have an injector on them and due to >my head design I can't use direct injectors. (siamesed intake ex ports), >bosch did make a monotronic system but I don't believe it ever made it to >the US. > >I am aware of one company that makes an aftermarket product for this >applicaiton, but the cost is something like 800-900 dollars US. There is an aftermarket Brit outfit that makes stuff like this, price not as bad as you are saying, but not free, either. Do you need one or two? Greg > >I think that there was an escort system in the mid 80's that had a single >injector tbi system. But I have no idea of the year and calls to yards >hasn't been helpful. > > >thanks for your help. > >Ted Stowe ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:31:30 -0500 Subject: Harnesses are a waste I got the harnesses, one is 2' long with 3 wires, 2 connectors. The others are longer and have a headlight connector and a #67 bulb holder. Hardly worth the money. Bought 6 @$5 ($25 min), plus $9+ for S+H = no bargain Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:31:27 -0800 Subject: RE: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine I just need one single injector tbi. - -----Original Message----- From: bearbvd@xxx.net] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 9:11 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine >uh, help. > >I need some recomedations for a single injector throttle body that I can >mount sideways, that does something around 300 cfm, and or is adequte for a >street motor of 2000 cc. > >I am re-thinking my plan to use a gm tbi system, (lack of space vertically >in the engine compartment) and I can obtain a sidedraft manifold real cheap. > >the vw and volvo throttle bodies do not have an injector on them and due to >my head design I can't use direct injectors. (siamesed intake ex ports), >bosch did make a monotronic system but I don't believe it ever made it to >the US. > >I am aware of one company that makes an aftermarket product for this >applicaiton, but the cost is something like 800-900 dollars US. There is an aftermarket Brit outfit that makes stuff like this, price not as bad as you are saying, but not free, either. Do you need one or two? Greg > >I think that there was an escort system in the mid 80's that had a single >injector tbi system. But I have no idea of the year and calls to yards >hasn't been helpful. > > >thanks for your help. > >Ted Stowe ------------------------------ From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:32:58 -0800 Subject: RE: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Peter, I'm not familiar with the dodge stuff, were they horizontal or vertical mounts ? were they japanese engines ? thanks, Ted. - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Fenske [mailto:pfenske@xxx.ca] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:38 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Hi Ted Find TBI's on a ton of 4 cyl Gms.. On my 2.0 sunbird for instance using a 748 ecm. It should work ok if you don't guite mount it horizontal. Like sidedrafts I've seen about 30 degrees. Dodge also had a ton of 2.2 tbis although they use higher fuel pressure than gm. Gl:peter ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:34:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > some guys have used things like marine bilge pumps > they are trubine style pumps with a strait trhough flow path > can move massive amounts of water with the larger sizes > should be no reason no to use one of these For my intercooling experiments, I had used a plastic 12V bilge pump to move the ice water out of an igloo cooler through the intercooler in the intake, then back. They flow pretty good for a mere 30 bucks. Not sure if the plastic ones would hold up to 200+ degree coolant however. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:39:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Harnesses are a waste > Hardly worth the money. > Bought 6 @$5 ($25 min), plus $9+ for S+H = no bargain I thought this was an efi harness? Sounds like I misunderstood or there are just a -few- connectors missing. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Eidson, Mark" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:48:34 -0800 Subject: RE: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw What did you use for your intercooler in the intake? me ------------------------------ From: Dan Llewellyn2 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:52:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers I have wondered about this myself. I have heard anywhere from 15% to 25% in drivetrain losses. What I can't figure out is where the energy is going. If you have a 300HP engine with 25% drivetrain loss, then you are losing 75HP somewhere. Since it doesn't just disappear, something has to be soaking up 75HP of energy. My guess is that the loss would be in the form of heat which would mean of lot of drivetrain parts would have to be getting really hot (assuming the 300HP load on the engine). Since I have only seen my transmission get warm, it doesn't really make much sense unless I just haven't had the load on for a long enough period. I wonder sometimes if people don't estimate drivetrain losses on the high side because they don't want to admit that their engines aren't as powerful as they want them to be. Dan L ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:50:11 -0500 Subject: RE: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw that is correct. rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Beard [SMTP:gbeard1@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:47 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > > Don't the dragsters run the 1/4 w/o a water pump at all? You could turn > it off just > before the run. > > -- > Glen Beard > 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech !heads, !cam > http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html > ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:02:25 -0500 Subject: eprom emulator Hi There: I just found a url for an eprom emulator http://space.tin.it/computer/lorgler/nonst-e.html Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".