DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, March 23 1999 Volume 04 : Number 189 In this issue: EFI332 replacement for Bosch Motronic Brake by wire system Brake by wire Re: DIY-EFI References Re: Brake by wire system Re: Injector Math Re: 02 sensor - temprature compensation. Re: DIY-EFI References Re: Port intake design valve overlap "Negative Overlap" or more commonly known as Pressure Balance cams Re: valve overlap Re: valve overlap RE:Rochester Fuel injection system O2 Sensor current? Re: O2 Sensor current? Re: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system Re: O2 Sensor current? Re: "Negative Overlap" or more commonly known as Pressure Balance cams O2 Sensor Tweaking...and MAF Enlarging... RE: Port intake design Re: FI fuel line Brake by wire RE: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system RE: Rochester Fuel injection system RE: valve overlap Re: FI fuel line Re: O2 Sensor current? Re: Port intake design See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:06:41 +0100 From: tv@xxx. Voigt) Subject: EFI332 replacement for Bosch Motronic I'm wondering if anybody tried to replace a Bosch Motronic with a EFI332 ? Would like to do so on a Porsche 944 turbo to get a 'known' development environment. TIA, Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:02:52 +0000 From: Robert.D.Devlin@xxx. Devlin) Subject: Brake by wire system We are a group of final year automotive students from Sheffield Hallam University, England, and are currently researching the theory of a brake by wire system for use in passenger vehicles, as part of a project. This system can be retrofitted to any vehicle currently employing a hydraulic braking system, and does not require ABS to be a prerequisite, however this can be introduced by means of operating software modifications. We would be grateful if anyone with relevant information could contact us, any help would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou. Rob Devlin, Stephen Fry and Andy Somerville. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:07:35 +0000 From: Robert.D.Devlin@xxx. Devlin) Subject: Brake by wire We are a group of final year automotive students from Sheffield Hallam University, England, and are currently researching the theory of a brake by wire system for use in passenger vehicles, as part of a project. This system can be retrofitted to any vehicle currently employing a hydraulic braking system, and does not require ABS to be a prerequisite, however this can be introduced by means of operating software modifications. We would be grateful if anyone with relevant information could contact us, any help would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou. Rob Devlin, Stephen Fry and Andy Somerville. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:24:46 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Subject: Re: DIY-EFI References Yes, I'd be real interested if it's an L-Jet. What year? - ------------------------------------------- Bill Shaw '78 124 Spider http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html - ---------------------------------------------- >I reverse-engineered a Bosch control unit that came off a Volvo >P1800ES. I have complete schematics if anyone might be interested. > >Marty Grogan >ges@xxx.net >(206) 364-2520 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:45:43 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Brake by wire system Try the Society of Automotive Engineers, http://www.sae.org. There is a fair amount of activity in Brake by Wire systems. Gary Derian > We are a group of final year automotive students from Sheffield Hallam > University, England, and are currently researching the theory of a brake > by wire system for use in passenger vehicles, as part of a project. This > system can be retrofitted to any vehicle currently employing a hydraulic > braking system, and does not require ABS to be a prerequisite, however > this can be introduced by means of operating software modifications. We > would be grateful if anyone with relevant information could contact us, > any help would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou. Rob Devlin, Stephen Fry > and Andy Somerville. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:01:34 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Injector Math Negative overlap cams are what you might expect. The intake valve opens after the exhaust valve closes. This design greatly reduces the mid range torque of an engine in exchange for fewer concerns with EFI tuning. The really high output atmo engines have variable valve timing to greatly increase overlap at mid rpm. During idle and high rpm overlap is reduced. At idle, high overlap causes great reversion and poor emissions. At high rpm, exhaust backpressure limits the effectiveness of overlap. Also at high rpm reducing overlap retards the inlet valve closing which helps cylinder fill. Gary Derian as to the bumpstick itself, i'd suggest asking about a "negative overlap" cam. the cam grinder you want to do biz with will know what this is and how to tailor it to your situation. the minor added expense of getting a true custom cam will be more than offset by the results. IIRC, the latest tt porsche awd turbo used a neg overlap cam. Hi. I'd like to know more about these "negative overlap cams". Seriously! What are they, and how do they differ from the norm? Ditto on your comments about finding a cam grinder who will tailor YOUR cam to YOUR application. Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:34:50 -0500 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: 02 sensor - temprature compensation. On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:12:17 -0500 > From: Shannen Durphey > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: 02 sensor - temprature compensation. > > Ouch. I was going to register, but I'm not sure I want to wade > through that much mail, or take the time to learn about "configuration > settings. > Shannen you can switch to digest mode for the lists then you only get 1 honkin big email and you can set up to get just the lists you are interested in ( the setup is easy and gui driven) > > xxalexx@xxx.com wrote: > > > > There is a recent tech forum discussion on O2 temperature monitoring > > at the IATN web site. http://www.iatn.net/ > > Seems Ford puts the current draw in scanner data. > > Comments were made by GM and Ford reps. > > Excellent site if you are mechanic, you have to register but no > > charge. Have not seen any DIY hackers forums there yet. > > alex > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:35:32 -0500 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: DIY-EFI References On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Marty Grogan wrote: > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:32:12 -0800 > From: Marty Grogan > To: wilcutts@xxx.edu > Subject: DIY-EFI References > > I reverse-engineered a Bosch control unit that came off a Volvo > P1800ES. I have complete schematics if anyone might be interested. I am, do you have a web site?? > > Marty Grogan > ges@xxx.net > (206) 364-2520 > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:58:25 -0800 (PST) From: andy quaas Subject: Re: Port intake design Oh yeah-you did yours straight up. I missed this message. Andy - ---James Weiler wrote: > > I made one from a Edelbrock Torqer II manifold (single plane). I made my > own injector bosses and did all the drilling and nesessary machining with > a drill press. Looks good too. I put the injector straight up or > perpendicular to the horizon if you like. It's not perfectly aimed at > the back of the intake valve but for machining purposes it made things > alot easier and more consistant. Write me off list if you'd like details > as far as drill bit sizes and a more detailed procedure. > > HTH > jw > > > On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, andy quaas wrote: > > > Since we are all talking about the intake for a 4-cylinder, how about > > this? I have been toying with the idea of creating a port injection > > intake manifold from an aluminum single plane, such as force-efi does. > > Has anyone here done this? How does one position the injectors in > > the ports? > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @xxx.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:48:17 -0500 From: "Jim Yeagley" Subject: valve overlap Hi. I'd like to know more about these "negative overlap cams". Seriously! What are they, and how do they differ from the norm? Ditto on your comments about finding a cam grinder who will tailor YOUR cam to YOUR application. Walt, I'm not sure about 'negative' overlap, but I'll assume they are referring to less overlap. With a normally aspirated (unblown) engine, more valve overlap, or a larger lobe seperation angle, aids mid to upper rpm hp by allowing the outward flowing exhaust gasses to create a sort of vacuum in the combustion chamber when the piston is around tdc and both valves are open, where this vacuum starts to 'pull' the intake charge in before the downward moving piston begins to draw. At lower rpms, it creates that lopey idle we all know and love, but robs low end torque. With an engine under pressure, this larger overlap actually hurts, since the intake charge is under pressure and waiting for the valve to open so it can rush in. With more overlap, this intake charge rushes right out the exhaust valve initially, instead of creating more pressure in the combustion chamber. This is what I think they mean by using negative overlap cams for turbo'd or blown engines. Forgive me if I got too basic, it's something I actually understand! Jim Yeagley 1996 Dodge Indy Ram See it and many others at: www.indyram.org 1975 Pontiac Grandville Brougham Conv. (in baskets) webmaster@xxx.org jimyeagley@xxx.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:33:00 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: "Negative Overlap" or more commonly known as Pressure Balance cams The concept is quite simple and Dave Vizard in his book about Chevy Cams covers it extensively. Like all his books - more fact and theory than brand specific. The assumption is that since their is both positive manifold pressure and much higher exhaust manifold pressure thru much of the power region, use no overlap. Overlap in a NA engine used the exiting exhaust gasses to draw fresh charge into the cylinder and if the negative pulse from the exhaust is coupled to the intake, create even more flow. With a turbo, because of back pressure, for much of the throttle, the exhaust back pressure is higher than the intake pressure - so overlap actually forces exhaust up the intake manifold. So you time the closing of the exhaust valve to get maximum exhaust extraction and then delay the opening of the intake valve until well past TDC to about the point where the downward moving piston has reduced the residual exhaust pressure to the intake pressure. At this point - about 30 after TDC - you open the valve and the intake pressure - being marginally above the residual exhaust - forces charge into the engine. Absolute minimum exhaust charge dilution. Closing of the intake is about normal depending on boost pressure - but long duration late closing is not optimal - pressure fills cylinder and holding open late reduces the trapped charge and works the intake pressure against the rising piston. What results is a pure otto cycle engine - short cam on intake and normal exhaust. Very torquey on the low end - Vizard reports 1000+ hp with enough boost on a 350 chevy so there is no lack of top end power. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:34:12 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: valve overlap On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Jim Yeagley wrote: > Walt, > > I'm not sure about 'negative' overlap, but I'll assume they are referring to > less overlap. With a normally aspirated (unblown) engine, more valve > overlap, or a larger lobe seperation angle, aids mid to upper rpm hp by > allowing the outward flowing exhaust gasses to create a sort of vacuum in > the combustion chamber when the piston is around tdc and both valves are > open, where this vacuum starts to 'pull' the intake charge in before the > downward moving piston begins to draw. At lower rpms, it creates that lopey > idle we all know and love, but robs low end torque. > > With an engine under pressure, this larger overlap actually hurts, since the > intake charge is under pressure and waiting for the valve to open so it can > rush in. With more overlap, this intake charge rushes right out the exhaust > valve initially, instead of creating more pressure in the combustion > chamber. > > This is what I think they mean by using negative overlap cams for turbo'd or > blown engines. > > Forgive me if I got too basic, it's something I actually understand! > I believe you also want to use the less overlap cam's on a N2O engine, for similar reasons. For my car there is a 224/236-112 cam, and a 224/236-114 cam, the 114 cam is for blown/N2O applications, and the 112 cam is for NA engines. I am running the 114 cam because I want to run N20 someday. I believe the stock cam in my car was somewhere around 202/205-117 so it has even more separation. Roger 93 LT1 Z28 (350) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:52:34 -0500 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: valve overlap > This is what I think they mean by using negative overlap cams for turbo'd or > blown engines. Makes sense now! Thank you! > Forgive me if I got too basic, it's something I actually understand! Bite your tongue Boy! Basic is good because it gives everyone a way of understanding the concepts. I for one never really understood this aspects of engines before... other than the lumpy idle that I like the sound of . Now I at least have a scientific explaination that makes sense to me! - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:07:14 -0500 From: Jemison Richard Subject: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system Does anyone have any trouble shooting information, web sites, etc for a Rochester Fuel Injection System? Also, does anyone remember the RFI ever being offered on the big block? This is in a '68 Vette and the symptoms are crappy idle and blubbering - any change in settings causes stalling during gear changes. Anything will help. Thanks Rick jemisonr@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:25:18 -0600 From: Thomas Martin Subject: O2 Sensor current? I have been trying to see what my O2 sensor draws for current. For an experiment, ( I am trying to make it run slightly richer across the board ) I installed a 10K resistor in series with the O2. At idle with or without the 10K I read .57 idle, hot, closed loop. That seems high to me. If I rev it up, the voltage drops to closer to .4 to .43. It is somewhat stable, not swinging like I expect. Is this a sign of a bad O2? I am using a DVM to measure. It is an GM O2 sensor. (BTW, I have swapped O2 to another from my 91 Bonneville and have no changes) What I see is a 1.5mV drop across the 10K resistor, and when I rev it, it increases to 22mV. This is a very small amount of current, it this to be expected? Can someone give me some advice on this system? The car is a 85 Cutlass, CCC, 77 Olds 350. The AIR and Cat have been removed (reason I am trying to richen). The car runs pretty well. But when hot there is a nasty part throttle ping, light throttle, when at WOT or heavy throttle, or at very light throttle, no problem. I have been told that if the AIR system is removed this will cause it to be lean, as the O2 is expecting a certain amount of air to be present, so it would lean it out then. EGR is working properly. I am using an 82 307 intake with the improved EGR tube extensions. Am I missing something obvious? Will the AIR removal or missing Cat cause this problems? Thanks for any help! Tom Martin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:04:37 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? Wouldn't you want to operate leaner than stociometric for better economy? The AIR should divert to the cat when warm and not affect the O2. Part throttle ping can be caused by insufficient EGR. I don't think a simple resistor in series will work as you want. Gary Derian > I have been trying to see what my O2 sensor draws for current. For an experiment, ( > I am trying to make it run slightly richer across the board ) I installed a 10K > resistor in series with the O2. At idle with or without the 10K I read .57 idle, > hot, closed loop. That seems high to me. If I rev it up, the voltage drops to > closer to .4 to .43. It is somewhat stable, not swinging like I expect. Is this a > sign of a bad O2? I am using a DVM to measure. It is an GM O2 sensor. (BTW, I have > swapped O2 to another from my 91 Bonneville and have no changes) > > What I see is a 1.5mV drop across the 10K resistor, and when I rev it, it increases > to 22mV. This is a very small amount of current, it this to be expected? > > Can someone give me some advice on this system? > > The car is a 85 Cutlass, CCC, 77 Olds 350. The AIR and Cat have been removed (reason > I am trying to richen). The car runs pretty well. But when hot there is a nasty > part throttle ping, light throttle, when at WOT or heavy throttle, or at very light > throttle, no problem. I have been told that if the AIR system is removed this will > cause it to be lean, as the O2 is expecting a certain amount of air to be present, so > it would lean it out then. > > EGR is working properly. I am using an 82 307 intake with the improved EGR tube > extensions. > > Am I missing something obvious? Will the AIR removal or missing Cat cause this > problems? > > Thanks for any help! > Tom Martin > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:13:43 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system The Rochester unit was only offered on small blocks. Check those diaphragms and linkages for smooth action. There are some bleed passages in the air meter which adjust the idle fuel. Check those for dirt, etc. Gary Derian - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jemison Richard To: Sent: Tuesday, 23 March, 1999 10:07 AM Subject: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system > Does anyone have any trouble shooting information, web sites, etc for a > Rochester Fuel Injection System? Also, does anyone remember the RFI ever > being offered on the big block? This is in a '68 Vette and the symptoms are > crappy idle and blubbering - any change in settings causes stalling during > gear changes. > > Anything will help. Thanks > > Rick > jemisonr@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:29:58 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > Wouldn't you want to operate leaner than stociometric for better economy? > The AIR should divert to the cat when warm and not affect the O2. Part > throttle ping can be caused by insufficient EGR. > > I don't think a simple resistor in series will work as you want. > > Gary Derian > > The air (at least on my vehicle) is injected in at the headers, so the air should affect the O2 readings, at least I cannot see how it would not affect the O2 readings. I would not think a simple resistor would work either, at least not that low of resistor, and if they are using a resistor, they are probably getting both open circuit voltage, and voltage through the resistor/current through the resistor. I don't think with just one you can properly figure out battery charactistics. I like the other idea of measuring the resistance of the O2 heater, and calibrating that to get egt temps. Then I would need ot get a pcmcia AD card, and hook that up, and get the aldl data recorder software working together with that to get one data stream. Roger > > I have been trying to see what my O2 sensor draws for current. For an > experiment, ( > > I am trying to make it run slightly richer across the board ) I installed > a 10K > > resistor in series with the O2. At idle with or without the 10K I read > .57 idle, > > hot, closed loop. That seems high to me. If I rev it up, the voltage > drops to > > closer to .4 to .43. It is somewhat stable, not swinging like I expect. > Is this a > > sign of a bad O2? I am using a DVM to measure. It is an GM O2 sensor. > (BTW, I have > > swapped O2 to another from my 91 Bonneville and have no changes) > > > > What I see is a 1.5mV drop across the 10K resistor, and when I rev it, it > increases > > to 22mV. This is a very small amount of current, it this to be expected? > > > > Can someone give me some advice on this system? > > > > The car is a 85 Cutlass, CCC, 77 Olds 350. The AIR and Cat have been > removed (reason > > I am trying to richen). The car runs pretty well. But when hot there is > a nasty > > part throttle ping, light throttle, when at WOT or heavy throttle, or at > very light > > throttle, no problem. I have been told that if the AIR system is removed > this will > > cause it to be lean, as the O2 is expecting a certain amount of air to be > present, so > > it would lean it out then. > > > > EGR is working properly. I am using an 82 307 intake with the improved > EGR tube > > extensions. > > > > Am I missing something obvious? Will the AIR removal or missing Cat cause > this > > problems? > > > > Thanks for any help! > > Tom Martin > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:40:27 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: "Negative Overlap" or more commonly known as Pressure Balance cams - -----Original Message----- From: Robert Harris To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:59 AM Subject: "Negative Overlap" or more commonly known as Pressure Balance cams Trouble is, appling theory, has it's limits. To get good cylinder filling with the shorter Intake event (degrees duration), you have to go for the gusto on valve accleration on the intake. Too high accleration rate bad on lifters. Then on the exhaust side, closing the valve too fast allows it to slam, and then bounce a couple times. Not good on valves, or seats. Bruce >The concept is quite simple and Dave Vizard in his book about Chevy Cams >covers it extensively. Like all his books - more fact and theory than brand >specific. > >The assumption is that since their is both positive manifold pressure and much >higher exhaust manifold pressure thru much of the power region, use no >overlap. > >Overlap in a NA engine used the exiting exhaust gasses to draw fresh charge >into the cylinder and if the negative pulse from the exhaust is coupled to the >intake, create even more flow. With a turbo, because of back pressure, for >much of the throttle, the exhaust back pressure is higher than the intake >pressure - so overlap actually forces exhaust up the intake manifold. > >So you time the closing of the exhaust valve to get maximum exhaust extraction >and then delay the opening of the intake valve until well past TDC to about >the point where the downward moving piston has reduced the residual exhaust >pressure to the intake pressure. At this point - about 30 after TDC - you >open the valve and the intake pressure - being marginally above the residual >exhaust - forces charge into the engine. Absolute minimum exhaust charge >dilution. > >Closing of the intake is about normal depending on boost pressure - but long >duration late closing is not optimal - pressure fills cylinder and holding >open late reduces the trapped charge and works the intake pressure against the >rising piston. > >What results is a pure otto cycle engine - short cam on intake and normal >exhaust. Very torquey on the low end - Vizard reports 1000+ hp with enough >boost on a 350 chevy so there is no lack of top end power. > >1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" >1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" >1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant >1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" > >Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:54:57 -0600 From: "Kurek, Larry" Subject: O2 Sensor Tweaking...and MAF Enlarging... Guys: There is a major debate going on the F-body lists concerning HP gains from "porting" the stock MAF. I am arguing that the HP gains being shown on the dyno (7-10hp), are the result of lean out since the MAF is now out of calibration and NOT due to the increased airflow. I think the stock MAF flows around 650-700CFM, which on a NA 350 is MORE than adequate. Also, what I am arguing, and has been proven by a few list members, is that this gain is short term, since the PCM will 'relearn" the correct fuel trim values from the O2 feedback, and adjust the mixture accordingly. So, any leanout effect will be compensated for by additional fuel and you will be back to zero gain. One list member has argued that any effect of this learning will not be applied at WOT since the computer is not in learn mode. Doesn't the PCM just use the last value in the BLM to adjust WOT fuel? Don't you need to force this BLM cell to 128 (with custom programming) when going WOT to negate any learning effect? Finally, and this is my major question to this list. Has anyone ever considered, or actually built, a voltage adder/subtracter for "massaging" of the O2 signal? From what I can tell, this is the ONLY way to seriously impact fuel curves (short of reprogramming) over the long term AND at WOT. I'm sure you could build something that takes an input voltage and adds or subtracts, say 0-100mv, and send this signal to the PCM. A nice dial setup (adjustable pot) could vary the range (I would assume a +/- 100mv range would work), and have the ability to synchronize two inputs (for a left/right O2 setup) with the one dial. Doable? If so, how? comments? TTYL! Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:28:43 -0800 From: Eric Aos Subject: RE: Port intake design Could we keep this on-list??? I'm starting on the same thing too. Just picked up some of that aluminum 'brazing' rod last night ($19.95 per pound at the local welding supply). > Since we are all talking about the intake for a 4-cylinder, how about > this? I have been toying with the idea of creating a port injection > intake manifold from an aluminum single plane, such as force-efi does. > Has anyone here done this? How does one position the injectors in > the ports? > > Andy > > Write me off list if you'd > like details > as far as drill bit sizes and a more detailed procedure. > > HTH > jw > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:07:38 -0800 From: Vinnie Moscaritolo Subject: Re: FI fuel line At 5:00 AM -0500 3/23/99, Vance Rose wrote: > Have done the same also - works very nice. Saw a post where someone silver > soldered joints in tubing to make custom lines. Only way i've found to get > saginaw ends for my pu. > I wanted to use AN fittings in conjunction with my Holley TBI unit. Since Holley used a non-standard thread (or at least one I couldn't find. maybe they are Saginaw..) on the TBI and I couldnt find an adapter to AN, I cut the Holley connector and silver soldered (welded) it to a steel AN fitting. I also did the same thing to the Holley supplied (Carter?) fuel pump.. Not to change the subject much but speaking of Holley EFI's I have heard that some folks run a primary pump (Holley Red pump) near the tank and then the high pressure pump closer to the TBI. I am curious if this is necessary and how many people actually do this? Vinnie Moscaritolo http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ PGP: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042 - ------------------------------------------------------- Those who hammer their swords into plows, will plow for those who don't." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:04:25 +0000 From: Robert.D.Devlin@xxx. Devlin) Subject: Brake by wire We are a group of final year automotive students from Sheffield Hallam University, England, and are currently researching the theory of a brake by wire system for use in passenger vehicles, as part of a project. This system can be retrofitted to any vehicle currently employing a hydraulic braking system, and does not require ABS to be a prerequisite, however this can be introduced by means of operating software modifications. We would be grateful if anyone with relevant information could contact us, any help would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou. Rob Devlin, Stephen Fry and Andy Somerville. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:17:42 -0500 From: Jemison Richard Subject: RE: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system Thanks Gary. Appreciate the help. rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Derian [SMTP:gderian@xxx.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:14 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system > > The Rochester unit was only offered on small blocks. Check those > diaphragms > and linkages for smooth action. There are some bleed passages in the air > meter which adjust the idle fuel. Check those for dirt, etc. > Gary Derian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jemison Richard > To: > Sent: Tuesday, 23 March, 1999 10:07 AM > Subject: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system > > > > Does anyone have any trouble shooting information, web sites, etc for a > > Rochester Fuel Injection System? Also, does anyone remember the RFI > ever > > being offered on the big block? This is in a '68 Vette and the symptoms > are > > crappy idle and blubbering - any change in settings causes stalling > during > > gear changes. > > > > Anything will help. Thanks > > > > Rick > > jemisonr@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:27:59 -0500 From: "Gwyn Reedy" Subject: RE: Rochester Fuel injection system The Rochester FI was only offered on the small block (283/327). I think it was discontinued in early 1965 when the initial offering of the 396 big block became available in the Vette. Could have still been available, but nobody ordered one after they could get the 396. First FI on the big block was the TBI offered in the late '80s on trucks. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida mailto:mgr@xxx.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Jemison > Richard > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 10:07 AM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE:Rochester Fuel injection system > > > Does anyone have any trouble shooting information, web sites, etc for a > Rochester Fuel Injection System? Also, does anyone remember the RFI ever > being offered on the big block? This is in a '68 Vette and the > symptoms are > crappy idle and blubbering - any change in settings causes stalling during > gear changes. > > Anything will help. Thanks > > Rick > jemisonr@xxx.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:28:07 -0500 From: "Gwyn Reedy" Subject: RE: valve overlap I'm curious (not being picky). Going by the apparent meaning of the phrase 'lobe separation', wouldn't greater lobe separation mean less overlap? Basic is good. Basic answer please. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, Florida mailto:mgr@xxx.com With a normally aspirated (unblown) engine, more valve > overlap, or a larger lobe seperation angle, aids mid to upper rpm hp by > allowing the outward flowing exhaust gasses to create a sort of vacuum in > the combustion chamber when the piston is around tdc and both valves are > open, where this vacuum starts to 'pull' the intake charge in before the > downward moving piston begins to draw. At lower rpms, it creates > that lopey idle we all know and love, but robs low end torque. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:59:35 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: FI fuel line - -----Original Message----- From: Vinnie Moscaritolo To: diy_efi Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:33 PM Subject: Re: FI fuel line Earl's, er maybe russell makes the fitting... I just ran a single Mallory 15PSI Pump by the tank and all is well. Red or Blue for Holley's ain't enough pressure (IMHO) Bruce > > >At 5:00 AM -0500 3/23/99, Vance Rose wrote: >> Have done the same also - works very nice. Saw a post where someone silver >> soldered joints in tubing to make custom lines. Only way i've found to get >> saginaw ends for my pu. >> > > >I wanted to use AN fittings in conjunction with my Holley TBI unit. >Since Holley used a non-standard thread (or at least one I couldn't >find. maybe they are Saginaw..) on the TBI and I couldnt find an >adapter to AN, I cut the Holley connector and silver soldered >(welded) it to a steel AN fitting. I also did the same thing to the >Holley supplied (Carter?) fuel pump.. > >Not to change the subject much but speaking of Holley EFI's I have >heard that some folks run a primary pump (Holley Red pump) near the >tank and then the high pressure pump closer to the TBI. I am curious >if this is necessary and how many people actually do this? > > >Vinnie Moscaritolo >http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ >PGP: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042 >------------------------------------------------------- > >Those who hammer their swords into plows, >will plow for those who don't." > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:02:56 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Heflin To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:44 AM Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? Working with the CCC ecms is just about fruitless. Been there, done that, got numerous T-Shirts. Lots more to be found in the carbs metering calibrations. Bruce > > >On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > >> Wouldn't you want to operate leaner than stociometric for better economy? >> The AIR should divert to the cat when warm and not affect the O2. Part >> throttle ping can be caused by insufficient EGR. >> >> I don't think a simple resistor in series will work as you want. >> >> Gary Derian >> >> >The air (at least on my vehicle) is injected in at the headers, so the >air should affect the O2 readings, at least I cannot see how it would >not affect the O2 readings. > >I would not think a simple resistor would work either, at least not >that low of resistor, and if they are using a resistor, they are >probably getting both open circuit voltage, and voltage through the >resistor/current through the resistor. I don't think with just one >you can properly figure out battery charactistics. > >I like the other idea of measuring the resistance of the O2 heater, >and calibrating that to get egt temps. Then I would need ot get a >pcmcia AD card, and hook that up, and get the aldl data recorder >software working together with that to get one data stream. > > Roger > >> > I have been trying to see what my O2 sensor draws for current. For an >> experiment, ( >> > I am trying to make it run slightly richer across the board ) I installed >> a 10K >> > resistor in series with the O2. At idle with or without the 10K I read >> .57 idle, >> > hot, closed loop. That seems high to me. If I rev it up, the voltage >> drops to >> > closer to .4 to .43. It is somewhat stable, not swinging like I expect. >> Is this a >> > sign of a bad O2? I am using a DVM to measure. It is an GM O2 sensor. >> (BTW, I have >> > swapped O2 to another from my 91 Bonneville and have no changes) >> > >> > What I see is a 1.5mV drop across the 10K resistor, and when I rev it, it >> increases >> > to 22mV. This is a very small amount of current, it this to be expected? >> > >> > Can someone give me some advice on this system? >> > >> > The car is a 85 Cutlass, CCC, 77 Olds 350. The AIR and Cat have been >> removed (reason >> > I am trying to richen). The car runs pretty well. But when hot there is >> a nasty >> > part throttle ping, light throttle, when at WOT or heavy throttle, or at >> very light >> > throttle, no problem. I have been told that if the AIR system is removed >> this will >> > cause it to be lean, as the O2 is expecting a certain amount of air to be >> present, so >> > it would lean it out then. >> > >> > EGR is working properly. I am using an 82 307 intake with the improved >> EGR tube >> > extensions. >> > >> > Am I missing something obvious? Will the AIR removal or missing Cat cause >> this >> > problems? >> > >> > Thanks for any help! >> > Tom Martin >> > >> > >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:13:09 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Port intake design - -----Original Message----- From: Eric Aos To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:46 PM Subject: RE: Port intake design I'd like to follow along, but this really ain't the list for that. Any one wanna host a mechanical related list?. Bruce >Could we keep this on-list??? I'm starting on the same thing too. Just >picked up some of that aluminum 'brazing' rod last night ($19.95 per >pound at the local welding supply). > >> Since we are all talking about the intake for a 4-cylinder, how about >> this? I have been toying with the idea of creating a port injection >> intake manifold from an aluminum single plane, such as force-efi does. >> Has anyone here done this? How does one position the injectors in >> the ports? >> >> Andy >> > > > >> Write me off list if you'd >> like details >> as far as drill bit sizes and a more detailed procedure. >> >> HTH >> jw >> > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #189 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".