DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 14 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 169 In this issue: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: exhaust system idea-Frederic Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Fuel tuning... Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: Fuel tuning... Re: exhaust system idea Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: exhaust system idea Re: Fuel tuning... Re: exhaust system idea Re: Re:hp loss Re: Off Panhard bar Re: exhaust system idea Re: Off Panhard bar Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Fuel tuning... Re: Off Panhard bar See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: steve ravet Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:12:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > OK, but a 1-2 HP electric motor is alot of weight, no?. > Then the waterpump coupling (mechanial/coolant), and pump itself. > Now a hydralic pump is another matter, since at low speed it's use could be > shared with the power steering, or for running a supercharger off of > hydralics. > Bruce Just FYI, Summit shows 4 electric water pumps, 2 race only and 2 that I guess are OK for street. 5.8 amps for the street one, 3.5 for the race pump. That's about 72 watts for the street pump, or about a tenth of a HP. 30-35 gpm flow, 9psi static pressure. They're real proud of them, at $260 for SBC. Can any mechanical guys speak up on if a constant rpm pump gains enough efficiency over a variable rpm pump to make up for the mechanical/electrical/mechanical conversion? - --steve > > >> Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... > >> (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions > >> at 9,000 rpm). > >> You might need 10-15 at idle.. > >> Or am I missing something here > >> Bruce > > > >no pressure head > >it just moves the stuff around > >probably a lot of power is not required > >maybe 1-2 HP > >Clive > >> >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather > >> >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over > >> >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to > >> >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those > >> >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be > >> >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran > >> >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? > >> >--steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:14:54 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 > > > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. > > > > > IIRC, this 4 banger is a mercury block with a 460 Ford head on it. > > I volunteer to test this motor for you in a turbocharged > fashion. Please ship the entire running engine, on an > engine stand (mine's full with a B block), in a wooden crate > to: Fred, I've read about your turbocharger tests. 5000 giga-hp from my boat engine doesn't do me any good if it doesn't last long enough to pull a skier up, and if I have to wear a kevlar vest to protect myself from flying pieces. - --steve > > LOL > > -- > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com > 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental > 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) > 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:23:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >Greg Hermann wrote: >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: steve ravet >> >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >> >Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:50 PM >> >Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >> > >> >The reason water pumps are such a large HP lose is cause they need to be. >> >You >> >can slow em down some, and in some applications take em out. But, for a >> >street motor, >> >they is what they is. >> > For you to have an electric motor pump as much as an oem waterpump you'd, >> >have to have a >> >big a----- motor/pump to replace it. >> > For fast warm ups use a recirculating thermostat >> >Bruce >> >> Bruce is right on this, completely. (Or is it one of the little guys?) >> >> There is even a good debate possible as to whether a high pressure fuel >> pump should be electrically or mechanically driven, let alone a water pump, >> or an engine fan (if you are working an engine any kind of hard at low >> speeds for any length of time)! >> >> For any sizable auxiliary drive loads, a mechanical drive is way more >> efficient than an electrical one. >> >> Regards, Greg > >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? Well--for the water pump and hp fuel pump and fan, generally the demand for coolant/fuel / air flow is pretty much proportional to engine speed, so IMO, no. In fact, I think you are better off with those three accessories spinning at a speed which varies with engine rpm! An excellent way to reduce the HP used by an engine (belt) driven cooling fan is precisely the way that heavy trucks do it: use a good tight fan shroud and thermostatically operated shutters in front of the radiator! When the shutters are closed, the fan does not move much air at all, and the fan HP drops WAY off!! Take a peek at some fan and centrifugal pump curves--HP goes up as flow volume goes up, out on the far right part of the curve, drops off at the high head, low flow portion of the curve. For the power steering pump, I suspect that a variable displacement, vane type pump (or swash plate type variable displacement pump, if you wish) would give the variability you want for less weight, more simplicity, and greater overall efficiency than an electric drive. There are variable displacement refrigeration compressors available (usually screw type), but, and this one is based on having done some serious refrigeration design work, I think the simplest solution to the AC compressor would be to run a regulator valve on the suction line (known as an evaporator pressure regulator in the trade). One of these valves gives you modulating control over the compressor capacity, rather than just bang-bang, on/off control, just by letting the low side pressure to the compressor drop well below the pressure in the evaporator (thus reducing the compressor's VE. under light load and/or high compressor speed conditions) Electric cooling fans are acceptable on cars only because cars in regular service rarely, if ever, see high engine loads for any length of time at low vehicle speeds--as Gary pointed out, taxis and cop cars are different, cuzza the amount of idling they do (and the amount of auxiliary equipment they have working when idling). But for any kind of towing or heavy vehicle--you can get sustained heavy loads on the engine at low vehicle speeds--where forward motion of the vehicle is insufficient to move an adequate volume of air over the radiator. And electric fans (of the sort commonly used in cars) are totally inadequate to move the needed amount of air. Consider the size of the cooling fans used on heavy equipment--where vehicle speed is no factor at all in moving air over the radiator. Even better--consider the size (and type of drive used) on the cooling fans used for big stationary engines--where there is no air movement, other than what the fan makes. And where weight and first cost are both thoroughly subordinate factors to minimizing bsfc and maximizing reliability! Plus--most of these engines have a 460v (or more) 3 ph. generator coupled to their output shaft, so making the juice to drive the cooling fan electrically would be already taken care of, if it were advantageous! Regards, Greg > >--steve > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:21:51 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying > > to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on > > converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. > > Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big > > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 > > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. > > you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 > this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 Is that an automotive engine, or a Mercury custom? What car applications did it come in? Thanks for all the quick responses, guys, but.... What are all you nerds doing inside on the computer on a Sunday afternoon?!?!? har har har - --steve > > you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( SCJ 429) > or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head > > I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit > > Clive > > > > Can anyone help me figure this out? Here's some other info I found: > > Model #: MCM470 > > disp: 224 CID 4cyl > > 170 HP > > > > The dist and the oil filter are both on the right/starboard front of the > > engine, the filter is horizontal. What is it??? > > > > --steve > > > > -- > > Steve Ravet > > ARM, INC > > steve.ravet@xxx.com > > www.arm.com - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:38:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >-----Original Message----- >From: steve ravet >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 11:32 AM >Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > > >Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... >(I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions >at 9,000 rpm). >You might need 10-15 at idle.. >Or am I missing something here >Bruce No, you are not. Looking at some pump curves here. A pump with a 2" D. inlet and outlet, 5" D. impeller. at 1800 rpm, will flow 80 GPM, make 20 feet of head, and use .66HP. Same pump at 3600 rpm will flow 150 GPM while making 82 feet of head, and use 4.5 HP to do it. (All numbers are for pumping H2O.) This is not too far off the size of a water pump for a SBC, but prolly is a curve for a BUNCH more efficient pump design than what is in a Chebby. But definitely good order of magnitude numbers for a pump in this size range. I have no desire to have a 3HP (min) electric motor hanging off of the front of my engine to drive the water pump! Regards, Greg >> >>But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather >>than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over >>a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to >>work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those >>were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be >>more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran >>the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? >>--steve ------------------------------ From: justin w ivan und stnt Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:43:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: exhaust system idea-Frederic I would like to hear the discussion as I am going the way of turbo too. On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, xwiredtva@xxx.com wrote: > Hello Frederic, > Could use please contact me off-list. I have a few questions concerning > turbocharging I'd like to ask ya, unless the rest of the list doesn't mind > and has something to contribute that could help me. Xwiredtva@xxx.com > -Todd > > > >> Called cutouts, usually illegal. > >> If ya get caught with them it goes on your permanent file.. > >> Some cops judges really don't like em. > > > >As you can see from my tagline, I still firmly believe the > >best mufflers are a pair of properly sized turbochargers :) > > > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser > >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com > >1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental > >1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV > >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) > >2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) > > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:46:30 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! - -----Original Message----- From: steve ravet To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 2:42 PM Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Waiting for the track to dry for the NASCAR race what else. Bruce > > >Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: >> >> > >> > So, I was crawling around my boat ('81 Phantom I/O) w/ Mercruiser trying >> > to find out what kind of motor is in there to give me some hints on >> > converting to EFI. I found a casting number on the head, D3VE-A2A. >> > Tried looking it up in altavista and guess what? I've got a Ford big >> > block in there! Don't know how they got 460 CID out of just 4 >> > cylinders. Or maybe I just missed the other 4 cylinders. >> >> you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 >> this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 > >Is that an automotive engine, or a Mercury custom? What car >applications did it come in? > >Thanks for all the quick responses, guys, but.... What are all you >nerds doing inside on the computer on a Sunday afternoon?!?!? > >har har har > >--steve > >> >> you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( SCJ 429) >> or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head >> >> I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit >> >> Clive >> > >> > Can anyone help me figure this out? Here's some other info I found: >> > Model #: MCM470 >> > disp: 224 CID 4cyl >> > 170 HP >> > >> > The dist and the oil filter are both on the right/starboard front of the >> > engine, the filter is horizontal. What is it??? >> > >> > --steve >> > >> > -- >> > Steve Ravet >> > ARM, INC >> > steve.ravet@xxx.com >> > www.arm.com > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com > ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:45:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... At 02:14 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: David A. Cooley >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:52 PM >Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... > >Not have to be new. Pull a couple easy ones and see where your at. If >evenly bone white, as compared to pure white, ya prolly can use those. Time >ain't as important as load. So 15 secs >in high gear, better than 15 secs from a stand still. This is a street >machine, so you don't have to be as good as a NASCAR team. Quick braking to >idle/stop, fine. If the plug has a different >color then when you started you getting some reading. > Using new plugs with the current fuels are/can be really hard to read, >sometimes ya gotta put some miles on em for a good base for things to stick Well, Looked at the plugs... they were bone white like they should be... Took off to get the car up to operating temp and made a long 50-100 blast up the freeway. Killed the ign and coasted to the offramp (goes right to a gas station at the end) coasted under the canopy and pulled the #1 plug... Looks very bone white with tiny brown/black fine speckles all down it... there is a faint brownish/black ring right at the end of the insulator where it ends and the center electrode comes out. Anything special I should be looking for? Thanks , Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:48:58 -0700 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! >At 12:26 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Where can you buy this stuff used? >>It seems Mercriuser has all kinds of hybrids that are loosely based >>on the automotive market...I was at a Good Guys type rod meet >>20 years ago, and saw a bowtie trailer with all kinds of >>"engines to be" in it... There was BBC V6, which was a >>454 with the front two cylinders chopped off. >>It was a 340 CID V6 with huge ports.. I wonder if it > >Sure it wasn't a GMC 305/350 V6? Was in the early 60's and used the same >block for the diesel version... basically a diesel that was modified on >gasoline, not the other way around like the olds diesel etc. Prolly was--but the really fun version of the GMC 351 V-6 was their 702 cid V-12!! :-) Greg >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. >=========================================================== ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:55:45 -0700 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! >> >> Yikes....Where might one find one of these on the CHEAP? >> Thnx >> Mike V > > >any wrecking yard that has late 60s early 70 Lincolns amd larg Ford/Mercs > >Clive >> >> > you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 >> > this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 >> > >> > you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( >>SCJ 429) >> > or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head >> > >> > I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit Well--the extra lobes wouldn't hurt, but the firing order would! ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:57:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump >Actually, fuel should be used. Any difference in viscosity will change >the >actual flow rate. I recently used mineral spirits for testing, as it is >safer. (Please see my other post). I was more interested in checking the >injectors, adjusting the regulator and checking the fuel pump's well >being. > >There are two flow rates that are of interest: A free flow rate, which >is >just the pump running full bore with no restrictions. There is a list of >pumps on the GN site that lists them this way. > >The second is more meaningful: This is the rate against the head >pressure >of a regulator. On a TBI system, this runs at 9-13psi (I'm using 15psi). >On a port system, this runs about 43psi (varies in practice). At this >higher pressure, the flow will be less. > >Once I have an installed and sealed up fuel system, I'll be doing a test >of the second above. I'll also check it at 12v and 18v, just to see how >much more fuel gets pumped by boosting the volts. I'll run the pump from >a power supply, and measure the flow from the return line out of the >TBI. > >BobR. Most injector tests are run using Stoddard (safety) Solvent. Greg > >Clarence Wood wrote: >> >> Thanks! Sounds like the same type pump. The circular number on mine >>is 014 and >> it has made in Germany. >> If you have time, could you tell me how you flow test a FP? Do you >>need to use fuel, >> or is water or some other liquid safe to use? >> ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:07:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... - -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... Well, the bone white is OK for a low po application, The flecks might be a indication of detonation, so first try less timing.. The brown area, is the fire band, your descriptions of the black might be carbon deposits flaking off. Might try seeing where the timing is during cruise, might be having a trace detonation problem. These are the areas/problems with using acoustic knock sensors, and why I harp about trying to get Ion going again. Bruce >Looked at the plugs... they were bone white like they should be... >Took off to get the car up to operating temp and made a long 50-100 blast >up the freeway. Killed the ign and coasted to the offramp (goes right to a >gas station at the end) coasted under the canopy and pulled the #1 plug... > Looks very bone white with tiny brown/black fine speckles all down it... >there is a faint brownish/black ring right at the end of the insulator >where it ends and the center electrode comes out. >Anything special I should be looking for? >Thanks , >Dave > >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. >=========================================================== > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:06:12 -0700 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea >> read it at www.vfaq.com/BADSM/CHP-Exhaust.html ) >> >> "Section 27150 requires that every motor vehicle subject to registration be >> equipped with an adequate muffler- There are no exceptions -- all vehicles >> must be equipped with a muffler as defined in Section 425 VC. A turbocharger >> is not considered a muffler. " Key word in this is "adequate"--If you are quiet enough, it must be "adequate". Greg > > >some of the industral turbos have muffler cast into the ex impeller housing > >Clive >> >> Sorry dude, at least as far as california is concerned your turbos are not >> mufflers even if they act to muffle the exhaust. >> >> Soren >> >> ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:08:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >Bruce Plecan wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:25 PM >> Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >> >> OK, but a 1-2 HP electric motor is alot of weight, no?. >> Then the waterpump coupling (mechanial/coolant), and pump itself. >> Now a hydralic pump is another matter, since at low speed it's use could be >> shared with the power steering, or for running a supercharger off of >> hydralics. >> Bruce > >Just FYI, Summit shows 4 electric water pumps, 2 race only and 2 that I >guess are OK for street. 5.8 amps for the street one, 3.5 for the race >pump. That's about 72 watts for the street pump, or about a tenth of a >HP. 30-35 gpm flow, 9psi static pressure. They're real proud of them, >at $260 for SBC. > >Can any mechanical guys speak up on if a constant rpm pump gains enough >efficiency over a variable rpm pump to make up for the >mechanical/electrical/mechanical conversion? You still need more water flow AND head at higher engine speeds! Greg > >--steve > >> >> >> Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... >> >> (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions >> >> at 9,000 rpm). >> >> You might need 10-15 at idle.. >> >> Or am I missing something here >> >> Bruce >> > >> >no pressure head >> >it just moves the stuff around >> >probably a lot of power is not required >> >maybe 1-2 HP >> >Clive >> >> >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather >> >> >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over >> >> >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to >> >> >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those >> >> >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be >> >> >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran >> >> >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? >> >> >--steve > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:25:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > > >any wrecking yard that has late 60s early 70 Lincolns amd larg Ford/Mercs > > > >> > you have a 215/230 CU in made from 1/2 of a Ford 429/460 > >> > this engine also came ( very rare) as 1/2 of a Boss 429 > >> > > >> > you can get a lot more power by replacing the head with a D0OE-R ( > >>SCJ 429) > >> > or a D0VE-xxx 1970 460 head > >> > > >> > I would bet even the 460/429 cams will fit > > Well--the extra lobes wouldn't hurt, but the firing order would! there would be no extra lobes maybe the crank would be a flat 180% unit though so the cam might not work but I bet it would fit Clive ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:24:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw 80% efficiency in alternator and motor = 64% efficiency overall - nothing to write home about, and 80% is pretty good for either alt or electric motor. Hydraulic does not fare much better. ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:19:49 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > Fred, I've read about your turbocharger tests. 5000 giga-hp from my > boat engine doesn't do me any good if it doesn't last long enough to > pull a skier up, and if I have to wear a kevlar vest to protect myself > from flying pieces. But think how fast you could go for 30 minutes :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:20:36 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! >Thanks for all the quick responses, guys, but.... What are all you >nerds doing inside on the computer on a Sunday afternoon?!?!? Waiting for my buddy to show up so we can prime and paint his jeep frame to get it the hell out of my garage !!!! - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:17:46 -0500 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea Wasn't the original question about the concept of a variable back pressure exhaust system? I think the idea is great, low to mid rpm gets more backpressure, then as rpm's increase, backpressure decreases to none. That's where the open pipe idea came from. If this idea were coupled with a variable valve timing setup, it would allow the best performance through all rpm ranges. Of course, it's all shooting from the hip theories! Jim Yeagley 1996 Dodge Indy Ram See it and many others at: www.indyram.org 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:41:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... At 03:07 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Well, the bone white is OK for a low po application, >The flecks might be a indication of detonation, so first try less timing.. >The brown area, is the fire band, Ideally, where should the fire band be? >your descriptions of the black might be carbon deposits flaking off. >Might try seeing where the timing is during cruise, might be having a trace >detonation problem. Depending on speed, at 70MPH I see between 35 and 40 degrees advance at cruise... lower speeds around town, 23-30 degrees seems to be "normal" I normally run 93 octane in the car, and have minimal knock counts picked up by the sensor... > These are the areas/problems with using acoustic knock sensors, and why I >harp about trying to get Ion going again. >Bruce =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:47:18 -0500 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea > Wasn't the original question about the concept of a variable back pressure > exhaust system? I think the idea is great, low to mid rpm gets more > backpressure, then as rpm's increase, backpressure decreases to none. > That's where the open pipe idea came from. > > If this idea were coupled with a variable valve timing setup, it would allow > the best performance through all rpm ranges. Of course, it's all shooting > from the hip theories! Kinda like the RAVE valve on a SkiDoo 2 stroke ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:07:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Re:hp loss Yes. I have had good luck concocting my own axle lube using Mobil 1 and MoS2 powder. The moly prevents metal to metal contact when sliding velocity is low to zero and the low visc reduces friction at higher speeds. I wouldn't try it on an expensive hypoid setup for which I don't have spares laying around, though. Too chicken. 75W-90 is as low as I would try for those. 75W gear oil is not much thicker than normal engine oil. Gary Derian > >Well- a hypoid does have sliding contact between the gear teeth, where a >bevel, even a spiral bevel does not (all rolling tooth contact with these). >So there should be at least a LITTLE more friction in a hypoid. The sliding >contact is the whole reason why you need the EP additives in the gear oil >for hypoids. > >Greg ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:31:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Hi Joe, I would like to respond to your comments. Low roll centers, 2 to 4 inches above the road, are preferred, yes. The Rover DeDion does create a small amount of scrub. My comment about the RX-7 offset watts linkage was not to claim it was the same as the Alfa a-arm but to comment that offset locating devices, while maybe not optimal from a kinematic standpoint, could still work well. I don't know what you think I have not thought out. A 4 link does have wonderful flexibility for adjusting anti-squat. Angling two of the links creates a virtual a-arm (is this the Satchell Link ?) that laterally locates the rear axle. This is similar to the Alfa or Lotus but they used a real a-arm, not a virtual one. The problem with a Satchell Link is when the car leans in a corner, the links bind. On a road car with rubber bushings, it still all works. On a race car with solid joints, the 4 links, when viewed from above, must be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the car. A road car type 4 link, like GM, uses the links to locate the axle and resist axle torque. If rubber bushings are used to smooth the ride, wheel hop occurs in high powered cars. That is why it is better to use separate mechanisms to locate and to resist axle torque. Of the 6 degrees of freedom, moving along and rotating about the x,y and z axes, a suspension needs to fully constrain 5. For good ride, there should be some longitudinal compliance (the tire moves back when it hits a bump) all others constraints should be very rigid. A 4 link cannot provide this mix of rigid and compliant constraints. That is fine for a race car but not so good for a road car. Gary Derian > >I agree a solid axle has no jacking. However, a lower rear roll center will >make a car handle more consistently even with a solid axle. Given a choice, >I would opt for a low roll center. > >If the dead axle is allowed to change length, then the axle track dimension >(centerline of tire to centerline of other tire) changes with it. If the >axle track dimension changes then the tires scrub laterally. > >An a arm is not a Watts linkage. A Watts linkage resembles a Panhard bar >with a bellcrank in the center. The bellcrank should be attached to the >chassis and the two rods attached to either end of the axle. The rods are >parallel to the axle in their normal position. > >You haven't thought this out. With a four link you can vary the angle of the >upper and lower links realitive to each other in side view to vary the >location of the instant center. The distance from the instant center to axle >is the length of the effective arm the axle is attached to. This arm is >infinitely long when the links are parallel. Your trailing arm length is >12"? 18"? > >If I choose, I can place the instant center in side view on an imaginary >line from the contact point of the rear tire to the intersection of the >height of the center of gravity and the centerline of the front axle and >have 100% anti-squat. I will have more rear wheel traction for leaving at a >light or coming out of a turn and this means I can put more power to the >road. The only wheel hop problem I have with the four link is brake hop if I >make the effective arm length too short chasing too much anti-squat. > >Come to think of it, you could reverse the angle of the arms > >By the way, looked it up, this is called a Satchell Link. According to Herb >Adams in Chassis Engineering, the advantages of a Satchell are that it >provides considerable anti-squat with roll understeer and a low roll center. > > >Regards, > >Joe ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:46:24 -0500 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea Its a great idea. A few years ago I designed a muffler, like a turbo muffler, that had a butterfly in it. When closed, the exhaust passed through lots of perforated holes and was damped by 2 Helmholz resonators. When open, the exhaust went right through with minimal silencing. Mistubishi 3000's had a setup where the muffler outlet was partially constricted at part throttle to improve silencing. Gary Derian > >I occured to me yesterday to ask a basic question about exhaust systems. >Since it's an advantage to have staged throttle bodies (like in 4 barrel >carbs) why not do the same for an exhaust? I imagine such a system could >have a HUGE pipe between the header and the muffler and then two pipes >exiting the muffler and going out the back. However one would have a >butterfly valve in it and at low RPMs and low engine load it would be >closed. However at high RPM and/or high load it would open. This second >tube could even bypass the muffler to reduce back presure. OK, what am I >missing here? Are the gains too small to be worth it? This system could >be quiet most of the time and a screamer when you want/need it to be. > >cheers, >james > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:51:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar If the crank is on the chassis, the roll center moves up and down with suspension travel. Gary Derian >Why would it matter if crank on axle or chassis?. Or just for unsprung >weight, >differences. >Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:47:04 -0500 Subject: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Yes, please have the turbo discussion on the list, or at least include my address in any off list discussions. Jim Yeagley 1996 Dodge Indy Ram See it and many others at: www.indyram.org 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:08:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... - -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... >>The brown area, is the fire band, > >Ideally, where should the fire band be? Ideally at the top of the cone. But, that takes more timing CR, and racing fuel to do. You have to learn you engines sweet spot. It will tell ya when your there, in max HP, and greatest fuel economy, hence accurate testing. > >>your descriptions of the black might be carbon deposits flaking off. >>Might try seeing where the timing is during cruise, might be having a trace >>detonation problem. > >Depending on speed, at 70MPH I see between 35 and 40 degrees advance at >cruise... lower speeds around town, 23-30 degrees seems to be "normal" This got an AL head?. cruise might be a tad high (40), and cruise (low) of 23 low.. The 23 being low is for a cruise rpm of no less than about 1400, if you have one of the applications that can do a low cruise of say 1100 then 23 might be fine, just I usually don't deal with anything that can do that low of cruise rpm. > >I normally run 93 octane in the car, and have minimal knock counts picked >up by the sensor... IMHO, any sensed knock is to much > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:12:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar - -----Original Message----- From: Gary Derian To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar And I shall proudly uphold the honor of the Cone Shaped Hat Society. Geez,,,, only makes sense. Bruce >If the crank is on the chassis, the roll center moves up and down with >suspension travel. > >Gary Derian > >>Why would it matter if crank on axle or chassis?. Or just for unsprung >>weight, >>differences. >>Bruce > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #169 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".