DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, April 3 1999 Volume 04 : Number 206 In this issue: 16188051 IC contents Camshafts RE: Camshaft Selection Re: 16188051 IC contents Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. BUICK ECM NUMBER AND FIERO TURBO PIPES 1227148 Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Turbo site under construction Injector driver question... Re: 1227148 Re: Camshafts Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: Injector driver question... Re: 1227148 Re: Injector driver question... Re: Diesels Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: Diesels Re: Injector driver question... Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: Injector driver question... Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Found some air filter flow data Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: Found some air filter flow data ABS Wheel sensor signal generator See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 08:53:36 -0500 From: Dave Hempstead Subject: 16188051 IC contents I don't usually like to cross-post stuff, but I've posted this to both the DIY_EFI and the GMECM, since it might be of interest to both. I received a PCM for experiments. THANK YOU SCOTT KNIGHT. It is out of a '94 Caprice. It is the same number as my PCM from a '95 Camaro. Here is what is in it: (I've only listed IC's, excepting the power IC's, and the numbers printed on the boards). Contents of 16188051 PCM Red, Black connector PC board PC board numbers: 188A584 P5 188B584 P7 (??) 188A584 P1 Large IC's 185 16156598 C94R KQEVB9347F 68pin PLCC A33801 66285 Delco 466 68pin PLCC 185 16166079 084G KQEUT9402L 68pin PLCC Flash AN28F512 32pin PLCC 609 3700518 CP07700 129170 9350N NCR 52pin PLCC 609 3700521 CP06893 144436 9339N NCR 28pin PLCC 40319732 27474 466 28pin PLCC Smaller IC's 014 P37AP 73098 14pin SOP 014 M39AG 89551 14pin SOP 014 M39AK 89551 14pin SOP 12.5829 crystal - ----------------------------------------------------- Blue, Grey connector PC board PC board numbers: 165D553 P5 165D553 P1 Large IC's 185 16156598 C94R KQEWA9343K 68pin PLCC A35207 66285 Delco 466 68pin PLCC Flash AN28F512 32pin PLCC 40339531 64606 466 28pin PLCC ALDL interface? 014 S38BD 34987 20pin PLCC O2 amp?? 014 S38DK 34987 20pin PLCC O2 amp?? Smaller IC's N57245 P37AK 14pin SOP N45153 P38AT 16pin SOP N45153 P38AR 16pin SOP 014 P39BB 45153 16pin SOP 014 M37DL 65422 8pin SOP 014 M37AP 73098 14pin SOP 16127472 889980Q Hnn9344 Philips 14pin SOP 12.5829 crystal Knock module 16188309 1084028 Next step, id'ing each chip. (I've gotta believe 2 of the 68pin PLCC packages are the 68HC11F1 and the IO with RAM chips) Dave Hempstead ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 15:12:52 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: Camshafts Spend 20 bucks. Buy the best de-bs'ing and debunking book on cams ever written - "How to build and modify Chevrolet Small-Block V-8 Camshafts and valvetrains" Dave Vizard ( Forward by Harvey Crane sr) Motor Books International ISBN0-87938-595-2. Its 95 per cent cams and valve theory practice etc and a smattering of chevy specific. It will prevent you from swallowing all the rotten fish from Denmark on the internet - unless of course - you like bull feces. For example - Rapid Leak Down Lifters such as by Rhodes and others do not appreciably change the cam profile on opening and to a lesser extent lift. They do change the closing profile because of the "leak down" collapse. Thus the effect is actually to change the closing profile and duration. They also don't do the magic attributed to them. But they are helpful in the right situation. He goes on to describe the leakdown tester he build, the results of the tests between various manufacturers including Rhodes, Competion Cams, and Crane. Then, silly him, actually describes how to pick a leak down lifter cam based on how it actually works. Of course, with all due respect to Dave Vizard, he obviously hasn't thought about "fill in the blank" because I have neglected to quote that part of this excellent tome on camshafts. So spank me silly. Buy the book - argue with the author - I actually read the book and had my questions answered. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:15:41 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: Camshaft Selection >-> If you wanna spend a bit of money, and want more bottom end than you >-> have now, and also a bunch more top end, convert the puppy to >-> hydraulic rollers, with a rather short duration, but moderate lift >-> cam, with fairly wide lobe centers. Maybe 202/208 @xxx.485 >-> lift, (I , then e in both cases) with 112 degree lobe centers. > > Those duration and lobe center numbers are right in there for stock >flat tappet cams. All you've done is increase lift, which could be done >more cheaply by swapping to high ratio rockers if available. Agreed that high ratio rockers would increase lift and valve velocities, but the rollers also have the potential to increase the area under the flanks of the valve curve --and number of degrees fairly close to the max lift -- even more than the high ratio rockers can. That was the whole idea of these specs. get valve timing about like a stocker, but area under the valve curves more like what you would get with, say, a Comp Cams 260 H, flat tappet cam. Without the screwing around with the funny lifters. Why--low end depends pretty much on timing, mid range depends a lot more on area under the valve lift curve. I was prolly guilty of assuming that high ratio rackers would be part of the deal without saying so. Also should point out that you would prolly need valve springs good for , mebbe, 6500 rpm with a more normal cam in order to not float the valves at 4800 with this type of a cam. Regards, Greg > > >-> A hydraulic roller grind with numbers >-> like this would prolly break U-joints at will in the lower gears with > > It "prolly" wouldn't, unless the engine was strong enough to perform >these feats with the stock cam. > >==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== >I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? >my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? >=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:40:48 -0500 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: 16188051 IC contents At 08:53 AM 4/2/99 -0500, Dave Hempstead wrote: > >I received a PCM for experiments. THANK YOU SCOTT KNIGHT. >It is out of a '94 Caprice. It is the same number as >my PCM from a '95 Camaro. Here is what is in it: >(I've only listed IC's, excepting the power IC's, >and the numbers printed on the boards). > > >Contents of 16188051 PCM > >Red, Black connector PC board > >PC board numbers: >188A584 P5 >188B584 P7 (??) >188A584 P1 > >Large IC's >185 16156598 C94R KQEVB9347F 68pin PLCC This is the MCU. It's a 68HC11F1 variant... Pinout seems identical. >A33801 66285 Delco 466 68pin PLCC IOR, Input/Output with RAM >185 16166079 084G KQEUT9402L 68pin PLCC >Flash AN28F512 32pin PLCC 512K flash ram >609 3700518 CP07700 129170 9350N NCR 52pin PLCC >609 3700521 CP06893 144436 9339N NCR 28pin PLCC >40319732 27474 466 28pin PLCC REST- do not know what it stands for, but is used for Timing. > >Smaller IC's >014 P37AP 73098 14pin SOP >014 M39AG 89551 14pin SOP >014 M39AK 89551 14pin SOP > >12.5829 crystal > >----------------------------------------------------- >Blue, Grey connector PC board > >PC board numbers: >165D553 P5 >165D553 P1 > >Large IC's >185 16156598 C94R KQEWA9343K 68pin PLCC MCU HC11F1 >A35207 66285 Delco 466 68pin PLCC IOR >Flash AN28F512 32pin PLCC 512K Flash ram >40339531 64606 466 28pin PLCC ALDL interface? SXR-Serial Comm Controller > >014 S38BD 34987 20pin PLCC O2 amp?? >014 S38DK 34987 20pin PLCC O2 amp?? I was told these were O2 interfaces, but Delco swares they are 28 pin PLCC's... > >Smaller IC's >N57245 P37AK 14pin SOP >N45153 P38AT 16pin SOP >N45153 P38AR 16pin SOP >014 P39BB 45153 16pin SOP >014 M37DL 65422 8pin SOP >014 M37AP 73098 14pin SOP >16127472 889980Q Hnn9344 Philips 14pin SOP > >12.5829 crystal > >Knock module 16188309 1084028 > > > >Next step, id'ing each chip. >(I've gotta believe 2 of the 68pin PLCC packages are the 68HC11F1 and >the IO with RAM chips) See above... 1 cpu and 1 IOR on each. Later, DAve =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 18:57:23 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. I am in the UK where direct Japanese imports are common.I have a `94 Supra twin turbo,Jap spec,with speed density measurement,not MAF as I believe the US spec ones are.I was wondering how to speed the old girl up a bit.Water injection is popular here in England,so I thought of adding that,if I raise the boost a bit.The Supra only has a small intercooler,and although I have not yet done charge temp measurements,I feel water injection may be beneficial.But where to inject? Having twin,sequential turbos suggests I inject water *after* the intercooler,maybe just in front of the throttle body? Or should I be injecting elsewhere? Thanks for any help. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:14:36 -0800 From: "Terry/Carol Kelley" Subject: BUICK ECM NUMBER AND FIERO TURBO PIPES 1992/1993 Vin L and Vin 1 3800 Buick Engines (NA and Supercharged). Didn't you do a bunch of Fiero work? I am looking for a source for the turbocharger pipes to fabricate the in/out. In case you are keeping the webpage up to date. Terry Kelley 1986 Olds Ciera GT 3800 Supercharged ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:09:59 -0700 From: cwagner@xxx.net Subject: 1227148 Does anybody have and ideas about what I could use the 1227148 computer on and how to modify it to be used on other engines? I would like to put it on an old Chevy straight six in my grandfathers work truck. My main concern is reprograming the chip to work on other engines. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:14:12 EST From: A70Duster@xxx.com Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. I'll give it a go. Earlier on this list (you can check the archives) water injection was a pretty hot topic. I suggest that you inject water into a high velocity air stream so that turbulence will mix up the water droplets. Assuming that your only injecting water after reaching a certain boost pressure, the throttle body area (venturi) should have the highest air stream velocity. My 2¢.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:25:07 -0500 From: "PC Handyman" Subject: Turbo site under construction I'm revamping my turbo site, It will now be called "Forced Induction Obsession", and it will be focused on superchargers now too. Sent me anything that you would like to submit!! Sorry for any duplicate copies, but I'm trying to make sure I reach everyone... I'll send you the url as soon as I feel like it's ready... - -Noah - -16v cabbie - -8v turbo rocco - -87 8v gti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:21:55 -0500 From: Hugo Villeneuve Subject: Injector driver question... Hi all, I have designed and tested an injector driver based on the LM1949. I want to be able to run low impedance as well as high impedance type injectors. I tested it with low resistance (2.4 ohms) injector and the operation was as expected (at least on the scope screen!) with a peak current of 4 A and hold at 1.0 A. The rise time is 0.8 mS. When I tested it with a high impedance injector (14.9 ohms), the peek current was about 2.5 A and it took 4mS (seems very long to me...) to rise to this value. After that 4 mS period, the timer fonction of the LM1949 lowered the current to the hold mode of 1 A, as expected. My question is : why the current is so high with the high impedance injector ? If we divide the battery voltage by the impedance of the injector, we get 12 / 14.9 = 0.8 A, which is the value of the current in the steady state. Hugo Villeneuve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:52:14 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: 1227148 - -----Original Message----- From: cwagner@xxx.net> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 2:33 PM Subject: 1227148 You "could" use that. But, it's basically a SEFI MAF system, that doesn't use a distributor. If that ol truck has a HEI, or can be made to use a HEI, then I'd tink about the 1227747. If you go to the DIY_EFI Homepage there is reference to progrmming 101, which might help you figure out what to do. Bruce Does anybody have and ideas about what I could use the 1227148 computer on and how to modify it to be used on other engines? I would like to put it on an old Chevy straight six in my grandfathers work truck. My main concern is reprograming the chip to work on other engines. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:19:22 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Camshafts - -----Original Message----- From: Robert Harris To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 10:19 AM Subject: Camshafts I do read D Vizard, amongst others, and I don't limit myself to text. I've spent some time talking to Scooter Brothers at Comp Cam, and been to a number of Crane fests. Dun worked on grinding some cam patterns. Been tuning in earnest for a few years, and some of it was dyno work. Also, been to a couple county fairs. Bragging, done. Bottom line, seen some stuff that shouldn't have worked anywhere near as well as it did, and some stuff that looked really good on paper that didn't run wortha hoot.... Yep, there is some Net Junk floating around, and I'm sure some folks consider my opinions at best, non-sense. But, I'll keep an open ear to all I hear, an open eye to what I read, and never rely on one source, too much. If ya wanna thrill, talk to some of the magazine editors when they are looking for help. While certain writters have been doers, some of them ain't dun nuttin honey........ Happy Easter Bruce Went to Hooters the other night, and darn, I couldn't find an owl anywhere............. For the blokes overseas, it's a business where healthy lassies serve beer+snacks.... >Spend 20 bucks. Buy the best de-bs'ing and debunking book on cams ever >written - "How to build and modify Chevrolet Small-Block V-8 Camshafts and >valvetrains" Dave Vizard ( Forward by Harvey Crane sr) Motor Books >International ISBN0-87938-595-2. >Its 95 per cent cams and valve theory practice etc and a smattering of chevy >specific. It will prevent you from swallowing all the rotten fish from >Denmark on the internet - unless of course - you like bull feces. Snip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:34:03 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. I would be concerned with water distribution. Maybe a single atomized spray at the throttle body will work. Better would be to put a nozzle in each runner. Definitely inject the water after the intercooler. The goal is to get liquid water (atomized)inside the cylinders. Gary Derian > I am in the UK where direct Japanese imports are common.I have a `94 > Supra twin turbo,Jap spec,with speed density measurement,not MAF as I > believe the US spec ones are.I was wondering how to speed the old > girl up a bit.Water injection is popular here in England,so I thought > of adding that,if I raise the boost a bit.The Supra only has a small > intercooler,and although I have not yet done charge temp > measurements,I feel water injection may be beneficial.But where to > inject? Having twin,sequential turbos suggests I inject water *after* > the intercooler,maybe just in front of the throttle body? Or should I > be injecting elsewhere? > > Thanks for any help. > > > -- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:26:10 -0500 From: Teller.John@xxx.com Subject: Re: Injector driver question... Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu To: "diy_efi@xxx.edu" cc: (bcc: John Teller/ORBVA) Subject: Injector driver question... >When I tested it with a high impedance injector (14.9 ohms), the peek >current was about 2.5 A and it took 4mS (seems very long to me...) to >rise to this value. After that 4 mS period, the timer fonction of the >LM1949 lowered the current to the hold mode of 1 A, as expected. > >My question is : why the current is so high with the high impedance >injector ? If we divide the battery voltage by the impedance of the >injector, we get 12 / 14.9 = 0.8 A, which is the value of the current in >the steady state. > > Hugo Villeneuve. I am not an injector expert, but I believe you are attempting to apply a DC based formula to an AC problem (pulsed DC actually, but the same thing as far as calculations are concerned). What is happening is that the solenoid coil in the injector looks like an inductance and a capacitance value in parallel with some resistive values thrown in everywhere for good measure. The capacitor here is formed by the inter-wire capacitance of the coil. What happens at the beginning of the DC pulse is this: The capacitor looks like a short and the inductor looks like an open circuit. As the solenoid energizes, the capacitor charges up, and the magnetic field around the inductor starts building up. Eventually the capacitor is fully charged, and the magnetic field is built up to whatever the current going through the solenoid can put out (the current is limited by the resistance of the coil). At this point the capacitor looks like an open circuit, and the inductor looks like a resistor. As you can see, this is really complicated, which is why the injector's coil measurement is impeadance and not resistance. This impeadance also varies depending on the frequency of the pulses being applied to it! What a headache. - --- John Teller ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:49:14 -0700 From: cwagner@xxx.net Subject: Re: 1227148 From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: 1227148 Date sent: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:52:14 -0500 Send reply to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > -----Original Message----- > From: cwagner@xxx.net> > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 2:33 PM > Subject: 1227148 > > You "could" use that. > But, it's basically a SEFI MAF system, that doesn't use a distributor. > If that ol truck has a HEI, or can be made to use a HEI, then I'd tink about > the > 1227747. If you go to the DIY_EFI Homepage there is reference to progrmming > 101, > which might help you figure out what to do. > Bruce > > > Does anybody have and ideas about what I could use the 1227148 > computer on and how to modify it to be used on other engines? I > would like to put it on an old Chevy straight six in my grandfathers > work truck. My main concern is reprograming the chip to work on > other engines. > Thanks for clearing things up for me. If anybody needs or wants this computer, they are more than welcome to it, although I would like to trade it for a 7747 if I could. If not, here is a computer if anybody wants it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 18:43:50 -0800 From: rr Subject: Re: Injector driver question... Doesn't make sense, I'd have a look at everything that could effect the current reading. Your test equip, P/S voltage, inj resistance. Somethings not right. Try just 12.0v and a DVM in current mode across the sat inj, see what that gives. You'll probably find something goofy someplace. BobR. Hugo Villeneuve wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have designed and tested an injector driver based on the LM1949. I > want to be able to run low impedance as well as high impedance type > injectors. I tested it with low resistance (2.4 ohms) injector and the > operation was as expected (at least on the scope screen!) with a peak > current of 4 A and hold at 1.0 A. The rise time is 0.8 mS. > > When I tested it with a high impedance injector (14.9 ohms), the peek > current was about 2.5 A and it took 4mS (seems very long to me...) to > rise to this value. After that 4 mS period, the timer fonction of the > LM1949 lowered the current to the hold mode of 1 A, as expected. > > My question is : why the current is so high with the high impedance > injector ? If we divide the battery voltage by the impedance of the > injector, we get 12 / 14.9 = 0.8 A, which is the value of the current in > the steady state. > > Hugo Villeneuve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 18:24:46 -0800 From: rr Subject: Re: Diesels Believe it or not, they just started dying the local k1 kero here. Can't figure out why, what runs on it? I just use it to heat the garage... BobR. local to pa, us of a Peter D. Hipson wrote: > > Though they are the same stuff, heating oil (not Kero, though) is dyed to > indicate that road taxes were *not* paid. Being caught on the road can > spell trouble. On private property, you can go for it, though I'd check the > fuel filter a bit more often to ensure that the dye doesn't cause problems. > > > Now this applies to the US, so take it with a grain of salt if you are not > in the states! > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 19:00:34 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. - -----Original Message----- From: Chris Wilson To: DIY_EFI Mailing List Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 1:19 PM Subject: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Need to measure your temps before you do anything. Once that is done, add the water to the intake charge as close as possible to the turbo. The heat turns it into steam, and since it has the longest path posssible the greatest amount of time to become equal amongst the incoming air, and absorb heat. Sir Harry Ricardo in the "High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" covers it well. Just my 02 cents Bruce >I am in the UK where direct Japanese imports are common.I have a `94 >Supra twin turbo,Jap spec,with speed density measurement,not MAF as I >believe the US spec ones are.I was wondering how to speed the old >girl up a bit.Water injection is popular here in England,so I thought >of adding that,if I raise the boost a bit.The Supra only has a small >intercooler,and although I have not yet done charge temp >measurements,I feel water injection may be beneficial.But where to >inject? Having twin,sequential turbos suggests I inject water *after* >the intercooler,maybe just in front of the throttle body? Or should I >be injecting elsewhere? > >Thanks for any help. > > >-- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 19:33:16 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Diesels - -----Original Message----- From: rr To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Diesels IRS, EPA, thing. They want the high sulfur stuff for stationary use, and the taxes paid for highway use as far as I know. Sneezy. >Believe it or not, they just started dying the local k1 kero >here. Can't figure out why, what runs on it? I just use it >to heat the garage... > >BobR. > >local to pa, us of a > >Peter D. Hipson wrote: >> >> Though they are the same stuff, heating oil (not Kero, though) is dyed to >> indicate that road taxes were *not* paid. Being caught on the road can >> spell trouble. On private property, you can go for it, though I'd check the >> fuel filter a bit more often to ensure that the dye doesn't cause problems. >> >> >> Now this applies to the US, so take it with a grain of salt if you are not >> in the states! >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:02:01 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Injector driver question... >Hi all, > > I have designed and tested an injector driver based on the LM1949. I >want to be able to run low impedance as well as high impedance type >injectors. I tested it with low resistance (2.4 ohms) injector and the >operation was as expected (at least on the scope screen!) with a peak >current of 4 A and hold at 1.0 A. The rise time is 0.8 mS. > >When I tested it with a high impedance injector (14.9 ohms), the peek >current was about 2.5 A and it took 4mS (seems very long to me...) to >rise to this value. After that 4 mS period, the timer fonction of the >LM1949 lowered the current to the hold mode of 1 A, as expected. > >My question is : why the current is so high with the high impedance >injector ? If we divide the battery voltage by the impedance of the >injector, we get 12 / 14.9 = 0.8 A, which is the value of the current in >the steady state. > > Hugo Villeneuve. Your P&H values sound like they are right on the money for an LM1949 with 4/1 P&H ( did your 4-1 timer shift take place at roughly 3.9 ms?). On the other hand, your saturated values sound a bit off. Did you change anything between the two experiments (except for the injector)? I assume you had only one high impedance injector hooked-up during your saturated tests? Seems kinda strange. I'd be really interested in knowing more about your test setup. Injectors have an equivalent circuit that can be modelled as an RL circuit (no capacitance). From what I've seen/tested, the current response usually follows the classical "RL" equivalent circuit model????? Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 21:36:42 EST From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. > Having twin,sequential turbos suggests I inject water *after* > the intercooler,maybe just in front of the throttle body? Or should I > be injecting elsewhere? Hi Chris, Sounds like the right place. You don't want to crud-up the inside of the IC core. They are not intended to be hosed with water. The crud that tap water causes to form on aluminum will reduce the thermal efficiency of the IC also. After the IC, but before the TB is a good location. GL Mike V ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 22:18:38 -0500 From: Hugo Villeneuve Subject: Re: Injector driver question... At 20:02 99-04-02 -0800, you wrote: >>Hi all, >> >> I have designed and tested an injector driver based on the LM1949. I >>want to be able to run low impedance as well as high impedance type >>injectors. I tested it with low resistance (2.4 ohms) injector and the >>operation was as expected (at least on the scope screen!) with a peak >>current of 4 A and hold at 1.0 A. The rise time is 0.8 mS. >> >>When I tested it with a high impedance injector (14.9 ohms), the peek >>current was about 2.5 A and it took 4mS (seems very long to me...) to >>rise to this value. After that 4 mS period, the timer fonction of the >>LM1949 lowered the current to the hold mode of 1 A, as expected. >> >>My question is : why the current is so high with the high impedance >>injector ? If we divide the battery voltage by the impedance of the >>injector, we get 12 / 14.9 = 0.8 A, which is the value of the current in >>the steady state. >> >> Hugo Villeneuve. > > > > >Your P&H values sound like they are right on the money for an LM1949 with >4/1 P&H ( did your 4-1 timer shift take place at roughly 3.9 ms?). On >the other hand, your saturated values sound a bit off. Did you change >anything between the two experiments (except for the injector)? I assume >you had only one high impedance injector hooked-up during your saturated >tests? Seems kinda strange. I'd be really interested in knowing more about >your test setup. Injectors have an equivalent circuit that can be modelled >as an RL circuit (no capacitance). From what I've seen/tested, the current >response usually follows the classical "RL" equivalent circuit model????? > > >Walt. Hi Walt, I know that the timer shift for the low impedance injector did not occur because the peak current was higher than the 4 A required to activate the hold mode. I didn't change anything between the two tests. I have also tested two differents models of high impedance injectors, with approximatively the same results. I found some information for the values of the injectors (general guidelines only!) : Low impedance : L = 2mH and R = 2.4 Ohms -> time constant = L/R = 0.83 mS High impedance: L = 10mH and R = 15 Ohms -> time constant = 0.66 mS We see that the two time constants are almost the same... For the low impedance injector, I cannot say what was the final value of the current, because peak detection reduced the current past 4 A. But for the high impedance type, after 4 mS it is evident from the curve I obtained that the current have reached the steady state condition and ,since 4 mS is about five time constant, the curve seems to be logical for a classical RL circuit (except for the high current...). So if the current in the low impedance injector had a chance to rise without peak detection activated, maybe it will be more than 12V/2.4 = 5 A? I think the circuit should work like this for high impedance injectors, but I don't know the effect of lowering the current to 1 A for these kind of injectors since the notion of peak and hold is never discussed for these injectors... anyone with an idea? For my test setup, I used a digital storage oscilloscope with a probe directly between the 0.1 Ohms sense resistor to measure the current of the injector, like the LM1949 is doing! . The input signal was at 50% duty cycle, with a frequency of 83 Hz (5000 RPM). Hugo. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:59:14 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. - -----Original Message----- From: ECMnut@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Yikes, now ya got me thinking. I've done it pre cooler, but none of the stuff has had a clear enough shot to see into the cooler's core. Have you seen this happen?. Being steam can one of the chemical types say what we might expect?. Simple answer would be distilled water, I quess. Bruce >> Having twin,sequential turbos suggests I inject water *after* >> the intercooler,maybe just in front of the throttle body? Or should I >> be injecting elsewhere? >Hi Chris, >Sounds like the right place. You don't want to crud-up the >inside of the IC core. They are not intended to be hosed >with water. The crud that tap water causes to form on >aluminum will reduce the thermal efficiency of the IC also. >After the IC, but before the TB is a good location. >GL >Mike V ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:09:01 EST From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: Found some air filter flow data This is the info printed on a factory 1999 Chrysler 300M ( 3.5 V6 ) air filter element. Dust capacity 54G Max Air Flow 4000 L Min Efficency 98% Pressure loss @xxx.03 Bar The element is ~ 6" X 8" X 1 1/2" ,and is the popular pad type element. Does any one have a conversion from Liters Per Minute to Cubic Feet per Minute? Harold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:22:43 EST From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. > Yikes, now ya got me thinking. I've done it pre cooler, but none of the > stuff has had a clear enough shot to see into the cooler's core. Have you > seen this happen?. Yes, I got an IC from a single turbo RX7 in hopes of using it on a small engine turbo project. They have this 12x9x3 air/air intercooler that sits on top of the engine and seals against the hood.. Anyway, the inside of it was really ugly, so I went back to look at the engine it came from, and there was a water injection "jet" plumbed into the the turbo-to-IC pipe.. The guys who yanked the engine over in Japan, and shipped it to Dave had simply snipped the water tube close to the jet, so it was hardly noticable. Mike V > Being steam can one of the chemical types say what we might expect?. > Simple answer would be distilled water, I quess. > Bruce > > > >> Having twin,sequential turbos suggests I inject water *after* > >> the intercooler,maybe just in front of the throttle body? Or should I > >> be injecting elsewhere? > >Hi Chris, > >Sounds like the right place. You don't want to crud-up the > >inside of the IC core. They are not intended to be hosed > >with water. The crud that tap water causes to form on > >aluminum will reduce the thermal efficiency of the IC also. > >After the IC, but before the TB is a good location. > >GL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 21:33:35 -0800 From: "H. J. Zivnak" Subject: Re: Found some air filter flow data Hello Harold 1cfm= .4720 l/sec= 28.32l/min Joe - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 8:09 PM Subject: Found some air filter flow data > This is the info printed on a factory 1999 Chrysler 300M ( 3.5 V6 ) air > filter element. > > Dust capacity 54G > Max Air Flow 4000 L Min > Efficency 98% > Pressure loss @xxx.03 Bar > > The element is ~ 6" X 8" X 1 1/2" ,and is the popular pad type element. > > Does any one have a conversion from Liters Per Minute to Cubic Feet per > Minute? > > Harold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 21:43:50 PST From: "Chris Moore" Subject: ABS Wheel sensor signal generator Hi Everyone, I want to say thanks for all the people who have answered some of my questions. It looks like I now need some kind of signal generator to produce the same signal an ABS sensor would produce. It looks like I need the signal to be made for 18 miles/hour or more. How can I find this out without actually having a car to check? Can someone give me an idea or maybe someone already knows. Remember, the Northstar and trans are from a 1995 Seville STS. Thanks. Chris Moore Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #206 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".