DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 14 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 168 In this issue: Re: Off Panhard bar Re: exhaust system idea Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Off Panhard bar Re: exhaust system idea-Frederic Re: exhaust system idea Re: Fuel tuning... 4 cyl big block! Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw supercharged 3800 cal Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Fuel tuning... Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Fuel tuning... Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: exhaust system idea Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: exhaust system idea Re: Fuel tuning... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 05:41:25 EST Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar In a message dated 3/13/99 5:02:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, bztruck@xxx.com writes: << I agree a solid axle has no jacking. However, a lower rear roll center will make a car handle more consistently even with a solid axle. Given a choice, I would opt for a low roll center. >> Hi, I have been following this string for a bit and thought I would pass on a couple things. You might go and find a text with a Lotus Seven live axle arrangement. they were controlled by two upper parallel links like the top of a four link, and a triangle that attached to the chassis below the upper links and ran to a bushing on the bottom of the pumpkin. Roll center was right at the bushing height. Bushing were good unless the diff leaked, but were easy to replace. The De Dion setup for Lotus was similar except they split the triangle into two seperate links. Aloso of note is a setup called a Mumford link. It was developed in England (of course) and can be best described as a pair of Watts linkages joined together. It has the advantage of being able to center the axle and allow for roll centers below ground or above by position of the links. It is used on the cars built by Mallocck in the UK. Racecar Engineering had a writeup on it some time ago. Also the book 750 Racer has a bunch of info on it. It requires a strong frame, but has many good points, including the fact that you can run the other links in a Ladder bar or four link for traction control without affecting it. Fred ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:14:00 +0000 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea > Called cutouts, usually illegal. > If ya get caught with them it goes on your permanent file.. > Some cops judges really don't like em. As you can see from my tagline, I still firmly believe the best mufflers are a pair of properly sized turbochargers :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:10:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > Or get one of the HD 100 a Mopar units (they look completely different, and > are damn good!) And if that ain't good enough, do it right, and get a Leece > Neville! Or run two alternators, one for the coming roof lights, and one for the rest of the truck. LOL - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "H. J. Zivnak" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:21:19 -0800 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Hello Bruce, The easiest way to picture this is to imagine the Watts links attached to the frame and parallel to the axle, viewed from the rear. The bellcrank is attached to the centerline of the axle and vertical. Now, roll the chassis. Because the links are attached to the chassis, the bellcrank will move with it . The bellcrank is now perpendicular to the angle to which the chassis has rolled. If you bump the axle, it will move along the line of the bellcrank and shift laterally. The bump movement is perpendicular to the links. If you mount the bellcrank to the chassis, the axle won't shift when the chassis rolls as the links move with the axle, and bellcrank remains perpendicular to it. Regards, Joe - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar > >-----Original Message----- >From: H. J. Zivnak >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:06 PM >Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar > > >Big Snip >>An a arm is not a Watts linkage. A Watts linkage resembles a Panhard bar >>with a bellcrank in the center. The bellcrank should be attached to the >>chassis and the two rods attached to either end of the axle. The rods are >>parallel to the axle in their normal position. > > >Why would it matter if crank on axle or chassis?. Or just for unsprung >weight, >differences. >Bruce > ------------------------------ From: "xwiredtva@xxx.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:41:28 -0500 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea-Frederic Hello Frederic, Could use please contact me off-list. I have a few questions concerning turbocharging I'd like to ask ya, unless the rest of the list doesn't mind and has something to contribute that could help me. Xwiredtva@xxx.com -Todd >> Called cutouts, usually illegal. >> If ya get caught with them it goes on your permanent file.. >> Some cops judges really don't like em. > >As you can see from my tagline, I still firmly believe the >best mufflers are a pair of properly sized turbochargers :) > >-- >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com >1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental >1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) >2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:39:42 -0500 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea - -----Original Message----- From: James Weiler To: Greg Hermann Cc: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 1:36 AM Subject: Re: exhaust system idea In some towns in CA the law enforement types would look under the car (even in the rain) to find them. They were worried, (third hand 4 generation rumor) about parts falling off.. They used to be some available from JC Whitney, but again if ya get hasseled big time over em, don't be surprised. Fred's turbo as muffler idea, is good, with one downside. While the pulsations are all broken up they are loud, and easily fail any deciometer (?) test. Some small own tactics are using a measuring device, at one location, then as you drive by they radio ahead, and you pick up your ticket. Judge knows whats going one, so it's a you lose anyway ya go deal. There are tunable mufflers, where ya can "adjust" things. Personally just a 3" conventional muffler is fine with me.... Having never owned a loud car this is all just rumor, mmmmmm. Bruce >OK legal issues, I didn't think about that part.....uhm, how about only a >parial bypass then. What I mean is that the pipe with the butterfly >valve would protrude deep into the muffler such that most of the baffling >would be bypassed but not all of it. Does this make sense? Guess I need >to know what the noise limits are for my area and go from there. Need >to add a decibal meter to my wish list. > >thanks to all who replied, >later >jw > > >On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >> >On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: >> > >> >> Nothing new under the sun is the name of this game--This sort of a set-up >> >> used to be called either a "cut-out" or "lake-pipes" (as in the dry lakes >> >> in the desert in California). Illegal in lots of jurisdictions, but prolly >> >> not a lot of cops any more who would have a clue what was going on OR that >> >> they are illegal! >> >> >> >Don't know about your area, but here the cops are all busy filling out >> >forms, sleeping in the photoradar van or guarding the Hefties, so if you >> >stay away from these areas you would be safe. >> >> Yeah--and with cutouts on a turbomobile, I doubt they would have a clue >> that they should look for cut-outs. Not quite as obvious as cut-outs on >> something like a medium riser 427 FE!! >> >> Greg >> >> >> > ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:39:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... At 10:52 PM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >>I'm going by the O2 voltage readings... I know the Buick GN guys like to >>shoot for 780-820mV at WOT, but not sure if that applies here or not. > >Be careful with those numbers they are from the old OTC equipment and >those other >scantools that are set up the same. When read on a Diacom the reading >would be >about 890 to 930 . . . So actually, the numbers I'm seeing, since calculated from the GM formulas for this data stream, might be pretty close to optimum? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:07:16 +0000 Subject: 4 cyl big block! So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. Can anyone help me figure this out? Here's some other info I found: Model #: MCM470 disp: 224 CID 4cyl 170 HP The dist and the oil filter are both on the right/starboard front of the engine, the filter is horizontal. What is it??? - --steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:15:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Greg Hermann wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: steve ravet > >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > >Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:50 PM > >Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > > >The reason water pumps are such a large HP lose is cause they need to be. > >You > >can slow em down some, and in some applications take em out. But, for a > >street motor, > >they is what they is. > > For you to have an electric motor pump as much as an oem waterpump you'd, > >have to have a > >big a----- motor/pump to replace it. > > For fast warm ups use a recirculating thermostat > >Bruce > > Bruce is right on this, completely. (Or is it one of the little guys?) > > There is even a good debate possible as to whether a high pressure fuel > pump should be electrically or mechanically driven, let alone a water pump, > or an engine fan (if you are working an engine any kind of hard at low > speeds for any length of time)! > > For any sizable auxiliary drive loads, a mechanical drive is way more > efficient than an electrical one. > > Regards, Greg But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? - --steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:32:03 -0500 Subject: supercharged 3800 cal Anyone have a bin from a supercharged buick 3800? Park Ave ultra, Bonneville SSEi etc? Thanks, DAve =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:59:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw - -----Original Message----- From: steve ravet To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions at 9,000 rpm). You might need 10-15 at idle.. Or am I missing something here Bruce > >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? >--steve ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:02:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... - -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... No, the oem gm O2 sensor in you car is not temperature compensated. Period.. So the reading change by EGT. This is not the proper way to do it. Bruce >>>I'm going by the O2 voltage readings... I know the Buick GN guys like to >>>shoot for 780-820mV at WOT, but not sure if that applies here or not. >> >>Be careful with those numbers they are from the old OTC equipment and >>those other >>scantools that are set up the same. When read on a Diacom the reading >>would be >>about 890 to 930 . . . > >So actually, the numbers I'm seeing, since calculated from the GM formulas >for this data stream, might be pretty close to optimum? >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. >=========================================================== > ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:19:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > > Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... > (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions > at 9,000 rpm). > You might need 10-15 at idle.. > Or am I missing something here > Bruce no pressure head it just moves the stuff around probably a lot of power is not required maybe 1-2 HP Clive > > > >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather > >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over > >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to > >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those > >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be > >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran > >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? > >--steve > > ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:28:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > > So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying > to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on > converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. > Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( SCJ 429) or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit Clive > > Can anyone help me figure this out? Here's some other info I found: > Model #: MCM470 > disp: 224 CID 4cyl > 170 HP > > The dist and the oil filter are both on the right/starboard front of the > engine, the filter is horizontal. What is it??? > > --steve > > -- > Steve Ravet > ARM, INC > steve.ravet@xxx.com > www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:18:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: steve ravet > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... > (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions > at 9,000 rpm). > You might need 10-15 at idle.. > Or am I missing something here > Bruce It probably makes sense to drive the water pump mechanically, more flow at higher RPMs. But it seems like A/C, AIR, and PS would work better at a constant RPM. Or in the case of PS, lower RPM at higher road speeds. Just wondering out loud. - --steve > > > >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather > >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over > >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to > >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those > >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be > >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran > >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? > >--steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:26:29 EST Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Where can you buy this stuff used? It seems Mercriuser has all kinds of hybrids that are loosely based on the automotive market...I was at a Good Guys type rod meet 20 years ago, and saw a bowtie trailer with all kinds of "engines to be" in it... There was BBC V6, which was a 454 with the front two cylinders chopped off. It was a 340 CID V6 with huge ports.. I wonder if it made the boat markets... ANy boat boneyards in the midwest? A thumpin mountain motored 4cyl would be great for an MG Midget project I got sittin in the garage.. THX Mike V SMOOTH? "We don't need no stinkin smooth" > So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying > to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on > converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. > Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. ------------------------------ From: ECMnut@xxx.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:30:34 EST Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Yikes....Where might one find one of these on the CHEAP? Thnx Mike V > you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 > this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 > > you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( SCJ 429) > or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head > > I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:35:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw - -----Original Message----- From: Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw OK, but a 1-2 HP electric motor is alot of weight, no?. Then the waterpump coupling (mechanial/coolant), and pump itself. Now a hydralic pump is another matter, since at low speed it's use could be shared with the power steering, or for running a supercharger off of hydralics. Bruce >> Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... >> (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions >> at 9,000 rpm). >> You might need 10-15 at idle.. >> Or am I missing something here >> Bruce > >no pressure head >it just moves the stuff around >probably a lot of power is not required >maybe 1-2 HP >Clive >> >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather >> >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over >> >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to >> >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those >> >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be >> >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran >> >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? >> >--steve ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:43:40 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! At 12:26 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >Where can you buy this stuff used? >It seems Mercriuser has all kinds of hybrids that are loosely based >on the automotive market...I was at a Good Guys type rod meet >20 years ago, and saw a bowtie trailer with all kinds of >"engines to be" in it... There was BBC V6, which was a >454 with the front two cylinders chopped off. >It was a 340 CID V6 with huge ports.. I wonder if it Sure it wasn't a GMC 305/350 V6? Was in the early 60's and used the same block for the diesel version... basically a diesel that was modified on gasoline, not the other way around like the olds diesel etc. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:45:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... Guess I need to throw a new set of plugs in and do a high speed run and see what they say! How long of a high speed blast would be optimum for a plug read? At 12:02 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: David A. Cooley >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 10:45 AM >Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... > > >No, the oem gm O2 sensor in you car is not temperature compensated. >Period.. So the reading change by EGT. This is not the proper way to do >it. >Bruce =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:59:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, steve ravet wrote: > So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying > to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on > converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. > Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. > IIRC, this 4 banger is a mercury block with a 460 Ford head on it. ------------------------------ From: rr Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:51:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump OK, got some time to do some testing, not everything that I wanted to do, but enough to set started. First some numbers, then the setup. (this is regarding the pump listed below) No-load amps @xxx.3A (pumping air) Free flow amps @xxx.8A (pumping mineral spirits, aka paint thinner) 15 psi head pressure amps @xxx.0A (pumping mineral spirits against regulator) Free flow volume: 1 gallon (US) mineral spirits in 1-min 26-sec., for a flow of 41.9 gal-per-hr (GPH). Remember, that this is different than what the flow will be with gasoline. I was going to do flow testing with gasoline and various input voltages, but my setup was a little leaky. I was using as GM TBI injector head for the regulator and spray pattern checking of some injectors. With the leaks, no way was I going to run gas though the system. I also wanted to check the flow with the 15psi of head pressure, but the seals in the TBI head leaked. I'll be doing this once the TBI is fully assembled with new seals and on the car. This will then include the flow drop from the lines and fuel filter. Oh, one more thing. The pump inlet and outlets are 5/16" OD. They are the type used with the Ford plastic fuel line with 'quick-clip' connectors. The outlet being a threaded fitting, steel, I'll be silver soldering an inverted flair fitting to it. The inlet, I'll just use rubber hose, as it's going to be at low pressure (neg actually). The pump runs smooth and quiet, more so than I expected. The mount has a clam-shell holder that has foam between it and the pump. The mount also has rubber insulators. BobR. Mike Pilkenton wrote: > > I'd be interested in your flow analysis Bob. I'm desperately looking for an > in-line fuel pump to use on my 3.1L GM V6 motor. Nothing high performance > but with my engine transplant project, I can't use a stock tank pump. This > Bosch pump sounds like it might work great. > > Mike P. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rr > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:55 AM > Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump > > >I pulled a Bosch pump off a Ford Bronco 4x4. It was located in the frame > >rail > >at about the drivers feet area. I understand that there is another pump > >in the tank to feed this one. A low pressure feeding the high pressure. > >Don't know what it had for an engine, as most of the truck was gone. > > > >The numbers from this pump are similar to yours: > > > >Bosch 9 580 810-002 > >12V 927(circled) 847-28 Made in USA > >E6EF-9350-AA 8G28 > > > >I've a feeling that some of these numbers are lot #'s, plant #'s, > >line #'s and/or date codes. > > > >It has a threaded outlet and a formed inlet. I'll be doing a flow > >test on it soon. When that's done, I'll post the info. > > > >HTH > > > >BobR. > > > > - -- ------------------------------ From: rr Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:48:46 -0800 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Actually, fuel should be used. Any difference in viscosity will change the actual flow rate. I recently used mineral spirits for testing, as it is safer. (Please see my other post). I was more interested in checking the injectors, adjusting the regulator and checking the fuel pump's well being. There are two flow rates that are of interest: A free flow rate, which is just the pump running full bore with no restrictions. There is a list of pumps on the GN site that lists them this way. The second is more meaningful: This is the rate against the head pressure of a regulator. On a TBI system, this runs at 9-13psi (I'm using 15psi). On a port system, this runs about 43psi (varies in practice). At this higher pressure, the flow will be less. Once I have an installed and sealed up fuel system, I'll be doing a test of the second above. I'll also check it at 12v and 18v, just to see how much more fuel gets pumped by boosting the volts. I'll run the pump from a power supply, and measure the flow from the return line out of the TBI. BobR. Clarence Wood wrote: > > Thanks! Sounds like the same type pump. The circular number on mine is 014 and > it has made in Germany. > If you have time, could you tell me how you flow test a FP? Do you need to use fuel, > or is water or some other liquid safe to use? > ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:11:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > > OK, but a 1-2 HP electric motor is alot of weight, no?. > Then the waterpump coupling (mechanial/coolant), and pump itself. > Now a hydralic pump is another matter, since at low speed it's use could be > shared with the power steering, or for running a supercharger off of > hydralics. > Bruce I would go hydraulic as well best use of power, less conversion loss and not depending on electrics to move your coolant still mode for failure but not as bad as electrics, at least hydraulics give you a warnign as the motor wears out Clive > > >> Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... > >> (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions > >> at 9,000 rpm). > >> You might need 10-15 at idle.. > >> Or am I missing something here > >> Bruce > > > >no pressure head > >it just moves the stuff around > >probably a lot of power is not required > >maybe 1-2 HP > >Clive > >> >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather > >> >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over > >> >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to > >> >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those > >> >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be > >> >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran > >> >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? > >> >--steve > > ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:06:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, David A. Cooley wrote: > Sure it wasn't a GMC 305/350 V6? Was in the early 60's and used the same > block for the diesel version... basically a diesel that was modified on > gasoline, not the other way around like the olds diesel etc. The old GMC V6 engine family started out as gaspots. Later on they were converted to diesel and also V8 to go with the twin six V12. The diesels were called "Toroflows" by the General and "terribleflows" by those lucky enough to own or work on them. I think Chef Boyardee designed the crankshaft for the V8... ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:13:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > > Yikes....Where might one find one of these on the CHEAP? > Thnx > Mike V any wrecking yard that has late 60s early 70 Lincolns amd larg Ford/Mercs Clive > > > you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 > > this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 > > > > you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( SCJ 429) > > or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head > > > > I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:07:15 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 > > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. > > > IIRC, this 4 banger is a mercury block with a 460 Ford head on it. I volunteer to test this motor for you in a turbocharged fashion. Please ship the entire running engine, on an engine stand (mine's full with a B block), in a wooden crate to: LOL - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "soren" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:13:20 -0800 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea >As you can see from my tagline, I still firmly believe the >best mufflers are a pair of properly sized turbochargers :) > Fred's turbo as muffler idea, is good, with one downside. While the >pulsations are all broken up they are loud, and easily fail any deciometer >(?) test. - ------------- From a CHP information bulletin pertaining to exhaust noise (you can read it at www.vfaq.com/BADSM/CHP-Exhaust.html ) "Section 27150 requires that every motor vehicle subject to registration be equipped with an adequate muffler- There are no exceptions -- all vehicles must be equipped with a muffler as defined in Section 425 VC. A turbocharger is not considered a muffler. " Sorry dude, at least as far as california is concerned your turbos are not mufflers even if they act to muffle the exhaust. Soren ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:15:25 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! At 10:06 AM 3/14/99 -0800, you wrote: > >The old GMC V6 engine family started out as gaspots. Later on they were >converted to diesel and also V8 to go with the twin six V12. The diesels >were called "Toroflows" by the General and "terribleflows" by those lucky >enough to own or work on them. I think Chef Boyardee designed the >crankshaft for the V8... > I know they were sure built heavy... My dad had a 63 GMC pickup with the 305 V6 and the 4 speed... Got 9MPG loaded, empty, uphill, downhill etc. He removed the 1bbl carb and put on a staged 2bbl hoping to improve mileage... no luck. Had one hell of a lot of torque down low... I remember driving the truck, and being the lazy kid I was, I hated to shift... took off from a dead stop in 3rd with minimal clutch slippage... truck would lurch forward, and go chug chug chug but get right up to speed. Could tow almost anything you wanted to throw at it. Pistons the size of coffee cans. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:16:04 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! At 10:06 AM 3/14/99 -0800, you wrote: > >The old GMC V6 engine family started out as gaspots. Later on they were >converted to diesel and also V8 to go with the twin six V12. The diesels >were called "Toroflows" by the General and "terribleflows" by those lucky >enough to own or work on them. I think Chef Boyardee designed the >crankshaft for the V8... Any HP or torque specs on the V6 gas monsters? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:26:50 -0700 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! >So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying >to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on >converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. >Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big >block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 >cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. > >Can anyone help me figure this out? Here's some other info I found: >Model #: MCM470 >disp: 224 CID 4cyl >170 HP > >The dist and the oil filter are both on the right/starboard front of the >engine, the filter is horizontal. What is it??? I had never heard of a "sawed in half" 385 series Ford motor (370/429/460), but it sure sounds like that is what you've got!! I wonder if it has a balance shaft or shafts?? Greg > >--steve > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:56:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: exhaust system idea > read it at www.vfaq.com/BADSM/CHP-Exhaust.html ) > > "Section 27150 requires that every motor vehicle subject to registration be > equipped with an adequate muffler- There are no exceptions -- all vehicles > must be equipped with a muffler as defined in Section 425 VC. A turbocharger > is not considered a muffler. " some of the industral turbos have muffler cast into the ex impeller housing Clive > > Sorry dude, at least as far as california is concerned your turbos are not > mufflers even if they act to muffle the exhaust. > > Soren > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:14:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... - -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... Not have to be new. Pull a couple easy ones and see where your at. If evenly bone white, as compared to pure white, ya prolly can use those. Time ain't as important as load. So 15 secs in high gear, better than 15 secs from a stand still. This is a street machine, so you don't have to be as good as a NASCAR team. Quick braking to idle/stop, fine. If the plug has a different color then when you started you getting some reading. Using new plugs with the current fuels are/can be really hard to read, sometimes ya gotta put some miles on em for a good base for things to stick to. Bruce >Guess I need to throw a new set of plugs in and do a high speed run and see >what they say! >How long of a high speed blast would be optimum for a plug read? >>Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... >>No, the oem gm O2 sensor in you car is not temperature compensated. >>Period.. So the reading change by EGT. This is not the proper way to do >>it. >>Bruce ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #168 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".