DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, April 7 1999 Volume 04 : Number 215 In this issue: Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out Re: DFI vs TEC II Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 Re: TBI below butterflys Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? Re: DFI or Tec II Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out Re: DFI vs TEC II RE: Halp Diamond Star Motored out Re: Injector driver question... Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 Fuel Injector Flow Bench Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Below Butterfly TBI Re: Fuel Injector Flow Bench RE: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: OFF TOPIC: convertible tops Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? RE: EFI Head Volume Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: TEC II Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 07:14:10 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out At 10:53 PM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >Hi Gang > >Got a problem that maybe someone more in the know can help me. > >90 Lazer, poor mans talon with 2.0 dual overhead cam no turbo engine >has a no start and we tried for one whole day to start it.. > >47 psi pressure, injectors firing. plugs wet with fuel, drowned actually. >Visible spark on all cyl. is a bit orangey though.. >Ecm gives the 111111 ok same as code 12 gm.. >Cams timing dead on mark.. Peter, Since the plugs are wet with fuel, I'd leave the plugs out for a day and try again with fresh plugs... The orange spark may be the battery is down on charge, or the coil is going/gone. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 07:50:38 -0400 From: Dan Llewellyn2 Subject: Re: DFI vs TEC II You may want to consider Motec and Xytek. Both are high quality units from a software and hardware viewpoint. Expensive, but worth it, I think. Dan L ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: andy quaas Subject: Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out I agree. I would think that the spark would be blue-ish in color if it was good enough. Andy p.s. does it sputter at all when you try and start it? > Peter, > Since the plugs are wet with fuel, I'd leave the > plugs out for a day and > try again with fresh plugs... > The orange spark may be the battery is down on > charge, or the coil is > going/gone. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:55:31 -0500 From: Thomas Martin Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 Has anyone pondered the idea of TBI injection with the injector spray BELOW the throttle body? Does it NEED to be above? It seems to me that it would be messing up the atomization running into the throttle blade. Have the injectors able to spray down the runner to the port? Or is this far more trouble than anything you could gain? (like go with sequential port) I am looking to convert my 85 Cutlass with a Rocket 350 over to TBI, would I gain much if anything over my nicely running E4MC Q-Jet? Can I adapt a TPI from a SB Chevy to this engine? Thanks! Thomas Martin 85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC 91 Bonneville LE 3800 80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Poncho Power ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:06:49 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: TBI below butterflys At 08:55 AM 4/7/99 -0500, you wrote: > Has anyone pondered the idea of TBI injection with the injector spray > BELOW the throttle body? Does it NEED to be above? It seems to me that > it would be messing up the atomization running into the throttle blade. > > Have the injectors able to spray down the runner to the port? Or is this > far more trouble than anything you could gain? (like go with sequential > port) > This may actually cause more problems... with the injectors above the throttle butterflys, the air is moving at a higher velocity past the injector (better atomization) if you put it below the throttle plate, distribution and atomization would likely suffer... if you want injectors below the TB, port injection is best... Because you're not injecting into the plenum, the flow is higher at each port, and the timed shot can be spraying as the intake valve is opening, causing better atomization and control. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:30:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? I have been adjusting my wot fuel. I have was removing 3% on the wot fuel map in the prom, as far as I can tell 3% here does not actually mean removing 3% fuel, but when I was doing this, I did lower the injector pulsewidths about .1 ms (pulsewidth about 7.5 ms range). The graph of the injector pulsewidths is very clearly lower each time fuel is removed. The O2's sensor readins don't appear to have changed any over the various runs, my 60ft times did get better each run I removed fuel, so I do feel I was doing something that was improving things. The O2's are running 860-880 range, so my guess is I have a ways to go to get things down. I know the O2 are pretty crude for measuring fuel, but if I am targeting say 12.5:1 what is a safe O2 reading to go for? I know others with my car tune for 810mv (they used a dyno), and others have said do worry about burning a piston until below 800mv, is this a pretty safe set of assumptions? If I should mostly be safe above 800mv I will slowly remove fuel and attempt to use the times to determine if things are improved. Roger 93 Z28 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:18:22 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? Roger, It's all going to depend on your O2 sensor as to what voltage is safe for you... I was talking with someone last night that had 3 different O2 sensors (new) that all read different but within about a 100mv range of each other for the same conditions... Is it safe to assume that when you get lean enough to do damage the engine will knock? if not you'll need an Exhaust temp guage. At 09:30 AM 4/7/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I have been adjusting my wot fuel. I have was removing 3% on the wot >fuel map in the prom, as far as I can tell 3% here does not actually >mean removing 3% fuel, but when I was doing this, I did lower the >injector pulsewidths about .1 ms (pulsewidth about 7.5 ms range). The >graph of the injector pulsewidths is very clearly lower each time fuel >is removed. The O2's sensor readins don't appear to have changed any >over the various runs, my 60ft times did get better each run I removed >fuel, so I do feel I was doing something that was improving things. >The O2's are running 860-880 range, so my guess is I have a ways to go >to get things down. I know the O2 are pretty crude for measuring >fuel, but if I am targeting say 12.5:1 what is a safe O2 reading to go >for? I know others with my car tune for 810mv (they used a dyno), and >others have said do worry about burning a piston until below 800mv, is >this a pretty safe set of assumptions? If I should mostly be safe >above 800mv I will slowly remove fuel and attempt to use the times to >determine if things are improved. > > Roger > 93 Z28 > =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:28:53 EDT From: RSRACE@xxx.com Subject: Re: DFI or Tec II Hope you downloaded your mail and now you can look at the TEC-II again ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:38:50 -0400 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, andy quaas wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) > From: andy quaas > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out > > I agree. I would think that the spark would be blue-ish in color if it > was good enough. blue is good but don't some cars always have orange sparks at low speed? > > Andy > p.s. does it sputter at all when you try and start it? > > > Peter, > > Since the plugs are wet with fuel, I'd leave the > > plugs out for a day and or if your significant other is understanding bake them to dry them off ( my wife lets me dry HER plugs this way I have to torch my plugs outside 8-) > > try again with fresh plugs... > > The orange spark may be the battery is down on > > charge, or the coil is > > going/gone. > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @xxx.com > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:39:36 EDT From: RSRACE@xxx.com Subject: Re: DFI vs TEC II I have worked with the Tec and have seen Haltech on various cars. I would recomend the TEC because it does make power. But I think the Haltech has better resolution in the fuel and ignition maps. The price of the haltech is about the same as TEC if you have to pay for software for TEC. There is another system that I'm looking into that has safety features built into the software/ECU. It will richen the fuel and lower boost if EGT reaches a critical value. Also has a boost fuel cut. It also has a LCD display which can display all vital engine parameters which is definitly worth a few hundred in gauges. Haltech allows you to download there software which is very useful in determining which one you want to buy. I can't tell you much about DFI but I do know they also charge for software. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:55:56 -0700 From: "Stegbauer, Michael" Subject: RE: Halp Diamond Star Motored out Dude, Lasers are the best! 47psi sounds way high... I believe the fuel pressure spec for a non-turbo is around 38psi (might be 42psi, and this is on the 92). The ECM will hardly ever flag a bad crank angle sensor because the car won't start (or will stall) before the diag window runs out. The CAS is about $400 new, but you can get discounts on all new DSM parts (read on). Be careful if you pick up a used one, the 90 is different from the 92 and on (I'm not sure about 91). I think the transistors are about $120 each but there are 2, so a single death would probably yield different results per cylinder. The Idle Switch (if you're talking about the on/off switch on theTB) does just about nothing. A good portion of these get dirty and stop functioning but the driver never notices. The TPS itself could be a cause of no start. You can pick up a used non-eprom ECU for probably $150 on the trader. If there is something wrong with the ECU, it's probably the capacitors. They have a habit of leaking and melting a hole through the PCB. There are instructions on how to check/fix this at www.tmo.com. Lastly (off the top of my head), the NT has a MAF by virtue of it's blown brethren. If the MAF is reading high, the ECU has no feedback to counteract the problem during open loop at startup. It can't be tested without an o-scope. Find a local DSMer, buy him or her a beer and swap a few parts. The (used) parts trader is trader.dsm.org, the main digest is www.dsm.org where you'll find discount friendly dealers (vendors.dsm.org) and ~8 years of archives. Cheers, Mike Oh, didn't realize you way up there. The prices noted are US$. - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Fenske [mailto:pfenske@xxx.ca] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 12:54 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re:Halp Diamond Star Motored out Hi Gang Got a problem that maybe someone more in the know can help me. 90 Lazer, poor mans talon with 2.0 dual overhead cam no turbo engine has a no start and we tried for one whole day to start it.. 47 psi pressure, injectors firing. plugs wet with fuel, drowned actually. Visible spark on all cyl. is a bit orangey though.. Ecm gives the 111111 ok same as code 12 gm.. Cams timing dead on mark.. Tps idle switch is dead but not cause of no start When the dodges guys at the counter stopped laughing and saying why on earth did you guys get a lazer they said bout 100 $ for a simple switch. Think we will use door jam switch.. Okay normal Gmese wisdom don't work here. Junk er recycler says eh what when we ask if he has a used ecm or cam/crank sensor or trans ign amp each item bout 500$ new..laughs a whole bunch too So besides using this car as a barbeque any ideas definitely upset peter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:21:31 -0400 From: Hugo Villeneuve Subject: Re: Injector driver question... Hi, I finally managed to obtain decent values for the injector current (high and low impedance injectors). The problem was a faulty resistor (it was a 0.1 ohms resistor, supposedly), which gave a false reading of the current. Now everything is normal, the current for the high impedance injector is about 0.75A, and so my circuit (the same in fact as in the National Semiconductors datasheet) based on the LM1949 can drive high and low impedance injectors without modifications. Hugo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:19:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, David A. Cooley wrote: > Roger, > It's all going to depend on your O2 sensor as to what voltage is safe for > you... > I was talking with someone last night that had 3 different O2 sensors (new) > that all read different but within about a 100mv range of each other for > the same conditions... > Is it safe to assume that when you get lean enough to do damage the engine > will knock? if not you'll need an Exhaust temp guage. > > I don't think I will knock, I have a pretty big cam, and it has never knocked before (well nothing identifible as real knock, just false knock). I guess if I want to be safe on the knock I cna mix some 100 unleaded with my gas, and then it won't knock. The way I determine it was false knock was I ran 1/4 with normal gas, and a 1/4 with 50% 100, so there was no way it should have knocked, and it still knocked at exactly the same points. That was what I was worried about. I have two identical (well as close to identical as possible with electronic sensors) bosch sensors, and reducing fuel was not changing the O2 values, and it was speeding the car up (it should start not speeding up anymore when I start getting close to 12.5:1). What kind of ratio are we talking about to be too lean ? Any ideal what ratio is bad? Would stoch (14.7:1) cause problems? Where would someone buy a EGT sensor? I figured I might in the future, get a pic with a A/D, and program it to sample the A/D's and also program it to read out the GM computer, and button that up into 1 serial data stream (probably 19,200 baud) and send that to a laptop for futher processing. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:26:49 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? At 11:19 AM 4/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >That was what I was worried about. I have two identical (well as >close to identical as possible with electronic sensors) bosch sensors, >and reducing fuel was not changing the O2 values, and it was speeding >the car up (it should start not speeding up anymore when I start >getting close to 12.5:1). What kind of ratio are we talking about to >be too lean ? Any ideal what ratio is bad? Would stoch (14.7:1) >cause problems? > Not sure what target is going to be for best power at WOT... that will probably vary with each different engine... 14.7 would be too lean at WOT.. Definitely hurt something there! >Where would someone buy a EGT sensor? I figured I might in the >future, get a pic with a A/D, and program it to sample the A/D's and >also program it to read out the GM computer, and button that up into 1 >serial data stream (probably 19,200 baud) and send that to a laptop >for futher processing. There are several of the turbo aftermarket parts suppliers that sell EGT sensors... check out the Buick GN web page at: http://www.gnttype.org/ and check out the suppliers page... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated. =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:51:53 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Slightly skewed topic,please forgive me,but no doubt someone here can point me to an online source of information with regard to ceramic tubocharger technology.For example,the Toyota MR2 turbo proudly displays a badge "Twin entry ceramic turbo" within the engine bay.What I want to know is if the shaft,impeller wheel(s) or bearings are "ceramic". Thanks. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 13:10:18 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 Thomas Martin wrote: > > Has anyone pondered the idea of TBI injection with the injector spray > BELOW the throttle body? Does it NEED to be above? It seems to me that > it would be messing up the atomization running into the throttle blade. > > Have the injectors able to spray down the runner to the port? Or is this > far more trouble than anything you could gain? (like go with sequential > port) > > I am looking to convert my 85 Cutlass with a Rocket 350 over to TBI, > would I gain much if anything over my nicely running E4MC Q-Jet? > Can I adapt a TPI from a SB Chevy to this engine? I don't know if there are any adapters to put Chevy manifolds on Olds engines, but I have seen pictures from a company that makes custom EFI intakes for them. Think they're on the web. Otherwise you might be better off making your own manifold. EFI really increases driveability over carbs. Shannen > > Thanks! > Thomas Martin > 85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC > 91 Bonneville LE 3800 > 80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Poncho Power ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:22:23 -0600 From: Andrew Subject: Fuel Injector Flow Bench Just curious... Has anyone on the list built the fuel injector flow bench? If so, how well does it work? Thanks, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:18:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Andre Grandi Subject: Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Chris, The turbine impeller shaft is ceramic. The bearings are typical brass alloy and the compressor wheel is aluminum. Your welcome Andre - - What I want to know is if the shaft,impeller wheel(s) or bearings > are "ceramic". > > Thanks. > > > -- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com > > > === Andre _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Andre Grandi Subject: Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Chris, Slight correction: only the turbine wheel is ceramic, the shaft is not. Andre - --- Chris Wilson wrote: > Slightly skewed topic,please forgive me,but no doubt someone here can > point me to an online source of information with regard to ceramic > tubocharger technology.For example,the Toyota MR2 turbo proudly > displays a badge "Twin entry ceramic turbo" within the engine > bay.What I want to know is if the shaft,impeller wheel(s) or bearings > are "ceramic". > > Thanks. > > > -- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com > > > === Andre _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:35:25 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Below Butterfly TBI - ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 1:10 PM Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 Accel sells on, like that. Bruce > Thomas Martin wrote: > > Has anyone pondered the idea of TBI injection with the injector spray > > BELOW the throttle body? Does it NEED to be above? It seems to me that > > it would be messing up the atomization running into the throttle blade. > > Have the injectors able to spray down the runner to the port? Or is this > > far more trouble than anything you could gain? (like go with sequential > > port) > > I am looking to convert my 85 Cutlass with a Rocket 350 over to TBI, > > would I gain much if anything over my nicely running E4MC Q-Jet? > > Can I adapt a TPI from a SB Chevy to this engine? > I don't know if there are any adapters to put Chevy manifolds on Olds > engines, but I have seen pictures from a company that makes custom EFI > intakes for them. Think they're on the web. Otherwise you might be > better off making your own manifold. > EFI really increases driveability over carbs. > Shannen > > Thanks! > > Thomas Martin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:47:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Flow Bench Oh boy... Better check out the archives! There is a lot of great info there. Andy p.s. I learned this the hard way. - --- Andrew wrote: > Just curious... > Has anyone on the list built the fuel injector flow > bench? If so, how well > does it work? > > Thanks, > Andrew > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:56:29 -0500 From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Subject: RE: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? The wheels are ceramic, some cases just the turbine wheel is ceramic. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Wilson [SMTP:chris@xxx.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 11:52 AM > To: DIY_EFI Mailing List > Subject: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? > > Slightly skewed topic,please forgive me,but no doubt someone here can > point me to an online source of information with regard to ceramic > tubocharger technology.For example,the Toyota MR2 turbo proudly > displays a badge "Twin entry ceramic turbo" within the engine > bay.What I want to know is if the shaft,impeller wheel(s) or bearings > are "ceramic". > > Thanks. > > > -- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:32:00 From: Bob Tom Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: convertible tops On April 6, Steve Ravet & Shannen Durphey wrote: >any custom type people here who have added convertible tops >or hard tops to cars that didn't originally have them >I won't ask to keep this on list, but I'm interested as well. >If anyone has any info/experiences here, please let me know About 5-10 years ago, my son worked on fixing a rusting 1969 Pontiac 2+2 convertible. The car was such bad shape that he did a frame off 'restoration' combining the front post forward of the 2+2 with the front post backward of a '69 Pontiac Catalina hardtop. This involved cutting the roof off the Catalina, welding in some extra structural support, etc. If this is similar to something you had in mind, e-mail privately and I'll pass your enquiries to him (he now has his own home) and e-mail his answers to you. Bob Tom Burlington, Ont. tigers@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:32:51 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Heflin To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 12:19 PM Subject: Re: Suggestions for Adjusting WOT fuel? Couple things, Knock is real, no two ways about it. May be a false indication due to poor electronics, but to accurately tell if you have knock, means pulling plugs, unless you have an ionization detection unit running. Even saying you don't hear it means just that there is no audible knock. You can always run first gear leaner then the rest. With the additional gear multiplication of the tranny you can't develope AS much heat as when in the higher gears. Heat meaning engine load. Any one who has put too much gear in a stock motored car can tell ya about how lame they can get.. Once tuned you can use the O2 as a rough indicator of all's well. But, that still should be supported by reading the plugs........... You can (any one really) can screw up the tune up to not generate audible knock, and kick the rings out of it... With the better exhuast valves, that fuse is no longer around. Again, IMHO. EGT doesn't tell you anything about the level of tune that your dealing with. Just how close you are to the thermal limits of you engine. Meaning you can have a rocket at 1550dF or a pig at 1550dF. Depending on the depth of your wallet sets the limit of EGT temp, and experimenting at what the limit is for your engine. The trick to tune-up is actually measuring what your doing in performance. Yes, Doc, I know it's time for my meds now Bruce > > Roger, > > It's all going to depend on your O2 sensor as to what voltage is safe for > > you... > > I was talking with someone last night that had 3 different O2 sensors (new) > > that all read different but within about a 100mv range of each other for > > the same conditions... > > Is it safe to assume that when you get lean enough to do damage the engine > > will knock? if not you'll need an Exhaust temp guage. > I don't think I will knock, I have a pretty big cam, and it has never > knocked before (well nothing identifible as real knock, just false > knock). I guess if I want to be safe on the knock I cna mix some 100 > unleaded with my gas, and then it won't knock. The way I determine it > was false knock was I ran 1/4 with normal gas, and a 1/4 with 50% 100, > so there was no way it should have knocked, and it still knocked at > exactly the same points. > That was what I was worried about. I have two identical (well as > close to identical as possible with electronic sensors) bosch sensors, > and reducing fuel was not changing the O2 values, and it was speeding > the car up (it should start not speeding up anymore when I start > getting close to 12.5:1). What kind of ratio are we talking about to > be too lean ? Any ideal what ratio is bad? Would stoch (14.7:1) > cause problems? > Where would someone buy a EGT sensor? I figured I might in the > future, get a pic with a A/D, and program it to sample the A/D's and > also program it to read out the GM computer, and button that up into 1 > serial data stream (probably 19,200 baud) and send that to a laptop > for futher processing. > Roger ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:38:36 -0500 From: "Kurek, Larry" Subject: RE: EFI Head Volume Guys, Although this question is NOT EFI related, so I question why it is on this list, the stock L98 iron heads are 64cc while the aluminum are 58. I'd suggest for questions like this, in the future, post to an F-body or other such related list... TTYL! Larry > > The stock cast iron head is 58.5? Whoa, I thought it would > have a bigger > chamber than that. Thanks for the info. > > Also quench area is critical in preventing pre-ignition so he > would rather > increase the combustion chamber volume than shim the head up. > Thanks again. > Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Piccioni > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 9:46 AM > Subject: RE: EFI Head Volume > > > >The head cc's should be 58.5 if the heads have not been cut. > One possible > >method (depending on how much boost he wants to run) is to > use Fel-Pro's > >head save gasket shim, it adds ~0.040" in thickness which roughly > >translates into ~ 0.8 -> 1.0 drop in C.R. This would save a > bunch of $$$ on > >AL heads if that is what he would like to do......... > > > >/Marc > > > >---------- > >From: Mark Romans[SMTP:romans@xxx.net] > >Sent: April 4, 1999 12:45 AM > >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu; EFI > >Subject: EFI Head Volume > > > >I have a friend who has an 89 Firebird 5.7 w/tpi and a > Vortech and he has > >the stock cast iron heads. (No casting #) and we are trying > to determine > >what the stock head combustion chamber volume is. He wants to go to > >aluminum heads and drop his compression to 8.0-8.5 to one > range. Anyone > >know what the stock cast iron L98 F-Body app combustion > chamber CC's are? > >Thanks. Mark > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 22:13:43 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? In article <19990407181919.9595.rocketmail@xxx.com>, Andre Grandi apparently wrote: > Chris, > Slight correction: only the turbine wheel is ceramic, the shaft is not. This is interesting :-) A UK turbo firm (Turbo Technics) has *apparently* been making a batch of rebuilt Jap Supra turbos,as there are now enough of them in the UK to warrant this move.I was *told* that they had tooled up to grind the replacement shafts in steel,which led me to believe that the ceramic OE turbos used a ceramic *shaft*.All this is hearsay,but it made me try and research ceramic turbo technology on the net,with little result. Are you saying the *shafts* are always made of steel? Thanks for the reply. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:14:20 -0700 From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Subject: Re: TEC II <> Hmm, and we don't need to spend money building Tomahawk cruise missles, we don't need them. Wrong. <> Well, since it takes about 1 millisec for an injector to "recover" (which has to be allowed for in the PW formula), I don't think you have to have the pulse width that low, for a street car. <> Simply using a standard Bosch 4 wire EGO is fine. Standard 0-1v scale. The EGO correction factor should not be the only control you have over the A/F ratio, anyway. <> I tapped my factory engine speed sensor (uses a 60 tooth crank wheel, like the TEC II one). had to allow for the timing difference in the software (factory reads off the 13th tooth, TEC II wants it to read off the 11th tooth). So, my advance was 12 degrees off from the start (value of "0" in the software). Shoot it w/ a digital light, plug that value into the "initial advance", and now 0=0. My Electro crank wheel appeared to be laser cut, and would still work fine. Some clean-up machine work would definitely help to get really crisp edges on the teeth. Again, mine isn't even being used... <> You don't HAVE to do anything. You CAN do a few medium power data logging runs, and then tweak values as you go. Or, you can tune for power on a dyno. I prefer a load type dyno. <> Yes...and no. You can change parameters at any time, in real time, while driving or dynoing. To download those changed values into permanent settings, the ignition must be turned off, and it takes about 10 seconds to flash the PROM. I feel your pain. It's a flaw. <> I don't understand what you're trying to say here (grammer). Are you saying that you have to wait until the turbo cools off, before you can remove the TEC II? Please explain. As for the dyno money...hey, when getting an aftermarket ECU/ignition...you should expect to hit the dyno anyway, and pay the fiddler. Headaches? I don't know of ANY ECU that tunes itself, while you crack beers. Fact is, you have to know a bit about EFI and your individual engine/car before you tackle the tuning aspect. That goes for any aftermarket set-up, not just the TEC II. <> I've noticed that the low rpm voltage compensation isn't the greatest. When the headlights are turned on, or the electric fan kicks in at idle...it stumbles, and the rpms drop. Needs work here. <> Haven't had any problems here. <> Not really. You don't have to start from scratch. You keep the same advance table, and A/F ratio, and just about every other parameter. A few "gamma" tweaks and a few IOT (injector offset) tweaks, and you're OK. What software are you using? Were you using the TEC I? I'm using PAF Blend, BTW. Bottom line: Any aftermarket ECU will constitute a large portion of your time, to install & tune. The tuning part is endless, because you always want more power...and let's face it...it's a pretty good time we all live in when you can screw around with your engine via a laptop! It serves a purpose, but it takes time, effort, and a lot of experience. Trial and error, on the dyno, usually gets the best results. The DFI and the TEC II are great values for what they offer. I went for the TEC II. The ignition is really good, and it's a single part (unlike the old TEC I). Be sure to mount the unit away from heat, if possible (it is subject to heat soak, if mounted to the engine). Heat shields go a long way to avoiding problems. The TEC II is good for about 40hp-70hp (over Bosch Motronic)on a turbo VW VR6 application (when tuned properly, and running 15psi+). 400hp@wheels in a daily driven VW Corrado? It's possible. Enjoy... Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:36:06 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? That's interesting. The Supra 3.0L is rumored to have the same turbo, but with a different exit on the ex-housing. It's a Toyo-CT26 unit, that someone mentioned was really a Hitachi manufactured piece for Toyo.. MV > Slightly skewed topic,please forgive me,but no doubt someone here can > point me to an online source of information with regard to ceramic > tubocharger technology.For example,the Toyota MR2 turbo proudly > displays a badge "Twin entry ceramic turbo" within the engine > bay.What I want to know is if the shaft,impeller wheel(s) or bearings > are "ceramic". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:07:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Andre Grandi Subject: Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? Chris, > Are you saying the *shafts* are always made of steel? > > Thanks for the reply. All the toyota CT-20/26's that I have seen and rebuilt were with steel shafts. We used to make a T3 fit in a Toyota turbo since you cannot buy individual components from Toyota. They want to sell you a complete Turbo for 2000$. We even had to cast our own turbine housings to make it work. I have not read/seen/heard about ceramic turbine shafts but if you find a source that has them I would be interested in the details. Later, Andre === Andre _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:11:28 -0400 From: Jay Wallace Subject: Re: Ceramic turbocharger info source?? At 05:36 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >That's interesting. The Supra 3.0L is rumored to have >the same turbo, but with a different exit on the ex-housing. > It's a Toyo-CT26 unit, that someone mentioned was really >a Hitachi manufactured piece for Toyo.. >MV > As far as I know, both Nissan (Fairlady Z) and Toyota (Supra) offered ceramic turbos in Japan. As I recall, the rotors were press-fit on a metal shaft then individually balanced and spin tested. The rotors came from several different ceramic companies in Japan but, as far as I know, none was ever exported. They are still being offered, but sales have dried up due to a hefty surcharge and changing tax laws in Japan. FWIW, over 1 million ceramic turbos have been sold and they have not yet had a field failure. Not bad for a highly stressed brittle material. I suspect that any "ceramic turbocharger" in this country had just ceramic bearings or maybe a ceramic thermal barrier coating, unless it was a black market import. Jay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:28:38 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #214 > Has anyone pondered the idea of TBI injection with the injector spray > BELOW the throttle body? Does it NEED to be above? It seems to me that > it would be messing up the atomization running into the throttle blade. > > Have the injectors able to spray down the runner to the port? Or is this > far more trouble than anything you could gain? (like go with sequential > port) > Accel have a setup exactly as you describe. 4 barrels, and one injector below each throttle blade. The *injection above* style TBI systems take advantage of shear and turbulence around the sharp edges of the blades, to mix and homogenize the fuel/air charge during low to medium airflow conditions, and work pretty well. At some throttle openings, you can get fuel bias towards one set of cylinders or another, as the blade can act as a big "paddle". Unless you are using the big 52mm 454 TBI, this is typically not a huge problem. The *injection below* systems rely upon the injectors to atomize the fuel. At high airflow, this works well. However, at low to medium airflow the injector spends a lot of its time "wetting" the opposite wall (manifold or throttle bore) and can introduce part throttle driveability problems. Both systems work, but if you need good driveability and part throttle "snappiness" then I'd stick with the *above injection* systems. Walt. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #215 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".