DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 15 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 172 In this issue: Re: O2 sensor Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: exhaust system idea Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: exhaust system idea Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: Knock sensing Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: Bosch pump # Camshaft Selection Re: exhaust system idea Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Camshaft Selection RE: Camshaft Selection Re: Off Panhard bar RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) RE: O2 sensor Re: Camshaft Selection Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: Off Panhard bar RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:41:30 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 sensor Closed loop depends on more than the O2 sensor activity... it depends on time since start on some models, coolant temp, throttle position AND O2 sensor activity. When the O2 sensor is hot, it should be bouncing from lean to rich (low V to High V) several times a second... At idle it should be sending a voltage (But it can ONLY be monitored by a Digital meter with several Meg-Ohms per volt input impedance...an analog meter across it will ruin it!) At 08:23 PM 3/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >I have a question about how to tell when the computer is in closed >loop mode when a person doesn't have a scan tool. >I built one of the O2 sensor gauges using the LM3914 chip. What >should I be looking for to tell when closed loop is on? From what I >have read, I should see the gauge fluctuating several times a >second (or as close as the eye can tell). Also, with the O2 sensor >disconnected from the computer, the O2 sensor does not send a >voltage during idle even though it is a heated sensor. I find this >interesting. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:56:04 -0500 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Doug Bazarnic wrote: > If I knew the proper code, I'd be happy to go buy the calpak from the > dealer so you can see the differences. For $30 or so, I could always use > the extra calpak :) > > Doug Bazarnic > I'll have more answers later. For now, part no 16244933 is the most current calibration I show (roughly June,98) for the 4l80E, calibration code is BXSJ/4933. Dealer cost on those used to be around 40 bucks, IIRC. I believe my calibration is actually for a 93, based on some old e-mail I've sent, but I'll get it to be sure. Be neat to see what the difference is regarding the pressure control solenoid. Later, Shannen ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:59:26 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > Fred, I don't think there's a lake in New England big enough for you. > Shannen LOL. I used to own a seadoo water skiing boat which a friend and I "modified". It had a small inboard originally, which we cut into the boat and re-bonded fiberglass to make it stronger, as we needed to open up the back to facilitate a larger motor. I lucked out and bought a 8 cyl ford-based mercruiser, which was shoved in. Used to use it exclusively in Greenwood Lake area on the Greenwood Lake NY/WestMilford NJ border. Until I was kicked out for making huge wakes on a fishing lake. Was a big lake, and my water skiing friends liked skiing on the wakes. Purpose of wakes, right? However the fishermen along the lake sides in canoes weren't appreciative, though we made every reasonable attempt to stay in the middle of the lake as to avoid tipping anyone over. Those were the days :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:08:57 +0000 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea > I agree, I ran around town with open exhaust on my T04B 350 chevy with > no problems, just keep off the loud pedal. It sounded like a 59 Pontiac > in heat if you stepped down too hard. Tom S My 1981 460-powered crewcab had no mufflers, cats, anything. The headers fed straight pipes that went up between the bed and the cab to above the roof with these chrome caps that flap in the exhaust pressure, much like a semi. Extended the frame 2' and moved the bed back to facilitate the exhaust piping as well as the large diamond toolbox my friend welded together for me. The noise wasn't that unbearable, as it blew up rather than out, under, or back. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:09:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > Me, too. > >I'll second that! We have to have a discussion first LOL - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: "Peter D. Hipson" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:27:25 -0500 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Whoa, this is getting long... Bear with me... At 08:43 PM 3/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >I've got my tranny rebuilt and installed by around 3 o'clock Sunday >afternoon. $298 in parts and about a day and a half labor. What a pain >in the butt! > > >After reading the service manual, the main electrical connector on both >trannys is the same. However, the 4L60E has 2 more wires than the 4L80E. >(The connector has lots of empty pin holes) The 4L80E also has a >secondary speed sensor unit, which would require running two wires up to >the computer, that my wiring harness doesn't have. The second speed sensor is the TISS (Transmission Input Speed Sender). Rigging a cable would be trivial, connector (I've the GM P/N, it runs about $18) and a shieled single pair cable are all that's needed. > >That was my next question. After comparing pinouts on the 4L80E equipped >computer vs my 4L60E equppied computer, the 4L80E has perhaps 2 wires >different, and the addition of 2 more, where my harness has "empty" spots >on the connector. So, are the computers really different, or do they just >not hook up the wires that would go to it? The computer for the diesel is very different (different connectors). >I know the calpak would be >different, and perhaps that's the only difference?!? Would they really >make different computers for such a slight change and not enable/disable >via sw? > > >>>The 4L80E uses a different flywheel and torque converter. I'm not sure > >>>whether the crankshaft end would need to be reworked to mate to the 4L80E. > >The 4L80E would require a different torque converter from my 4L60E, but >that's not a problem, as I don't use the stock converter anyway and would >buy a higher stall after market unit. The flexplate is engine dependent >and not tranny dependent. I'm not running the one piece real seal >crank/block anyway, but a gorgeous Cola Crank with a 4 bolt splayed cap block. > > >The hardware to mount the tranny is of little concern as I consider that >the easy part. I'm just worried about the computer crap. Mainly because >I've gone thru about 150 eprom burns to get my engine dialed in to my liking. > > >I would rather have beefy parts, rather than one that lasts a year. I >found my old receipts and the last tranny build I had to do was on April >4th. Almost 1 year. If you guys would like me to take some pictures of >the parts that failed, and the clutch size differences, I think you'd be >amazed at what a piece of crap the 4L60e is. The 4L60e should NOT be in a >1/2 ton truck -- maybe a S10 or camaro, but defintely not in something heavy. > >As far as the costs for rebuild, all I have to pay for are the parts, as I >do the rebuilds myself. (Which is both good and bad sometimes -- good on >the wallet, bad as a pain in my ass! :) > > >I'm not sure how I could fool my stock computer into thinking there's no >tranny hooked up if I were to use an aftermarket kit. Use the code for a manual shift setup? That's what I'd do, if I were controlling the transmission with a second computer. > >If I have to buy a new computer, I'd assume I'd want one for a '95 with a >350 and a 4L80e. My current chip code was BJYM. I have massive changes >to the engine management part that I'd hate to do over. So, is it possible >to copy the engine calibration stuff over to a new chip via a range of >eprom addresses, and merge it with the tranny stuff? Should be possible. > >Some people have asked my for my BJYM code, and I'd be more than happy to >share it. I can also post my current code that I'm running with my engine >setup. I've done all my mods thru MasterTune software that's supposedly >specific to my chip, so I don't know how/what/where to modify stuff in hex >for different chips. > >Is there a master list somewhere that somone has compiled with hex >addresses so I know where to put stuff? Also, when I've tried editing in >the past, the chip wont run as I don't know how to compute the checksum -- >so I loaded my hex edited file in MasterTune and resaved it and it computed >the checksum for me. > > If anybody knows how to "hack" MasterTune to see if it will really do >all chips or what, I'd sure appreciate it. The software is in two parts, >engine and tranny. Before the sw can be used to look at your chip, you >must first put a "secret" code into your .bin file, as well as know the >secret 4 digit password, which makes for a pain in the ass when you haven't >used the sw in 6 months. > >Finding the original BJYM code will be a task, but I can upload my current >config asap -- just tell me where. Also, not sure if I should post the >MasterTune sw or not? (good/bad?) I paid nearly $600 for it, and if >someone could help modify it so it will do 4L80e stuff, I'd be more than >happy to upload it. > >Thanks for all your help, > >Doug Bazarnic > > > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:02:55 -0700 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Hermann >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:56 PM >Subject: Re: exhaust system idea > > >I wanted a set up where I could also have variable exhaust pressure. I >wanted to race in a club but the car must have a certain dB range at 4500 >rpm. My idea was to have an electronically controlled variable pressure >exhaust. at 4500 rpm an rpm switch would switch on a solenoid which would >reroute the exhaust. Like a lawyer you have to find loop holes. Isn't this kind of a case of the pot calling the kettle black, given what you want to do here??? :-) Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:57:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion >We have to have a discussion first LOL > Ok, I'll start! I was mulling around a little idea I had about my Pontiac. It's in the garage with no fenders, the 400 looks pretty bare, with no harness or plumbing. I have a spare (used) turbo sitting there from my old Mustang ('84 GT350, turbo4) and have been contemplating adding this along with efi. Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the pro's and con's yet. One thought was the need for some sort of "flapper" valve to avoid the small side disrupting the spooling up of the big side. A 2 into 1 Y, with a long flap in the transition area, that would effectively close off the big end at lower rpm, when the little guy was pumping away, then as boost built on the big side, it would force open the valve and provide big end juice. How about that? Food for thought, or brain fodder? Jim Yeagley 1996 Dodge Indy Ram See it and many others at: www.indyram.org 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:31:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Oh, I see. Don't forget to add baffling inside the tank or a separate surge tank outside. You will need it because EFI cannot handle momentary fuel starvation like a carb. Some just keep tank more than 1/2 full. Be very careful of fuel line routing and pump mounting. Try to think what would happen in a crash. Gary Derian >Nope, you don't understand. I'm transplanting the V6 into a 72 Opel GT >which has no in-tank pump. To use the stock Camaro in-tank pump would >require heavy modification of the tank and sending unit; an in-line version >of the pump would be much more convenient. > >Mike Pilkenton> > >>If you already have an in tank pump, just replace it with the correct >>version for your new engine. >> >>Gary Derian ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:47:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensing Check http://www.adrenalineresearch.com/smartfire.htm Gary Derian > >I was wondering, has anyone out there built or knows of a way to >detect knock via the ignition system? I think I saw an article on >this once where the current flowing into the spark plug just after >ignition can be used to detect knock and air/fuel ratios. > >Thanks > >Brian F. > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:42:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Electric water pumps (was) alt charging cont sw I believe the compressor has a variable pitch swash plate that is controlled by inlet suction, it will only suck so hard so it cuts back when the cooling load is low. There is no electronic interface. From a power consumption standpoint I don't think this is any better than cycling the compressor, but it does let the truck drive more smoothly. My old '89 Dodge minivan with the Mitsubishi V-6 had a similar compressor. Gary Derian >>Yeah, was looking for a book with info. Seem to remember something >>about high side pressure acting on a plate that effectively reduces >>the size if the cylinders. Pretty vague. If you're curious I'll see >>if I can dig something up tomorrow. It's 2 am and I've got an >>interview at 9. >>Shannen > >Yeah--that would be interesting-- > >Thanks. And good luck with interview, if that's what is needed! > >Regards, Greg >> >>Greg Hermann wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >> There are variable displacement refrigeration compressors available >>> >> (usually screw type), >>> >GM uses V5 variable displacement compressor on many late model cars. >>> >>> Well--a variable displacement compressor is an even better deal than using >>> an EPR valve! >>> >>> Greg > ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:33:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Well i happen to know how they get a 7730 hooked up to the 4bbl TBI. I also happen to have an eprom from just such a combination! Andy - ---cwagner@xxx.net wrote: > > Here is probably a simple question, but here we go. How would a > person go about adapting a Holley 4 barrel throttle body > injection(just the throttle body) to a 7747 computer? Would the > computer be enough to run the four injectors? I know Howell does > something like this but want to do it my self. > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:46:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Bosch pump # Thanks for the info Walt, but can you give me any info on Bosch 9 580 810 020? Physically it is just like the one you described. If you don't know, could you direct me to someplace/one who could help? At 09:18 PM 3/14/99 -0800, you wrote: snip >The largest capacity generic Bosch electric fuel pump is 0 580 254 984 (also >known as GFP 216). It can be used either as an "external-to-tank" pump, or >as an "internal-to-tank" pump. The inlet is approximately .5" diameter, and >is shaped as a slip-over hose nipple. The outlet is a 12mm female thread, >and houses an integral check valve. Most hydraulic shops carry adapters >which will screw into the outlet, and adapt the 12mm/copper washer seal to >something like a 6AN or 8AN hose fitting seal. At 12 volts, the pump flows >57 GPH(US) at 10 psig and 6 amps, falling to 37 GPH(US) at 100psig and 13 >amps. In between these two points the curve is almost a straight line. >There are other part numbers which share the same rollervane "pumping cell", >and will flow similar capacities, but they introduce idiosyncrasies >associated with their OE hookups and packaging requirements. > >Part number 0 580 254 023 is one such offshoot, that has an integral "open >filter bottom". This in-tank pump can double as a pump/filter combo unit. >However, the filter screen area is small (flat screen 60mm diameter, by >70microns fine), and CAN plug prematurely unless you either place a filter >screen in the vehicle's fuel filler neck, or maintain a very clean fuel >system. > >Hope that helped; >Walt. > > > IZCC #3426 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood@xxx.net Savannah, TN. ------------------------------ From: "Gwyn Reedy" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:15:02 -0500 Subject: Camshaft Selection I have the 402 BBC out of my 72 Cheyenne pickup torn down for a rebuild. Dang oil pump inlet fell off and the bearings got fed a mixture of oil and air... The engine is not very badly damaged. Taking the crank in today to see what it needs done to it, but it doesn't look very bad at all. The cam shows a lot of wear. Looks like the original cam with 70k miles on it. Some of the lifters are starting to get concave a bit too. The truck is used for running errands around town, and from time to time pulling a heavy trailer. The trailer is 6000 lbs empty and up to 14000 loaded. 3.08 posi rear end and THM-400. Wondering what cam to put in it. This is an oval port (passenger car type heads) with a low profile Quadrajet manifold, standard cast iron exhaust manifolds. Need low end torque, not horsepower. I'm wondering if any of these 'bottom-end torque for 4x4 off road use' cams might be a good choice or should I just put a replacement factory cam back in it? Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida mailto:mgr@xxx.com '72 Cheyenne half ton (driver) '69 El Camino SS396 (rebuilder) ------------------------------ From: "Xwiredtva" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:29:04 -0400 Subject: Re: exhaust system idea Not familiar with that type. The DG was a stationary valve, just moved back and forth about 1.5" to open the chamber up, the chamber was shapped like a bell. >Isn't this the same as the Shotgun or Shogun , forget what it's called >exactly that's marketed by Nology? Looks like a butterfly valve on the end >of an exhaust pipe. > > >>DG Performance makes this type of muffler for 2 stroke Motocross bikes. If >>you call and ask for a brochure or visit your local motorcycle shop they >may >>have the cutaway. Uses a spring and a metal valve mounted into the middle >of >>the muffler. As rpm's increase it pushes the metal disc back opening up the >>muffler to a wider chamber were the exhaust can easily go around. I'm sure >>it can be done for your applications and improved somewhat. I ran it when I >>raced and it gave better low end but the top end was still the same. >> >> >> >>>Wasn't the original question about the concept of a variable back pressure >>>exhaust system? I think the idea is great, low to mid rpm gets more >>>backpressure, then as rpm's increase, backpressure decreases to none. >>>That's where the open pipe idea came from. >>> >>>If this idea were coupled with a variable valve timing setup, it would >>allow >>>the best performance through all rpm ranges. Of course, it's all shooting >>>from the hip theories! >>> >>>Jim Yeagley >>>1996 Dodge Indy Ram >>>See it and many others at: www.indyram.org >>>1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) >>>webmaster@xxx.org >>>jimyeagley@xxx.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:52:00 +0000 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e > Finding the original BJYM code will be a task, but I can upload my current > config asap -- just tell me where. Also, not sure if I should post the > MasterTune sw or not? (good/bad?) I paid nearly $600 for it, and if > someone could help modify it so it will do 4L80e stuff, I'd be more than > happy to upload it. Go ahead and upload bins to the efi332 incoming directory via anonymous ftp. Give it a descriptive filename and then send a note to the list with both the filename and a description of what it is. efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu is the machine. As far as copying the mastertune software, it's up to you but ->don't<- upload it to the ftp site. We've already gotten in trouble with an Australian company that found a copy of their stuff on our ftp site. Too much trouble like that and OSU may decide to pull the plug. What ECM does your truck use? - --steve > > Thanks for all your help, > > Doug Bazarnic > - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:00:08 +0000 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e > The connectors on the tranny are as follows: > > Pin 4L60E 4L80E > A 1-2 Shift 1-2 Shift > B 2-3 Shift 2-3 Shift > C Pressure Solen. High Pressure Solen. High > D Pressure Solen. Low Pressure Solen. Low > E Both Shift Slnd, TCC, and 3-2 high +12 volt ( ign. crank on) > L Fluid Temp High Fluid Temp High > M Fluid Temp Low Fluid Temp Low > N Range signal A Range signal A > P Range signal C Range signal C > R Range signal B Range signal B > S 3-2 Cntrl Solenoid Low TCC PWM Solenoid > T TCC Solenoid (low) > U TCC PWM Solenoid > How complicated is it to drive these signals and make the transmission shift? Do you have to start with a GM ECM and go from there, or would it be feasible to build a little PIC based thing to run the transmission? What's the risk of burning up the transmission? - --steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:12:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion This has been done to make a small engine behave like a big one. Mazda RX-7 and Nissan Skyline GT-R or some such Japanese only homologation special. Since you already have a big one and can prolly spin your tires at will I don't think the complexity is worth it. Just put two turbos on it set for mid to high rpm. After all, the only time you are under 3000 rpm is in first gear, even with a Pontiac. SAAB uses a turbo on one bank of a V-6 for the whole engine. Gary Derian > >I was mulling around a little idea I had about my Pontiac. It's in the >garage with no fenders, the 400 looks pretty bare, with no harness or >plumbing. I have a spare (used) turbo sitting there from my old Mustang >('84 GT350, turbo4) and have been contemplating adding this along with efi. >Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the >variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo >driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on >the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the >pro's and con's yet. > >One thought was the need for some sort of "flapper" valve to avoid the >small side disrupting the spooling up of the big side. A 2 into 1 Y, with a >long flap in the transition area, that would effectively close off the big >end at lower rpm, when the little guy was pumping away, then as boost built >on the big side, it would force open the valve and provide big end juice. > >How about that? Food for thought, or brain fodder? > >Jim Yeagley >1996 Dodge Indy Ram >See it and many others at: www.indyram.org >1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) >webmaster@xxx.org >jimyeagley@xxx.net > > ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:24:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Camshaft Selection Gwyn Reedy wrote: > I have the 402 BBC out of my 72 Cheyenne pickup torn down for a rebuild. < SNIP > > The cam shows a lot of wear. Looks like the original cam with 70k miles on > it. Some of the lifters are starting to get concave a bit too. Lifter geometry in BBC is a problem - You might consider a modification to the block called "Lifter-Tru", which involves indexing off the shot-pin holes and the cam-crank centerline to locate where the lifter bores should be - They can then be bored for larger lifters, or bushed if necessary - I've seen offsets large enough to require a bushing. Having done this, lots of good roller profiles out there. I've had good luck with Comp Cams - Fit a grind that does'nt need a spring that looks like a suspension part and your valve train can outlast the engine, IMHO. Jack ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:36:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Camshaft Selection Gwyn, Asking what camshaft to use is like asking someone what wheel are the best. ha! I'm not familiar with the 4x4 cams you mentioned but any low end torque type use would probably work well including these cams. If you're looking in a cam catalog tend toward the high lift cams with wide centerlines (low valve overlap) and relatively low duration (under 260 @ 0.050). The very best advice is to call a reputable cam manufacturer (crane or whomever you prefer) and described your vehicle completely, engine displacement, heads, gearing (if you know it) tire type and sizes, etc. Then tell them what you want to do with the vehicle. Be honest. They'll give you the best cam for your application within their selections. good luck! rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Gwyn Reedy [SMTP:mgr@xxx.com] > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 10:15 AM > To: Sixties Truck List; DIY-EFI List; CK Series List; Chevelle List > Subject: Camshaft Selection > > I have the 402 BBC out of my 72 Cheyenne pickup torn down for a rebuild. > Dang oil pump inlet fell off and the bearings got fed a mixture of oil and > air... > > The engine is not very badly damaged. Taking the crank in today to see > what > it needs done to it, but it doesn't look very bad at all. > > The cam shows a lot of wear. Looks like the original cam with 70k miles on > it. Some of the lifters are starting to get concave a bit too. > > The truck is used for running errands around town, and from time to time > pulling a heavy trailer. The trailer is 6000 lbs empty and up to 14000 > loaded. 3.08 posi rear end and THM-400. > > Wondering what cam to put in it. This is an oval port (passenger car type > heads) with a low profile Quadrajet manifold, standard cast iron exhaust > manifolds. Need low end torque, not horsepower. > > I'm wondering if any of these 'bottom-end torque for 4x4 off road use' > cams > might be a good choice or should I just put a replacement factory cam back > in it? > > Gwyn Reedy > Brandon, Florida > mailto:mgr@xxx.com > '72 Cheyenne half ton (driver) > '69 El Camino SS396 (rebuilder) > ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:14:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Why do they need to have rubber joints? I've seen many a 4 wheeler with 4-link suspensions and don't have rubber anywhere. > >A four link rear suspension, where [two of] the links are [at] angles to > provide lateral > >location can only work if the links have rubber joints. Also the links have > >to locate the axle as well as control the torque. I missed the start of this thread, but now i am interested! What was the original post? What is the vehicle? Andy _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:36:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Chris. I think you missed the point, or else I failed to make it. The OEM testing runs 4 - 5K$, and this assumes passing on the first try. The end all be all is not a simple IM240 (gas station test) or what ever they require in your state. The IM240 test are designed to insure compliance with a much more rigorous standard. Obviously we cant expect Joe Lug Wrench to do the OEM tesing every state required period. Now armed with this information, there are several things you can do for increased performance, but you will need to think it out, not select the junk yard parts of convenience. I have sucesffly completed a 450Hp 94 "F" Car that is a 13 sec 1/4 miler it looks stock and passes, and a few trucks that are tire twisters. It can be done ! Ward > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Chris > Conlon > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 7:46 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) > > > At 02:19 PM 3/5/99 -0800, Ward Spoonemore wrote: > > >Of course you can sign up as a limited production car maker and start out > >with EPA 75 emissions testing, shed test etc. The EPA 75's are > $750 a pop. > > Could you please say a bit more about this, maybe toss out a URL or > something? I'd like to buy a modded car which has reasonably clean > emissions, but which won't pass a strict visual test, which we have > here. It might be worth $750 to me to be able to register it here... > > (Not to mention I have a real bad attitude about cars which are > squeaky clean out the tailpipe and gas tank failing due to visual tests > or "allowed" mods. So much so that it'd be worth $$$ to me just to > have such a car be fully legal.) > > Chris C. > ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:36:44 -0800 Subject: RE: O2 sensor > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of > cwagner@xxx.net > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 7:24 PM > To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu > Subject: O2 sensor > > > I have a question about how to tell when the computer is in closed > loop mode when a person doesn't have a scan tool. > I built one of the O2 sensor gauges using the LM3914 chip. What > should I be looking for to tell when closed loop is on? From what I > have read, I should see the gauge fluctuating several times a > second (or as close as the eye can tell). Also, with the O2 sensor > disconnected from the computer, the O2 sensor does not send a > voltage during idle even though it is a heated sensor. I find this > interesting. > There are only three reasons for no voltage at idle: 1. Its to cold at the sense point 2. the o2 sensor is sacked out (old) 3. It is actaul very lean at the sense point, (maybe air leak in the exhaust) normaly there is a very good reading at idle. Also there is a high impeadance 400 mvdc applied to the sensor. Ward ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:37:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Camshaft Selection I have a 402 BBC that i started to build (then i got a 454...) from a 1972 GMC pickup. I chose (and purchased) a compa cams xtreme energy cam. It is a dual-pattern cam that has like 262 intake and 272 exhaust duration. I cannot remember the lift, etc. but it is far from a lumpy cam. I have not installed the cam, so i don't know from experience. I don't know your budget, but you should get a set of doug-thorley headers and a nice aftermarket cam. Andy p.s. want to buy the cam and lifters? They're unused and clean! - ---Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > I have the 402 BBC out of my 72 Cheyenne pickup torn down for a rebuild. > Dang oil pump inlet fell off and the bearings got fed a mixture of oil and > air... > > The engine is not very badly damaged. Taking the crank in today to see what > it needs done to it, but it doesn't look very bad at all. > > The cam shows a lot of wear. Looks like the original cam with 70k miles on > it. Some of the lifters are starting to get concave a bit too. > > The truck is used for running errands around town, and from time to time > pulling a heavy trailer. The trailer is 6000 lbs empty and up to 14000 > loaded. 3.08 posi rear end and THM-400. > > Wondering what cam to put in it. This is an oval port (passenger car type > heads) with a low profile Quadrajet manifold, standard cast iron exhaust > manifolds. Need low end torque, not horsepower. > > I'm wondering if any of these 'bottom-end torque for 4x4 off road use' cams > might be a good choice or should I just put a replacement factory cam back > in it? > > Gwyn Reedy > Brandon, Florida > mailto:mgr@xxx.com > '72 Cheyenne half ton (driver) > '69 El Camino SS396 (rebuilder) > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cwagner@xxx.net Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:44:30 -0700 Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Date sent: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:33:19 -0800 (PST) From: andy quaas Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Send reply to: diy_efi@xxx.edu If that works better I do have a 7730 to use but I do not have the prom carrier to put the prom in. Any ideas? > Well i happen to know how they get a 7730 hooked up to the 4bbl TBI. > I also happen to have an eprom from just such a combination! > > Andy > > > ---cwagner@xxx.net wrote: > > > > Here is probably a simple question, but here we go. How would a > > person go about adapting a Holley 4 barrel throttle body > > injection(just the throttle body) to a 7747 computer? Would the > > computer be enough to run the four injectors? I know Howell does > > something like this but want to do it my self. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:11:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar There was a general discussion of rear suspension design. My point was that a 4 link, where two of the links are angled to provide lateral location will bind up when the car leans in a corner. One angled link will pull forward, the other will push rearward. The amount is small but it is there. With rubber bushings, it works OK. This type of 4 link is popular on many US cars, notably GM intermediate and full size and Ford Fox chassis Mustangs and their siblings. Gary Derian >Why do they need to have rubber joints? I've seen many a 4 wheeler >with 4-link suspensions and don't have rubber anywhere. > >> >A four link rear suspension, where [two of] the links are [at] >angles to >> provide lateral >> >location can only work if the links have rubber joints. Also the >links have >> >to locate the axle as well as control the torque. > >I missed the start of this thread, but now i am interested! What was >the original post? What is the vehicle? > >Andy ------------------------------ From: Chris Conlon Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:22:25 -0500 Subject: RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) At 09:36 AM 3/15/99 -0800, Ward Spoonemore wrote: >Chris. I think you missed the point, or else I failed to make it. The OEM >testing runs 4 - 5K$, and this assumes passing on the first try. > >The end all be all is not a simple IM240 (gas station test) or what ever >they require in your state. The IM240 test are designed to insure compliance >with a much more rigorous standard. Obviously we cant expect Joe Lug Wrench >to do the OEM tesing every state required period. I guess I did miss the point. I thought you were saying that a small company (me) could register as a limited-production car maker, and then produce a small # of cars (1, in this case) which would be tested against a relaxed standard. (Relaxed compared to the usual OE testing standards, probably still pretty tough compared to the tests it has to pass after someone owns it.) Mainly what I was looking for was a way for the car to be judged on the basis of what comes out (or does not come out) of the tailpipe, rather than what emissions hardware it does or does not have, or what mods it has. (And $1000 would not be too much to pay for the privilege, though $4000 is pushing it hard.) Chris C. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #172 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".