DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 12 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 162 In this issue: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator Re: Real HP loss numbers Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Real HP loss numbers Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw RE: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Real HP loss numbers Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? RE: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? Re: Real HP loss numbers Chassis dynos exposed Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Real HP loss numbers Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? Bosch Fuel Pump RE: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? Re: Real HP loss numbers See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Heflin Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:57:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Heflin > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:17 PM > Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > > Moroso sold a kit for reverse flow conversions on the SBC. Not enough HP > for > the expense.. OEM castings used. > Bruce > The only claim I have heard that makes it worth while, is that if you cool the heads first you can allegly raise the compress .5 more before knocking over a non reverse cooled engine. This is supposed to be one of the reasons that a LT1 can run with at 10.4:1 compressions. And adjusting the compression is somewhat expensive, unless you are already redoing the pistons. Roger ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:59:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 ScottyCBoy@xxx.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:49:54 EST > From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > In a message dated 03/12/1999 10:07:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, > clive@xxx.com writes: snip > > << > > > I have pondered the us of electric water pumps and I believe that they would > be beneficial in many ways: > > First no thermostat would be needed, when the engine get's to operating temp > the pump would turn on.. the water pump helps the engine warm up evenly ( the coolant flow through the bypass) > Second the pump can run at varying speeds, while light cruising the pump speed > would be slower than at full steam, saving fuel.. that would be nice > Thrid the engine could theoretically warm up quicker as there would be no leak > past a closed thermostat and coolant wouldn't be circulating through a cold > engine... I think you could run into problems here, the heads are the hotest area, the bottom end would stay too cold then get a thermal shock when hit by the warm water > Fourth reverse flow coolant systems could be retorfitted easily just by > reversing the current to the pump, no special reverse flow pump impellers > would be needed... that would depend on the pump > > Scott > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:08:26 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Mark D'Sylva wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:00:44 -0800 > From: Mark D'Sylva > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator > > > Pat, > I attempted to look at the link (just curious) and it was dead. You don't > have to order eprom emulators all the way from Italy. this one has 2 banks that you can switch between here is a snip from their page. ______________________ A very developed version of an Eprom Emulator is represented by the NONSTOP CHIP TUNING. Two Eprom emulators combined in a single device, mounted on the engine control system (ECS) and connected to the PC. The ECS works with one of the Simulators, at the same time the code in the other one can be changed via PC. You only have to press a function key and the ECS switches to the second Eprom-Simulator. This is the TOGGLE-function. No engine-stop, no restart, everytime online. You want to make further changes? No problem! One of the Eprom Emulators is allways ready and can accept the new changes. You simply change the values and tables on the screen, then You upload them into the free Eprom Emulator and toggle between the two Eprom Emulators. The NONSTOP CHIP TUNING was designed to modify of tables and values of ECS of automobiles. It is connected to the parallel port (LPT1 or LPT2), the changes can be absolved during a running engine. On this way You can see and feel the changes in realtime. ___________________________________________________________________ somes kinda cool eh? > Many places in USA sell them. I > think even Universal Cross Assemblers in Canada sells one. > For anyone who is interested, here are a few vendors of ROM emulators: http://space.tin.it/computer/lorgler/nonst-e.htm as cut from netscape ( I was typing while reading over my shoulder) > > Dataman: the Dataman S4 is a programmer and emulator: www.dataman.com > Grammar Engine: Promice with trace: www.gei.com > EmuTec: PromJet emulator: www.emutec.com > I think TechTools (www.tech-tools.com) may also sell rom emulators > > Mark D'Sylva > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: "Ord Millar" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:10:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers There is also a lot of energy that is stored in the driveshaft, axles and wheels. A certain ammount of torque is taken for the angular acceleration of these parts. This shows up as "loss" when dyno testing the car (or any other type of acceleration test). - -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:26 PM Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers >> to 25% in drivetrain losses. What I can't figure out is where the >> energy is going. If you have a 300HP engine with 25% drivetrain > >Typically heat. As you accelerate, even if you don't spin >your tires, the tires do in fact heat a little bit. Drive >at 65 miles an hour for little while in 30 degree weather >and touch the tire surfaces - you can actually feel some >warmth on the tires. Also, your automatic transmission has >many places for losses, and these losses generate heat also, >hence the requirement for tranny coolers and such under high >loads. Also, your torque converter, when it locks, doesn't >quite lock at 100%. Being a fluid based "clamp" so to >speak, there are losses in there as well. Also, engine >bearing friction, rear seal friction, etc all add up. Even >your rear heats the fluid slightly, as you have a mechanical >connection (ring and pinion) that as it rotates, generates >heat. It makes heat because the teeth intertwine with each >other, and the pinion frictionally moves the ring gear >around. Some vehicles, especially long-bed trucks, have a >split driveshaft going to the rear end, which at the joint >of the two shafts, have a giant sperical bearing of some >sort. This heats up too :) > >Heat! > >> I wonder sometimes if people don't estimate drivetrain losses on the >> high side because they don't want to admit that their engines aren't >> as powerful as they want them to be. > >Could be. The only way to really know for sure is to dyno >the engine and measure flywheel torque and estimate the HP >from there, then do the same at the rear wheels, and compare >the two mathematically, then you know what your drivetrain >losses are. > >-- >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com >1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental >1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) >2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:16:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw - -----Original Message----- From: steve ravet To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw The reason water pumps are such a large HP lose is cause they need to be. You can slow em down some, and in some applications take em out. But, for a street motor, they is what they is. For you to have an electric motor pump as much as an oem waterpump you'd, have to have a big a----- motor/pump to replace it. For fast warm ups use a recirculating thermostat Bruce >> >> I have pondered the us of electric water pumps and I believe that they would >> be beneficial in many ways: >> >> First no thermostat would be needed, when the engine get's to operating temp >> the pump would turn on.. > >The pump has to run all the time, you don't want water sitting still >inside the block. It'll boil away from the cylinder walls before it >even gets warm wherever your temp sensor is. When the thermostat is >closed on a normal engine there is still water flowing through the >engine, either out thru the heater core and back in, or through a bypass >in the water pump or something. > >> >> Second the pump can run at varying speeds, while light cruising the pump speed >> would be slower than at full steam, saving fuel.. > >makes sense. > >> >> Thrid the engine could theoretically warm up quicker as there would be no leak >> past a closed thermostat and coolant wouldn't be circulating through a cold >> engine... > >see above... > >> >> Fourth reverse flow coolant systems could be retorfitted easily just by >> reversing the current to the pump, no special reverse flow pump impellers >> would be needed... > >isnt' there more to reverse flow than just turning the pump backwards? >reverse rotation water pumps have been around since they came up with >serpentine belt drives, but they still made some weird cam driven pump >for the reverse flow LT1. > >--steve > > >> >> Scott > >-- >Steve Ravet >steve.ravet@xxx.com >Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. >www.arm.com > ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:10:19 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > alternator, either. But with a street car (or old Dodge truck), we'd > have the alternator to keep the system charged. I'm actually thinking The only flaw in this logic is that the Dodge Truck has a Mopar alternator which doesn't charge the battery effectively, hence my desire to replace it with a GM unit. Just busting chops - but its a good set of ideas. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:23:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers - -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers I was talking to the folks at Comp Cams and they had a Ford Cup Car cut apart running a Optitron motion analysis on the valvetrain. Was real interesting watching the valve's motion on a PC. Oh, and the valve just barely even follows the motion of the cam other then afor a moment at opening (at 9,000 rpm). Yes, was wayyyyy noisy. Bruce >Ahh. There was an article (maybe super Chevy?) on valve spring >testing done by Isky cams. They use a block with no pistons or rods, >no plugs, and power it electrically. The cam, oil pump, and >valvetrain are installed. Oil temps still get to 210 deg even though >there is no combustion taking place. And the noise level was >suprisingly high, too. Gives a guy a little more respect for valve >springs. > >Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: >> >> > >> > I have wondered about this myself. I have heard anywhere from 15% >> > to 25% in drivetrain losses. What I can't figure out is where the >> > energy is going. If you have a 300HP engine with 25% drivetrain >> > loss, then you are losing 75HP somewhere. Since it doesn't just >> > disappear, something has to be soaking up 75HP of energy. My >> > guess is that the loss would be in the form of heat which would >> > mean of lot of drivetrain parts would have to be getting really hot >> > (assuming the 300HP load on the engine). Since I have only seen >> > my transmission get warm, it doesn't really make much sense unless >> > I just haven't had the load on for a long enough period. >> >> just estimate how much torque it takes to compress a valve spring >> multiply x 1/2 revs x # springs X length of valve travel x >> x losses in the vlave gear and add in the amount that it takes to >> move the valve train components around >> 15% sounds reasonable >> on 300 HP that would meav that another 52 HP was being eaten by the engine >> to move the valves >> >> Clive >> >> > >> >> > I wonder sometimes if people don't estimate drivetrain losses on the >> > high side because they don't want to admit that their engines aren't >> > as powerful as they want them to be. >> > >> > Dan L >> > >> > > ------------------------------ From: WLundquist@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:32:03 EST Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Shannen, What you discribed is a watts link. If you are serious about a 4 link, depending on your application, consider instead a wishbone link. Current drag racers use either a diagonal link, good only for going in a straight line, or a wishbone setup. Contact Chassis Engineering or Art Morrison Enterprises for technical info. Good reading would be Herb Adams, VSE fame, "Chassis Engineering " from HPBooks, 1055. Good Luck Wayne ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:36:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Heflin To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw When the Moroso kit was sold it was suposed to allow more timing, less fuel, more HP. Further optimising it, was with raising the CR. Either and/or didn't happen (or enough to be cost effective). While effective maybe for WC Racing, for the DIY, there wasn't the instant HP gain, .5 CR raise or not. Point was stock castings, not much gain. The new Chev motor had alot of other stuff done to it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they actually picked up a couple HP just in the water pump drive. Bruce >> Moroso sold a kit for reverse flow conversions on the SBC. Not enough HP >> for >> the expense.. OEM castings used. >> Bruce >> > >The only claim I have heard that makes it worth while, is that if you >cool the heads first you can allegly raise the compress .5 more before >knocking over a non reverse cooled engine. This is supposed to be one >of the reasons that a LT1 can run with at 10.4:1 compressions. And >adjusting the compression is somewhat expensive, unless you are >already redoing the pistons. > > Roger > ------------------------------ From: "Kurek, Larry" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:36:14 -0600 Subject: RE: Bosch Fuel Pump Well, if it is an external pump with threaded inlet and outlets, high pressure it is probably the pump I have been looking high and low for. The 9 in the part number refers to a domestic Bosch application. The pump I had (leaks like a sieve now due to MTBE eating the internal O-rings) was made by Bosch for Accel (actually, for DFI before they were bought by Accel). TTYL! Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: Clarence Wood [mailto:clarencewood@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:11 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Bosch Fuel Pump > > > Can anybody help me find out anything about this pump: > > Bosch: 9 580 810 020 > 12V. 562-10 > E7TF.9350.AA 5B10 > > Thanks > Clarence > > IZCC #3426 > 1982 280ZX Turbo GL > 1966 El Camino > 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle > 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) > 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower > Clarence Wood > Software&Such... > clarencewood@xxx.net > Savannah, TN. > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:45:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >> >> I have pondered the us of electric water pumps and I believe that they would >> be beneficial in many ways: >> >> First no thermostat would be needed, when the engine get's to operating temp >> the pump would turn on.. > >The pump has to run all the time, you don't want water sitting still >inside the block. It'll boil away from the cylinder walls before it >even gets warm wherever your temp sensor is. When the thermostat is >closed on a normal engine there is still water flowing through the >engine, either out thru the heater core and back in, or through a bypass >in the water pump or something. Why doncha all just go buy Waukesha engines designed for ebullient cooling, and be done with the need for a water pump?? Course, they're kinda HEAVY for going quick, ya might get a tad of understeer, mebbe pop the front tires, or break off the spindles! Greg > >> >> Second the pump can run at varying speeds, while light cruising the pump >>speed >> would be slower than at full steam, saving fuel.. > >makes sense. > >> >> Thrid the engine could theoretically warm up quicker as there would be >>no leak >> past a closed thermostat and coolant wouldn't be circulating through a cold >> engine... > >see above... > >> >> Fourth reverse flow coolant systems could be retorfitted easily just by >> reversing the current to the pump, no special reverse flow pump impellers >> would be needed... > >isnt' there more to reverse flow than just turning the pump backwards? >reverse rotation water pumps have been around since they came up with >serpentine belt drives, but they still made some weird cam driven pump >for the reverse flow LT1. > >--steve > > >> >> Scott > >-- >Steve Ravet >steve.ravet@xxx.com >Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. >www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:47:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers >Ahh. There was an article (maybe super Chevy?) on valve spring >testing done by Isky cams. They use a block with no pistons or rods, >no plugs, and power it electrically. The cam, oil pump, and >valvetrain are installed. Oil temps still get to 210 deg even though >there is no combustion taking place. And the noise level was >suprisingly high, too. Gives a guy a little more respect for valve >springs. Yeah, but even with that, the only heating that goes on is from hysteresis and friction! Look at the oil spray spring coolers that Winston cup cars use now! Greg > >Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: >> >> > >> > I have wondered about this myself. I have heard anywhere from 15% >> > to 25% in drivetrain losses. What I can't figure out is where the >> > energy is going. If you have a 300HP engine with 25% drivetrain >> > loss, then you are losing 75HP somewhere. Since it doesn't just >> > disappear, something has to be soaking up 75HP of energy. My >> > guess is that the loss would be in the form of heat which would >> > mean of lot of drivetrain parts would have to be getting really hot >> > (assuming the 300HP load on the engine). Since I have only seen >> > my transmission get warm, it doesn't really make much sense unless >> > I just haven't had the load on for a long enough period. >> >> just estimate how much torque it takes to compress a valve spring >> multiply x 1/2 revs x # springs X length of valve travel x >> x losses in the vlave gear and add in the amount that it takes to >> move the valve train components around >> 15% sounds reasonable >> on 300 HP that would meav that another 52 HP was being eaten by the engine >> to move the valves >> >> Clive >> >> > >> >> > I wonder sometimes if people don't estimate drivetrain losses on the >> > high side because they don't want to admit that their engines aren't >> > as powerful as they want them to be. >> > >> > Dan L >> > >> > ------------------------------ From: WATCHmeDRV@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:59:13 EST Subject: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? On my drag car I have the old SI alternator that I want to change over to the newer CS130 style. My old SI unit is a one wire how can I wire the new style CS130 to work. Thanks DETROIT AMERSON ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:10:52 -0500 Subject: RE: Bosch Fuel Pump At 02:36 PM 3/12/99 -0600, you wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Clarence Wood [mailto:clarencewood@xxx.net] >> Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:11 PM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Bosch Fuel Pump >> >> >> Can anybody help me find out anything about this pump: >> >> Bosch: 9 580 810 020 >> 12V. 562-10 >> E7TF.9350.AA 5B10 >> Clarence, The E7TF part number looks like a ford number... Might call a ford dealer and ask what it fits. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Nykyforuk Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:28:06 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator >A very developed version of an Eprom Emulator is represented by the >NONSTOP CHIP TUNING. Two Eprom emulators combined in a single device, >mounted on the engine control system (ECS) and connected to the PC. >The ECS works with one of the Simulators, at the same time the code >in the other one can be > >changed via PC. You only have to press a function key and the ECS >switches to the second Eprom-Simulator. This is the TOGGLE-function. >No engine-stop, no restart, everytime online. You want to make further >changes? No problem! One of the Eprom Emulators is allways ready and can >accept the new changes. You simply change the values and tables on the >screen, then You upload them into the free Eprom Emulator and toggle >between the two Eprom Emulators. > >The NONSTOP CHIP TUNING was designed to modify of tables and values of ECS >of automobiles. It is connected to the parallel port (LPT1 or LPT2), the >changes can be absolved during a running engine. >On this way You can see and feel the changes in realtime. >___________________________________________________________________ > >somes kinda cool eh? >Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > Where can aperson buy this and how much is it? Nolan ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:42:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > The only flaw in this logic is that the Dodge Truck has a > Mopar alternator which doesn't charge the battery > effectively, hence my desire to replace it with a GM unit. > Why not just fix it? ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 WATCHmeDRV@xxx.com wrote: > On my drag car I have the old SI alternator that I want to change over to the > newer CS130 style. My old SI unit is a one wire how can I wire the new style > CS130 to work. > The only one wire delcotrons I am aware of are the permanent magnet rotor marine units. ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:00:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > The only flaw in this logic is that the Dodge Truck has a > > Mopar alternator which doesn't charge the battery > > effectively, hence my desire to replace it with a GM unit. > > > Why not just fix it? Because its a small, 43A alternator and since I'm putting in a nice EFI system, and redoing everything anyway, I wanted to ugprade the alternator at the same time. That and I happen to have a GM alternator. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:22:55 -0500 Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine Use the little GM downdraft mounted sideways - no float or equiv. to worry about, it'l run upside down. ------------------------------ From: Pat Ford Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:23:43 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Nykyforuk wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:28:06 -0700 > From: Nykyforuk > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #160, Eprom Emulator > > > > > >The NONSTOP CHIP TUNING was designed to modify of tables and values of ECS > >of automobiles. It is connected to the parallel port (LPT1 or LPT2), the > >changes can be absolved during a running engine. > >On this way You can see and feel the changes in realtime. > >___________________________________________________________________ > > > >somes kinda cool eh? > > >Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > > > Where can aperson buy this and how much is it? http://space.tin.it/computer/lorgler/nonst-e.htm is the url, I don't think I saw a price, has anyone else looked at it?? > Nolan > > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:25:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Some of the real serious guys have the blocks filled - no coolant at all (they only run for about 6 seconds) ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:33:21 -0500 Subject: Re: single injector TBI throttle body needed for 2 liter engine > Peter, I'm not familiar with the dodge stuff, were they horizontal or > vertical mounts ? > were they japanese engines ? > > thanks, Ted. > Vertical mount, not Jap engines. The 2.2 and 2.5 were both inhouse chysler designs - influenced more by VW than Japan - the 2.5 was chryslers own design to get away from Mitsu 2.6 and still have silent shaft without patent infringement - note the silent shafts are in the pan instead of high in the block. ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:37:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? They make a 1 wire conversion for the SI style. I have only seen it in magazines, though. Shannen Jim Davies wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 WATCHmeDRV@xxx.com wrote: > > > On my drag car I have the old SI alternator that I want to change over to the > > newer CS130 style. My old SI unit is a one wire how can I wire the new style > > CS130 to work. > > > The only one wire delcotrons I am aware of are the permanent magnet rotor > marine units. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:48:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers > just estimate how much torque it takes to compress a valve spring > multiply x 1/2 revs x # springs X length of valve travel x > x losses in the vlave gear and add in the amount that it takes to > move the valve train components around > 15% sounds reasonable > on 300 HP that would meav that another 52 HP was being eaten by the engine > to move the valves > You forget the valve spring also accelerates the cam as the valve closes - - gotta take that into account as well. All is not as simple as it looks. The Electric Vehicle conversion guys figure front drive transaxles to be 91% efficient, crank to pavement. Bevel gear transaxles, like early tercel, LeCar, Beetle, etc, about90%.Typical read drive, like a pinto, chevette, rear drive corolla, etc, 82% in other than direct, and 85% in direct drive (4th of a 5 speed) This is with manual trans. From my experience I'd say that was very close. (128 Fiat coupe with 6 HP converted Aircraft Generator) ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:42:00 -0800 Subject: Chassis dynos exposed Since all this talk about chassis dyno figures and methods has erupted today, I submit this. They're are a few distinct differences in chassis dynamometer types. Each type has pros and cons. Up until a year or so ago, all the load type dynos out there had primitive operating systems, if at all. They worked by running the car on the dyno, loading up the rollers (usually via a water brake system), and reading the horse power number when the load prevented the engine from accelerating past a predetermined rpm. This gave you the max hp the engine could produce at that particular rpm, since it couldn't overcome the force being thrown at it. Take readings at several rpm points (usually manually recorded), and a power graph can be made, extrapolating torque numbers mathematically. Thus, the load type dyno graphs are not "smooth" because not every point along the curve is actually plotted, but just the predetermined (by the operator) rpm points. The more points tested, the more complete and smooth the curve. A primitive graph can be made with Excel, or any spread sheet software. However, that is quite time consuming, and hard on the car's engine and tires. Plus, operator skill is essential in preventing tire slip from corrupting the data gathered. Loading up an engine is how a manufacturer determines and engine's power output, by the way. This is all in contrast to the Dynojet inertia type testing, which simply requires the car to run on the rollers from standstill or low rpms, to redline or anywhere in between (in one or several gears). The rate of acceleration is measured, and power is mathematically calculated using the constant of roller weight. The time it takes to accelerate a given mass to a particular speed can be used to calculate hp. It is relatively painless to the car, and quickly measured. Plus, the Dynojet software allows automatic graphing, which produces an attractive consumer product. However, the downside to this measuring form is that, in the real world, the vehicle is working harder than what is required in accelerating the rollers on a Dynojet. Between the weight of the car itself, elevation changes, and surface friction, the actual environment the engine works in during use is quite different from its experience on an inertia type dyno. This is an important factor to consider when interpreting the hp gain of a particular mod/product. For example, lots of ignition timing can be thrown at an engine to produce big hp numbers on an inertia dyno, but the same ignition setting can result in *less* hp when the engine is actually required to work on the street. Preignition or detonation can occur, tripping the knock sensors and causing the ECU to roll back the timing to less than stock. Not good for power. Same issue with fueling. Leaner fuel maps may work well when subjected to the relatively gentle inertia rollers, but can be disastrous when under load on the street. The Dynojet is a great marketing tool, but is not an accurate, real world measuring device. Dynojet now has a load type device that can be added to their existing models, but it currently is fixed, and cannot be altered. So, it suffers from the same drawback as the older type load dynos. The best of both worlds is the load type dyno with a sophisticated operating system. For example, a Mustang MD-250 chassis dyno is rated at a maximum hp load of 750. However, we can load it from 0hp (simply spinning the attached flywheel and rollers like the Dynojet) up to 750hp and anywhere in between. We can specify a time period over which we want a load to be applied. We can simulate a series of hills, as the car goes up and down in elevation, which obviously varies the load on the engine. We can set a specific rpm at which the dyno can apply a specific load. In other words, the load application on a MD-250 dyno is practically infinitely variable, and can be as punishing or gentle on the engine as we want. All controlled by the Windows based software on the controller PC, with hand held operator controls. For development use, the load ability is crucial, to produce a product that will perform correctly in the real world. For promotional use, such for dyno days, the inertia mode is useful. Hope that clears us some confusion regarding the types of chassis dynamometers out there. Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:52:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw re: advantages of electric pump - running without the pump on for warmup would cause locallised overheating - NOT a good idea. I would think about electric for a drag car, but no way for the street. It's been done, and it does NOT work. ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:50:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > Some of the real serious guys have the blocks filled - no coolant at all > (they only run for about 6 seconds) Burn out, reverse back at near idle (1250 RPM typically), then a few seconds later the tree goes then the cars go, and are shut down at the end after the finish line. There have been cases that we've shut down while the other guy stages, if we stage second to prevent damage. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:58:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers > So, when someone is talking about a 75hp loss, not all that loss is friction, > otherwise our drivetrains would glow in the dark! However, much of the loss due > to momentum is taken up by the engine (more strain), which shows up as heat in > the coolant and oil. > > If my physics are wrong, please correct me. > > Just my $0.02. The indicated horsepower on an inertia dyno may indicate this as lost power, but in fact it is not. In a sustained speed condition all the inertia effects dissapear, and when you slow down you get the power back. An accurate chassis dyno cannot depend on inertia alone. ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:06:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? Summit has 63 and 100 amp 1 wire delcotrons - sum-g1666 and g1667. There are normal wound rotor delcotrons with self-energizing regs. They ARE out there, they do work, and they are extremely simple to install. ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:14:35 -0600 Subject: Bosch Fuel Pump Can anybody give me any information on the following Bosch pump, or how to find out about the pump? Bosch:9 580 810 020 12V. 562-10 E7TF.9350.AA 5B10 Thanks, Clarence IZCC #3426 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood@xxx.net Savannah, TN. ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:30:55 -0600 Subject: RE: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? Try this out . Look at your Alt by the regulator plug in if you have P,L,I,S connect L in series with a 500 ohm 1/2 watt resistor. connect the cathode end (band) of a 1N4007 diode to the other end of the resistor. Connect a wire from the I term to the cathode of the same 1N4007 diode. Connect the anode of the diode to the output terminal of the alt. If you have a P,L,F,S, regulator connect a 500 ohm 1/2 watt resistor to the L term, the cathode of a 1N4007 diode to the other end of the resistor. Connect the F terminal to the cathode of the same diode and the anode to the output terminal of the Alt. This method has not been tried yet but I have researched the CS delco shop manual and I believe it should work. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Davies [SMTP:jimd@xxx.ca] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:45 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Convert a GM SI alternator to the CS130? > > > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 WATCHmeDRV@xxx.com wrote: > > > On my drag car I have the old SI alternator that I want to change over > to the > > newer CS130 style. My old SI unit is a one wire how can I wire the new > style > > CS130 to work. > > > The only one wire delcotrons I am aware of are the permanent magnet rotor > marine units. > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:23:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers Ok, I'm working to understand this. The chassis dyno has no brake, so they measure the change in acceleration of the drums to compute power. This means that anything that changes the rate of acceleration of the wheels changes the rate of acceleration of the drums, and the calculated horsepower. This also means that without acceleration, the chassis dyno cannot measure horsepower, hence no steady rpm measurements can be taken and no tuning done at any given rpm, yes? This would also mean that claims like "lighter pulley adds 5 hp" are mrginally correct based on chassis dyno measurements, but technically should say something like "lighter pulley increases acceleration equivalent to adding 5 more hp", since at any given rpm the hp level is ~constant, regardless of the mass of the rotating components. Yes? I only ask because I can see no other way that claims for replacing rotating components with lighter ones can add power. But I sure can see that they'll change the rate of acceleration. Shannen Daniel Ciobota wrote: > > Let me jump in on this discussion with an observation. Rear wheel hp numbers > are measured by observing the acceleration of two 1000lb drums by the driving > wheels of the car. That's how hp is calculated, rotational speed vs. time, > known weight of 2000lbs and known drum diameter. From those numbers, and final > gear ratios (rpm/drum rotation), the chassis dyno calculates instantaneous > torque required to accelerate the drum at that rate. > The key measurement here is rotational mass. That parameter affects how fast > those drums will accelerate, and since it's a known quantity for the chassis > dyno, accurate hp numbers at the driving wheels can be calculated. > To backtrack flywheel hp from driving wheel hp, a couple of parameters are most > important: frictional loss, as discussed here already, and _rotational mass_, > more accurately, momentum. Take for example an aluminum flywheel and the > equivalent steel version. In my stang, the aluminum piece weighed 10lbs, while > the steel piece was 23lbs. In neutral, the aluminum flywheel accelerated > significantly faster than the steel piece; no surprises there. The same concept > applies to the rotating pieces inside transmissions, driveshafts and rear ends; > the total momentum affects how fast the drive wheels can accelerate, thus > affecting rear wheel hp numbers. > From observation of different dynoed cars, I think that gm transmissions have > slightly less momentum and frictional loss than their ford counterparts. And, > of course, because of the fluid and rather massive torque converters, automatics > are significantly more sluggish and offer more loss. > So, when someone is talking about a 75hp loss, not all that loss is friction, > otherwise our drivetrains would glow in the dark! However, much of the loss due > to momentum is taken up by the engine (more strain), which shows up as heat in > the coolant and oil. > > If my physics are wrong, please correct me. > > Just my $0.02. > > Daniel > > Roger Heflin wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have wondered about this myself. I have heard anywhere from 15% > > > > to 25% in drivetrain losses. What I can't figure out is where the > > > > energy is going. If you have a 300HP engine with 25% drivetrain > > > > loss, then you are losing 75HP somewhere. Since it doesn't just > > > > disappear, something has to be soaking up 75HP of energy. My > > > > guess is that the loss would be in the form of heat which would > > > > mean of lot of drivetrain parts would have to be getting really hot > > > > (assuming the 300HP load on the engine). Since I have only seen > > > > my transmission get warm, it doesn't really make much sense unless > > > > I just haven't had the load on for a long enough period. > > > > > > > > > just estimate how much torque it takes to compress a valve spring > > > multiply x 1/2 revs x # springs X length of valve travel x > > > x losses in the vlave gear and add in the amount that it takes to > > > move the valve train components around > > > 15% sounds reasonable > > > on 300 HP that would meav that another 52 HP was being eaten by the engine > > > to move the valves > > > > > > Clive > > > > > > > For the 15% number everyone has generally ment the amount of hp lost > > after the flywheel. The wheel dynos hp nubmer vs. the engine only > > dyno numbers. So that claim is rear wheel hp * 1.15 (manual tranny) > > is roughly equal to the engine hp at the flywheel. The valves are > > the same and already accounted for in both cases. > > > > Roger ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".