DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, April 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 220 In this issue: Re: Torque measurement Re: 302 or 460 build up 302 vs 460 Re: 302 vs 460 Re: 302 vs 460 Monitoring knock sensor signals? Re: 302 vs 460 Re: Carl Summers please Good reading (DIS) is there a basic Chevy v8 list ? Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? RE: Monitoring knock sensor signals? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Apr 99 20:08:29 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Re: Torque measurement Eric Schumacher wrote: >Long ago there were some guys that bolted a linear position sensor to the >fire wall (for transverse engines) and the input shaft to the top of the >block. Amount of position shift of engine against mounts indicated amount >of torque. Was caliblated with torque rwrench on crank end with car in high >gear and front bumper against a tree. In-accuracies are due to the changes >of properties of rebber when it changes temp. Sounds good. What about putting a postion sensor on both the inner and outer CV joint (for front wheel drive engine) and measuring the twist in the driveshaft? My Mini has a 450mm by 25mm driveshaft. Anyone know rough calculations for torque v twist? The motor puts about 340 Nm on the ground (100Nm at the crank) in top gear. - -- Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.com - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:11:56 -0500 From: Steve Gorkowski Subject: Re: 302 or 460 build up There are adapter plates out there that let you use 351c heads with intake on 351w block. My race engine has them on. They still make the intake but use the adapters they are cheaper solution. Steve donna habel wrote: > The company that made the special intake to mate 351C heads on the 351W > block has gone out of business. Unless you can find one at a swap meet or > want to custom fab an intake this route is out. This was something folks > did to pump up the power of a 351W when there wasn't any performance parts > for it. Nowdays the speed parts for 351W blocks are available and > relatively cheap. > > Bruce Habel > 69 Cougar w/351W > 69 Cougar w/351C - efi project wannabe > 69 Cougar convertible w/nothing > > At 07:59 AM 4/9/1999 -0600, you wrote: > >HI-- > > > >Did anybody say a Clevor yet?? (351W block with 351C heads of the 2 barrel > >persuasion.) > > > >>Greetings, > > > >>I have to agree on the 351. Look at the December 1998 issue of Hot Rod and > >>see the FI unit they built. > >> > >>I would love to have this in my Lincoln. > >> > >>David > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com> > >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > >>Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 8:26 PM > >>Subject: Re: 302 or 460 build up > >> > >> > >>|Gary Derian > >>|> > >>|> > >>|> >Hi All; > >>|> > This isn't strickly efi but efi will go on it so.. > >>|> >I'm getting a 302 ( 5.0L) or a 460 (7.3L) to build for a light car > >>|> >Hp isn't what I'm after I want torque ( more fun, less tickets) > >>|> > > >>|> >what would you guys suggest for around 300hp and lotsa grunt( the 460 > >>|will > >>|> >be closer to 400hp) > >>|> > >>| > >>| Gary > >>| I want to cast my vote for a well built 302 rather than either a 351 or > >>460. > >>| A -- The 460 is too big and heavy for any light street car. > >>| B -- The 351 is heavier and taller than the 302, and will get you about > >>17 > >>|percent more HP than the 302. > >>| C -- The Windsor 351 heads can be installed on the 302. The block can be > >>|redrilled to accept the larger 351 stud diameter. > >>| D -- You can get a cam to provide you with the 'torque at RPM' that want. > >>I > >>|bet that a stock cam , slightly advanced , will get you as much low RPM > >>|torque as any street machine you will ever try to impress. > >>| > >>| Just my 2 cents worth Jerry > >>| > >>| > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:54:52 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: 302 vs 460 What type vehicle are you using? With less than the weight of a fat lady separating the two and much of that compensatible by moving the battery to the trunk, aluminum intake and headers - contrary to popular opinion it aint gonna matter much. Size - it's not that much bigger - go measure one. Performance. When you are into massive overkill on a 302, you are about a good street buildup on a 385. If RPM is your thing, stick a 370 ( 3.09") crank in it and experience the song of power. The best aftermarket 302/351 intake flow about like a 385 exhaust - and then there is the aftermarket heads - priced about the same - and willing to take you into the stratosphere - and they be aluminum. So size is your thing - an iron SVO block will take you out to 600+ cubic inches. Aluminum to much much more. Build the torquiest 302/351 you want. Then build a 460, put a radical cam and intake on it optimized for mid upper range. The residual torque left over will still exceed that of the 320/351 and when it comes on the cam - it be all over - you can't put enough positive pressure on a 302 to catch a wound up 385. A bore and offset crank can take you over 500 cubic inches. So whine and snivel and wimp out with a sissy block. You will never experience the gut tearing rumble of a big block coming on. You will never see the fear and terror in her eyes as you blip the throttle and break traction in any gear at just about any speed. You will miss the shock of your seat breaking under rocket ship acceleration. And leaving the line in a cloud of smoke after sitting there at 600 rpm idle and smoking till your tired of it will not be one of your rewards. But it will handle a modest bit better and every Rice Rocket in town will still out handle you and make you think you need viagra. And you'll spend a lot more to get what a 385 (370/429/460) gives you with a stock rebuild. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:18:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: 302 vs 460 On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > > Performance. When you are into massive overkill on a 302, you are about a > good street buildup on a 385. > > So whine and snivel and wimp out with a sissy block. You will never > experience the gut tearing rumble of a big block coming on. You will never > see the fear and terror in her eyes as you blip the throttle and break > traction in any gear at just about any speed. You will miss the shock of your > seat breaking under rocket ship acceleration. And leaving the line in a cloud > of smoke after sitting there at 600 rpm idle and smoking till your tired of it > will not be one of your rewards. > The experience of a big-block, light street vehicle should not be missed, IMO. It gives you the "reach" not possible with lesser combinations. Reccomended for all the above reasons... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:33:05 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Re: 302 vs 460 Jim Davies wrote: > On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > > > > > Performance. When you are into massive overkill on a 302, you are about a > > good street buildup on a 385. > > > > So whine and snivel and wimp out with a sissy block. You will never > > experience the gut tearing rumble of a big block coming on. You will never > > see the fear and terror in her eyes as you blip the throttle and break > > traction in any gear at just about any speed. You will miss the shock of your > > seat breaking under rocket ship acceleration. And leaving the line in a cloud > > of smoke after sitting there at 600 rpm idle and smoking till your tired of it > > will not be one of your rewards. > > > The experience of a big-block, light street vehicle should not be missed, > IMO. It gives you the "reach" not possible with lesser combinations. > Reccomended for all the above reasons... I had a 482 BBC in a 2400 lb CJ5 sand digger with a powerglide and 4wd, and won Gravelrama and the spring nationals and I'm a member of the over-the-hill gang. Most of the vehicles in my class were lighter small blocks with 4 speeds which were quicker out of the hole, and that's a problem on a 300 foot sand track. The best compliment I ever got was from a competitor who said "I heard you comming and there was nothing I could do!" 4.2 sec @xxx. Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:02:47 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Monitoring knock sensor signals? I have a Jap import (to the UK where I live)Supra Mk IV twin turbo (1994).I'd like to monitor signals from the knock sensor,to know when a retard signal or whatever it tells the ECU to do,is occurring. Feasible ? Any ideas how ? Thanks. - -- Regards, Chris Wilson http://www.f3.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:42:48 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: 302 vs 460 You will never >see the fear and terror in her eyes as you blip the throttle and break >traction in any gear at just about any speed. No truer words have been spoken! Of course "her" response may have other associated negative consequences on that same evening :) Go Big! Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:51:11 -0700 From: "Mike Pilkenton" Subject: Re: Carl Summers please Hi Carl, I remembered getting an email address change notice from someone but couldn't remember who that was. Anyway, as you can read, I'm getting close to finishing the installion portion of my conversion and will probably be ready to fire it up in a month or so. What's your schedule on working with me on this ECM project? Is it possible to meet you somewhere? Where about in the country do you live? Mike - ----------------- >Hi Mike, > I've been out of town and haven't been able to check the mail much >and it was overloaded.......I'll contact you over the weekend.........cyall >later >-Carl Summers > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:13:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Good reading (DIS) Check out http://www.motorage.com/edindex/099742.htm It explains the DIS ignition principals in good detail. Andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:35:31 -0700 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Subject: is there a basic Chevy v8 list ? I hate to bother you guys with non-efi stuff. if anyone remembers vacuum line layouts for the Rochester 2gv (2bbl for a 73 ish 350), please email me off list. this critter has 4 and I have no idea which is which, the Rochester books I just bought are useless for this. (just in...special deal on slightly new Rochester books). thanks, Ted Stowe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:30:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Ko Subject: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Does anyone know how the trigger signal for the MSD ignition boxes look like? This is thru the points wire (white). I assume it is a rising signal because points output a rising signal and also the testing procedure for the MSD is to ground and release the white wire, where the trigger is upon the release from ground. Thanks in advance, Paul Ko pko@xxx.com http://www.mindspring.com/~pko Formula SAE UCDavis Team Captain http://mae.engr.ucdavis.edu/~fsae ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:30:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Ko Subject: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Does anyone know how the trigger signal for the MSD ignition boxes look like? This is thru the points wire (white). I assume it is a rising signal because points output a rising signal and also the testing procedure for the MSD is to ground and release the white wire, where the trigger is upon the release from ground. Thanks in advance, Paul Ko pko@xxx.com http://www.mindspring.com/~pko Formula SAE UCDavis Team Captain http://mae.engr.ucdavis.edu/~fsae ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:24:41 +0100 From: Martin Easterbrook Subject: RE: Monitoring knock sensor signals? I have a unit I purchased from the UK importer of "Link" automotive electronics parts. It's called a "Knocklink" and comes in a small box with several lights on it to indicate knock severity. It T's in to the knock sensor output and doesn't affect its normal operation. I bought it from an ad in CCC about 18months ago but for one reason and another I haven't finished fitting it yet (not that it's a difficult job, I just lost interest in working on the car). I'm planning on finishing it off and fitting the "lambdalink" mixture monitor over the next couple of weeks as I've got a burst of enthusiasm again. I haven't seen ads for these parts recently, but I'll see if I can find a contact number for you somewhere. Martin mailto:martin.easterbrook@xxx.net - -----Original Message----- From: Chris Wilson [SMTP:chris@xxx.com] Sent: 10 April 1999 23:03 To: DIY_EFI Mailing List Subject: Monitoring knock sensor signals? I have a Jap import (to the UK where I live)Supra Mk IV twin turbo (1994).I'd like to monitor signals from the knock sensor,to know when a retard signal or whatever it tells the ECU to do,is occurring. Feasible ? Any ideas how ? Thanks. - -- Regards, Chris Wilson http://www.f3.u-net.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #220 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".