DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 15 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 171 In this issue: Re: 4 cyl big block! Knock sensing Re: Bosch pump # Re: Knock sensing Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Re: exhaust system idea Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw BJYM and my modified BJYM is now online Re: exhaust system idea See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shannen Durphey Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:42:02 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Fred, I've read about your turbocharger tests. 5000 giga-hp from my > > boat engine doesn't do me any good if it doesn't last long enough to > > pull a skier up, and if I have to wear a kevlar vest to protect myself > > from flying pieces. > > But think how fast you could go for 30 minutes :) > > -- > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com > 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental > 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) > 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) Fred, I don't think there's a lake in New England big enough for you. Shannen ------------------------------ From: "Brian Franchuk" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:53:33 0000 Subject: Knock sensing I was wondering, has anyone out there built or knows of a way to detect knock via the ignition system? I think I saw an article on this once where the current flowing into the spark plug just after ignition can be used to detect knock and air/fuel ratios. Thanks Brian F. ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:20:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Bosch pump # On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Walter Sherwin wrote: > something like a 6AN or 8AN hose fitting seal. At 12 volts, the pump flows > 57 GPH(US) at 10 psig and 6 amps, falling to 37 GPH(US) at 100psig and 13 > amps. In between these two points the curve is almost a straight line. This is great info but does it really only drop 20 g/h over a 10 fold increase in presure? This is a huge increase in presure but not much of a change in flow rate. I'm surprised...that's all. jw ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:50:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensing - -----Original Message----- From: Brian Franchuk To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 11:57 PM Subject: Knock sensing Check the archives under Ion, lots of info. about it. SAAB been using it for 10 years, by measuring ionization. Bruce I was wondering, has anyone out there built or knows of a way to detect knock via the ignition system? I think I saw an article on this once where the current flowing into the spark plug just after ignition can be used to detect knock and air/fuel ratios. Thanks Brian F. ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:55:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >> >> There are variable displacement refrigeration compressors available >> (usually screw type), >GM uses V5 variable displacement compressor on many late model cars. Well--a variable displacement compressor is an even better deal than using an EPR valve! Greg ------------------------------ From: Doug Bazarnic Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:00:14 -0700 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e After numerous warnings/emails, I will NOT be posting my Master Tune sw. I was just on a rant and temporarly lost my head due to complete exhuastion from the tranny rebuild. :) Doug ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:26:35 -0500 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Hello. I guess my first post didn't make it through. Doug Bazarnic wrote: > > >>The main electrical connector that interconnects the engine wiring harness > >>to the transmission is not the same and there are different numbers of wires > >>used (I don't know what they are all used for). > > After reading the service manual, the main electrical connector on both > trannys is the same. Your manual isn't telling you all you need if it doesn't say that there have been 2 design connectors on the 4L80E, and while a unit for a 1994 + pickup will have the newest design connector, there are still transmissions in junkyards and overhaul shops with the old style part. >However, the 4L60E has 2 more wires than the 4L80E. > (The connector has lots of empty pin holes) The 4L80E also has a > secondary speed sensor unit, which would require running two wires up to > the computer, that my wiring harness doesn't have. > > >>There are two different PCM's that control the 4L80E. One comes on the > >>diesel engines and the other for the gas engines. > > > >Yes, and there is a third PCM for turbo diesels, too! Each is (totally) > >different and not interchangable. As well, there are two (at least) 4L80E > >transmissions, the early and the late models. The TCM/PCM is different for > >each, so that makes about five different TCM/PCM combinations! > Forget the TCMs and the diesel PCM. In GM's listing of calibrations for a 1995 1/2 ton 2wd GM pickup, 5.7l and 4l60E, it shows a part number 16156395 computer. Then it says that part no is superceded by part no. 16197427. Looking up a 3/4 ton GM 2wd pickup w/5.7l and 4l60E, finds the computer part no is 16156930, superceded by part no 16197427. And looking up 1995 3/4 ton GM 2wd pickup, 5.7l and 4l80E, shows the PCM part no 16197427, and notes that number replaces part no 16156395 and 16156930 computers. When looking up your calibration, BJYM/0102, I again find the remanufactured ECM# is 16197427, which replace part no 16156930 and 16156395. So to be absolutely certain, beyond any doubt, that you have a pcm which will work with both transmissions, get the #16197427 part. > That was my next question. After comparing pinouts on the 4L80E equipped > computer vs my 4L60E equppied computer, the 4L80E has perhaps 2 wires > different, and the addition of 2 more, where my harness has "empty" spots > on the connector. So, are the computers really different, or do they just > not hook up the wires that would go to it? I know the calpak would be > different, Can you use the 2 "extra" wires to connect the "extra" trans speed sensor? >and perhaps that's the only difference?!? Would they really > make different computers for such a slight change and not enable/disable > via sw? Sometimes GM does things we mere mortals find stupefying. Doesn't look that way this time, though. > > >>The 4L80E uses a different flywheel and torque converter. I'm not sure > > >>whether the crankshaft end would need to be reworked to mate to the 4L80E. > > The 4L80E would require a different torque converter from my 4L60E, but > that's not a problem, as I don't use the stock converter anyway and would > buy a higher stall after market unit. Is there one available? This trans originally comes with a twin stator converter, plus TCC. The THM400 converter is not a direct replacement for this transmission. > The flexplate is engine dependent > and not tranny dependent. I'm not running the one piece real seal > crank/block anyway, but a gorgeous Cola Crank with a 4 bolt splayed cap block. > Well, there are 3 additional converter mounting bolts. If you are comfortable leaving them out, or have enough material on your flywheel to drill 3 more holes, you're set. Of course an aftermarket converter may not use all six. > >>The transmissions are different lengths which would necessitate a change of > >>your drive shaft. > > > >And probably rear mounting bracket, too. > > The hardware to mount the tranny is of little concern as I consider that > the easy part. I'm just worried about the computer crap. Mainly because > I've gone thru about 150 eprom burns to get my engine dialed in to my liking. > Even if the calibration would operate both transmissions, I'd bet you'd be burning more Eproms. In addition to the added inertia of the larger trans, the gear ratios are not the same. 4L60E 4L80E 1st 3.06 2.42 2nd 1.63 1.42 3rd 1.00 1.00 4th .70 .75 rev 2.08 2.29 > >I'm sure a swap is a good idea. I'd contact JET and see what they have for > >kits--they sell a complete kit, TCM, 4L80E, harness, etc. Might be just the > >trick to get you going. > > I'm not sure how I could fool my stock computer into thinking there's no > tranny hooked up if I were to use an aftermarket kit. This would be a step backwars IMHO, but could be done by using an ECM from a 1986-92 pickup with auto trans. Then you're back to the chip burning issue. > > If I have to buy a new computer, I'd assume I'd want one for a '95 with a > 350 and a 4L80e. See above. > > Some people have asked my for my BJYM code, and I'd be more than happy to > share it. I can also post my current code that I'm running with my engine > setup. Yes, please do. I have a base calibration for a 350/4L80E trans that I will trade/post. It will take me a few days, maybe couple of weeks, to get it up there. I have to pick up the PCM and build an adapter for my burner. > Finding the original BJYM code will be a task, but I can upload my current > config asap -- just tell me where. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ > Also, not sure if I should post the > MasterTune sw or not? (good/bad?) Not a good idea to post copyrighted software here. Been bad experiences in the past. > > > Thanks for all your help, Not a problem. With two calibrations, 4L60E and 4L80E, we may be able to find some easy answers. Shannen > > Doug Bazarnic > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:58:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Yeah, was looking for a book with info. Seem to remember something about high side pressure acting on a plate that effectively reduces the size if the cylinders. Pretty vague. If you're curious I'll see if I can dig something up tomorrow. It's 2 am and I've got an interview at 9. Shannen Greg Hermann wrote: > > >> > >> There are variable displacement refrigeration compressors available > >> (usually screw type), > >GM uses V5 variable displacement compressor on many late model cars. > > Well--a variable displacement compressor is an even better deal than using > an EPR valve! > > Greg ------------------------------ From: "Ferman C. Lao" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:10:56 +0800 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Me, too. - -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:25 AM Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion >At 03:47 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Yes, please have the turbo discussion on the list, or at least include my >>address in any off list discussions. > >I'll second that! > >Aaron Willis > ------------------------------ From: Roy Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:19:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Roy Spectric's wrote: Hi Reading these threads with interest, and must ask why are so many manufacturers now going over to electric power steering pumps, Peugot are using it in production and ford are looking into it if there are no advantages. With a cooling pump i would have thought it would have a much narrower speed range in which it is at it's most efficient compared to the engines rpm range. So if it was electric and it's speed independant of engine speed then it could operate more efficient. At continous high engine speed the average water pump is tending to aerate the coolant leading to cavitation. - ---Greg Hermann wrote: > > >Bruce Plecan wrote: > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 > >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:25 PM > >> Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw > >> > >> OK, but a 1-2 HP electric motor is alot of weight, no?. > >> Then the waterpump coupling (mechanial/coolant), and pump itself. > >> Now a hydralic pump is another matter, since at low speed it's use could be > >> shared with the power steering, or for running a supercharger off of > >> hydralics. > >> Bruce > > > >Just FYI, Summit shows 4 electric water pumps, 2 race only and 2 that I > >guess are OK for street. 5.8 amps for the street one, 3.5 for the race > >pump. That's about 72 watts for the street pump, or about a tenth of a > >HP. 30-35 gpm flow, 9psi static pressure. They're real proud of them, > >at $260 for SBC. > > > >Can any mechanical guys speak up on if a constant rpm pump gains enough > >efficiency over a variable rpm pump to make up for the > >mechanical/electrical/mechanical conversion? > > You still need more water flow AND head at higher engine speeds! > > Greg > > > >--steve > > > >> > >> >> Think about how much motor/pump it takes to do 100 GPM.... > >> >> (I'm guageing this on the 180 GPM Stewartcomponents mentions > >> >> at 9,000 rpm). > >> >> You might need 10-15 at idle.. > >> >> Or am I missing something here > >> >> Bruce > >> > > >> >no pressure head > >> >it just moves the stuff around > >> >probably a lot of power is not required > >> >maybe 1-2 HP > >> >Clive > >> >> >But, isn't it inefficient to spin all those things at engine RPM rather > >> >> >than a constant RPM? Seems like a pump/compressor that has to work over > >> >> >a 10:1 input speed ratio wouldn't be as efficient as one designed to > >> >> >work at a constant RPM. Like A/C, and esp power steering. If those > >> >> >were designed to run w/electric drive at constant RPM maybe they'd be > >> >> >more efficient. Especially if you had a dual voltage alternator and ran > >> >> >the accessories at 100V 3phase. maybe? > >> >> >--steve > > > >-- > >Steve Ravet > >ARM, INC > >steve.ravet@xxx.com > >www.arm.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Roy Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:27:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [M] Alterpower alternator charging control switch Roy Spectric's wrote: Hi all Ever heard of so called smart charging systems, well many european manufacturers are now going this way. The basic idea is that the engine management system either controls or influences the alternators charging characteristics. The intention is that during acceleration and high load demand on the engine the charging rate is reduced or turned off, on light load the charge rate can be at max to recharge the battery, or running a normal charge cycle. - ---"Clarence L.Snyder" wrote: > > > And, let's don't forget what 1 or 2 less volts will surely do to injector > > opening characteristics!! A hole inna piston will lose a lot more HP and $$ > > than a damn alternator shut-off will ever gain! > > > > Greg > > > True, but a properly designed EFI will compensate quite nicely - ever > hear of Peak and Hold injectors? They only require a fraction of the > available juice to operate reliably. Also, many saturated type injectors > run on 3 volts - the "ballast resistor" in the circuit absorbs the rest. > > That said, I still say this device is close to useless in the real > world. - whether street or track. > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Ferman C. Lao" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:54:42 +0800 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea Isn't this the same as the Shotgun or Shogun , forget what it's called exactly that's marketed by Nology? Looks like a butterfly valve on the end of an exhaust pipe. - -----Original Message----- From: xwiredtva@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:35 AM Subject: Re: exhaust system idea >DG Performance makes this type of muffler for 2 stroke Motocross bikes. If >you call and ask for a brochure or visit your local motorcycle shop they may >have the cutaway. Uses a spring and a metal valve mounted into the middle of >the muffler. As rpm's increase it pushes the metal disc back opening up the >muffler to a wider chamber were the exhaust can easily go around. I'm sure >it can be done for your applications and improved somewhat. I ran it when I >raced and it gave better low end but the top end was still the same. > > > >>Wasn't the original question about the concept of a variable back pressure >>exhaust system? I think the idea is great, low to mid rpm gets more >>backpressure, then as rpm's increase, backpressure decreases to none. >>That's where the open pipe idea came from. >> >>If this idea were coupled with a variable valve timing setup, it would >allow >>the best performance through all rpm ranges. Of course, it's all shooting >>from the hip theories! >> >>Jim Yeagley >>1996 Dodge Indy Ram >>See it and many others at: www.indyram.org >>1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) >>webmaster@xxx.org >>jimyeagley@xxx.net >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ From: Doug Bazarnic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:33:40 -0700 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e >> After reading the service manual, the main electrical connector on both >> trannys is the same. > >Your manual isn't telling you all you need if it doesn't say that >there have been 2 design connectors on the 4L80E, and while a unit for >a 1994 + pickup will have the newest design connector, there are still >transmissions in junkyards and overhaul shops with the old style part. Ahh, I see. My manual is for my '95 truck, so therefore, they wouldn't mention the older part. :) >In GM's listing of calibrations for a 1995 1/2 ton 2wd GM pickup, 5.7l >and 4l60E, it shows a part number 16156395 computer. Then it says >that part no is superceded by part no. 16197427. Looking up a 3/4 ton >GM 2wd pickup w/5.7l and 4l60E, finds the computer part no is >16156930, superceded by part no 16197427. And looking up 1995 3/4 ton >GM 2wd pickup, 5.7l and 4l80E, shows the PCM part no 16197427, and >notes that number replaces part no 16156395 and 16156930 computers. >When looking up your calibration, BJYM/0102, I again find the >remanufactured ECM# is 16197427, which replace part no 16156930 and >16156395. So to be absolutely certain, beyond any doubt, that you >have a pcm which will work with both transmissions, get the #16197427 >part. Well I'll be dipped in sh*t! :) I replaced my ECM about two months ago trying to track down an injector problem and the replacement part # that's in my truck this very second is a 16197427! Man you are good! Where do you find this info? So, what is the proper calibration code for the 3/4 ton 5.7L w/4L80e & 3.73 rear gears? >> That was my next question. After comparing pinouts on the 4L80E equipped >> computer vs my 4L60E equppied computer, the 4L80E has perhaps 2 wires >> different, and the addition of 2 more, where my harness has "empty" spots >> on the connector. So, are the computers really different, or do they just >> not hook up the wires that would go to it? I know the calpak would be >> different, > >Can you use the 2 "extra" wires to connect the "extra" trans speed >sensor? Here are the differences that i see according to the pinout tables in my service manual: Pin 4l60e 4l80e B10 Cruise Signal NOT USED ** see note E2 3-2 cntrl solenoid NOT USED E10 TCC solenoid cntrl Idle speed actuator control (7.4 Liter only) F2 NOT USED Input Speed High F3 NOT USED Input Speed Low Okay, here's some details: the service manual lists, for these two (actually 3, as one is diesel) computers, one is labeled 4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L (C/K) 4L60E and the other is listed as 4.3L, 5.7L 7.4L (C/K) 4L80E. ** note: In the table of pinouts of the PCM, the 4L80E table shows B10 as not being used, however, the wiring diagram does indeed show it going to: Cruise Control Switch <- 396 Lt Blu / Blk It looks like I could yank E2 and move it to F2, and move E10 to F3 and I wont have to run any extra wires at all. The connectors on the tranny are as follows: Pin 4L60E 4L80E A 1-2 Shift 1-2 Shift B 2-3 Shift 2-3 Shift C Pressure Solen. High Pressure Solen. High D Pressure Solen. Low Pressure Solen. Low E Both Shift Slnd, TCC, and 3-2 high +12 volt ( ign. crank on) L Fluid Temp High Fluid Temp High M Fluid Temp Low Fluid Temp Low N Range signal A Range signal A P Range signal C Range signal C R Range signal B Range signal B S 3-2 Cntrl Solenoid Low TCC PWM Solenoid T TCC Solenoid (low) U TCC PWM Solenoid It looks like pin E is the same for both looking at the wiring diagram, as it's the +12 side on all the solenoids in both cases. It looks like U goes to S and the old S & T wires will become my Input speed low & high wires. >Is there one available? This trans originally comes with a twin >stator converter, plus TCC. The THM400 converter is not a direct >replacement for this transmission. Of course. I'll check with Hughes transmissions and see what kind of torque converters they have. Generally Allison torque converters have the 6 lugs for mating to the flex plate. >Well, there are 3 additional converter mounting bolts. If you are >comfortable leaving them out, or have enough material on your flywheel >to drill 3 more holes, you're set. Of course an aftermarket converter >may not use all six. They usually don't use all 6 because they're cheap bastards :) >Even if the calibration would operate both transmissions, I'd bet >you'd be burning more Eproms. In addition to the added inertia of the >larger trans, the gear ratios are not the same. > > 4L60E 4L80E >1st 3.06 2.42 >2nd 1.63 1.42 >3rd 1.00 1.00 >4th .70 .75 >rev 2.08 2.29 Depending on what the 4L80e will cost me, I may purchase a lower gear set for the tranny. Then again, I don't know if it's really necessary, as I can leave tracks from here to wazoo... :) I have a video of me leaving tracks over 85' long -- I can turn it into an .avi if you wanna see. One other concern: Where / how is the vehicle speed stored? I have 3.73 rear gears and I don't know if they figure vehicle speed via the ECM or gears in the tranny or what? Thanks for all your help, >Not a problem. With two calibrations, 4L60E and 4L80E, we may be able >to find some easy answers. If I knew the proper code, I'd be happy to go buy the calpak from the dealer so you can see the differences. For $30 or so, I could always use the extra calpak :) Doug Bazarnic ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:47:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw >Yeah, was looking for a book with info. Seem to remember something >about high side pressure acting on a plate that effectively reduces >the size if the cylinders. Pretty vague. If you're curious I'll see >if I can dig something up tomorrow. It's 2 am and I've got an >interview at 9. >Shannen Yeah--that would be interesting-- Thanks. And good luck with interview, if that's what is needed! Regards, Greg > >Greg Hermann wrote: >> >> >> >> >> There are variable displacement refrigeration compressors available >> >> (usually screw type), >> >GM uses V5 variable displacement compressor on many late model cars. >> >> Well--a variable displacement compressor is an even better deal than using >> an EPR valve! >> >> Greg ------------------------------ From: Doug Bazarnic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 02:11:09 -0700 Subject: BJYM and my modified BJYM is now online I've uploaded my BJYM code which is for a '95 Chevy 1/2 ton truck, 350 (5.7L), 4L60E, AC, 3.73 rear gears. My modified code contains mods for the following "enhancements". Replaced stock block with a 4 bolt splayed cap block Cola Crank Eagle Rods Ross Racing Pistons with 11.4:1 cr Total Seal Rings AirFlow Research 195 Heads w/2.05 and 1.88 valves Comp Cams Hydraulic Roller camshaft - .512 I & .532 E lift, 220 & 224 @ .050, 114 lobe sep B&M Power Charger 144 Super Charger making 9 lbs boost at the manifold Holley 610 cfm throttle body Fluid Dampr Doug Thorley Headders 3" Exhaust And a 4L60E that's on it's 3rd clutch set, 2nd Torque converter, and 2nd Input shaft and housing assembly in 42,800 miles. And to give you a better idea how I drive this thing, it's on its 3rd set of tires too. :) My modified chip has a 900 rpm idle, 6000 rpm shift points (or thereabouts), and quite a bit of timing. The fuel is whacky, as the B&M kit increases fuel pressure with boost, and the Map sensor rides in the 90-100% range 95% of the time. Things that I don't like about my chip: 1. Error code 32: EGR..... I don't have an EGR anymore, yet the SES light comes on daily to remind me that it still isn't there. 2. The over rich fuel condition on upshifting under full throttle. Problem comes from the high boost/fuel pressure, and I don't think it can be solved via ecm. 3. A choke setting that's too rich on startup. Enjoy! ------------------------------ From: "Pedro Haynes" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 05:30:07 -0400 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea - -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hermann To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:56 PM Subject: Re: exhaust system idea I wanted a set up where I could also have variable exhaust pressure. I wanted to race in a club but the car must have a certain dB range at 4500 rpm. My idea was to have an electronically controlled variable pressure exhaust. at 4500 rpm an rpm switch would switch on a solenoid which would reroute the exhaust. Like a lawyer you have to find loop holes. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #171 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".