DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, March 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 192 In this issue: RE: DIY-EFI References RE: Rochester Fuel injection system RE: PWM fuel pump OBDII to PC Re: EFI Intake Conversion (2 of 2) Re: Injector Math Re: DIY-EFI References Re: valve overlap Re: MPH Diacom reading Re: OBDII to PC Re: List Topics... Re: EFI Intake Conversion (2 of 2) Re: MPH Diacom reading A '747 for ignition only Re: diy flow bench Cams/EFI Re: A '747 for ignition only Re: Cams/EFI Re: valve overlap Protel help... Re: OBDII to PC Re: diy flow bench Re: O2 Sensor current? Re: valve overlap Re: O2 Sensor current? Re: Port intake design Re: EFI Intake Conversion (1 of 2) Re: valve overlap [admin] digest error... Re: EFI Intake Conversion (1 of 2) Re: [admin] digest error... Re: [admin] digest error... Re: O2 Sensor current? Re: injector manifold design Re: MPH Diacom reading Re: EFI Intake Conversion (1 of 2) Re: A '747 for ignition only Re: O2 Sensor current? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:29:57 -0500 From: Jemison Richard Subject: RE: DIY-EFI References Thanks alot Tony. Really appreciate it. Kinda out of my element. I've seen these (I'm old enough to have seen them new! ha!) but never really dealt with one before. Ah, another life experience. Actually, if I get some information on the little bugger might be fun! rick > -----Original Message----- > From: spence family [SMTP:tspence@xxx.Edu] > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 10:29 PM > To: wilcutts@xxx.edu > Subject: DIY-EFI References > > "GM Fuel Injection Diagnosis" GM training publication 16009.10-6 (cost > $25)is a good reference for GM EFI information. This is a GM factory > training manual and is available to the public. > > Order from: > > MSX International > 1425 Pacific Dr. > Auburn Hills, MI 48326 > Phone (800) 393-4831 > Fax (248)377-1510 > > The book was updated in 1998 so it covers the latest systems as well as > early TBI. This book has lots of "Good Stuff" and is specific to GM. > Includes sensor calibrations, specific engine information, theory of > operations, DIS systems, and actual numbers!. 200 pages of stuff! > Would be very helpful for DIY EFI's, or just understanding the way GM > does it. > > They will send you a catalog for free! There are many other interesting > titles. They have both training manuals and instructor's guides for > each title.. I got the manual... > > Tony Spence > Electrical Engineer > New Mexico State University > > Just interested in a deeper understanding of GM fuel injection and have > a thirst for information. found the diy_efi page very interesting. > thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:49:56 -0500 From: Jemison Richard Subject: RE: Rochester Fuel injection system Shannen, That would be terrific. At this point I can't get enough good info. No rush. I really appreciate your help. rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen@xxx.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 7:30 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Rochester Fuel injection system > > Sorry, you're out of luck. According to my 63 vette manual, those > symptoms don't exist. > Actually, if you'd like some pages scanned, will try to accomodate. > There are 55 in all, so there will be several files. I have no idea > how similar 68 units are to 63. > Shannen > > Jemison Richard wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any trouble shooting information, web sites, etc for a > > Rochester Fuel Injection System? Also, does anyone remember the RFI > ever > > being offered on the big block? This is in a '68 Vette and the symptoms > are > > crappy idle and blubbering - any change in settings causes stalling > during > > gear changes. > > > > Anything will help. Thanks > > > > Rick > > jemisonr@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:36:14 +1000 From: Wayne Macdonald Subject: RE: PWM fuel pump - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7652.B0BDD7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How fast could the fuel pump change pressure ?. I was wondering if you could you use a PIC or HC11 to alter fuel = pressure based on RPM and TPS to compensate for changes in the fuel = requirements. Wayne. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7652.B0BDD7E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjUOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA EgAAAFJFOiBQV00gZnVlbCBwdW1wAJMFAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcDABgAFQAkAA4AAwA7AQEggAMADgAA AM8HAwAYABQAMwANAAMASAEBCYABACEAAAA0NzVGMkI5NjQ4RENEMjExODBBOTAwMTA0QjY0RDU4 NQD9BgEDkAYAAAMAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAA QAA5ADAn/YXqdb4BHgBwAAEAAAASAAAAUkU6IFBXTSBmdWVsIHB1bXAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAAB vnXqhfuWK19I3EgR0oCpABBLZNWFAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFgAAAHdt Y2RvbmFsQGh1dGNoLmNvbS5hdQAAAAMABhBBR5xcAwAHEKAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABIT1dGQVNU Q09VTERUSEVGVUVMUFVNUENIQU5HRVBSRVNTVVJFP0lXQVNXT05ERVJJTkdJRllPVUNPVUxEWU9V VVNFQVBJQ09SSEMxMVRPQUxURVJGVUVMUFJFU1NVUkVCQVNFAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAdwEAAHMBAACe AgAATFpGdaqTAgL/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCgzIz Ew9mNAPFAgBwckJxEiJzdGVtAoM1EQ96aGVsAyBEbGddAoB9CoAIzwnZOxk/Mjw1NQKACoENsQtg bmcYMTAzFCALA2xpM142DfALVRLyDAFjAEAgpEhvB+BmYRZgIAWg4HVsZCB0F8AesApQ4QMgcHVt cB8AEcAcQDcfkBXwB5BzCHAfkD8u8QqFSSB3HtAh8AIgBIHJC4BnIAaQIHkIYB8FBSMSdRHwIGEg UElEQyAFsUhDMR5gdHpvJCBsFnAFwB+0INZijx7QCYAkgAOgUlBNJCDxImAgVFAF8CURBaAgIPkJ 8HNhFnAesAWxIFQEIMcLgB9oGUBxdWkZQAeAeQIwcy4LRhQiDAEV8G/9FnBjBUAKhysqLGgLGR3Z 4FdheW5lIWYcrytvvy3VMrwwnx23K/0YYQA20AADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAQAAHMEAqJjzkdb4B QAAIMEAqJjzkdb4BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAALa9 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7652.B0BDD7E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:01:42 +1000 From: Wayne Macdonald Subject: OBDII to PC - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7652.B35376E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I can find a diy circuit to connect an OBDII ISO-9141 to the serial port of a PC ?. TIA Wayne. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7652.B35376E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjoOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAUAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAWwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZXNsLmVu Zy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZXNsLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgAC MAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB8AAABkaXlfZWZpQGVzbC5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5l ZHUAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACEAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlc2wuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3Rh dGUuZWR1JwAAAAACAQswAQAAACQAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARVNMLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVE VQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAuVFAQSAAQAMAAAAT0JESUkgdG8gUEMA HQMBBYADAA4AAADPBwMAGQAAAAEAKgAEACEBASCAAwAOAAAAzwcDABgAFgA6ABsAAwBfAQEJgAEA IQAAADRENUYyQjk2NDhEQ0QyMTE4MEE5MDAxMDRCNjRENTg1AAoHAQOQBgBwAgAAFAAAAAsAIwAA AAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAYNZD2P51vgEeAHAAAQAAAAwA AABPQkRJSSB0byBQQwACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvnX+2EKWK19O3EgR0oCpABBLZNWFAAAeAB4MAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFgAAAHdtY2RvbmFsQGh1dGNoLmNvbS5hdQAAAAMABhBE011X AwAHEFsAAAAeAAgQAQAAAFwAAABET0VTQU5ZT05FS05PV1dIRVJFSUNBTkZJTkRBRElZQ0lSQ1VJ VFRPQ09OTkVDVEFOT0JESUlJU08tOTE0MVRPVEhFU0VSSUFMUE9SVE9GQVBDP1RJQVdBWU5FAAIB CRABAAAAAAEAAPwAAAB/AQAATFpGdc9qMWn/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4y BgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg0YzA8UCAHBycRIicyh0ZW0CgzQPemhlomwDIERsZwKAfQqAPwjPCdkCgAqB DbELYG5n+DEwMxQgCwoS8gHQFtAWbweRAHB5AiBlIGs0bm8H4HcWkBgQIElUIGMDkWYLgGQboCAI ZGl5HOBpcmN1cmkFQHRvHOACIBvwY0MFQAORT0JESRzQSYBTTy05MTQxHlKadBaQIBHwByIgcBex CCBvZh1xUEMgP8YuCoUKhVRJQQqGAZFwIFdheRvwIfYXMQABJOADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAQAAH MHD3jAL2db4BQAAIMHD3jAL2db4BHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAl5Q= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7652.B35376E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:19:37 -0500 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: EFI Intake Conversion (2 of 2) On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:36:55 -0500 > From: Frederic Breitwieser > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: EFI Intake Conversion (2 of 2) > > > Could we keep this on-list??? I'm starting on the same thing too. Just > > picked up some of that aluminum 'brazing' rod last night ($19.95 per > > pound at the local welding supply). > > I must admit that the use of paper templates and scotch tape is a good > idea. I made two manifolds before checking the fit closely enough, which > obviously is a waste of time, material, and money. I hate to admit to > stupidity, however check each and every step twice to be sure you have it > right, if you haven't made a much of intakes before. Its a lot more > challenging than I'm describing. In fact, the third manifold I made for the > Buick V6 was entirely out of cardboard from the back of legal pads taped > together, using corragated box cardboard for the head plates and the bottom > plates. I worked at a aluminum boat building shop and we used 1/4" box board ( the stuff that cheap furniture uses for backs) to make templates. this was a bit easier then paper. cool post > > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) > > > > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:41:47 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Injector Math I don't know the exact timing specs. What works best depends on the extent of the intake/exhaust tuning. A highly tuned system on both ends would benefit the most by lots of overlap. Without variable timing, the settings are a compromise. I would expect that knowing variable timing is available, the idle setting would have less overlap than the standard setting and the mid rpm setting would have more. I was referring to the European spec BMW M3 engine. It is a 3.2 liter (200 cubic inches) L6 with 321 hp at 6800 rpm and 253 lb-ft torque with a very broad torque curve. This is net power! Of course, its a pretty expensive engine, 6 throttles, bundle of snakes 6 into 2 exhaust, etc. Boosted engines have plenty of torque without the extra complication of variable timing. Jaguar, for instance, uses variable cam timing on its new 4.0 liter V-8 in the atmo version but does not use it on the supercharged version. Interestingly, Porsche ran into a noise problem during the development of the 2.5 liter flat 6 used in the Boxster. It seem that during the high overlap, mid rpm range, the intake pulsations were so strong they were causing vibration in the wall of the plenum chamber which radiated a considerable amount of noise. They added thickness to the plenum, which is molded plastic, to stop the noise. Gary Derian > > > Thank-you Gary! One question though. I kinda figured that the "negative > overlap" cam title referred to reduced overlap, during the period which both > the intake and exhaust valves would be simultaneously off their seats, near > TDC. Did the "n.o." cams go to the extreme of actual "zero", or > "negative", seat-seat overlap? Or, just significantly reduced overlap > versus their naturally aspirated counterparts? > > Thanks; > Walt. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:02:16 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: DIY-EFI References - -----Original Message----- From: spence family To: wilcutts@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 1:18 AM Subject: DIY-EFI References Gee, never talked to friendlier people wanting to take my money, hehehe Bruce >"GM Fuel Injection Diagnosis" GM training publication 16009.10-6 (cost >$25)is a good reference for GM EFI information. This is a GM factory >training manual and is available to the public. >Order from: >MSX International >1425 Pacific Dr. >Auburn Hills, MI 48326 >Phone (800) 393-4831 >Fax (248)377-1510 >The book was updated in 1998 so it covers the latest systems as well as >early TBI. This book has lots of "Good Stuff" and is specific to GM. >Includes sensor calibrations, specific engine information, theory of >operations, DIS systems, and actual numbers!. 200 pages of stuff! >Would be very helpful for DIY EFI's, or just understanding the way GM >does it. >They will send you a catalog for free! There are many other interesting >titles. They have both training manuals and instructor's guides for >each title.. I got the manual... >Tony Spence >Electrical Engineer >New Mexico State University >Just interested in a deeper understanding of GM fuel injection and have >a thirst for information. found the diy_efi page very interesting. >thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:58:40 -0600 From: silent50@xxx.com Subject: Re: valve overlap Check out the lastest Muscle Mustangs, there is an article on solenoid activated valves. Also mentioned is the use of AC and higher voltages in the future. Imagine opening/closing valves with electronic >solenoids, and computer control. Infinitely adjustable/variable >timing >curves for the entire RPM spectrum! > >Walt. > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:55:30 -0600 From: Carmine Subject: Re: MPH Diacom reading rr wrote: > > Have you checked that the VSS is working? > > BobR. > > Carmine wrote: > >Does anyone know why the MPH reading from C3 ECM is always 0 MPH? > > > >Carmine > > If the VSS is not working shouldn't I get a code 24 set? The ECM is not detecting any. Carmine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:59:15 -0500 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: OBDII to PC Best bet is search semiconductor manufacturers web sites for ISO-9141. If they have a chip, most likely they will have an app note or spec sheet with the suggested circuit. - -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Macdonald To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:09 AM Subject: OBDII to PC >Does anyone know where I can find a diy circuit to connect an OBDII ISO-9141 to the serial port of a PC ?. > >TIA > Wayne. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:11:07 -0600 (EST) From: eclark@xxx.com Subject: Re: List Topics... On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Orin Eman wrote: > And finally, try to set your mailer for plain text only. > HTML email is practically unreadable to me and some others. > Plain text with a html attachment containing the same text > is a waste of bandwidth IMO. > > Orin, list admin. I agree, this has bothered me since I started reading the list. I dont use a text based mail reader so html is useless. - -Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:17:27 +0000 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: EFI Intake Conversion (2 of 2) > I worked at a aluminum boat building shop and we used 1/4" box board > ( the stuff that cheap furniture uses for backs) to make templates. > this was a bit easier then paper. Yeah, for the head plates that would have been a great solution... time to find some old furniture LOL > cool post Thanks! - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:51:30 -0500 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: MPH Diacom reading Check what mode the Diacom is running in... Sometimes some data is not available in certain modes. - -----Original Message----- From: Carmine To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 10:41 AM Subject: Re: MPH Diacom reading >rr wrote: >> >> Have you checked that the VSS is working? >> >> BobR. >> >> Carmine wrote: >> >Does anyone know why the MPH reading from C3 ECM is always 0 MPH? >> > >> >Carmine >> > > >If the VSS is not working shouldn't I get a code 24 set? >The ECM is not detecting any. > >Carmine > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:03:54 -0800 From: rr Subject: A '747 for ignition only Bruce, I remember that you had mentioned this before. Whether a '747 could be used for a computer ignition system only. As my install is right at the point of needing an EFI fuel system. And the carb system is still in place, I think I'll try it out. Off the top of my head, the one thing that needs to be done, it to zero the error bit map for all the O2 stuff. Burn the prom with some spark tables, and try it. Anything else you can think of? BobR. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:22:16 -0800 From: Eric Aos Subject: Re: diy flow bench >Anybody out there who has the > Popular Hotrod > Articles on a diy flowbench? Apparently it's October and > November 1993. I have them at home. If I can remember tonight I'll scan them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:13:18 -0800 From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Subject: Cams/EFI My $.02 on the cam thing, for forced-induction: 1) Large lobe center angle (114+) 2) Longer EXHAUST duration (of have larger exhaust valves!) 3) High lift is fine To appease the list admin, here's an EFI related topic that's related to cams: My software for the Electromotive TEC II has a "blend" feature that is meant to smooth out the idle in radical cam equipped engines. As we all know, Speed Density isn't the greatest EFI method for radical cam IDLE. So, the "PAF Blend" software can use a percentage of the TPS signal and a percentage of the MAP signal to "blend" in a smooth idle. Do other equal price range aftermarket systems have this feature? I have 268 cams in my car (~224 duration @xxx.050" check), so they're a little bit on the "hot" side of things (for a street VW). Exhaust duration is slightly more than intake, and lift is ~11.5mm or so (~.452"). When tuned right, they scream from 4.5k-7.2k rpm...and the Schrick variable geometry intake manifold makes up for the low end torque (between 3k-4k rpm). Does this "blend" feature work? Idle hunts a bit, but I think it has to do w/ the lack of an IAC valve. Have to bump idle up to about 900 rpm (up from 650 rpm), and tweak a lot of little variables in the software. I think it would work great in a big V8 NA engine w/ a radical overlap cam. Food for thought...for you V8 guys. I'm sure you guys have been there, done that though... Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:52:47 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: A '747 for ignition only - -----Original Message----- From: rr To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:55 AM Subject: A '747 for ignition only >Bruce, I remember that you had mentioned this before. Whether a '747 >could be used for a computer ignition system only. As my install is >right at the point of needing an EFI fuel system. And the carb system >is still in place, I think I'll try it out. >Off the top of my head, the one thing that needs to be done, it to >zero the error bit map for all the O2 stuff. Burn the prom with >some spark tables, and try it. >Anything else you can think of? On a CCC: You'll need the right MAP, TPS, Seems likely to be shareable. ESC, and KS probably different. You'd have to call Chev or Parts House for accurate info., I'm not sure. For the intial fire it up to see of it runs, I'd disable all the malfunction flags. Set the timing, and immediately try a chip with like you said 13-44-45 disabled, and closed loop/learn temps set to FF. Depending on what you actually doing, you'll need the fuel pump signals wired in. None CCC: gonna need a TPS, in addition to the above.. Bruce > >BobR. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:03:50 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Cams/EFI - -----Original Message----- From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: Cams/EFI 747s you can go open loop at idle if ya want. Change MAP filtering rates. I gotz 110dCL, 270 by 224@xxx. >My $.02 on the cam thing, for forced-induction: >1) Large lobe center angle (114+) >2) Longer EXHAUST duration (of have larger exhaust valves!) Been there done that, ran better with stock exhuast sized valves. Granted diesel, but 60PSI boost.. >3) High lift is fine >My software for the Electromotive TEC II has a "blend" feature that is meant to >smooth out the idle in radical cam equipped engines. As we all know, Speed >Density isn't the greatest EFI method for radical cam IDLE. Oh... Bruce So, the "PAF Blend" >software can use a percentage of the TPS signal and a percentage of the MAP >signal to "blend" in a smooth idle. Do other equal price range aftermarket >systems have this feature? I have 268 cams in my car (~224 duration @xxx.050" >check), so they're a little bit on the "hot" side of things (for a street VW). >Exhaust duration is slightly more than intake, and lift is ~11.5mm or so >(~.452"). When tuned right, they scream from 4.5k-7.2k rpm...and the Schrick >variable geometry intake manifold makes up for the low end torque (between 3k-4k >rpm). >Does this "blend" feature work? Idle hunts a bit, but I think it has to do w/ >the lack of an IAC valve. Have to bump idle up to about 900 rpm (up from 650 >rpm), and tweak a lot of little variables in the software. I think it would >work great in a big V8 NA engine w/ a radical overlap cam. Food for >thought...for you V8 guys. I'm sure you guys have been there, done that >though... >Jason >'93 SLC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:06:33 -0500 From: Dan Llewellyn2 Subject: Re: valve overlap One benefit of some overlap on turbocharged cars is that if the intake charge with fuel is ignited before the turbocharger, then you increase boost pressure rise time. You also start shooting flames out the tailpipe, but you do get boost more quickly. If you want a faster boost response, some overlap helps at the expense of some power. I think. Dan L ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:15:03 -0500 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Protel help... Anyone useing Protel for Schematic capture and PCB design please email me privately... I have a question about footprints! Thanks, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:28:52 +0000 From: xxalexx@xxx.com Subject: Re: OBDII to PC Recomended circuits are in SAE J2201 and ISO-9141-2 publications. Consists of a comparator and a transistor. I can supply a kit for $22 Will post a schematic in near future. Alex C. Peper OBD-2 developer http://www.obd-2.com > Does anyone know where I can find a diy circuit to connect an OBDII ISO-9141 to the serial port of a PC ?. > > TIA > Wayne. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:11:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Subject: Re: diy flow bench > > http://www.htrd.com/kem/flowbench/ > > Thanks, that's a good start. Anybody out there who has the Popular Hotrod > Articles on a diy flowbench? Apparently it's October and November 1993. I No, but I've got Car Craft Aug '82. A lot has changed since then but a lot hasn't. Maybe the scans will be legible for ya. http://www.acesag.auburn.edu/~gparmer/flowbench - -greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:00:18 -0500 From: Teller.John@xxx.com Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? O2 Sensors do not draw current (excepting the heater in a heated 02 sensor), they are in fact a voltage source. Not only that, they are a high impedance voltage source and therefore do not put out much current at all. The voltage drop through a 10K resistor is going to be negligible due to the miniscule currents (less than a microAmp) involved. To figure the voltage drop accross your 10K resistor, use Ohm's law (E=I*R) where I = 0.0000002 Amps and R = 10000 Ohms for a voltage drop of 0.02 Volts. If you want to change the output voltage of one of these devices, you probably would be better off using an op amp circuit with a gain factor less than 1. Any loading of the output of these devices will at best provide erroneous readings and at worst destroy the sensor. See the Forrest M. Mims books which are (or at least used to be) available from Radio Shock for some examples of these circuits. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:47:58 +1000 From: Matt Boland Subject: Re: valve overlap silent50@xxx.com wrote: > Check out the lastest Muscle Mustangs, there is an article on solenoid > activated valves. Where would I find the Muscle Mustangs ? - -- Matt Boland m.boland@xxx.au CSIRO Division of Exploration and Mining Phone: +61 7 3212-4482 PO Box 883 Kenmore Fax: +61 7 3212-4455 QLD 4069 Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:45:55 -0500 From: Wen Yen Chan Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? Hello, A while back I tried to offset the reading from my O2 sensor with a simple op-amp circuit. The circuit worked fine but the ECU always thought the sensor was hot (even after a cold restart). It seems that the Honda ECU I was playing with pulled a small current from the sensor to check if it was lit. When my circuit was added the ECU saw the low output impedence of the op-amp and just assumed the sensor was hot. Wen On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 Teller.John@xxx.com wrote: > O2 Sensors do not draw current (excepting the heater in a heated 02 > sensor), they are in fact a voltage source. Not only that, they are a high > impedance voltage source and therefore do not put out much current at all. > The voltage drop through a 10K resistor is going to be negligible due to > the miniscule currents (less than a microAmp) involved. To figure the > voltage drop accross your 10K resistor, use Ohm's law (E=I*R) where I = > 0.0000002 Amps and R = 10000 Ohms for a voltage drop of 0.02 Volts. > > If you want to change the output voltage of one of these devices, you > probably would be better off using an op amp circuit with a gain factor > less than 1. Any loading of the output of these devices will at best > provide erroneous readings and at worst destroy the sensor. See the > Forrest M. Mims books which are (or at least used to be) available from > Radio Shock for some examples of these circuits. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:17:53 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: Port intake design Hey Bruce. I thought this was pretty god efi stuff. Alot of us are starting from scratch, not just modifing a factory system. Whatcha' think? jw On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > I'd like to follow along, but this really ain't the list for that. > Any one wanna host a mechanical related list?. > Bruce > > > >Could we keep this on-list??? I'm starting on the same thing too. Just > >picked up some of that aluminum 'brazing' rod last night ($19.95 per > >pound at the local welding supply). > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:27:02 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: EFI Intake Conversion (1 of 2) This is essentially what I did as well. Injectors strainght up, made my own bosses from 6061 tubing (27/32 O.D., why that size I don't know, may be it was supossed to be 7/8). The holes I drilled in the intake were also 27/32. I also wound up machining/grinding away most of the boss. I finished to inside of the boss with a 14mm ream and lots of cutting fluid to make a smooth cut. HTH jw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:58:04 -0500 From: Matt S Bower Subject: Re: valve overlap There was and article close to a year ago in AI about solenoid valves and higher voltages which would go along way toward making it a reality. I also worked with a ex tech from GM who was around the aurora cam less prototype that is in the AI article. He said on advantage to the engine beyond variable cam geometry was with plenty of valve clearance and engine position they could open valves on seven cylinders and start the engine with out a starter. silent50@xxx.com wrote: > > Check out the lastest Muscle Mustangs, there is an article on solenoid > activated valves. Also mentioned is the use of AC and higher voltages in > the future. > > Imagine opening/closing valves with electronic > >solenoids, and computer control. Infinitely adjustable/variable > >timing > >curves for the entire RPM spectrum! > > > >Walt. > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:32:24 -0500 From: jsg@xxx.edu Subject: [admin] digest error... An error in the computer upgrade for efi332 has resulted in the loss of a few digest. I'm traveling now, but may have fixed the problem. I will look at it more closely on Friday. The archive on the web page should have all the mailings. john ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:28:10 +0000 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: EFI Intake Conversion (1 of 2) > own bosses from 6061 tubing (27/32 O.D., why that size I don't know, may > be it was supossed to be 7/8). The holes I drilled in the intake were Nope, prolly 27/32 is right for that tubing if you are talking inside diameter - that's the right hole to drill if you want to tap the tubing to 7/8, therefore that tubing was for tie rods, suspension pieces, etc. Neat little useless fact :) > I finished to inside of the boss with a 14mm ream and lots of cutting > fluid to make a smooth cut. Yeah, I ground a lot off too top and bottom. Not exactly the way I want, but all eight injectors are the same height, so right or wrong, its consistant. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com 1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab (soon to be twin turbo 440) 2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: Orin Eman Subject: Re: [admin] digest error... diy_efi digests #189 and 190 landed in my Bounce folder. I don't know if any others were lost. I still have them if John wants to send them manually. Orin. > An error in the computer upgrade for efi332 has resulted in the loss of > a few digest. I'm traveling now, but may have fixed the problem. > I will look at it more closely on Friday. The archive on the web > page should have all the mailings. > john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: Orin Eman Subject: Re: [admin] digest error... diy_efi digests #189 and 190 landed in my Bounce folder. I don't know if any others were lost. I still have them if John wants to send them manually. Orin. > An error in the computer upgrade for efi332 has resulted in the loss of > a few digest. I'm traveling now, but may have fixed the problem. > I will look at it more closely on Friday. The archive on the web > page should have all the mailings. > john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:47:26 EST From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? In a message dated 99-03-23 10:40:34 EST, you write: >The car is a 85 Cutlass, CCC, 77 Olds 350. The AIR and Cat have been removed >(reason >I am trying to richen). The car runs pretty well. But when hot there is a >nasty >part throttle ping, light throttle, when at WOT or heavy throttle, or at very >light >throttle, no problem. I have been told that if the AIR system is removed >this will >cause it to be lean, as the O2 is expecting a certain amount of air to be >present, so >it would lean it out then. > > >From what I remember, these cars had tons of spark advance at light ( cruse speeds) throttle. The egr may be opening, but are you getting enough flow? These cars use a exhause backpressure sensing EGR, pulling the cat would affect operation since the BP sensor trims EGR flow. Harold ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:47:11 EST From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: Re: injector manifold design On a engine with two valves per intake port and one inj per port, why not aim the injector towards the cylinder that's lean? Might not be directly towards the lean cyl, just slightly towards it. Make a 2 or 3 piece adjustable injector boss that will allow for the spray pattern to be adjusted left to right and up and down. The inj mounting would have bushing "A" drilled off center this would fit inside Bushing "B", "B" would be drilled diagonal bushing "C" would be welded to the intake. All bushings would have a O ring seal, set screw, and some way to turn the bushing. Another solution would be to have a o ring large enough to allow the inj to swivel. Harold ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:54:46 -0800 From: rr Subject: Re: MPH Diacom reading Yes, you probably should, as long as that error code is not disabled... BobR. Carmine wrote: > > rr wrote: > > > > Have you checked that the VSS is working? > > > > BobR. > > > > Carmine wrote: > > >Does anyone know why the MPH reading from C3 ECM is always 0 MPH? > > > > > >Carmine > > > > > If the VSS is not working shouldn't I get a code 24 set? > The ECM is not detecting any. > > Carmine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:10:53 -0800 (PST) From: andy quaas Subject: Re: EFI Intake Conversion (1 of 2) Does anyone have dimensions for various injectors? I know that there are a few designs, but what are the differences? If a bud of mine has 8 ford injectors, will they fit a GM injector manifold, etc, etc? Andy - --- James Weiler wrote: > This is essentially what I did as well. Injectors > strainght up, made my > own bosses from 6061 tubing (27/32 O.D., why that > size I don't know, may > be it was supossed to be 7/8). The holes I drilled > in the intake were > also 27/32. I also wound up machining/grinding away > most of the boss. > I finished to inside of the boss with a 14mm ream and > lots of cutting > fluid to make a smooth cut. > > HTH > jw > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:07:35 -0800 From: rr Subject: Re: A '747 for ignition only Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: rr > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:55 AM > Subject: A '747 for ignition only > > >Bruce, I remember that you had mentioned this before. Whether a '747 > >could be used for a computer ignition system only. As my install is > >right at the point of needing an EFI fuel system. And the carb system As for needing just the EFI fuel system, I was actually meaning, the pump/filter/lines to the TBI. I have an entire '747 system from a truck currently installed in/on the engine/vehicle. Only take a minute to pull the TBI and throw the carb back on. > >is still in place, I think I'll try it out. > >Off the top of my head, the one thing that needs to be done, it to > >zero the error bit map for all the O2 stuff. Burn the prom with > >some spark tables, and try it. > >Anything else you can think of? > > On a CCC: > You'll need the right MAP, > TPS, Seems likely to be shareable. TPS, hmmm, that I'll lose removing the TBI. Maybe it won't matter much, I should still get some PE due to the MAP. > ESC, and KS probably different. You'd have to call Chev or Parts House > for accurate info., I'm not sure. > For the intial fire it up to see of it runs, I'd disable all the malfunction > flags. > Set the timing, and immediately try a chip with like you said 13-44-45 > disabled, and closed loop/learn temps set to FF. Yep, good idea's here. > Depending on what you actually doing, you'll need the fuel pump signals > wired in. Done. > > None CCC: > gonna need a TPS, in addition to the above.. > Bruce > > > >BobR. I'm thinking that the main spark table is RPM vs MAP, it's the little things that might mess me up. I'll let everyone know how this goes... Yea, I'm gonna try it. Why not! Gotta' learn somehow. BobR. Ya' sure Doc's not up for a ride under the hood with a timing light? LOL - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:14:55 -0800 From: rr Subject: Re: O2 Sensor current? Ah yes, the ECM bias's the O2 sensor to 450mV, then looks to see when it starts to change from that value. When it does, the sensor is coming alive, up to temp. You should be able to get around this by putting a large value resister in series with the op-amp output. Maybe a 1 or 2 Meg Ohm. This will then simulate the output impedence of the O2 sensor. BobR. Wen Yen Chan wrote: > > Hello, > > A while back I tried to offset the reading from my O2 sensor with a simple > op-amp circuit. The circuit worked fine but the ECU always thought the > sensor was hot (even after a cold restart). It seems that the Honda ECU I > was playing with pulled a small current from the sensor to check if it was > lit. When my circuit was added the ECU saw the low output impedence of the > op-amp and just assumed the sensor was hot. > > Wen > > On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 Teller.John@xxx.com wrote: > > > O2 Sensors do not draw current (excepting the heater in a heated 02 > > sensor), they are in fact a voltage source. Not only that, they are a high > > impedance voltage source and therefore do not put out much current at all. > > The voltage drop through a 10K resistor is going to be negligible due to > > the miniscule currents (less than a microAmp) involved. To figure the > > voltage drop accross your 10K resistor, use Ohm's law (E=I*R) where I = > > 0.0000002 Amps and R = 10000 Ohms for a voltage drop of 0.02 Volts. > > > > If you want to change the output voltage of one of these devices, you > > probably would be better off using an op amp circuit with a gain factor > > less than 1. Any loading of the output of these devices will at best > > provide erroneous readings and at worst destroy the sensor. See the > > Forrest M. Mims books which are (or at least used to be) available from > > Radio Shock for some examples of these circuits. > > > > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #192 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".