DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 15 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 173 In this issue: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump : Re: turbo discussion Off: Dave Hempstead's mail Re: Camshaft Selection Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion New Bible RE: exhaust system idea Re: Re: turbo discussion Re: Off Panhard bar Re: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: 4 cyl big block! Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 O2 sensor See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pjb@xxx.com (Pete Boggini) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:57:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Mike Pilkenton said: > >I'd be interested in your flow analysis Bob. I'm desperately looking for an >in-line fuel pump to use on my 3.1L GM V6 motor. Nothing high performance >but with my engine transplant project, I can't use a stock tank pump. This >Bosch pump sounds like it might work great. > >Mike P. Mike, Bob's pump sounds like the pump I have in my '65 Mustang. Its an Airtex E2000. I called Airtex when I was looking for a pump for my EFI conversion and they suggested this one. Its for mid '80's Ford cars and trucks. The specs I was told were 35-40 GPH and 90PSI. I just mounted it in front of the fuel tank and its seems to pump just fine w/o a in-tank pump. BTW, I think this is the same pump that Windsor Fox sells for their EFI conversions into old Mustangs. The difference is they charge $300.00 or so and this pump was less than $100.00. I think its because they actually go to Ford to buy the pump, not the aftermarket. Anyway, I'd recommend this pump, mine is feeding a stock '87 5.0 in my '65 Mustang. > >-----Original Message----- >From: rr >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:55 AM >Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump > > >>I pulled a Bosch pump off a Ford Bronco 4x4. It was located in the frame >>rail >>at about the drivers feet area. I understand that there is another pump >>in the tank to feed this one. A low pressure feeding the high pressure. >>Don't know what it had for an engine, as most of the truck was gone. >> >>The numbers from this pump are similar to yours: >> >>Bosch 9 580 810-002 >>12V 927(circled) 847-28 Made in USA >>E6EF-9350-AA 8G28 >> >>I've a feeling that some of these numbers are lot #'s, plant #'s, >>line #'s and/or date codes. >> >>It has a threaded outlet and a formed inlet. I'll be doing a flow >>test on it soon. When that's done, I'll post the info. >> peterb - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Boggini Systems Administrator/Corporate Operations E-mail: pjb@xxx.com Phone: (650)933-6858 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:08:16 -0800 Subject: : Re: turbo discussion <> SAAB also uses it (turbo) on an engine that is very similar to the VW VR6, in that it's a narrow angle V6 that shares a SINGLE cylinder head/valvetrain. Volvo has a similar turbo set-up. It's referred to as a "light pressure" set-up, when you use only one bank of cylinders to spool the turbo. Volvo uses it for their C70 model, for example. Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:09:31 -0500 Subject: Off: Dave Hempstead's mail Can anyone tell me how to read this e-mail without having to save it as a text file, then open it? I wonder if maybe my ISP isn't sending attachmants correctly, as any attachment file now shows up as "file.ext" or "mail", something I never saw with the previous ISP. Thanks Shannen ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:25:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Camshaft Selection Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > I have the 402 BBC out of my 72 Cheyenne pickup torn down for a rebuild. > Dang oil pump inlet fell off and the bearings got fed a mixture of oil and > air... > > The engine is not very badly damaged. Taking the crank in today to see what > it needs done to it, but it doesn't look very bad at all. > > The cam shows a lot of wear. Looks like the original cam with 70k miles on > it. Some of the lifters are starting to get concave a bit too. > > The truck is used for running errands around town, and from time to time > pulling a heavy trailer. The trailer is 6000 lbs empty and up to 14000 > loaded. 3.08 posi rear end and THM-400. > > Wondering what cam to put in it. This is an oval port (passenger car type > heads) with a low profile Quadrajet manifold, standard cast iron exhaust > manifolds. Need low end torque, not horsepower. > > I'm wondering if any of these 'bottom-end torque for 4x4 off road use' cams > might be a good choice or should I just put a replacement factory cam back > in it? > > Gwyn Reedy > Brandon, Florida > mailto:mgr@xxx.com > '72 Cheyenne half ton (driver) > '69 El Camino SS396 (rebuilder) Couple of things. Camshaft selection can be considered a dark art. Lots of general info available, but experience makes the best teacher. Also, as a comparison tool, computer dyno simulation software has really helped me out. I have used a Crane Compucam for _smallblock_ engines, "produces brute low end torque" (their words), with carb, and it works well, IMO. Computer cams should be designed to produce strong, steady vacuum readings, which is beneficial for fuel economy. You can download Comp Cams cam selection software for free if you like their parts. http://www.compcams.com/ Later. Shannen ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:46:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar The original post was mine. I was wondering about the effects of the panhard bar on the chassis, as it appeared that it would cause movement side to side as the suspension travelled. I asked about what I thought was a novel idea, only to get a novel's worth of replies that it's already been done. No sarcasm, thanks all. Leading me, BTW, to think that I'd seen it before and didn't realize it. Anyway the original post came about after looking at 4 link suspension setups sold by aftermarket companies, and the car is an 82 Cavalier that I'm desperately trying not to convert to 350 Chevy. But I think that if I were to convert it, I'd modify the existing mounts for the 2 locating arms on the rear axle, use a Camaro style torque arm and lower arms, and retain stock spring and shock mounts. But since I'm successfully following the 12 step program of Project Starter's Anonymous, this won't ever happen. Honest. I don't have to build it. I can stop collecting parts any time I want. I do *not* have a disease! Shannen andy quaas wrote: > > Why do they need to have rubber joints? I've seen many a 4 wheeler > with 4-link suspensions and don't have rubber anywhere. > > > >A four link rear suspension, where [two of] the links are [at] > angles to > > provide lateral > > >location can only work if the links have rubber joints. Also the > links have > > >to locate the axle as well as control the torque. > > I missed the start of this thread, but now i am interested! What was > the original post? What is the vehicle? > > Andy > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:54:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 You should be able to use one from some other genero GM computer, but you will need the proper resistor packs and the knock module (all soldered onto the prom carrier). I think they are used for the "ESC" knock control system. Andy - ---cwagner@xxx.net wrote: > > Date sent: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:33:19 -0800 (PST) > From: andy quaas > Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Send reply to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > If that works better I do have a 7730 to use but I do not have the > prom carrier to put the prom in. Any ideas? > > > Well i happen to know how they get a 7730 hooked up to the 4bbl TBI. > > I also happen to have an eprom from just such a combination! > > > > Andy > > > > > > ---cwagner@xxx.net wrote: > > > > > > Here is probably a simple question, but here we go. How would a > > > person go about adapting a Holley 4 barrel throttle body > > > injection(just the throttle body) to a 7747 computer? Would the > > > computer be enough to run the four injectors? I know Howell does > > > something like this but want to do it my self. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @xxx.com > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:54:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Voice of experience. Take the time to design some type of starvation prevention program. This will make your "toys for tots" effort much more rewarding. The 1/2 tank method is really a band-aid for poor or lack of design. Shannen Gary Derian wrote: > > Oh, I see. Don't forget to add baffling inside the tank or a separate surge > tank outside. You will need it because EFI cannot handle momentary fuel > starvation like a carb. Some just keep tank more than 1/2 full. Be very > careful of fuel line routing and pump mounting. Try to think what would > happen in a crash. > > Gary Derian > > >Nope, you don't understand. I'm transplanting the V6 into a 72 Opel GT > >which has no in-tank pump. To use the stock Camaro in-tank pump would > >require heavy modification of the tank and sending unit; an in-line > version > >of the pump would be much more convenient. > > > >Mike Pilkenton> > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:58:37 -0500 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! Hilarious! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Fred, I don't think there's a lake in New England big enough for you. > > Shannen > > LOL. > > I used to own a seadoo water skiing boat which a friend and > I "modified". It had a small inboard originally, which we > cut into the boat and re-bonded fiberglass to make it > stronger, as we needed to open up the back to facilitate a > larger motor. I lucked out and bought a 8 cyl ford-based > mercruiser, which was shoved in. Used to use it exclusively > in Greenwood Lake area on the Greenwood Lake NY/WestMilford > NJ border. Until I was kicked out for making huge wakes on > a fishing lake. Was a big lake, and my water skiing friends > liked skiing on the wakes. Purpose of wakes, right? > > However the fishermen along the lake sides in canoes weren't > appreciative, though we made every reasonable attempt to > stay in the middle of the lake as to avoid tipping anyone > over. > Funny, I used to feel the same way about pedestrians. As long as they stayed out of the middle, they were fine. > Those were the days :) Oh yeah. Shannen > > -- > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:13:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar Wouldn't the upper bars pull/push the same amount if spaced exactly the same distance apart from the center? I need to draw something to understand this better. Andy - ---Gary Derian wrote: > > There was a general discussion of rear suspension design. My point was that > a 4 link, where two of the links are angled to provide lateral location will > bind up when the car leans in a corner. One angled link will pull forward, > the other will push rearward. The amount is small but it is there. With > rubber bushings, it works OK. This type of 4 link is popular on many US > cars, notably GM intermediate and full size and Ford Fox chassis Mustangs > and their siblings. > > Gary Derian > > >Why do they need to have rubber joints? I've seen many a 4 wheeler > >with 4-link suspensions and don't have rubber anywhere. > > > >> >A four link rear suspension, where [two of] the links are [at] > >angles to > >> provide lateral > >> >location can only work if the links have rubber joints. Also the > >links have > >> >to locate the axle as well as control the torque. > > > >I missed the start of this thread, but now i am interested! What was > >the original post? What is the vehicle? > > > >Andy > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:34:32 +0000 Subject: Re: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Chris Conlon wrote: > Mainly what I was looking for was a way for the car to be judged on > the basis of what comes out (or does not come out) of the tailpipe, Is there an adjacent state that is more forgiving? - --steve - -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet@xxx.com www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:19:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > Ok, I'll start! There is a certain responsibility with going first :) > I was mulling around a little idea I had about my Pontiac. It's in the > garage with no fenders, the 400 looks pretty bare, with no harness or > plumbing. I have a spare (used) turbo sitting there from my old Mustang > ('84 GT350, turbo4) and have been contemplating adding this along with efi. Its my school of thought to add the EFI first, get that running suitably, making sure your EFI configuration is upgradable to the additional boost, either by a larger MAF or a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor depending on your configuration. > Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the > variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo > driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on > the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the > pro's and con's yet. I spent a lot of time with several friends of mine trying to achieve the best bottom end combined with an awesome top end on the Buick V6 twin-turbo. For scavaging purposes, you want the exhaust restriction to be about identical on both sides of the engine, so sizing a smaller turbo on one side and a larger turbo on the other will cause ineffective scavvaging on the smaller turbo side, unless you achieve a bypass. We tried running two small 1.6L Subaru turbos off each side, but they weezed out pretty low in the RPM band (about 3600-3800 RPM on the Buick). So, we then daisychained larger turbos (TE44) in series on the exhaust lines... however the smaller turbos "got in the way" at higher RPMs exhaust flow wise. So, we got a little crazy and used four of those cast iron JC Whitney exhaust bypass thingys and put one fore and one aft on the smaller turbo, so at low RPMs the smaller turbos were working hard, flowing its waste into the larger turbos to keep them somewhat spooled. Then, at 4000 RPM, we'd cut all four bypasses so the smaller turbos were "out of the loop". This worked very well, and increased power more broadly across the RPM band. The problem now is how to control these mechanical valves. Also, this is just the exhaust side of things, we hadn't really done anything with the intake side... we just monitored RPMs of the engine and where the turbos small or large stopped making any additional boost, or started to overspeed. Plumbing was a nightmare, and certainly the weight of four turbos plus four cast iron cutouts was not exactly something we wanted hanging off the headers. So, the small turbos went, and we used the two TE44's and at 6200 RPM, we blew the crank apart and testing continued on a second engine. We also experimented with nitrious for lower RPMs, triggering it in the 1500-3000 range thus giving more punch before the turbos are at max boost, and this also worked very, very well. Using the aftermarket ECMs (Haltech in this case) you have a general purpose output which you can use for Nitrious solenoids or fangle up an injector driver circuit to drive additional injectors... solder away my friend. We ended up with three injectors per cylinder... first two were 93/94 octane gasoline, the third was an 80% alky 20% distilled water mix from a seperate tank and worked very well. This is very similar to what I will be doing on my 383 stroker (431 cid) Mopar block during the spring as the parts start to come together. Hope that helps ;) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:42:25 -0500 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Doug Bazarnic wrote: > > Ahh, I see. My manual is for my '95 truck, Also, there are two different design pressure solenoids. Calibrations must match solenoid type. Again, break year is 94. > > So to be absolutely certain, beyond any doubt, that you > >have a pcm which will work with both transmissions, get the #16197427 > >part. > > Where do > you find this info? Ummm... I have connections. If you can get a copy of the Snap-on Prom reference guide, it has some of this info. Also, a good working relationship with a GM parts man will help immensely. >So, what is the proper calibration code for the 3/4 > ton 5.7L w/4L80e & 3.73 rear gears? BXSJ/4933 GM part no 16244933 > > > >Can you use the 2 "extra" wires to connect the "extra" trans speed > >sensor? > > Here are the differences that i see according to the pinout tables in my > service manual: > > Pin 4l60e 4l80e > B10 Cruise Signal NOT USED ** see note > E2 3-2 cntrl solenoid NOT USED > E10 TCC solenoid cntrl Idle speed actuator control (7.4 Liter only) > F2 NOT USED Input Speed High > F3 NOT USED Input Speed Low > > Okay, here's some details: the service manual lists, for these two > (actually 3, as one is diesel) computers, one is labeled 4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L > (C/K) 4L60E and the other is listed as 4.3L, 5.7L 7.4L (C/K) 4L80E. > > ** note: In the table of pinouts of the PCM, the 4L80E table shows B10 as > not being used, however, the wiring diagram does indeed show it going to: > Cruise Control Switch <- 396 Lt Blu / Blk > Does that manual have section 8A, electrical diagrams? Those are the most accurate, and any others can be out and out wrong. > It looks like I could yank E2 and move it to F2, and move E10 to F3 and I > wont have to run any extra wires at all. > > The connectors on the tranny are as follows: > Is this the way the chart should appear? It didn't come through correctly. If so, looks good. Unused terminals can be removed or sealed with silicone. > Pin 4L60E 4L80E > A 1-2 Shift 1-2 Shift > B 2-3 Shift 2-3 Shift > C Pressure Solen. High Pressure Solen. High > D Pressure Solen. Low Pressure Solen. Low > E Both Shift Slnd, TCC, and 3-2 high +12 volt ( ign. crank on) > L Fluid Temp High Fluid Temp High > M Fluid Temp Low Fluid Temp Low > N Range signal A Range signal A > P Range signal C Range signal C > R Range signal B Range signal B > S 3-2 Cntrl Solenoid Low TCC PWM Solenoid > T TCC Solenoid (low) > U TCC PWM Solenoid > > It looks like pin E is the same for both looking at the wiring diagram, as > it's the +12 side on all the solenoids in both cases. > > It looks like U goes to S and the old S & T wires will become my Input > speed low & high wires. Where I fall short is knowing things like speed signal lines should be shielded, especially for sensors that are sensitive to electrical noise. Thanks Pete Hipson. > Depending on what the 4L80e will cost me, I may purchase a lower gear set > for the tranny. Then again, I don't know if it's really necessary, as I > can leave tracks from here to wazoo... :) I have a video of me leaving > tracks over 85' long -- I can turn it into an .avi if you wanna see. > There's an internet burnout page at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~mwilgus/burn.html . > One other concern: Where / how is the vehicle speed stored? I have 3.73 > rear gears and I don't know if they figure vehicle speed via the ECM or > gears in the tranny or what? Good question. Speed used to be calibrated in the DRAC, a small white box under the dash, and the signal sent to the ECM was 2000 pulses/mi. I've noticed that 93+ vehicles with the PCM have the DRAC's divide ratio set to one, that is one pulse out for one in. Calibration factors must now be stored in the prom. Shannen > Thanks for all your help, > ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:03:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > Ok, I'll start! There is a certain responsibility with going first :) > I was mulling around a little idea I had about my Pontiac. It's in the > garage with no fenders, the 400 looks pretty bare, with no harness or > plumbing. I have a spare (used) turbo sitting there from my old Mustang > ('84 GT350, turbo4) and have been contemplating adding this along with efi. Its my school of thought to add the EFI first, get that running suitably, making sure your EFI configuration is upgradable to the additional boost, either by a larger MAF or a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor depending on your configuration. > Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the > variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo > driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on > the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the > pro's and con's yet. I spent a lot of time with several friends of mine trying to achieve the best bottom end combined with an awesome top end on the Buick V6 twin-turbo. For scavaging purposes, you want the exhaust restriction to be about identical on both sides of the engine, so sizing a smaller turbo on one side and a larger turbo on the other will cause ineffective scavvaging on the smaller turbo side, unless you achieve a bypass. We tried running two small 1.6L Subaru turbos off each side, but they weezed out pretty low in the RPM band (about 3600-3800 RPM on the Buick). So, we then daisychained larger turbos (TE44) in series on the exhaust lines... however the smaller turbos "got in the way" at higher RPMs exhaust flow wise. So, we got a little crazy and used four of those cast iron JC Whitney exhaust bypass thingys and put one fore and one aft on the smaller turbo, so at low RPMs the smaller turbos were working hard, flowing its waste into the larger turbos to keep them somewhat spooled. Then, at 4000 RPM, we'd cut all four bypasses so the smaller turbos were "out of the loop". This worked very well, and increased power more broadly across the RPM band. The problem now is how to control these mechanical valves. Also, this is just the exhaust side of things, we hadn't really done anything with the intake side... we just monitored RPMs of the engine and where the turbos small or large stopped making any additional boost, or started to overspeed. Plumbing was a nightmare, and certainly the weight of four turbos plus four cast iron cutouts was not exactly something we wanted hanging off the headers. So, the small turbos went, and we used the two TE44's and at 6200 RPM, we blew the crank apart and testing continued on a second engine. We also experimented with nitrious for lower RPMs, triggering it in the 1500-3000 range thus giving more punch before the turbos are at max boost, and this also worked very, very well. Using the aftermarket ECMs (Haltech in this case) you have a general purpose output which you can use for Nitrious solenoids or fangle up an injector driver circuit to drive additional injectors... solder away my friend. We ended up with three injectors per cylinder... first two were 93/94 octane gasoline, the third was an 80% alky 20% distilled water mix from a seperate tank and worked very well. This is very similar to what I will be doing on my 383 stroker (431 cid) Mopar block during the spring as the parts start to come together. Hope that helps ;) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:14:26 -0500 Subject: New Bible ACDelco has a parts book called "Pigtails". The 96 issue has a part no. 16A-101 Listed by item/car/truck/illustration, worth at least a buck, two, ninety eight. Grumpy ------------------------------ From: Wayne Macdonald Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:56:40 +1000 Subject: RE: exhaust system idea - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6F84.A8D8CFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yamaha use a flap in the exhaust system of the YZF-R1, the flap is = closed at low RPM to provide more back pressure then opens as the revs = increase. - ---------- From: James Weiler Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 4:19 PM To: Greg Hermann Cc: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: exhaust system idea OK legal issues, I didn't think about that part.....uhm, how about only = a=20 parial bypass then. What I mean is that the pipe with the butterfly=20 valve would protrude deep into the muffler such that most of the = baffling=20 would be bypassed but not all of it. Does this make sense? Guess I = need=20 to know what the noise limits are for my area and go from there. Need=20 to add a decibal meter to my wish list. thanks to all who replied, later jw On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >> Nothing new under the sun is the name of this game--This sort of a = set-up > >> used to be called either a "cut-out" or "lake-pipes" (as in the dry = lakes > >> in the desert in California). Illegal in lots of jurisdictions, but = prolly > >> not a lot of cops any more who would have a clue what was going on = OR that > >> they are illegal! > >> > >Don't know about your area, but here the cops are all busy filling = out > >forms, sleeping in the photoradar van or guarding the Hefties, so if = you > >stay away from these areas you would be safe. >=20 > Yeah--and with cutouts on a turbomobile, I doubt they would have a = clue > that they should look for cut-outs. Not quite as obvious as cut-outs = on > something like a medium riser 427 FE!! >=20 > Greg >=20 >=20 >=20 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6F84.A8D8CFA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjkWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA GAAAAFJFOiBleGhhdXN0IHN5c3RlbSBpZGVhAGsIAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcDAA4AEwA4ACgAAABaAQEg gAMADgAAAM8HAwAOABMANQAbAAAASgEBCYABACEAAAAzOTRCNUEzMEZGRDVEMjExODBBODAwMTA0 QjY0RDU4NQAABwEDkAYAIAcAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMA NgAAAAAAQAA5AGCFAPUAbr4BHgBwAAEAAAAYAAAAUkU6IGV4aGF1c3Qgc3lzdGVtIGlkZWEAAgFx AAEAAAAWAAAAAb5uAPT+MFpLOtX/EdKAqAAQS2TVhQAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8M AQAAABYAAAB3bWNkb25hbEBodXRjaC5jb20uYXUAAAADAAYQSZXs4QMABxC4BAAAHgAIEAEAAABl AAAAWUFNQUhBVVNFQUZMQVBJTlRIRUVYSEFVU1RTWVNURU1PRlRIRVlaRi1SMSxUSEVGTEFQSVND TE9TRURBVExPV1JQTVRPUFJPVklERU1PUkVCQUNLUFJFU1NVUkVUSEVOT1BFTgAAAAACAQkQAQAA AJMFAACPBQAAygkAAExaRnXtLnqX/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMC gzIDxgcTAoMiMw96aGVsAyBEbOpnAoM0Ew19CoAIzwnZ4jsXnzI1NQKACoENscELYG5nMTAzFCAL CosS8gwBYwBAIFlhAMBpEcAgdRHwIBzQGnFwEiALgCB0FPAgZXgnEcAc8AVAc3keYGVtCCBvZh3D WVpGLbhSMSwdwx1UBCBjFzA9EfBkHSAFQBcwB+FQTZEdwG8gcANgdmkNsKYgBGAXoCBiANBrIfE9 B5BzCHAdEB3CA6BvcLsJ8AQgYQQgHdIXoHYEIMsLgAUAZSRwZS4KhQqLIGxpMTgwAtFpLXgxNDQN 8AzQJ6MLWTGuNgqgA2AewGMFQC0px68Khyh7DDApRkYDYToqzjMpRgyCIEockAeRV2X/AxAEkCpv K30GYAIwLK8tu0BTdW5kYXkf0E2bCsARsCAnoB/QMTk0kOggNDo0gCAhoC9PK30sVG8xjy27Rxeg ZyA2SASQA4FuNU8rfUNjQzdvLbtkaXlfDcBpJkA+QRrgMi4J8Gcu4G9oaW8tHmAhICWgjQmAdToP MF51YmopgXM8Ly27UmVCgB4dIkFh8yXPJtMzNihHFcIMASlG/E9LIUA5YAdAIHEjYAeQxR/QST3x ZG4nBUAd0H8LgCMAAaAIYEpSISEKsXSiLkvCdWhtH9BoIWHzStQCIGx5HSEKhQqxBzFdIsB5CrAE ESPCLiOgV39LQkngB4ADkSCBSzMd0nDfBSAdEAPwHdAdw2JLAB7ArnIacE0wCoV2B0B2UOHNCGBs IQApQnJ1IlENsM5lHYIh0R3SbXUN0C8R/R6AdTQRSzMEYB5hHwUi0N9U8QuAOXAKhVMEYiKxTmPz IPFRkSBuKWAdIBURHwHzURBPAURvB5FKcQQgAMBOax0QEfAAgGU/I6BH90mRBCBJ4G4J4CEACoUh 0fZrWRAH4HdQNlkQBAAdEH0nAG1RECRRIqECEAXAbc9NMSVhHSAzgCBnIeADUp8dwhegTwEHwFwr YWQhAflT4WNpItADIAeAUcEhwv9fIQPxNCAnAB5gJb1LMUqg/ySBYbEVEV1AIeAXoAtQCJA8ZCwK hQtgUcEKhWp3W0XcCoVPA6AGEHQ0YTO/M9I0cx/QOUpQ8ClSOkXc/j5sgGk/ak9rW2yRbChskP5O KWBKgTlwXAAH4DNxYuL/HeEjYE/VXbEukR70IIFJIOsHgCnAVFpycxdBHvIc0PER8S11cG/qHPEh ACHRfVgRY1lRIPEu8GBiHSEiamNLAC1K8SIe8AXAIqsLYFrQLVCyc3ggKCRx2R2lZHJNMHiCc2/q eYbvB5AEkAVAHaFDB0AGkAWw6QMAYSlPAEl2wUkjA6DXFzBecR8Baghxcz4AKZC/P1AAgB/QWNIi ARUQeW/qr1kTfcIe8gWgcCRRbk0w/yKDZdJTBBHAUtEc0CCwClB9XTR3JHFf4FcCAiBIwFK/SyNv 6h3RXzMdkH00IW/p32woWhBKMlzzStR5CGFfQ/9/JGByHcOBdCKhWVJRkB6Qvx1AhpGEY0sAbChe 4W1Jsd5zLxBUEFcCHaVwTGAh0J5yYdBScyPxBcBndQsR/1cCHdI5kAGACJCNoiHgBpD/iWJsKD+B TTGEAIvxYCUdAvclYoliV6hzVsAlp2yQbCf6WSVwaCnAX6JRA3exSvF3fgEDoBzQdAhwBuAEYGL3 LwFJwwhgYlBTY1GCrmwn31AmTTBjkFMTFzBvIwBe4o13tXNPAHChIHF1URD7HRF+AWIiMAhgJFOd Fkzx/2wndDBisXDTJwBa0RzQB4AdPgB1HuB+cVUhNDI3+SxQRSGHCGwnOUKi36S/v0ZPKEcb1SlG CoUWwQCpkAADABAQAAAAAAMAERADAAAAQAAHMHCT3YEAbr4BQAAIMHCT3YEAbr4BHgA9AAEAAAAF AAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAKZC - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6F84.A8D8CFA0-- ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:44:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: turbo discussion I think the SAAB V-6 is a 60 degree unit from Opel, which means it is the same as the Catera engine (?). Volvo's light pressure setup is a conventional 5 cylinders into one turbo. Gary Derian ><> > >SAAB also uses it (turbo) on an engine that is very similar to the VW VR6, in >that it's a narrow angle V6 that shares a SINGLE cylinder head/valvetrain. > >Volvo has a similar turbo set-up. It's referred to as a "light pressure" set-up, >when you use only one bank of cylinders to spool the turbo. Volvo uses it for >their C70 model, for example. > >Jason >'93 SLC > ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:46:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar When both wheels go up and down together you are correct. When one wheel goes up and one goes down, thats when they bind. Gary Derian >Wouldn't the upper bars pull/push the same amount if spaced exactly >the same distance apart from the center? I need to draw something to >understand this better. > >Andy ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:58:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Small manufacturers have to meet the same emissions standards as the big boys. The only leniency is in reporting documentation. They can get assigned easier mileage standards and may be able to get limited exemptions from safety standards. Becoming a small manufacturer is definitely NOT the easy way. You have to move or register your car at an address which has different inspection criteria. Here in Ohio, the inspectors only inspect for a catalytic converter They don't even open the hood. Gary Derian >At 09:36 AM 3/15/99 -0800, Ward Spoonemore wrote: > >>Chris. I think you missed the point, or else I failed to make it. The OEM >>testing runs 4 - 5K$, and this assumes passing on the first try. >> >>The end all be all is not a simple IM240 (gas station test) or what ever >>they require in your state. The IM240 test are designed to insure compliance >>with a much more rigorous standard. Obviously we cant expect Joe Lug Wrench >>to do the OEM tesing every state required period. > >I guess I did miss the point. I thought you were saying that a small >company (me) could register as a limited-production car maker, and then >produce a small # of cars (1, in this case) which would be tested >against a relaxed standard. (Relaxed compared to the usual OE testing >standards, probably still pretty tough compared to the tests it has >to pass after someone owns it.) > >Mainly what I was looking for was a way for the car to be judged on >the basis of what comes out (or does not come out) of the tailpipe, >rather than what emissions hardware it does or does not have, or what >mods it has. (And $1000 would not be too much to pay for the privilege, >though $4000 is pushing it hard.) > > Chris C. ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:22:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion >This has been done to make a small engine behave like a big one. Mazda RX-7 >and Nissan Skyline GT-R or some such Japanese only homologation special. >Since you already have a big one and can prolly spin your tires at will I >don't think the complexity is worth it. Just put two turbos on it set for >mid to high rpm. After all, the only time you are under 3000 rpm is in >first gear, even with a Pontiac. > >SAAB uses a turbo on one bank of a V-6 for the whole engine. > >Gary Derian >> On that note, I have a couple other questions. The turbo I have has "Airesearch" cast into the intake side, and a few other numbers, but I haven't been able to find exactly what this thing is, as far as size and such. Would you recommend a single turbo then on one side for my setup? My plans are for it to be built in Pontiac style--no 6000 rpm redlines here. These Ponchos are pretty torquey down low, and I don't want to compromise that by attempting to build a screamer. The car is extremely heavy, too. I have no idea maybe someone can enlighten me on how to choose a turbo/turbos for a certain application. (somewhat layman's terms, please) Like are they rated on cfm? Would this turbo I have be a good candidate? Or would I need another like it? Deciding to use efi just seems to lend itself to "abnormal aspiration," and having parts on hand helps, too! Jim Yeagley 1996 Dodge Indy Ram See it and many others at: www.indyram.org 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "Jim Yeagley" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:29:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion >Its my school of thought to add the EFI first, get that running suitably, making >sure your EFI configuration is upgradable to the additional boost, either by a >larger MAF or a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor depending on your configuration. This makes a lot of sense! So, we got a >little crazy and used four of those cast iron JC Whitney exhaust bypass thingys >and put one fore and one aft on the smaller turbo, > >We also experimented with nitrious for lower RPMs, > >We ended up with three injectors per cylinder... first two were 93/94 octane >gasoline, the third was an 80% alky 20% distilled water mix from a seperate tank >and worked very well. > Uh, (picking up jaw from floor) wow. Sounds like a lot of fun to me! (Large sh** eating grin!, Don't think there's an emoticon for that one) Jim Yeagley ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:44:12 +0000 Subject: Re: 4 cyl big block! > Hilarious! And fun :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:11:05 +1300 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Hi Jim > On that note, I have a couple other questions. The turbo I have has > "Airesearch" cast into the intake side, and a few other numbers, but I > haven't been able to find exactly what this thing is, as far as size and > such. Go to www.turbofast.com.au They have the maps for a lot of the Garret / Airesearch turbos and lots of other interesting turbo info. > Would you recommend a single turbo then on one side for my setup? I'd go with 2 smaller turbos and make the most of the bottom / mid range. Smaller turbos spool up faster but aren't flash at the top end. Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested Computer Engineer, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The two most common elements in the universe are hydrdogen and stupidity....... ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:12:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Andy, can you expand a bit on how (electrically) you have hooked your Holley 4TBI to the 7730. Directly to the computer, or via an external driver box? Or, if you prefer, drop me a line, offline. I'm knee-deep in the same thing right now. Walt. >Well i happen to know how they get a 7730 hooked up to the 4bbl TBI. >I also happen to have an eprom from just such a combination! > >Andy ------------------------------ From: Christian Hack Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:14:50 +1000 Subject: O2 sensor Along a similar line I have an LM3914 based mixture meter on my Nissan RB30ET. Last night when I was lowish on fuel (still around 12-15 litres left) I noticed that my mixture meter was not going all the way to the rich end of the scale. It would go to somewhere around the 3 last LED (about 0.8V) but not all the way. At the lean end of the scale it would go all the way. At a constant 110km/h it was moving up and exactly like normal except that it didn't reach the end of the rich scale. Then I looked at the ECU (on Nissans they call it an ECCS). The ECCS has two LEDs to flash fault codes when in diag mode. In normal mode they flash together to show the mixture is right. However only the green LED flashed which means that the mixture was lean (from memory - but possibly it's rich). The coolant temp seemed a little higher than normal too. Is this a probable side effect of a slightly lean mixture? So why did the ECU think the mixture was lean when the O2 sensor was putting out a signal toggling through the magical 0.5V point? Filling up with fuel made the problem go away (the ECU said the mixture was right and the LM3914 meter was bouncing all the way to the end of the scale). So I'm guessing my fuel pump is on the way out. Plus the car always seems to run better on a full tank (even when you're talking an extra 40-50 kg of weight). Any Aussies know where I can pick up a cheap VL Turbo fuel pump? Anything else that would cause this problem besides the fuel pump? Thanks Christian > > From: "David A. Cooley" > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:41:30 -0500 > Subject: Re: O2 sensor > > Closed loop depends on more than the O2 sensor activity... it depends on > time since start on some models, coolant temp, throttle position AND O2 > sensor activity. When the O2 sensor is hot, it should be bouncing from > lean to rich (low V to High V) several times a second... At idle it should > be sending a voltage (But it can ONLY be monitored by a Digital meter with > several Meg-Ohms per volt input impedance...an analog meter across it will > ruin it!) > > > At 08:23 PM 3/14/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I have a question about how to tell when the computer is in closed > >loop mode when a person doesn't have a scan tool. > >I built one of the O2 sensor gauges using the LM3914 chip. What > >should I be looking for to tell when closed loop is on? From what I > >have read, I should see the gauge fluctuating several times a > >second (or as close as the eye can tell). Also, with the O2 sensor > >disconnected from the computer, the O2 sensor does not send a > >voltage during idle even though it is a heated sensor. I find this > >interesting. > Christian Hack christianh@xxx.au EDMI Pty Ltd Ph : (07) 3888 3066 FAX : (07) 3888 3583 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #173 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".