DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 17 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 175 In this issue: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e RE: Knock sensing Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Computer wanted to buy (cheap) Re: Off Panhard bar Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Knock sensing Re: O2 sensor Fuel Pump Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 RE: Off Panhard bar [admin] possible outage, lost of mail, etc... Re: Fuel tuning... Re: [Fwd: [J] MUST READ! GREATEST FLAME ON EARTH!] Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 ford efi to tbi swap PWM circuit question Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: ford efi to tbi swap Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: Dangerous injection ideas RE: Off Panhard bar Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: O2 sensor Fuel Pump Re: Fuel tuning... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter D. Hipson" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:49:10 -0500 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Not that difficult. You must create hardware to do the TCC lockup and do the pressure force motor driving. Then some software. I'm of the opinion that I could do the whole thing in a couple of weeks if I had to. I don't think you'd burn it up, unless you did something *very* bad! At 10:00 AM 3/15/99 +0000, you wrote: > >How complicated is it to drive these signals and make the transmission >shift? Do you have to start with a GM ECM and go from there, or would >it be feasible to build a little PIC based thing to run the >transmission? What's the risk of burning up the transmission? > >--steve > > >-- >Steve Ravet >ARM, INC >steve.ravet@xxx.com >www.arm.com > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ From: Putter C Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:47:12 +0200 Subject: RE: Knock sensing This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE6FAB.20121730 Content-Type: text/plain I would like to know more about this topic as well, I have seen the article an understand the theory, but has any-one out there implemented it yet? CarloP. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Franchuk [SMTP:franchuk@xxx.com] > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 12:54 AM > To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu > Subject: Knock sensing > > I was wondering, has anyone out there built or knows of a way to > detect knock via the ignition system? I think I saw an article on > this once where the current flowing into the spark plug just after > ignition can be used to detect knock and air/fuel ratios. > > Thanks > > Brian F. - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE6FAB.20121730 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhMMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcDABAADgAvAAwAAgA0AQEggAMADgAAAM8HAwAQ AA4ALwASAAIAOgEBCYABACEAAAAyQjM4RDk2MzA1RDlEMjExODY5QjAwQTBDOTAxOTUxMQDmBgEE gAEAEgAAAFJFOiBLbm9jayBzZW5zaW5nAP4FAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYA6AcAAC4AAAADADYA AAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAYgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA AAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAMAEYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAAgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAALAByACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAA AAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAIgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA EYUAAAAAAAADAB6ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4ALYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAC6ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEA AAAAAAAAHgAvgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA0QIA AM0CAAD4AwAATFpGdVS6WKoDAAoAcmNwZzEyNXYyAPQB9yACpAPjAgBjgmgKwHNldDAgBxOHAoMA UA+2cHJxMhC2Zn0KgAjIIDsJbw4wNbMCgAqBdWMAUAsDYwBBRQtgbg4QMDMzC6YgCEkgdwhgbGQg bABpa2UgdG8ga9xubwfgBGAJcCABoAhg2QVAdGgEABfhcA3gGLDBBCB3ZWxsLBcREED+dhfQEHAJ 8BkRGKEAIA3gpmwYoQOgdW4EgXMBkK8cIBsTGyEFsHkaQGIY8ecQQAQgAHB5LQIgF9AY5O8EkBfQ B3ALUGUHgAIwCYDrHxAFQHkQgD8KogqECoDmQwrACQBQLiBaCvQXoLwzNgFAFdABQBIAbx+ghGN0 EUQxNiAtJEJ6TwUQZwuAB0AF0AeQc/hhZ2UkQyBWI1QjIQsTwSNWaS0xNDQBQBegODE4MAFADNAn 42IgqkYDYToMg2IQoEIHIQ8DoCkwAHAQMHVrIFtgU01UUDoDUCqEQMhtbS4FoG1dIFUpEJcGYAIw KXdNAiBkYR1RRk0KwBAwIDE1GkAxhjku4C6AMjo1NBCwEk0sV1RvKXdESVlgX0VGSUABECKwM0Qy LgnwZy5vGTBvbi0cYR+gMcBkDHAsZ3WsYmojgSl3SxgwYyrQ/xBwAIEWMCXvJvoipAu2IGP/FyEZ 0i3BBnEWMBpAHcUeTD8dgAMQBUAFsRgiBCBvZvsYsDhheRfiIFQBACNyGBL9NLF2BzAbEySwAwAb gAIgzRrAeRxgH2A/IBcRGSH+birQFyAlUAfgA5EbZj5x1yBUGSMCIGMX0Hce0xsizmMIcAlwAjAg ZgkAA/DfFjAfEAIwGAAbInMKsSrQ5QtQdUNwanUcYBiwAYDXBJA8VT4XYwORYhfQROAfH7EX8TzL HIILcHIvZq8KUAMgKnA+UXMhe1QQQL8/gBAAIGkqBSF1EsEATHAAAAADACYAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA CwACAAEAAAAeAHAAAQAAABIAAABSRTogS25vY2sgc2Vuc2luZwAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG+b61i 4hXjmeXarRHSvkgAAOguERoAAEAAOQBQ/HAcq2++AQMA8T8JBAAAHgAxQAEAAAAHAAAAQ0FSTE9Q AAADABpAAAAAAB4AMEABAAAABwAAAENBUkxPUAAAAwAZQAAAAAADAP0/5AQAAAMAgBD/////AgFH AAEAAAAqAAAAYz1aQTthPSA7cD1TdW47bD1JTkdXRUItOTkwMzE2MTI0NzEyWi0yMjkAAAACAfk/ AQAAAEsAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089U1VOL09VPUlORy9DTj1SRUNJ UElFTlRTL0NOPVVTRVJTL0NOPUNBUkxPUAAAHgD4PwEAAAAJAAAAUHV0dGVyIEMAAAAAHgA4QAEA AAAHAAAAQ0FSTE9QAAACAfs/AQAAAEsAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089 U1VOL09VPUlORy9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRTL0NOPVVTRVJTL0NOPUNBUkxPUAAAHgD6PwEAAAAJAAAA UHV0dGVyIEMAAAAAHgA5QAEAAAAHAAAAQ0FSTE9QAABAAAcwUB39BqtvvgFAAAgwMBcSIKtvvgEe AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAB4AHQ4BAAAADgAAAEtub2NrIHNlbnNpbmcAAAAeADUQAQAAAD4A AAA8NzExODc4MDA4NUY4RDExMTg2NzIwMEEwQzkwMTk1MTEwQUU3RjZAaW5nd2ViLmluZy5zdW4u YWMuemE+AAAACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMABhAW+9vUAwAHEOkBAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAA HgAIEAEAAABlAAAASVdPVUxETElLRVRPS05PV01PUkVBQk9VVFRISVNUT1BJQ0FTV0VMTCxJSEFW RVNFRU5USEVBUlRJQ0xFQU5VTkRFUlNUQU5EVEhFVEhFT1JZLEJVVEhBU0FOWS1PTkVPVVRUSAAA AAACAX8AAQAAAD4AAAA8NzExODc4MDA4NUY4RDExMTg2NzIwMEEwQzkwMTk1MTEwQUU3RjZAaW5n d2ViLmluZy5zdW4uYWMuemE+AAAA0K4= - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE6FAB.20121730-- ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 06:07:22 -0800 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump - -----Original Message----- From: Gary Derian To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:55 AM Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump >Oh, I see. Don't forget to add baffling inside the tank or a separate surge >tank outside. You will need it because EFI cannot handle momentary fuel >starvation like a carb. Some just keep tank more than 1/2 full. Be very >careful of fuel line routing and pump mounting. Try to think what would >happen in a crash. ROFL I just started reading this list and I find a thread like this. Well, I happen to be an Opel GT fanatic (and then some, I own 3 and enough parts to build two more) and the thought of someone trying to make an opel "crash safe" strikes me as funny anyway enough b.s. Opel gt's mount the fuel tank inside the car because of the monocoque body (versus unit body like GM's) but they draw fuel through a hole in the under belly of the car (this is also a well known corrossion spot because of a rubber boot that goes bad..... OK OK to the point ... the VDO gages run VDO sending units in the back of the car there is a wooden "shelf" for the spare tire (not the one behind the seats) unbolt it and the tank is underneath plumb a new fuel line though the gage sending unit from their through the under belly to the engine. the reason I suggest this way is because I have had problems when cornering (a good left turn puts the fuel on the right side of the car) and the gravity feed system is not good enough for me. well I guess if you have any questions you could e-mail me ------------------------------ From: Dave Hempstead Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:32:25 -0500 Subject: Computer wanted to buy (cheap) Hi, I'm working on my 95 ECM, and I need one that I can rip apart and do experiments on. There is a fair chance I'll break something in it, so I don't want to use the one I'm using to run my engine today. So.... I'm looking to buy a computer out of any of the following cars. 94-95 GM B-body (Impala SS, Caprice, Buick Roadmaster) with LT-1 engine 94-95 F body (Camaro, Firebird) with LT-1 engine If anyone has a line on one of these for a reasonable price, please let me know. It must work electrically, but not necessarily mechanically. Thanks for any help you can give me, Dave Hempstead dave_hempstead@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:22:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Off Panhard bar No. The binding is not from the change in angle between the rod and the pivot axis. Its because one link tries to rotate the axle pinion up and the other tries to rotate the axle pinion down. This occurs only when the body rolls. Gary Derian >Shperical rod end bearings can be used instead of rubber bushings to prevent >binding. me > >When both wheels go up and down together you are correct. When one wheel >goes up and one goes down, thats when they bind. > >Gary Derian > > >>Wouldn't the upper bars pull/push the same amount if spaced exactly >>the same distance apart from the center? I need to draw something to >>understand this better. >> >>Andy ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:57:39 -0500 Subject: Re: More stuff on swapping a 4L60e for a 4L80e Tranny computers do real time slip analysis to control the shift firmness. It shouldn't be too bad but not as simple as just power the solenoids. You could burn it up by partially engaging two gears and driving that way for a while. I think you would feel it, though. Gary Derian >Not that difficult. You must create hardware to do the TCC lockup and do >the pressure force motor driving. Then some software. I'm of the opinion >that I could do the whole thing in a couple of weeks if I had to. I don't >think you'd burn it up, unless you did something *very* bad! > >At 10:00 AM 3/15/99 +0000, you wrote: >> >>How complicated is it to drive these signals and make the transmission >>shift? Do you have to start with a GM ECM and go from there, or would >>it be feasible to build a little PIC based thing to run the >>transmission? What's the risk of burning up the transmission? >> >>--steve >> >> >>-- >>Steve Ravet >>ARM, INC >>steve.ravet@xxx.com >>www.arm.com >> >> >Thanks, > Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) > 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:51:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Now I have a question, Fred. On a V-6, whether it be 60, 90, flat, even or odd fire, don't you get nice even every other pulse to a turbo when each bank has its own turbo? I don't see the need to cross over. Gary Derian > >The exhaust system was completely fabricated, with reversion >tubes the size of the ported exhaust ports, and larger tubes >over that, which became the rest of the header runners. 180 >degree headers which went underneath the girdle and the >drysump pan, to alternate pulses to the two turbos. The >plates originally were off the FWD headers, however they >didn't survive, so we used them as templates to machine out >3/8" stainless steel plates, and weld stainless tubing to >that. > >> Am I asking too many questions? 8-) > >Nope, not at all.> >-- >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:53:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensing Saab has used if for years, called Trionic. Gary Derian >I would like to know more about this topic as well, I have seen the article >an understand the theory, but has any-one out there implemented it yet? > >CarloP. > >> I was wondering, has anyone out there built or knows of a way to >> detect knock via the ignition system? I think I saw an article on >> this once where the current flowing into the spark plug just after >> ignition can be used to detect knock and air/fuel ratios. >> >> Thanks >> >> Brian F. > ------------------------------ From: neilaura@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:13:31 -0800 Subject: Re: O2 sensor At 11:30 PM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: neilaura@xxx.com> >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:06 PM >Subject: RE: O2 sensor > > >DIY_EFI Home Page >Members, and Projects-click >O2 LED Display-click >Bruce almost too easy > Grumpy is still waiting for someone to e-mail him a >clue,,,,,,,,....... The following excuses apply:- I'm a newbie to the list. I'm an immigrant and only understand English not American. It was late and I was tired. and lastly It was way too obvious. Thanks for the help everyone. Neil (still banging the rocks together) ------------------------------ From: eclark@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:58:53 -0600 (EST) Subject: Fuel Pump Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here goes. I'm going to be swapping a 93 LT1 from my wrecked firebird formula into a '66 Impala. Should I bite the bullet and buy a rock valley in tank pump, its $300 installed. Would an inline pump be a better deal. - - Eric ------------------------------ From: Matt S Bower Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:50:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion That depends totally on the firing order, most are not evenly distributed back and forth from one bank to the other. Gary Derian wrote: > > Now I have a question, Fred. > > On a V-6, whether it be 60, 90, flat, even or odd fire, don't you get nice > even every other pulse to a turbo when each bank has its own turbo? I don't > see the need to cross over. > > Gary Derian > > > >The exhaust system was completely fabricated, with reversion > >tubes the size of the ported exhaust ports, and larger tubes > >over that, which became the rest of the header runners. 180 > >degree headers which went underneath the girdle and the > >drysump pan, to alternate pulses to the two turbos. The > >plates originally were off the FWD headers, however they > >didn't survive, so we used them as templates to machine out > >3/8" stainless steel plates, and weld stainless tubing to > >that. > > > >> Am I asking too many questions? 8-) > > > >Nope, not at all.> > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser > >Bridgeport, CT 06606 ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:59:36 +0000 Subject: RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) I have helped with several small volume certifications, You also have to do 5 days of evaporative emisson testing, cold CO test and OBD2 verification, warranty, 100,000 mile durability and allot of paperwork and crash testing. The price can range from 1/4 to 1 mill. depending on carry-over, using manufacturer data and various exemptions,plus development and engineering to make it pass. Another option is to register if possible your car out of the US and then bring in thru a registered importer, where it could be certified to year of manufacturer. Or get all your parts or combination CARB approved Alex C. Peper EPA recognized lab manager http:\\www.he.net\~certlab alex > >Of course you can sign up as a limited production car maker and start out > >with EPA 75 emissions testing, shed test etc. The EPA 75's are $750 a pop. > > Could you please say a bit more about this, maybe toss out a URL or > something? I'd like to buy a modded car which has reasonably clean > emissions, but which won't pass a strict visual test, which we have > here. It might be worth $750 to me to be able to register it here... > > (Not to mention I have a real bad attitude about cars which are > squeaky clean out the tailpipe and gas tank failing due to visual tests > or "allowed" mods. So much so that it'd be worth $$$ to me just to > have such a car be fully legal.) > ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 The injectors are wired in pairs, in series. They run directly to the ECM. All other stuff is the exact same as GM! IAC, sensors, etc! I would like to do the 7749 conversion this summer. It should hook up just like the 7730, i think. But the 7749 has a real nice free-ware programming tool! Andy p.s. so are the holley injectors P+H? The 749 and 730 are both P+H. right? - ---Walter Sherwin wrote: > > Andy, can you expand a bit on how (electrically) you have hooked your > Holley 4TBI to the 7730. Directly to the computer, or via an external > driver box? Or, if you prefer, drop me a line, offline. I'm knee-deep in > the same thing right now. > > Walt. > > > > >Well i happen to know how they get a 7730 hooked up to the 4bbl TBI. > >I also happen to have an eprom from just such a combination! > > > >Andy > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:10:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Off Panhard bar I just assumed that they would be. Andy - ---"Eidson, Mark" wrote: > > Shperical rod end bearings can be used instead of rubber bushings to prevent > binding. me > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: jsg@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:22:29 -0500 Subject: [admin] possible outage, lost of mail, etc... The site that is running our mailing list is about to do a system upgrade. Unfortunately, I cannot be there to make sure it goes smoothly from the stand point of our mailing lists (I'm not the one doing it this time). Don't be surprised if there are some problems in the next couple of days. I'm doing what I can to help and organize the process, and I will clean up the problems afterwards. Please be patient.... john ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:43:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... At 04:08 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Depending on speed, at 70MPH I see between 35 and 40 degrees advance at >>cruise... lower speeds around town, 23-30 degrees seems to be "normal" > >This got an AL head?. cruise might be a tad high (40), and cruise (low) of >23 >low.. The 23 being low is for a cruise rpm of no less than about 1400, >if you have one of the applications that can do a low cruise of say 1100 >then 23 might be fine, just I usually don't deal with anything that can do >that low of cruise rpm. >> Well, not sure if the last post made it... had an attachment I had toconvert to text... Yesterday, during cruise at 45 MPH in 3rd gear ~1500 RPM I see about 30 degrees advance. In OD at 65MPH (1700 RPM) I see between 35 and 40 degrees advance. At part throttle accelerating up a hill at 2500 RPM I see about 30 degrees advance and no knock counts. I seem to pick up between 10 and 15 knock counts immediately after a shift and timing falls to between 10 and 12 degrees then starts climbing back up again. Here's what I see at WOT immediately before the shift to 2nd gear:LeSabre Data Scanner Promld 1694 Battery Voltage 13.50 Volts 02 Voltage 910.20mV Coolant Temp 198.95 Deg F Knock Counts 136 Engine RPM 5221 RPM Speed 48 MPH LV8 225 Run Time 1277 Seconds TC Slip 251.00 N/V Ratio 105.00 Injector PW 18.91 mSec TPS Voltage 4.34 Volts 02 Cross Counts 0 air Temp 47.75 Deg F advance 20.47 Deg Engine Torque 92 Lb/Ft MAF 140.78 G/Sec Weak Cylinder 0 Cyl Gear 2 TCC PWM DC 0.00 Trans Temp 157.10 Deg. F Hopefully this helps or can give an idea of what I'm seeing or where I need to go... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:47:27 -0800 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [J] MUST READ! GREATEST FLAME ON EARTH!] Just not on this list... Sandy At 10:44 PM 3/15/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hang on, you said late meaning no longer on this list right? Not late, >as in no longer part of this world right? > >jw > > >On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Scott Schaaf wrote: > >> NOT,, I repeat, NOT ME!!!! Teh only problem with Gar was, that he was >> aCTUALLY pretty sharp about some things. I 'THINK'(?) I learned alot >> from him!!! >> >> >> Sandy wrote: >> > >> > I'll still go with the realism from the late Garfield, he was much better >> > at it on regular basis. Sad, I kind'a miss it. >> > >> > Sandy >> ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:21:27 -0800 Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 > >I would like to do the 7749 conversion this summer. It should hook up >just like the 7730, i think. But the 7749 has a real nice free-ware >programming tool! > >Andy >p.s. so are the holley injectors P+H? The 749 and 730 are both P+H. >right? According to Holley, the injector coils have the exact same electrical specifications as the GM 220/TBI injectors and are to be ideally driven in a 4/1 amp P&H configuration. They certainly operate faster/crisper with individual 4/1 amp drivers, than with two series pairs attached to two drivers. I am not too familiar with the 749, but if it has four 4/1 drivers, then that is probably the best way. I guess I have some homework. Where can I find out about the free-ware programming tool mentioned above? Thanks; walt. ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 18:21:37 -0800 Subject: ford efi to tbi swap has anyone swaped out a ford four cyl efi turbo motor for a tbi v6 I am trying to avoid changing the entire wireing harness. I have read about maf upgrades on tbi motors and by looking at the pinouts of the computer all ford eec-4 their is only two injector wires for the four cyl if I connect these wires to the tbi and plug in the rest of the sensors it should run but my main fear is that even though the four banger was turbo'd the fuel maps might still be lean if it reads from a 2 or 3 bar map sensor (wich I haven't located in the car) so heres the topology '86 thunderbird w/v6 3.8 TBI (totaled front end) '85 thunderbird w/Turbo four and EFI (decided to get hungry and eat turbo, also has bad trany) The wires for the sensors split inside the dash half go out the drivers side and the other half go out the pasenger side. I have the computer from both but I don't have a intact MAP sensor from the '86 so I was hopeing to use the MAF since it is prefered anyway. sorry I typed so much J.O. ------------------------------ From: John Andrianakis Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:32:16 +0200 Subject: PWM circuit question As my knowledge of electronics is limited, could someone tell me if I can use the pwm2 circuit to drive a three way solenoid valve for turbo boost control? What would be the consistency of the settings? I suppose I would have to change the frequency first and am planning on getting an oscilloscope to help me see the response time of the valve. Thank you for your help. Regards, John Andrianakis. ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:30:32 +1300 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > The exhaust system was completely fabricated, with reversion > tubes I didn't think reversion tubes would be worth the hassle for the power gain..... Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested Computer Engineer, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The two most common elements in the universe are hydrdogen and stupidity....... ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:48:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 Walter Sherwin wrote: > > > > >I would like to do the 7749 conversion this summer. It should hook up > >just like the 7730, i think. But the 7749 has a real nice free-ware > >programming tool! > > > >Andy > >p.s. so are the holley injectors P+H? The 749 and 730 are both P+H. > >right? > > According to Holley, the injector coils have the exact same electrical > specifications as the GM 220/TBI injectors and are to be ideally driven in a > 4/1 amp P&H configuration. They certainly operate faster/crisper with > individual 4/1 amp drivers, than with two series pairs attached to two > drivers. I am not too familiar with the 749, but if it has four 4/1 > drivers, then that is probably the best way. I guess I have some homework. > Where can I find out about the free-ware programming tool mentioned above? > > Thanks; > walt. Thought there was a little note (P4docs) floating around which said one injector driver for the 749? Also, latest version of "freeware" is shareware, available at http://www.syty.org/ Have fun. Shannen ------------------------------ From: Chad Clendening Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:05:46 -0600 Subject: Re: ford efi to tbi swap Your project very well could be easier, but this is what I have experienced. I helped on a 96 Ranger 2.3 to 93 5.0 conversion. Granted there was a 8 year differance between the truck and engine, but not much was the same. The ECM harnesses had significantly differant pinouts, the body and engine harnesses had differant connectors and wiring, the fuel pump was moved completely, and the list goes on. I would suggest buying wiring diagrams for both the donor and recipient vehicles from the dealer. They were well worth the $20 a piece paid for them. Oh ya, don't connect the 12 volt O2 heater to the ecm fuel pump relay output. That fried a resistor inside the ECM! Chad Jonathan wrote: > has anyone swaped out a ford four cyl efi turbo motor for a tbi v6 > I am trying to avoid changing the entire wireing harness. I have read > about maf upgrades on tbi motors and by looking at the pinouts of the > computer all ford eec-4 their is only two injector wires for the four cyl if > I connect these wires to the tbi and plug in the rest of the sensors it > should run but my main fear is that even though the four banger was turbo'd > the fuel maps might still be lean if it reads from a 2 or 3 bar map sensor > (wich I haven't located in the car) so heres the topology > > '86 thunderbird w/v6 3.8 TBI (totaled front end) > '85 thunderbird w/Turbo four and EFI (decided to get hungry and eat turbo, > also has bad trany) > > The wires for the sensors split inside the dash half go out the drivers side > and the other half go out the pasenger side. > > I have the computer from both but I don't have a intact MAP sensor from the > '86 so I was hopeing to use the MAF since it is prefered anyway. > > sorry I typed so much > > J.O. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:17:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 - -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:10 PM Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 The 730 has one P+H driver, ie 87 2.0L vin1. Needs a repin to use it, and it's for a single injector. The sunbird turbos+Q4 used the 749 and it has 2 drivers each able to drive two injectors. The 749 Promgrammer is $15.95, no longer freeware. Bruce 7749 has a real nice free-ware >> >programming tool! >> >Andy >> >p.s. so are the holley injectors P+H? The 749 and 730 are both P+H. >> >right? >> According to Holley, the injector coils have the exact same electrical >> specifications as the GM 220/TBI injectors and are to be ideally driven in a >> 4/1 amp P&H configuration. They certainly operate faster/crisper with >> individual 4/1 amp drivers, than with two series pairs attached to two >> drivers. I am not too familiar with the 749, but if it has four 4/1 >> drivers, then that is probably the best way. I guess I have some homework. >> Where can I find out about the free-ware programming tool mentioned above? >> Thanks; >> walt. >Thought there was a little note (P4docs) floating around which said >one injector driver for the 749? >Also, latest version of "freeware" is shareware, available at >http://www.syty.org/ >Have fun. >Shannen ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:12:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Every V-6 I know fires bank to bank. Each bank fires 3 times, 240 deg apart, in a 720 deg cycle. Gary Derian Fred answered: >That depends totally on the firing order, most are not evenly >distributed back and forth from one bank to the other. > >Gary Derian wrote: >> >> Now I have a question, Fred. >> >> On a V-6, whether it be 60, 90, flat, even or odd fire, don't you get nice >> even every other pulse to a turbo when each bank has its own turbo? I don't >> see the need to cross over. >> ------------------------------ From: "Walter Sherwin" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:31:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 >> > >> >I would like to do the 7749 conversion this summer. It should hook up >> >just like the 7730, i think. But the 7749 has a real nice free-ware >> >programming tool! >> > >> >Andy >> >p.s. so are the holley injectors P+H? The 749 and 730 are both P+H. >> >right? >> >> According to Holley, the injector coils have the exact same electrical >> specifications as the GM 220/TBI injectors and are to be ideally driven in a >> 4/1 amp P&H configuration. They certainly operate faster/crisper with >> individual 4/1 amp drivers, than with two series pairs attached to two >> drivers. I am not too familiar with the 749, but if it has four 4/1 >> drivers, then that is probably the best way. I guess I have some homework. >> Where can I find out about the free-ware programming tool mentioned above? >> >> Thanks; >> walt. >Thought there was a little note (P4docs) floating around which said >one injector driver for the 749? >Also, latest version of "freeware" is shareware, available at >http://www.syty.org/ >Have fun. >Shannen Thanks! Okay, can someone who has used the 749 tell me exactly how many drivers it has, and what flavour they are? Walt. ------------------------------ From: "Bill the arcstarter" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:33:37 PST Subject: Re: Dangerous injection ideas Guys, Received my acetylene regulator and linear stepper in the mail today from C&H surplus. The regulator is a really solidly built unit from Fischer Scientific, still in its original bubble wrap. Can't beat that for $15... :) The linear stepper is an Airpax 4-phase motor and appears to have about 256 full steps from full retract to full extension. $10. It appears that this range will be sufficient to control the above regulator. I hope it has enough force. I hay have to half step it to both increase resolution and force. - -Bill Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:10:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Off Panhard bar I just assumed that they would be. Andy - ---"Eidson, Mark" wrote: > > Shperical rod end bearings can be used instead of rubber bushings to prevent > binding. me > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:43:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > Every V-6 I know fires bank to bank. Each bank fires 3 times, 240 deg > apart, in a 720 deg cycle. > What about the old Odd-fire GM V6 - 231? cu inch? The dist cap looked like a V8 cap with 2 towers pulled out. Idled about that way too. ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:59:36 +0000 Subject: RE: Limited-prod car maker (EPA 75?) I have helped with several small volume certifications, You also have to do 5 days of evaporative emisson testing, cold CO test and OBD2 verification, warranty, 100,000 mile durability and allot of paperwork and crash testing. The price can range from 1/4 to 1 mill. depending on carry-over, using manufacturer data and various exemptions,plus development and engineering to make it pass. Another option is to register if possible your car out of the US and then bring in thru a registered importer, where it could be certified to year of manufacturer. Or get all your parts or combination CARB approved Alex C. Peper EPA recognized lab manager http:\\www.he.net\~certlab alex > >Of course you can sign up as a limited production car maker and start out > >with EPA 75 emissions testing, shed test etc. The EPA 75's are $750 a pop. > > Could you please say a bit more about this, maybe toss out a URL or > something? I'd like to buy a modded car which has reasonably clean > emissions, but which won't pass a strict visual test, which we have > here. It might be worth $750 to me to be able to register it here... > > (Not to mention I have a real bad attitude about cars which are > squeaky clean out the tailpipe and gas tank failing due to visual tests > or "allowed" mods. So much so that it'd be worth $$$ to me just to > have such a car be fully legal.) > ------------------------------ From: Matt S Bower Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:50:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion That depends totally on the firing order, most are not evenly distributed back and forth from one bank to the other. Gary Derian wrote: > > Now I have a question, Fred. > > On a V-6, whether it be 60, 90, flat, even or odd fire, don't you get nice > even every other pulse to a turbo when each bank has its own turbo? I don't > see the need to cross over. > > Gary Derian > > > >The exhaust system was completely fabricated, with reversion > >tubes the size of the ported exhaust ports, and larger tubes > >over that, which became the rest of the header runners. 180 > >degree headers which went underneath the girdle and the > >drysump pan, to alternate pulses to the two turbos. The > >plates originally were off the FWD headers, however they > >didn't survive, so we used them as templates to machine out > >3/8" stainless steel plates, and weld stainless tubing to > >that. > > > >> Am I asking too many questions? 8-) > > > >Nope, not at all.> > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser > >Bridgeport, CT 06606 ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747 The injectors are wired in pairs, in series. They run directly to the ECM. All other stuff is the exact same as GM! IAC, sensors, etc! I would like to do the 7749 conversion this summer. It should hook up just like the 7730, i think. But the 7749 has a real nice free-ware programming tool! Andy p.s. so are the holley injectors P+H? The 749 and 730 are both P+H. right? - ---Walter Sherwin wrote: > > Andy, can you expand a bit on how (electrically) you have hooked your > Holley 4TBI to the 7730. Directly to the computer, or via an external > driver box? Or, if you prefer, drop me a line, offline. I'm knee-deep in > the same thing right now. > > Walt. > > > > >Well i happen to know how they get a 7730 hooked up to the 4bbl TBI. > >I also happen to have an eprom from just such a combination! > > > >Andy > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:51:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Now I have a question, Fred. On a V-6, whether it be 60, 90, flat, even or odd fire, don't you get nice even every other pulse to a turbo when each bank has its own turbo? I don't see the need to cross over. Gary Derian > >The exhaust system was completely fabricated, with reversion >tubes the size of the ported exhaust ports, and larger tubes >over that, which became the rest of the header runners. 180 >degree headers which went underneath the girdle and the >drysump pan, to alternate pulses to the two turbos. The >plates originally were off the FWD headers, however they >didn't survive, so we used them as templates to machine out >3/8" stainless steel plates, and weld stainless tubing to >that. > >> Am I asking too many questions? 8-) > >Nope, not at all.> >-- >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 ------------------------------ From: neilaura@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:13:31 -0800 Subject: Re: O2 sensor At 11:30 PM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: neilaura@xxx.com> >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:06 PM >Subject: RE: O2 sensor > > >DIY_EFI Home Page >Members, and Projects-click >O2 LED Display-click >Bruce almost too easy > Grumpy is still waiting for someone to e-mail him a >clue,,,,,,,,....... The following excuses apply:- I'm a newbie to the list. I'm an immigrant and only understand English not American. It was late and I was tired. and lastly It was way too obvious. Thanks for the help everyone. Neil (still banging the rocks together) ------------------------------ From: eclark@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:58:53 -0600 (EST) Subject: Fuel Pump Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here goes. I'm going to be swapping a 93 LT1 from my wrecked firebird formula into a '66 Impala. Should I bite the bullet and buy a rock valley in tank pump, its $300 installed. Would an inline pump be a better deal. - - Eric ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:43:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel tuning... At 04:08 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Depending on speed, at 70MPH I see between 35 and 40 degrees advance at >>cruise... lower speeds around town, 23-30 degrees seems to be "normal" > >This got an AL head?. cruise might be a tad high (40), and cruise (low) of >23 >low.. The 23 being low is for a cruise rpm of no less than about 1400, >if you have one of the applications that can do a low cruise of say 1100 >then 23 might be fine, just I usually don't deal with anything that can do >that low of cruise rpm. >> Well, not sure if the last post made it... had an attachment I had toconvert to text... Yesterday, during cruise at 45 MPH in 3rd gear ~1500 RPM I see about 30 degrees advance. In OD at 65MPH (1700 RPM) I see between 35 and 40 degrees advance. At part throttle accelerating up a hill at 2500 RPM I see about 30 degrees advance and no knock counts. I seem to pick up between 10 and 15 knock counts immediately after a shift and timing falls to between 10 and 12 degrees then starts climbing back up again. Here's what I see at WOT immediately before the shift to 2nd gear:LeSabre Data Scanner Promld 1694 Battery Voltage 13.50 Volts 02 Voltage 910.20mV Coolant Temp 198.95 Deg F Knock Counts 136 Engine RPM 5221 RPM Speed 48 MPH LV8 225 Run Time 1277 Seconds TC Slip 251.00 N/V Ratio 105.00 Injector PW 18.91 mSec TPS Voltage 4.34 Volts 02 Cross Counts 0 air Temp 47.75 Deg F advance 20.47 Deg Engine Torque 92 Lb/Ft MAF 140.78 G/Sec Weak Cylinder 0 Cyl Gear 2 TCC PWM DC 0.00 Trans Temp 157.10 Deg. F Hopefully this helps or can give an idea of what I'm seeing or where I need to go... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #175 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".