DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, April 4 1999 Volume 04 : Number 210 In this issue: Re: HEMI:-) Question about Howell conversion. Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: 7-Pin HEI Module RE: EFI Head Volume Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: EFI Head Volume Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: 7-Pin HEI Module Police / Taxi EFI Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: HEMI:-) Adventurer Re: Police / Taxi EFI Injector I.D. Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Toluene and Lambda probes?? Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: Question about Howell conversion. Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: Police / Taxi EFI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:07:38 EDT From: Tedscj@xxx.com Subject: Re: HEMI:-) In a message dated 4/4/99 3:32:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, talltom@xxx.com writes: > While all the hemi heads are here, I'd like to ask what's supposed > to be in a 57 DeSoto Adventurer. A buddy's got one, and it's got > the factory 2-4 barrel carbs. He sez it can run 140, I'd like > to know what it sposed to be. > I wanna keep from gettin my doors blown off by a 57 DeSoto...:-) > (This thing IS the car in the SHOE cartoon) The book I have (although I'm not completely convinced of it's accuracy) says a 345ci Hemi v8 with twin quad induction, 9.25 to 1 compression ratio, hydraulic valve lifters, and 345 HP. Also, it states that the '57 Adventurer was the first car have an engine with 1 HP per 1 CI as *standard* equipment. And I have read that a '56 Chrysler 300B (similar size car and Hemi engine with similar HP figures) could do 140, so I'd bet with the right gearing, your friends Adventurer could, too. (at least according to Hemi lore!) Ted ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 09:22:28 -0500 From: esc Subject: Question about Howell conversion. Does anyone know which ECU Howell uses whan they do their conversion of a Holley projection4? For that matter...does anyone have a number or web address for howell? Eric esc@xxx.com If it breaks, make it stronger. If it doesn't, try harder. '68 Big Block Bird '69 Spitfire '82(sort of) Camaro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:25:17 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Provided of course that the exhaust gas temperature remains the same and you are correcting to stoich. If you are biasing toward rich - which under load most are - you will find that the output is temperature sensitive and your mixture will be off. A .8 equivalence ratio ( about 12.~ to 1 ) is ~1.0 volts at 500c exhaust but only ~.875 volts at 900c. At 900c the transition from stoic voltage is about 650 mv but at 500c its all the way up to 850+mv. Adding water or alcohol will lower the combustion and generally the exhaust temperature. If you are uncompensated for EGT, this will mean for the same output of the sensor, the mixture will be leaner. Reference: Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals John B. Heywood - Director Sloan Automotive Laboratory MIT ISBN 0-07-028637-x Virtually all O2 sensors appear to be uncompensated for temperature with the heater bringing them somewhere in the "warm" region. For the manufacturer this is not a problem as they simple use them as a stoic switch. >Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:14:27 -0700 >From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) >Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. > >>In article <4.1.19990403143820.00951540@xxx. >>Cooley apparently wrote: >> >>> How about substituting Methanol or Ethanol for the water... higher heat of >>> vaporization (cools better as it evaporates) Plus it supplies additional >>> fuel to the engine *AND* increases effective octane of the cylinder >>> charge... Pretty good gains to be seen here if it's metered right! >> >>That is pretty common over here in the UK.I do not know if such additives >>would be "liked" by the Lambda sensor though? Anyone ? > >No problem there--fact is, the sensor will read the true stoich point, >despite the new fuel. > >Greg 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 12:06:37 -0400 From: Jason Weir Subject: Re: 7-Pin HEI Module andy quaas wrote: > > Around 1984 or so they started using the electronic advanced HEI > (big-cap style, internal coil). They used them on zillions of 305/350s > with an "electronic" Q-Jet. I don't know the differences between the > internals of the 6 cylinder HEIs, but the actual housing and shaft seem > to be the same between the vacuum and the electronic big-cap HEIs, so > maybe the 6's are the same? > > Andy > p.s. why do u want to switch? I guess a little background is in order, what I got is an old worn out Jeep Prestolite or Autolite (not exactly sure which) distributor that I removed the vacuum and centrifugal advance from. The stock magnetic pickup is driving a ignition module from a 91 GM TBI (7747) setup, I have the ignition module along with 2 Pentium CPU heat sinks along with fans (they are 12V fans) - zip tied to the firewall due to the fact that I had no where else to mount the module. I had it mounted to the distributor and it kept overheating, I burnt 2 up before I got the heat sinks and fans. In a Jeep I want to have everything consolidated as much as possible to make water proofing easier. But the main reason is that I have been chasing an ignition miss that I believe to be caused by a worn distributor housing/shaft/bearings and the only GM housing that will fit this motor is out of the 250/292 L6 motor. Well as far as I know these motors were never offered with the 7-pin hei module only the 4 pin. So I want to mount a 7-pin module inside the 250's dizzy and hook it to the 7747 TBI setup running on my 4.2L Jeep straight 6. On another note this ignition miss makes chip tuning a wild goose chase, when a plug misfires the extra O2/fuel in the exhaust which really is a rich condition makes the O2 sensor think that things are lean and the ECM adds fuel, which only makes the ignition miss worse. I have been chasing the BLM all over the place at idle, in the higher rpm's it seems to get averaged out and I don't notice it as much. there are we confused now, I think I am Later, Jason Weir - -- 88 Wrangler - 155K miles and counting 258 I6, 4.0 head, Cherokee header, 2 1/2 exhaust with high flow cat & Flowmaster GM TBI, Crane 260H Cam TJ Fender Flares http://home.att.net/~jweir CNC 4X4 Member - http://cnc.4x4.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:11:21 -0600 From: Marc Piccioni Subject: RE: EFI Head Volume The head cc's should be 58.5 if the heads have not been cut. One possible method (depending on how much boost he wants to run) is to use Fel-Pro's head save gasket shim, it adds ~0.040" in thickness which roughly translates into ~ 0.8 -> 1.0 drop in C.R. This would save a bunch of $$$ on AL heads if that is what he would like to do......... /Marc - ---------- From: Mark Romans[SMTP:romans@xxx.net] Sent: April 4, 1999 12:45 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu; EFI Subject: EFI Head Volume I have a friend who has an 89 Firebird 5.7 w/tpi and a Vortech and he has the stock cast iron heads. (No casting #) and we are trying to determine what the stock head combustion chamber volume is. He wants to go to aluminum heads and drop his compression to 8.0-8.5 to one range. Anyone know what the stock cast iron L98 F-Body app combustion chamber CC's are? Thanks. Mark begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@(0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`% !```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```%L`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&5S;"YE M;F5]E9FE 97-L+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=2<` M`````@$+, $````D````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$533"Y%3D`' ``0```!0```!2 M13H@149)($AE860@5F]L=6UE``(!<0`!````%@````&^?K7'>G$Q7VOJ=1'2 MOIQ$15-4`````!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% `````'@`?# $````8````;7!I M8V-I;VYI0&%T=&-A;F%D82YN970``P`&$$X0X.X#``<0I@(``!X`"! !```` M90```%1(14A%041#0U-32$]53$1"134X-4E&5$A%2$5!1%-(059%3D]40D5% M3D-55$].15!/4U-)0DQ%34542$]$*$1%4$5.1$E.1T].2$]7355#2$)/3U-4 M2$5704Y44U1/4E5.*4D``````@$)$ $```"[`P``MP,``"L&``!,6D9ULS#, MV_\`"@$/`A4"J 7K`H,`4 +R"0(`8V@*P'-E=#(W!@`&PP*#,@/%`@!P)S=&5M`H,SMP+D!Q,"@S02S!3%?0J BPC/"=D[%Y\R-34"@ <*@0VQ"V!N M9S$P,R\44 L*%%$+\F,`0"!4"&AE(!R0860@8Z1C)P0@@ 1P("@-L,IP"?!D"X!G( (@'+"R;P?@;7410&,#H!Z :6-K(& $$7<'*&$BX -@=6=H M;'G]'G!R`'$+8!/0!" +@"/Q!'X@)[ X("T^(%(Q)\ @9 -@<"@20]PN4B P M'( D<7<=@R8#KF$=P"0P(M%O'F D+B#Y(C)!3!ZU'E,J,"1B*/!G+W$C8AV# M;&DF@xxx.8S'L"O0PL#$X, +1\&DM,30GX S!-/,+ M65PQ-@xxx.!XVE@R"!= *P&L']'- M6U--5% Z`V-SBD *L&,=T&QL+B!@_'1=-[\XS09@`C Y_SL+ED$34 ,1-"<` M,3E"T)$K4#(Z-!XP04T^'SDXS51O0%\["R'P>5\Y#0/; )\&$0O\3^U=6)J-M%%OSL+29+J2!S25@;P=0> M,Q\T(_PS-C67&]4VEDFP'R,M HX20`$8 $( .1TCA"\$9I%Z!B M5 `<\ @U+C@A/ ;RB M'0!_)F O@xxx.MR0`5[(B`B,D4%4B=RU1>Q>@*<%Y(@(Q`A' M!)!M_PN 3P8OTU<8',0#<"V063'/(D$1<0;0!) @xxx.(9R0` M(_ *A0= _T[@xxx.X!ZU52(KHRR"75&?$U HL5W"(_$>$# M'A)O(_$"(!R@ M*>%G22!8L$'\;GED(0J%*) B@5P=5[C$3#DK$$8M0@1P*;"<87 KT%U?! Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. esc wrote: > > Does anyone know which ECU Howell uses whan they do their conversion of a > Holley projection4? > > For that matter...does anyone have a number or web address for howell? > Eric > esc@xxx.com > If it breaks, make it stronger. > If it doesn't, try harder. > '68 Big Block Bird > '69 Spitfire > '82(sort of) Camaro www.howell-efi.com - -- 88 Wrangler - 155K miles and counting 258 I6, 4.0 head, Cherokee header, 2 1/2 exhaust with high flow cat & Flowmaster GM TBI, Crane 260H Cam TJ Fender Flares http://home.att.net/~jweir CNC 4X4 Member - http://cnc.4x4.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 09:50:23 -0700 From: Mark Romans Subject: Re: EFI Head Volume The stock cast iron head is 58.5? Whoa, I thought it would have a bigger chamber than that. Thanks for the info. Also quench area is critical in preventing pre-ignition so he would rather increase the combustion chamber volume than shim the head up. Thanks again. Mark - -----Original Message----- From: Marc Piccioni To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 9:46 AM Subject: RE: EFI Head Volume >The head cc's should be 58.5 if the heads have not been cut. One possible >method (depending on how much boost he wants to run) is to use Fel-Pro's >head save gasket shim, it adds ~0.040" in thickness which roughly >translates into ~ 0.8 -> 1.0 drop in C.R. This would save a bunch of $$$ on >AL heads if that is what he would like to do......... > >/Marc > >---------- >From: Mark Romans[SMTP:romans@xxx.net] >Sent: April 4, 1999 12:45 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu; EFI >Subject: EFI Head Volume > >I have a friend who has an 89 Firebird 5.7 w/tpi and a Vortech and he has >the stock cast iron heads. (No casting #) and we are trying to determine >what the stock head combustion chamber volume is. He wants to go to >aluminum heads and drop his compression to 8.0-8.5 to one range. Anyone >know what the stock cast iron L98 F-Body app combustion chamber CC's are? >Thanks. Mark > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT) From: andy quaas Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. They use a GM 1227730 and 1227747 ECMs with their own calibration. Their website is www.howell-efi.com, but they don't have the 7730 stuff there. Bruce Plecan bought a calibration from them (for the 7730) and he says it's sloppy. The wiring is simple. You have to change the MAP sensor to a GM type. They dont use an air temp sensor, but all the rest are the same. Do you have an IAC? If so, that will plug right in, also. Andy - --- esc wrote: > Does anyone know which ECU Howell uses whan they do > their conversion of a > Holley projection4? > > For that matter...does anyone have a number or web > address for howell? > Eric > esc@xxx.com > If it breaks, make it stronger. > If it doesn't, try harder. > '68 Big Block Bird > '69 Spitfire > '82(sort of) Camaro > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 13:26:00 -0400 From: Paul Tholey Subject: Re: 7-Pin HEI Module The 7 pin module and harness can be bought at the dealer. You can swap it in and the pole is the same. I think the harness is like $13. The dizzy base may need to be nothced the to allow the 4 pin harness to come out without being pinched by the cap. 3 go to the coil, 2 go to the pole peice these will be factory and no notching required. I really am not a big fan of the internal coil. It is in the center of a multi-magnetic feild (8 plug wires) and the coil itself is a mag feild making and breaking inside the cap. It doesn't really let the coil work to it's potential. This is not to mention the heat in there. That is why I feel the remote coil system is better. HTH Paul Tholey At 08:43 PM 4/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know of an application where a 7-pin HEI module fits inside >a big cap distributor. I want to switch from an external to an internal >coil setup, but the distributor I got only came with the 4-pin module.. > >Thanks, >Jason Weir >-- >88 Wrangler - 155K miles and counting >258 I6, 4.0 head, Cherokee header, 2 1/2 exhaust with high flow cat & >Flowmaster >GM TBI, Crane 260H Cam >TJ Fender Flares >http://home.att.net/~jweir >CNC 4X4 Member - http://cnc.4x4.org/ > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 10:20:11 -0700 From: "Fran and Bud" Subject: Police / Taxi EFI Since most of the discussions emphasize performance I thought that there would be more stuff based on police/taxi data, but have not seen anything posted and have not been able to find much in the archives. (Have not looked at every post!) Also didnt see police entries on any of the ECM tables. One post from Bruce, sometime in the past, mentioned "cop car injectors are larger than the truck. 1991, used 16136965 for the cop car ecm. BATJ was a "good"cal.". That is all that I have found up till now. Does anyone out there have more leads? My reasoning is that police cars involved in "hot pursuit" probably have hardware and calibrations to support running hard, or at least not hinder it. Isnt that the kind of EFI performance we are trying for? Where have I gone wrong? Where should I look harder? Interested in applications for both TBI and MPI. Thanks, Bud ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:27:43 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. - ----- Original Message ----- From: esc To: Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 10:22 AM Subject: Question about Howell conversion. > Does anyone know which ECU Howell uses whan they do their conversion of a > Holley projection4? If your talking about wanting to run a 4 barrel TBI, the only gm ecm I know of to do that properly is the 1227749 wired as used in a 87 Sunbird Turbo. In some testing that I did, I was unhappy with the results of firing injectors wired, in series parrarel. If you want to run a 4 barrel TBI, my suggestion is to run, a TBI ecm and then make an injector driver board external to the ecm, to actually fire the injectors. From what I've heard all the 4 barrels use the same butterflies, but different injector sizes from rating to rating. So the idea of selling them by CFM is silly, when they all flow about the same CFM, and the actual difference is gals/hour.... Next item, 4 ninety gal/hr injectors would support about 700 HP. I run 13s in a 3000#/350 CID car, with 2 two inch butterflies, if you really need that much air (4-2" butterflies), I'd look further than a TBI... If your needing that much air, then you have a bunch of cam, and might do well using a 747 where you can go open loop at idle. Cheers Bruce Took the staff out looking for owls last night.. The little guys thought to take some mice to bait the owls, into coming out. Shoulda seen them get bug eyed (the owls), and all that screaming,geez. P.s. So hunting for owls at Hooters is a lost cause...... > > For that matter...does anyone have a number or web address for howell? > Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 10:35:30 -0700 From: "Fran and Bud" Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. My Howell product catalog shows that they use 7747's for TBI and 7730 or 7165 for TPI. Howell is at: Howell Engine Developments, Inc. 6201 Industrial Way Marine City, MI 48039 Ph. 810 - 765 - 5100 Fax 810 - 765 - 1503 http://www.howell-efi.com/ Bud - ---------- >From: esc >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Question about Howell conversion. >Date: Sun, Apr 4, 1999, 7:22 AM > >Does anyone know which ECU Howell uses whan they do their conversion of a >Holley projection4? > >For that matter...does anyone have a number or web address for howell? >Eric >esc@xxx.com >If it breaks, make it stronger. >If it doesn't, try harder. >'68 Big Block Bird >'69 Spitfire >'82(sort of) Camaro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:05:02 -0400 From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Which version are you looking at? I have 3rd edition. On page 280 "production of 500 D500s was scheduled.Approxemately 101 were fitted with D501 engine."This means all others got either D500 or Super D500s. It also states the D500 was an option on ALL models, from Coronet on up, and either 285,310, or 340 Horse engines were fitted Then comes the information I submitted previously. D500 is 325cid 285 horse solid lifter, single WCFB. Super D500 is same engine with dual WCFBs and 310 HP. The D501 was the 354 hydraulic dual WCFB engine with 340 HP. 93.4% of '57 Dodges produced were V8s. I made one mistake - not all 325s were Hemis in 1957, as the Red Ram was just a bored out version of'55 - '56s PolySpherical head 315. In '53 and '54 the Red Ram WAS a Hemi. (I owned a '53 for quite a few years.) In '58 the D500 was based on the (again bored out) 361 Poly head engine. Now for the EFI content. 12 '58 supers were built with Bendix EFI - all of which were recalled for conversion to carbs. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:04:39 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. - ----- Original Message ----- From: andy quaas To: Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. I never said that about them. Bruce Plecan > They use a GM 1227730 and 1227747 ECMs with their own calibration. > Their website is www.howell-efi.com, but they don't have the 7730 stuff > there. Bruce Plecan bought a calibration from them (for the 7730) and > he says it's sloppy. > > The wiring is simple. You have to change the MAP sensor to a GM type. > They dont use an air temp sensor, but all the rest are the same. > > Do you have an IAC? If so, that will plug right in, also. > > Andy > > --- esc wrote: > > Does anyone know which ECU Howell uses whan they do > > their conversion of a > > Holley projection4? > > > > For that matter...does anyone have a number or web > > address for howell? > > Eric > > esc@xxx.com > > If it breaks, make it stronger. > > If it doesn't, try harder. > > '68 Big Block Bird > > '69 Spitfire > > '82(sort of) Camaro > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @xxx.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:25:01 -0400 From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Subject: Re: HEMI:-) Adventurer The '57 Adventurer engine is the 345 horse 345 cube Hemi with dual Carter 4s. First "standard equipment" north american engine to make 1 HP per Cubic inch. ('57 Chevy and '56 C300 were engine options - the adventurer was "standard equipment for model") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:47:27 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Police / Taxi EFI - ----- Original Message ----- From: Fran and Bud To: Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 1:20 PM Subject: Police / Taxi EFI >From what I've heard/seen the pursuit packages are about a dead deal anymore. Last info I read about the cop packages was things like parking with the nose of the car up by a wall, to test for air flow at sustained idle. Some of the instrument clusters also had warnings like not to use OD at sustained high speed. In this day of litigation for a Police Dept to order a Pursuit Package would be lawyer food. So the best is, Fleet Service. Some years ago some Police Depts had to lower the top speed mins, cause none of the cars could pass it, with a light bar................ That also explains some unmarked cars... GM has spent a bunch of money PR'ing the Tahoe SUV as a Police Vehicle. If anyone has more current info., or part #'s for Pursuit Package calibrations, I'd like to hear about them. Cheers Bruce > Since most of the discussions emphasize performance I thought that there > would be more stuff based on police/taxi data, but have not seen anything > posted and have not been able to find much in the archives. (Have not looked > at every post!) Also didnt see police entries on any of the ECM tables. > One post from Bruce, sometime in the past, mentioned "cop car injectors are > larger than the truck. 1991, used 16136965 for the cop car ecm. BATJ was a > "good"cal.". > That is all that I have found up till now. Does anyone out there have more > leads? > My reasoning is that police cars involved in "hot pursuit" probably have > hardware and calibrations to support running hard, or at least not hinder > it. Isnt that the kind of EFI performance we are trying for? > Where have I gone wrong? Where should I look harder? Interested in > applications for both TBI and MPI. > Thanks, > Bud ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:10:55 EDT From: WLundquist@xxx.com Subject: Injector I.D. Need some help identifying GM injector, old # is 17109596, new # is 17113221. I would like to know what the flow rate is in pounds/hr. Thanks ! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:12:45 EDT From: Tedscj@xxx.com Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question In a message dated 4/4/99 2:56:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, clare.snyder.on.ca@xxx.net writes: > Which version are you looking at? I have 3rd edition. On page 280 > "production of 500 D500s was scheduled.Approxemately 101 were fitted > with D501 engine."This means all others got either D500 or Super D500s. > It also states the D500 was an option on ALL models, from Coronet on up, > and either 285,310, or 340 Horse engines were fitted > Then comes the information I submitted previously. D500 is 325cid 285 > horse solid lifter, single WCFB. Super D500 is same engine with dual > WCFBs and 310 HP. > The D501 was the 354 hydraulic dual WCFB engine with 340 HP. > 93.4% of '57 Dodges produced were V8s. I made one mistake - not all 325s > were Hemis in 1957, as the Red Ram was just a bored out version of'55 - > '56s PolySpherical head 315. In '53 and '54 the Red Ram WAS a Hemi. (I > owned a '53 for quite a few years.) > In '58 the D500 was based on the (again bored out) 361 Poly head engine. > Thanks. This is exactly the information I was looking for but couldn't find. I think that the car I found is a Custom Royal with a D500 Hemi option. My edtion must be the first, because it doesn't specify which edition. Copyright 1982. '57 Dodge info on pg 278 (close! :) Hardly gives any info compared to what you just gave me. Guess I need a newer edition! Anyway, thanks cuz that info answers my question. Ted ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:11:06 -0500 From: esc Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. At 10:14 AM 4/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >They use a GM 1227730 and 1227747 ECMs with their own calibration. >Their website is www.howell-efi.com, but they don't have the 7730 stuff >there. Bruce Plecan bought a calibration from them (for the 7730) and >he says it's sloppy. > >The wiring is simple. You have to change the MAP sensor to a GM type. >They dont use an air temp sensor, but all the rest are the same. > >Do you have an IAC? If so, that will plug right in, also. > >Andy > Ther are no remenants of the origional computer system in my car. All I have right now is the Holley ProJection4 system (analog w/MSD controller). I looked at their site. It looks like they are using the 7747(sometimes). I have a 7747 laying around, so I may try and put this together myself. But not today. :) I'm still gathering info. I hope to come up with a plan pretty soon. I DO have a computer distributor that I would like to use. I have read the recent posts about using the computer for ignition control only, that sounds like a starting point. But I wonder what the MINIMUM would be to make that work? Also since I have a one-of-a-kind combination, and change it regularly, i need to be able to easily change the fuel and ignition curves. I guesss I kust need to get a prom burner and start playing. Eric esc@xxx.com If it breaks, make it stronger. If it doesn't, try harder. '68 Big Block Bird '69 Spitfire '82(sort of) Camaro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:19:25 -0500 From: esc Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. >If your talking about wanting to run a 4 barrel TBI, the only gm ecm I know >of to do that properly is the 1227749 wired as used in a 87 Sunbird Turbo. > In some testing that I did, I was unhappy with the results of firing >injectors wired, in series parrarel. > If you want to run a 4 barrel TBI, my suggestion is to run, a TBI ecm and >then make an injector driver board external to the ecm, to actually fire the >injectors. Sounds like a can of worms I'de rather not open. > From what I've heard all the 4 barrels use the same butterflies, but >different injector sizes from rating to rating. So the idea of selling >them by CFM is silly, when they all flow about the same CFM, and the actual >difference is gals/hour.... Mine is the 900CFM..uh, 4 85 lb/hour injectors. Holley claims it is good for 500 HP at 15 PSI. > Next item, 4 ninety gal/hr injectors would support about 700 HP. > I run 13s in a 3000#/350 CID car, with 2 two inch butterflies, if you >really need that much air (4-2" butterflies), I'd look further than a TBI... I want to use my TBI because I put a lot of effort into the ram-air system on the car. If I go with a port injection system (most anyway) I would have to scrap my ram-air, and maybe my hood. > If your needing that much air, then you have a bunch of cam, and might do >well using a 747 where you can go open loop at idle. I do have a lot of cam 255 at 0.50 and 0.600 lift. Would I need the external driver board you mentioned earlier to use the 747? >Cheers >Bruce Eric esc@xxx.com If it breaks, make it stronger. If it doesn't, try harder. '68 Big Block Bird '69 Spitfire '82(sort of) Camaro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 Tedscj@xxx.com wrote: > > In '58 the D500 was based on the (again bored out) 361 Poly head engine. > > The 361 was a different engine series, part of the 383-413 etc family. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:26:04 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Toluene and Lambda probes?? What effect does Toluene at say 10% concentration in Super Unleaded have on a normal lambda sensor? Sorry for all the Lambda sensor contaminant questions,we are more used to race engines that don't run them.I was considering adding Toluene to my 94 Supra twin turbo,as an anti detonant if I play with raising the boost a bit.Good idea ? Thanks. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:31:44 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. >Provided of course that the exhaust gas temperature remains the same and you >are correcting to stoich. If you are biasing toward rich - which under load >most are - you will find that the output is temperature sensitive and your >mixture will be off. > >A .8 equivalence ratio ( about 12.~ to 1 ) is ~1.0 volts at 500c exhaust but >only ~.875 volts at 900c. At 900c the transition from stoic voltage is about >650 mv but at 500c its all the way up to 850+mv. > >Adding water or alcohol will lower the combustion and generally the exhaust >temperature. If you are uncompensated for EGT, this will mean for the same >output of the sensor, the mixture will be leaner. > >Reference: Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals >John B. Heywood - Director Sloan Automotive Laboratory MIT >ISBN 0-07-028637-x > >Virtually all O2 sensors appear to be uncompensated for temperature with the >heater bringing them somewhere in the "warm" region. For the manufacturer >this is not a problem as they simple use them as a stoic switch. Bob is absolutely correct here about what will happen to O2 sensor output. He is also correct about what will happen to EGT's. Sorry--I happen to think it is less than smart to use a standard HEGO sensor to read anything BUT stoich, as a switch, so did not cover the point in my first post! Please excuse me for not stating my assumptions more clearly!!! ALSO--BEWARE--Bob's cautions as regards sensor output apply just as much to wide band UEGO sensors as they do to HEGO sensors. If you have a wide band , UEGO type O2 sensor which has not been properly and completely calibrated for changes in EGT , as well as for changes in exhaust back-pressure at the sensor location, you will get BOGUS mixture readings! Unless you have a fully, properly, accurately calibrated UEGO sensor, plug readings and high grade dyno flow instrumentation are the ONLY two ways to reliably determine mixture strength (other than stoich)!!!! Just to be really clear about it--a HEGO sensor will detect a stoich mixture, regardless of fuel type or any mixture of fuel types, and regardless of EGT or pressure. This is true because all a HEGO sensor really does is detect the presence or absence of oxygen in the exhaust gas stream. Gas temp and pressure will certainly have an effect on the rate of sensor response to changes in gas content, though. Regards, Greg > >>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:14:27 -0700 >>From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) >>Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. >> >>>In article <4.1.19990403143820.00951540@xxx. >>>Cooley apparently wrote: >>> >>>> How about substituting Methanol or Ethanol for the water... higher heat of >>>> vaporization (cools better as it evaporates) Plus it supplies additional >>>> fuel to the engine *AND* increases effective octane of the cylinder >>>> charge... Pretty good gains to be seen here if it's metered right! >>> >>>That is pretty common over here in the UK.I do not know if such additives >>>would be "liked" by the Lambda sensor though? Anyone ? >> >>No problem there--fact is, the sensor will read the true stoich point, >>despite the new fuel. >> >>Greg > > >1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" >1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" >1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant >1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" > >Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:12:42 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. - ----- Original Message ----- From: esc To: Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. > >If your talking about wanting to run a 4 barrel TBI, the only gm ecm I know > >of to do that properly is the 1227749 wired as used in a 87 Sunbird Turbo. > > In some testing that I did, I was unhappy with the results of firing > >injectors wired, in series parrarel. > > If you want to run a 4 barrel TBI, my suggestion is to run, a TBI ecm and > >then make an injector driver board external to the ecm, to actually fire the > >injectors. > Sounds like a can of worms I'de rather not open. > > From what I've heard all the 4 barrels use the same butterflies, but > >different injector sizes from rating to rating. So the idea of selling > >them by CFM is silly, when they all flow about the same CFM, and the actual > >difference is gals/hour.... > Mine is the 900CFM..uh, 4 85 lb/hour injectors. Holley claims it is good > for 500 HP at 15 PSI. 4x85=340gal/hr @xxx. Trouble would be leaning idle out enough, unless your really making that much HP.. One other thing I have done was run a 730 memcal+calibration in a 749, to run a two barrel TBI. You lose the TCC, and since your's don't sound like a emission application the lose of the carcoal canister yada yada don't sound like an issue. I ran out of time/volunteer on finishing it but, it did seem to be workable. While more involved, there is the option of setting your manifold up for TPI injectors, and use your TBI throttle body with that. Then, you have all kinds of ecm options. Extending from like using a TBI ecm to run TPI to TPI running TPI. Then you could use the 808 calibrations in a 1227165 for a very "low" code ecm. > > > Next item, 4 ninety gal/hr injectors would support about 700 HP. > > I run 13s in a 3000#/350 CID car, with 2 two inch butterflies, if you > >really need that much air (4-2" butterflies), I'd look further than a TBI... > > I want to use my TBI because I put a lot of effort into the ram-air system > on the car. If I go with a port injection system (most anyway) I would > have to scrap my ram-air, and maybe my hood. > > > If your needing that much air, then you have a bunch of cam, and might do > >well using a 747 where you can go open loop at idle. > > I do have a lot of cam 255 at 0.50 and 0.600 lift. Would I need the > external driver board you mentioned earlier to use the 747? Yep, the 749, is the only ecm to support what ya got, that I know of. Cheers Bruce > > Eric > esc@xxx.com > If it breaks, make it stronger. > If it doesn't, try harder. > '68 Big Block Bird > '69 Spitfire > '82(sort of) Camaro > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:25:38 -0700 (PDT) From: andy quaas Subject: Re: Question about Howell conversion. I thought that you said you bought one and it was, well junk. I must have misinterpreted your statement ;) Andy p.s. I looked it up in the archives and it appears that some messages are not in the archives????? - --- Bruce Plecan > I never said that about them. > Bruce Plecan > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 17:37:52 -0400 From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Dear God, am I going to show my age? Old Chrysler products were a favorite of mine! At 01:02 PM 4/3/99 EST, you wrote: >This isn't really EFI related, but can anyone point me to detailed >information on '50s Mopar information? My Web searches are only turning up >'60s info. > >Specifically, I found a '57 Dodge Custom Royal with a 325 Hemi and a single >4bbl for sale fairly cheap. You planning to restore it? That would be a fun project. However a 325 hemi was not the most powerful engine of that vintage. That is if the 325 is really a hemi! If it is, it is the smallest hemi that I"ve ever heard of! Are the spark plugs in the middle of the valve covers, or on the side? If not in the middle of the valve covers, then it's not a hemi, if in the middle of the valve covers, it's a hemi, but not (most likely) a '325'. Maybe a 392, or a 354. > I'm trying to find out if that makes it the D500 >option or if ALL Royal Customs came with Hemis. That I can't answer for sure, but there were other engine combinations. The hemi was a top end engine, though. >If it had the dual 4bbl >motor, then I'd be sure it was a D500 but it's only a single four which >leaves me confused. I'm not sure that there was a dual 4bbl on the 325. whether the 325 is a hemi or not, that would be way too much carb for the CI. Remember, a 325 is a relatively small engine. When I built Chevy 327 race engines, we were pushing with a larger 4bbl, and anything more was counter productive (we would get about 450 HP, with an engine that was streetable, not easy but drivable!) >The serial # on the motor was KD500-1151 which IS a Dodge Hemi motor for the >57 model year. I just don't know if this makes the CAR a D500 which >seriously affects it's value. 2 door hardtop? that is just as important! > >Thanks for any direction to the info. >Ted > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 19:18:42 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Police / Taxi EFI Actually, the only difference between "police cal's" and regular was in California... the cop vehicles would have the 49 state federal cal which was a bit more lenient and may have had an additional HP or 2, but identical to what you could get in the same type of vehicle if you bought it off the lot... Police packages consisted of silicone hoses, larger trans and oil coolers, heavy duty cooling and an extremely large alternator. At 10:20 AM 4/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >Since most of the discussions emphasize performance I thought that there >would be more stuff based on police/taxi data, but have not seen anything >posted and have not been able to find much in the archives. (Have not looked >at every post!) Also didnt see police entries on any of the ECM tables. > >One post from Bruce, sometime in the past, mentioned "cop car injectors are >larger than the truck. 1991, used 16136965 for the cop car ecm. BATJ was a >"good"cal.". > >That is all that I have found up till now. Does anyone out there have more >leads? > >My reasoning is that police cars involved in "hot pursuit" probably have >hardware and calibrations to support running hard, or at least not hinder >it. Isnt that the kind of EFI performance we are trying for? > >Where have I gone wrong? Where should I look harder? Interested in >applications for both TBI and MPI. > >Thanks, >Bud =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #210 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".