DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 18 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 178 In this issue: Re: How easy would it be to swap a 4L60e for a 4L80e RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Re: Fuel Pump RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion, design Q's Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion F-body disaster... Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion, design Q's Re: Dangerous injection ideas Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Re: F-body disaster... Re: F-body disaster... Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Shift light Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Re: Real HP loss numbers See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:46:29 -0500 Subject: Re: How easy would it be to swap a 4L60e for a 4L80e For anybody who missed it, here are the gear ratios for the two transmissions. 4L60E 4L80E 1st 3.06 2.42 2nd 1.63 1.42 3rd 1.00 1.00 4th .70 .75 rev 2.08 2.29 Shannen Mark Stoner wrote: > > Nobody seems to have mentioned this yet, but the 4L60(700R4) or 4L60E > have different 1st gear ratios than the TH400 based 4L80E. > If I remember correctly, the 4L60 is 3.4:1 and the 4L80 is around 2.8:1 > > "Peter D. Hipson" wrote: > > > > > > >So the $100 question is: How easy would it be to swap the 4l60e vs the > > >4l80e. Can the stock computer talk to a 4l80e without any probs? I've > > >got the mastertune software that lets me change what ever I want, so shift > > >points / line pressure wouldn't be a problem, if the stock computer can do > > >it. Also, are the wiring harness connectors the same? > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Doug Bazarnic > > > > > > > > -- > Mark Stoner Telemetry Electronics Engineer > email: mstoner@xxx.gov/ > Ph: (505) 679-9745 Fax: (505) 679-9753 > Research Rockets / Physical Science Laboratory / NMSU > Box 30002 Las Cruces, NM 88003 / N200 LC-35 White Sands Missile Range ------------------------------ From: "Ward Spoonemore" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:36:19 -0800 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Yes you canuse the pld style dist if you can machine the intake, the TBI is a very bad idea, It wont fit for one thing. And the would be swine befor pearls, TBI sucks. Ward > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of David > Sagers > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 1996 5:12 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 > > > I have a chance to buy a new model LT1 for my truck. I'm concerned that > connecting the front mounted distributor to my computer will be a major > headache or rather expensive to convert the computer/harness. > > Is it possible to use an old style distributor on this engine instead of > the front mounted LT1 style distributor? If this looks like it'll work, > I plan on using my TBI intake, EFI and computer. Anything else I should > know about before I dig in? > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ From: "Mike Pilkenton" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:33:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Why would an in-line pump require a fuel/air separator? Air picup would come from the tank. It seems to me the style of pump doesn't matter as long as the tank is designed properly???? Mike P. - -----Original Message----- From: rr To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Fuel Pump >It is a good way to go, pricey, but good. I understand that they >build the tank with baffling around the pickup. Check this, as >this is the major benefit. Witout the baffling, it's not worth >it, IMHO. > >With an inline pump, proper operation will require a fuel/air >seperator. Otherwise, air pickup causes short leanouts and >the corresponding problems. > >Unless you keep the tank over 1/2 full, can be a short term fix. > >BobR. > >>Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here goes. >> >>I'm going to be swapping a 93 LT1 from my wrecked firebird formula into a >>'66 Impala. Should I bite the bullet and buy a rock valley in tank pump, >>its $300 installed. Would an inline pump be a better deal. >> >>- Eric > ------------------------------ From: Marc Piccioni Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:46:28 -0700 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Dave. I believe that you can convert to the earlier style distributor, check with your local GM dealer for the latest GM performance parts catalogue it for details... /Marc - ---------- From: David Sagers[SMTP:dls2867@xxx.com] Sent: February 8, 1996 6:11 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 I have a chance to buy a new model LT1 for my truck. I'm concerned that connecting the front mounted distributor to my computer will be a major headache or rather expensive to convert the computer/harness. Is it possible to use an old style distributor on this engine instead of the front mounted LT1 style distributor? If this looks like it'll work, I plan on using my TBI intake, EFI and computer. Anything else I should know about before I dig in? Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@0!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`& !```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&$`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S M,BYE;F``,P`0`` M`"(```!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S,BYE;F5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO M:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=2<``@$+, $````G````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$5&23,S M,BY%3D`!X, M`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````& ```&UP:6-C:6]N:4!A='1C86YA M9&$N;F5T``,`!A#O5%[8`P`'$*H"```>``@0`0```&4```!$059%24)%3$E% M5D542$%464]50T%.0T].5D525%1/5$A%14%23$E%4E-464Q%1$E35%))0E54 M3U(L0TA%0TM7251(64]54DQ/0T%,1TU$14%,15)&3U)42$5,051%4U1'35!% M``````(!"1 !````K0,``*D#```U!@``3%I&=>>BQHK_``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*# M`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B?,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F0A@(&,#D06@;K<,&4*P*<=\07 $\!Y;!XP9 0`DG0%$&)U'Z!R+![0\1_@8VL@`_ > M4!Z2!<#G%S >X ,@xxx.! M8QXP"K%TKP0@xxx.S#; !D ,0XL9@R"''(4:60&`6<$D'-;4R!-5% Z9"=@,CAP-C= :"R `, # M$"[Y!:!M72V/+IT&8 (P+\]!,-M&96)R=0K >00@xxx."&@,3DY-B#(-CHQ'&!! M330/+IV<5&\V3S#;(/!Y7PW '&E !Y SH GP9RYO<&AI;RT3P"11/E!DQG4Y MKS4>=6)J+*$[SPDPVU)E0?!$25E?9$5&';!$:3(@)(%6:#0@(RPP,BCO*?,S M?C8K9QO5+&8=L!& 'B%AOR&Q)5,?H2%0.)!(X&X'T;,$8@,@3%0<8"/";3B0 M)2$@=2'P+B =H"=M_Q\2)7 $H F 'D0*A1\A2@![++ +@&R!A`_!L`R =T$C1`,!JYP6Q"H4?X&%D`- ?X06Q MSG(>"3@`('?'B(?L!\G'^%09B\1@4H`GP002Z$]X'"^`4 ` @xxx.B `````3XT` ` end ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:21:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion, design Q's Look at the "stepped" headers used by the local roundy rounders...more food for thought. Tom ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:34:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > with Fred it was probably when he noticed small red hot bits of metal bouncing > > off the equipment > > Actually it was the noise of the turbine scraping on the housing. I've heard that noise and it's like fingernails on the blackboard at mach 4. Tom ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:42:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the > > variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo > > driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on > > the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the > > pro's and con's yet. > > I spent a lot of time with several friends of mine trying to achieve > the best > bottom end combined with an awesome top end on the Buick V6 > twin-turbo. Look at the compressor maps, ( someone posted a site a while ago) if you can pick one with a wide map rather that a tall/narrow one, it will work for a wider rpm range. most motors over 400 hp work better with twins, size the compressors for effeciency and change the turbine housings, like changing blower pulleys, until you get enough boost. waste gates are for small turbines on large engines, (except that open wastegates in cruse mode help mileage), a crutch for incorrect sizes. If you have enough cam for power at 7500 rpm, forget about boost at 2500.... Tom ------------------------------ From: Tom Sharpe Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:46:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion Gregory A. Parmer wrote: > >On a V-6, whether it be 60, 90, flat, even or odd fire, don't you get nice > >even every other pulse to a turbo when each bank has its own turbo? I don't > >see the need to cross over. > > I thought it was a self-equalizing measure...to insure that both sides > of the engine were flowing similar amounts of air. Isn't balance a > good thing? Same would hold for any twin turbo arrangement feeding > specific cylinders regardless of firing order or engine layout. > > One good guess deserves another, Another guess... The pre-turbo exhaust system acts as a shock absorber/balancer for exhaust pulses,,,, not too much restriction for the exhaust exiting the ports and not too hard of a pulse at the turbin inlet.. Volume and length and tube size and stepped and 4/2/1 etc all play a part... Tom ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:10:10 -0500 Subject: F-body disaster... The F-body list http://www2.f-body.org/f-body/ has had their FTP site ransacked. As a result the infamous "decoding VIN" page is gone and won't be returning. Has anyone saved that info? Shannen ------------------------------ From: "Mike Pilkenton" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:32:06 -0800 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump I called my local parts dealer and they cna't find a listing for a Bosch 9 580 810 020? Is this the total number or am I missing some nomenclature? Mike Pilkenton - -----Original Message----- From: Clarence Wood To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:48 PM Subject: RE: Bosch Fuel Pump > It is external and it has a threaded inlet, I am assuming that the end where the plus and neg. terminals are is the inlet, but the outlet is not threaded. Also, by threaded I assume you mean that the inlet tube can be removed. > Anyway, if this is the pump you were looking for it can be found at Sherco Auto Supply, 1-800-548-6229, ask to speak to Mark. The pump is packaged as a Carter, #P74099. It is supposed to be 90psi, 38gph. Comes with a padded mounting bracket. Mark told me that it is a secondary pump for a Ford; he didn't know what model of Ford. >>> >>> >>> Can anybody help me find out anything about this pump: >>> >>> Bosch: 9 580 810 020 >>> 12V. 562-10 >>> E7TF.9350.AA 5B10 >>> >>> Thanks >>> Clarence >>> ------------------------------ From: Clarence Wood Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:33:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion, design Q's I would like to inject a bit of information here: The banjo turbine discharge. "Turbochargers" by H.MacInnes, pg.72-73. Stating that the banjo-type fitting worked at least as well as a straight exhaust. I mention this because of the way the turbo spins the exhaust it is important to change the swirl into turbulent flow "as soon as possible". I have been trying to find a Banjo but have not had any luck. I think it is really slick the way it works. And, I quote from the text: "A slight restriction in the exhaust pipe can be an effective high-speed boost control. An exhaust restriction can be used as a fail-safe method to limit manifold pressure without low or medium rpm power penalty." At 02:22 PM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Turbo engines respond to all the same tuning tricks as atmo engines. Tuned > >yes they do. The only thing I would append to your comments if I may is that >with a turbocharged system, you want the exhaust system to have as little >restriction as possible, because the turbo itself is a big spinning CORK. You >want little, if any back pressure pre and post turbo, especially with the larger >turbos. > >> headers included. Conventional wisdom states that a 4-2-1 header gives >> better mid range and a 4-1 gives better top end. There is lots of racing >> engines that use 4-2-1 designs With largish tube diameters and appropriate > >What would you recommend for low to mid end then? I am curious, for I'm >building a 383 Mopar B block stroked to 431 cubes (or more if I can figure it >out), using the EEC stuff to manage it. > >What I ended up with, since the vehicle is a truck and not a race car by any >means, was either to make shorty exhaust manifolds that go forward, attach the >turbos there, and blow up into the intake system I'm almost done fabricating. > >Also, even with turbos, and H-Pipe offers better performance. I am clueless as >to why this is the case, I believe it has to do with exhaust pulse >reverberation, however the H pipe does make a difference. Original testing on >the Buick before we ended up with bizarre headers, the tried the H pipe before >the turbos, and after the turbos. Post turbo offered slightly more power and >less turbo lag from idle. We used a 3" H pipe. > >BTW, I had called up to the shop, and found out that I was completely mistaken. >The 180 degree headers are in fact 3 to 1 headers, however underneath the dry >sump oil pan there is an "X" where the left side feeds the right side, and the >right side feeds the left side, in conjunction with their own side. My friend >said conceptually, its the same advantage as an H pipe, however being an "X" >rather than an "H" the crossover points are somewhat aligned with the airstream >versus the H pipe which is a 90 degree bend of course. > >See, I made this and I didn't even know what it was LOL. Hope that clarifies >what we did, and makes sense to some of the discussions. > >Hey Bruce, can I borrow your cone shaped hat for standing in the corner for 15 >minutes? > > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport CT 06606 > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) > > > ------------------------------ From: "Bill the arcstarter" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:56:53 PST Subject: Re: Dangerous injection ideas Clarence Wood wrote: > Could you supply a phone number, or web site, for C&H Surplus? >Those prices sound great! Sure - Here goes: C&H Sales 2176 E. COlorado Blvd Pasadena, CA 92207 (800) 325-9465 All sorts of cool stuff! :) - -Bill Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:21:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Bosch Fuel Pump Try the Carter P74099 At 07:32 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >I called my local parts dealer and they cna't find a listing for a Bosch 9 >580 810 020? Is this the total number or am I missing some nomenclature? > >Mike Pilkenton >-----Original Message----- >From: Clarence Wood >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:48 PM >Subject: RE: Bosch Fuel Pump > > >> It is external and it has a threaded inlet, I am assuming that the end >where the plus and neg. terminals are is the inlet, but the outlet is not >threaded. Also, by threaded I assume you mean that the inlet tube can be >removed. >> Anyway, if this is the pump you were looking for it can be found at >Sherco Auto Supply, 1-800-548-6229, ask to speak to Mark. The pump is >packaged as a Carter, #P74099. It is supposed to be 90psi, 38gph. Comes >with a padded mounting bracket. Mark told me that it is a secondary pump >for a Ford; he didn't know what model of Ford. >>>> >>>> >>>> Can anybody help me find out anything about this pump: >>>> >>>> Bosch: 9 580 810 020 >>>> 12V. 562-10 >>>> E7TF.9350.AA 5B10 >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Clarence >>>> > > =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Andrew Choset Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:30:56 -0500 Subject: Re: F-body disaster... Give this a try: http://www.f-body.org/oldfaq/html/vins/index.html Andrew Choset 88 IROC-Z L98 T56 swap in progress >The F-body list http://www2.f-body.org/f-body/ has had their FTP site >ransacked. As a result the infamous "decoding VIN" page is gone and >won't be returning. Has anyone saved that info? ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:10:07 -0500 Subject: Re: F-body disaster... Thank you. Shannen Andrew Choset wrote: > > Give this a try: > > http://www.f-body.org/oldfaq/html/vins/index.html > > Andrew Choset > 88 IROC-Z L98 > T56 swap in progress > > >The F-body list http://www2.f-body.org/f-body/ has had their FTP site > >ransacked. As a result the infamous "decoding VIN" page is gone and > >won't be returning. Has anyone saved that info? ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:38:37 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 - -----Original Message----- From: David Sagers To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 7:22 PM Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 Use it intact. Getting a TBI for that right would not be an easy task, if at all. That is such a nice setup to piece together a kinda sorta deal would not do it justice, IMHO. Bruce >I have a chance to buy a new model LT1 for my truck. I'm concerned that >connecting the front mounted distributor to my computer will be a major >headache or rather expensive to convert the computer/harness. > >Is it possible to use an old style distributor on this engine instead of >the front mounted LT1 style distributor? If this looks like it'll work, >I plan on using my TBI intake, EFI and computer. Anything else I should >know about before I dig in? > > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ From: "Ferman C. Lao" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:22:33 +0800 Subject: Shift light I seem to recall that somebody sold a shift light that was available with or without the led light. It was housed in an aluminum tube. It did not have a tachometer dial but was adjustable over a 5K range I think. Sold it for $60-70. Does anybody know how to contact him? Thanks! ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:03:14 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 - -----Original Message----- To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 8:47 PM Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 I got an idea, this will sound easy but will take some work to dial in. Take the Distributor apart and get a second shutter disc. Notice how they have a set of 4 matching slots, and 4 oblong holes at one radius from the center. Take the second disc, and redrill it so that when you hold it up to the light you have 8 small holes on the one pattern. Then use a regular 7 pin ecm module. Fab a little kludge to read the 8 holes as the normal reluctor/pickup would and then feed that to the module, then wire the module as you would normally to a say 1227730. Then the rest is a plug and play for the harness/sensors. One LT1 driven by a 730 thank you Bruce >> -----Original Message----- >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #162 >> I have a chance to buy a new model LT1 for my truck. I'm concerned that >> connecting the front mounted distributor to my computer will be a major >> headache or rather expensive to convert the computer/harness. >> Is it possible to use an old style distributor on this engine instead of >> the front mounted LT1 style distributor? If this looks like it'll work, >> I plan on using my TBI intake, EFI and computer. Anything else I should >> know about before I dig in? ------------------------------ From: "Tom Parker" Date: 18 Mar 99 21:30:07 +1200 Subject: Re: Real HP loss numbers Daniel Ciobota wrote: > Let me jump in on this discussion with an observation. Rear wheel hp > numbers >are measured by observing the acceleration of two 1000lb drums by the driving >wheels of the car. That's how hp is calculated, rotational speed vs. time, >known weight of 2000lbs and known drum diameter. From those numbers, and >final gear ratios (rpm/drum rotation), the chassis dyno calculates >instantaneous torque required to accelerate the drum at that rate. Around here, most dynos have brakes. The operator lets off the dyno brake, puts the car in gear and eases up to the desired engine speed at very light throttle. The torque and hp gauges on the dyno both read zero as the dyno is not absorbing any energy (except in its bearings which may be taken into account). Then he twiddles a knob and the dyno brakes come on and he puts his foot down. There comes a time when the engine is at full throttle and the wheels are no longer accelerating. The BHP and Torque gauges on the dyno now show how much energy is being dissapated in the dyno brakes. If the operator increases the dyno brakes, then the assembly will slow down, but the power dissapated in the brakes will increase for a short time as the momentum in the rollers and spinning parts of the car is converted into energy. If the operator decreases the brakes, then the dyno will speed up and he can investigate what is going on at higher revs. This type of dyno does not suffer from any momemtum effects. The type of dyno you describe does indeed have all the affects you describe, but around here they are the exception, not the norm. - -- Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #178 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".