DIY_EFI Digest Monday, April 5 1999 Volume 04 : Number 211 In this issue: Re: Toluene and Lambda probes?? Toluene and Lambda probes?? Re: ABS Wheel sensor signal generator Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: Toluene and Lambda probes?? Re: Toluene and Lambda probes?? Chemical reaction (from Supra) Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:33:52 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Toluene and Lambda probes?? >What effect does Toluene at say 10% concentration in Super Unleaded >have on a normal lambda sensor? Sorry for all the Lambda sensor >contaminant questions,we are more used to race engines that don't run >them.I was considering adding Toluene to my 94 Supra twin turbo,as an >anti detonant if I play with raising the boost a bit.Good idea ? > >Thanks. > > >-- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com No prob that I know of--it is metals like lead, or additives with phosphorus which cause trouble. Too much sulphur is prolly also a problem. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 00:57:57 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: Toluene and Lambda probes?? Should not be a problem. According to the Exhaustive Gasoline Faq, regular gasoline can contain largish quantities of toluene depending on where in the world you are. http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part1.html one of many links to this excellent tome about fuels. - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:26:04 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Toluene and Lambda probes?? What effect does Toluene at say 10% concentration in Super Unleaded have on a normal lambda sensor? Sorry for all the Lambda sensor contaminant questions,we are more used to race engines that don't run them.I was considering adding Toluene to my 94 Supra twin turbo,as an anti detonant if I play with raising the boost a bit.Good idea ? Thanks. - - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com - ------------------------------ 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 20:35:54 -0500 From: Mike Turner Subject: Re: ABS Wheel sensor signal generator IIRC, my 86 vette has 63 teeth on the ABS bearing. The sensor appears to be a Hall effect (filings magnetically held to head). I would make a trip to the local yard and acquire one for your year, breadboard it up (12 and GND), and just supply a similar signal to the ECU. If DC, just use a 555 or a PIC directly coupled and correctly GND referenced. If AC, do the same but capacitively couple the signal. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 21:32:15 EDT From: Tedscj@xxx.com Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question In a message dated 4/4/99 6:58:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mail@xxx.com writes: > Dear God, am I going to show my age? Old Chrysler products were a > favorite of mine! > You planning to restore it? That would be a fun project. However a 325 hemi > was not the most powerful engine of that vintage. That is if the 325 is > really a hemi! If it is, it is the smallest hemi that I"ve ever heard of! > Are the spark plugs in the middle of the valve covers, or on the side? > If not in the middle of the valve covers, then it's not a hemi, if in the > middle of the valve covers, it's a hemi, but not (most likely) a '325'. > Maybe a 392, or a 354. yep, that's the plan (to restore). There is a 325 hemi produced by Dodge. They made them all the way down to 240 CI ! A friend of mine looked at it and got the serial#. It's definately a hemi. He looked at it again today and it has a single exhaust and only a 2speed auto though :( > > I'm trying to find out if that makes it the D500 > >option or if ALL Royal Customs came with Hemis. > > That I can't answer for sure, but there were other engine combinations. The > hemi was a top end engine, though. > > >If it had the dual 4bbl > >motor, then I'd be sure it was a D500 but it's only a single four which > >leaves me confused. > > I'm not sure that there was a dual 4bbl on the 325. whether the 325 is a > hemi or not, that would be way too much carb for the CI. Remember, a 325 is > a relatively small engine. When I built Chevy 327 race engines, we were > pushing with a larger 4bbl, and anything more was counter productive (we > would get about 450 HP, with an engine that was streetable, not easy but > drivable!) The top of the line hemi had 2x4 carbs. I agree that's overkill. Probably more of a marketing gimmick ... ,but I'd buy into it! it just looks cool! And if your going to buy anything from the fifties it's gonna be for looks. A '76 Vega with a Chevy 350 would be a far superior and more economical, practical, faster car... but yuck! > >The serial # on the motor was KD500-1151 which IS a Dodge Hemi motor for > the > >57 model year. I just don't know if this makes the CAR a D500 which > >seriously affects it's value. > > 2 door hardtop? that is just as important! Yep. > > > >Thanks for any direction to the info. > >Ted > > > > > Thanks, > Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) > 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon > > Ted ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 21:17:04 -0500 From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. Ok, so we know that H2O injection is good because is suppresses detonation allowing one to run higher effective compression ratios, and that it increases VE through charge cooling. The question I have is if it increases power though increased cylinder pressures... While I have not purchased the internal combustion books that have been recommended on the list (that I really need to get) it is my understanding that when gas and air are ignited, pressure in the cylinder is created through the chemical reaction of the mixture. Now in this process a great amount of heat is created and I guess this is where I need to ask a supporting question. Is the pressure in the cylinder a product of the greater volume of the resultant gases created through the chemical reaction, or rather from the heat of the reaction causing the gases to expand? Either way there is a great amount of left over heat from the process. By injecting into the cylinder water in liquid form, wouldn't the transformation to the gaseous state cause an increase in pressure? If so, is this increase significant when compared the pressure created by the gas and air? Steve N. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 23:02:20 -0400 From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question > You planning to restore it? That would be a fun project. However a 325 hemi > was not the most powerful engine of that vintage. That is if the 325 is > really a hemi! If it is, it is the smallest hemi that I"ve ever heard of! > Are the spark plugs in the middle of the valve covers, or on the side? > If not in the middle of the valve covers, then it's not a hemi, if in the > middle of the valve covers, it's a hemi, but not (most likely) a '325'. > Maybe a 392, or a 354. Obvious you haven't been around Mopar hemis long enough. The first Dodge Red Ram Hemi was 241 cubes with a 2 barrel carb that looked like it belonged to a lawn-mower engine (real small bores). What he has is, undoubtably, a 325 Hemi. Just a bit of experience from the 241 Red Ram end of things. I owned a VERY rare '53 Coronet Sierra 2 door Hemi wagon for over 7 years. I wish I knew where it is now! It was apparently the only such vehicle registered in Canada - at least in Ontario. It came up from Van Nuys California to Guelph Ont. in 1961 and stayed with a blown engine. I bought it in '71 and rebuilt it, then jumped through hoops for several months to get it registered. Drove it to PEI in '73 - with the factory overdrive it was good for better than 30 MPG (imperial) and would really honk, even in the heavy Coronet Wagon body (about equal to a 327 Chevy II) It was .060 over with a "semi-grind" cam - lumpy, but it would still idle at 650. Heavy was hardly the word to describe the engine (it was extremely heavy)- but nor was slow!! 18 hours Kitchener to Murray Harbour, including rest stops and ferry crossing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 23:19:37 -0400 From: "Clarence L.Snyder" Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question > 2 door hardtop? that is just as important! Rough value estimate ( from 1992)- 1957 Custom Royal 2 dr HT in #1 shape is $17,000 US. D500 adds 30%, for a rough value of just over 22 grand. In #4 condition its still worth over $4500 US. Only convertibles of any year will fetch a higher price, and the '57 is a DEFINITE colector car. This is about as rare as the '57 Plymouth Fury 318 2X4 (290 HP) which is the rarest, or at least most collectable Plymouth from the 40s to the 60s. Definitely worth restoring RIGHT!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:55:55 +1200 From: Mike Morrin Subject: Re: Toluene and Lambda probes?? At 10:26 pm 04/04/99 +0100, Chris Wilson wrote: >What effect does Toluene at say 10% concentration in Super Unleaded >have on a normal lambda sensor? I presume it is compatible. I don't know about the US, but super inleaded in this country (New Zealand) often contains quite a bit of Toluene (up to about 30% I think). One memorable shipment was 60% Toluene, and caused several engine fires in older vehicles when the rubber fuel components dissolved. I have not heard of it killing lambda sensors. regards, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:55:55 +1200 From: Mike Morrin Subject: Re: Toluene and Lambda probes?? At 10:26 pm 04/04/99 +0100, Chris Wilson wrote: >What effect does Toluene at say 10% concentration in Super Unleaded >have on a normal lambda sensor? I presume it is compatible. I don't know about the US, but super inleaded in this country (New Zealand) often contains quite a bit of Toluene (up to about 30% I think). One memorable shipment was 60% Toluene, and caused several engine fires in older vehicles when the rubber fuel components dissolved. I have not heard of it killing lambda sensors. regards, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:15:09 EDT From: A70Duster@xxx.com Subject: Chemical reaction (from Supra) If you were to ignite fuel and air (C8H18 + 12.5 O2 >>> 8 CO2 + 9 H20) with no addition of heat from the reaction, you would get a 36% increase in pressure. With ignition (assume 1600°F temp increase after combustion, PV=nRT, and 80°F init temp) an increase in pressure of 380% from addition of heat. THIS IS JUST BALL PARKISH!!!!! The idea Otto cycle is (during combustion) a pressure increase. Add water during this pressure and heat is taken away so less pressure against the piston. Some pressure is gained from the vaporization of water, but I "guess" that would not make up for the heat loss/pressure decrease. See ya, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 22:39:45 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question >The top of the line hemi had 2x4 carbs. I agree that's overkill. Probably >more of a marketing gimmick ... Not necessarily--four barrel carbs were a LOT smaller in those days than what we are used to!! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:05:49 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Toyota Supra twin turbo and water injection. >Ok, so we know that H2O injection is good because is suppresses >detonation allowing one to run higher effective compression ratios, and >that it increases VE through charge cooling. The question I have is if >it increases power though increased cylinder pressures... IF you can get the water atomized and into the cylinder and the intake valve closed , without first evaporating the water (which would lose power by displacing large amounts of oxygen)--------------------------------- 1. It increases the net power by greatly reducing the work the engine must give back to the compression stroke. (Makes the compression process more nearly isothermal than adiabatic.) 2. It reduces the peak temperature in the chamber considerably, thus increasing power and efficiency by reducing the amount of heat rejected to the water jackets substantially. 3. It reduces net power and cycle efficiency to a significant degree because of the lowering of peak cycle temperature. (Even though cylinder pressures are higher.) The NET result if this is all done RIGHT can be a net gain, in both power output AND bsfc, of about 8%. More if you take advantage of the ability to run a higher effective compression ratio on a given fuel. Together with a reduction of 350 to 400 degrees in EGT, and the improvement in reliability which that implies. Doing it right includes NOT using any more water than what will produce gas at TDC which is saturated with respect to the partial pressure of water vapor in it at whatever specific gas volume and temperature you end up with at TDC!!! Any more water than this will just detract from power, bsfc, and cycle efficiency by overcooling things. With a turbo(s) you will need a somewhat higher pressure ratio across the turbine (more backpressure) to get the same boost, because of the lower EGT going into the turbine(s). You will also need a smaller trim turbine, tighter A/R ratio housing because, even though the exhaust gas MASS flow is a bit more, the lower temp means it is significantly denser. But not proportionally smaller, Because the lower EGT also means that Mach 1 for the exhaust gas is lower, and a properly sized turbine nozzle usually is running at about Mach .7 or .8 exhaust gas velocity. (Mach 1 for any given gas varies only with its absolute temperature, not with its density!) Have calculated all of this in quite a bit of detail, got the tee shirt, eaten the Excedrin! Now, wanna build an engine to prove it!! Suggestions for an ecu that can run FOUR injectors PER cylinder now being accepted! Regards, Greg > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:28:48 EDT From: JRECPA@xxx.com Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question In a message dated 4/4/99 8:51:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, clare.snyder.on.ca@xxx.net writes: << Rough value estimate ( from 1992)- 1957 Custom Royal 2 dr HT in #1 shape is $17,000 US. D500 adds 30%, for a rough value of just over 22 grand. In #4 condition its still worth over $4500 US. Only convertibles of any year will fetch a higher price, and the '57 is a DEFINITE colector car. This is about as rare as the '57 Plymouth Fury 318 2X4 (290 HP) which is the rarest, or at least most collectable Plymouth from the 40s to the 60s. Definitely worth restoring RIGHT!!!! >> I looked in another book I have and it said that Dodge offered the D500 option across the board on anything from the plain Coronet on up. The hemi engine option was available on all models. The only difference i can see in the book is the fact that the D-500 weight is 3885 lbs compared to 3530 lbs for the D66 Coronet V-8. James ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:20:02 -0500 From: "G. Scott Ponton" Subject: Re: '50s MOPAR Hemi question Nothing really important to say !!!! But ........ Chrysler built hemi's as small as 291 and 331 in the 50's. The 291 was called a Firedome and the 331 was a Red Ram Or do I have that backwards . I am new on this list and am still trying to get through all the archives. Might take a few more weeks. After which maybe I will have something "real" to say. Scott ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #211 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".