DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, April 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 221 In this issue: who know the website address of Mr.bruce bowling EEC-IV Modifying Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: Good reading (DIS) Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? SV: EEC-IV Modifying Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: EEC-IV Modifying EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors Re: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors Re: EEC-IV Modifying Circuit boards Re: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors Re: EEC-IV Modifying Briggs and Stratton RE: Torque measurement Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Re: Good reading (DIS) Now the BDM Conversion suggestions... Re: Conversion suggestions... Re: Conversion suggestions... Re: Conversion suggestions... Re: Circuit boards Re: Good reading (DIS) Re: Circuit boards Re: Conversion suggestions... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:09:34 +0800 From: zhu zhong hua Subject: who know the website address of Mr.bruce bowling Hi, I find that Mr Bruce Bowling write the engine control program from efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. But website information of Mr. Bruce Bowling is wrong. I can't access it. Who know the website address? zhu zhong hua ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 07:30:52 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: EEC-IV Modifying Hi all, I've recently decided that I want to switch my 1969 Mustang Twin Turbo 302 project from carb to efi. The catch is, that I want to do it as cheap as possible. This means using stock Ford EEC-IV stuff. My only problem is that I want to use Low Impedance Injectors(2.2-2.4 ohms) with an EEC that was originally designed to used High Impedance injectors (~14.50 ohms). I know that I just can't switch injectors without killing components within the EEC. I have searched through the archives and have found a little bit of information on this, but after looking at an EEC schematic I found on an FTP site, I'm a little confused. The information I read in the archives from Dan Malek stated that the Switching Transistors, Zener Diodes, and Heat sinks need to be changed. But, I didn't see any transistors used for the injectors on the schematic, maybe I'm looking at the wrong schematic? The part number on it is XSK-E7RF-3451-A1. That part number says that it's for a 1987 Ford, and by looking at the schematic it looks like it's from a Speed Density application. What do I need to switch to make this work? If anybody can help me with this I'd greatly appriciate it. Also, for those of you looking for Ford Injector Flow Ratings I have compiled a table on my site with this information. If you have anything to add, correct, or if you know where I can find more info, please let me know. The page can be found by following the the link to my site in my sig line, and clicking on the OEM fuel system components link on my front page. Thanks, Paul - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:49:57 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Ko To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, April 11, 1999 1:30 AM Subject: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? That is correct. From the sound of things, I'd try inverting a signal and see where the timing goes. Do you have a scope where you can look at things?. Is there anyway to eliminate some of the electronics?. Bruce > Does anyone know how the trigger signal for the MSD ignition boxes look > like? This is thru the points wire (white). I assume it is a rising > signal because points output a rising signal and also the testing > procedure for the MSD is to ground and release the white wire, where the > trigger is upon the release from ground. > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul Ko > pko@xxx.com > http://www.mindspring.com/~pko > > Formula SAE UCDavis Team Captain > http://mae.engr.ucdavis.edu/~fsae > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:54:33 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul S. Draper To: Sent: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:30 AM Subject: EEC-IV Modifying Before deciding on ecms, is there a T/C S/C ford application (perferably correct number of cylinders)?. Be a shame to do a bunch of work and find out the system doesn't see Boost. Does the ecm look for a barometric value?. I don't know about fords strategy on stuff is why I ask. Bruce > Hi all, > > I've recently decided that I want to switch my 1969 Mustang Twin Turbo 302 > project from carb to efi. The catch is, that I want to do it as cheap as > possible. This means using stock Ford EEC-IV stuff. My only problem is that I > want to use Low Impedance Injectors(2.2-2.4 ohms) with an EEC that was > originally designed to used High Impedance injectors (~14.50 ohms). I know > that I just can't switch injectors without killing components within the EEC. > I have searched through the archives and have found a little bit of information > on this, but after looking at an EEC schematic I found on an FTP site, I'm a > little confused. The information I read in the archives from Dan Malek stated > that the Switching Transistors, Zener Diodes, and Heat sinks need to be > changed. But, I didn't see any transistors used for the injectors on the > schematic, maybe I'm looking at the wrong schematic? The part number on it is > XSK-E7RF-3451-A1. That part number says that it's for a 1987 Ford, and by > looking at the schematic it looks like it's from a Speed Density application. > What do I need to switch to make this work? > > If anybody can help me with this I'd greatly appriciate it. Also, for those of > you looking for Ford Injector Flow Ratings I have compiled a table on my site > with this information. If you have anything to add, correct, or if you know > where I can find more info, please let me know. The page can be found by > following the the link to my site in my sig line, and clicking on the OEM fuel > system components link on my front page. > > Thanks, > > Paul > -- > Paul S. Draper > psd105@xxx.edu > 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project > http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:44:53 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying Bruce Plecan wrote: Before deciding on ecms, is there a T/C S/C ford application (perferably > correct number of cylinders)?. > Be a shame to do a bunch of work and find out the system doesn't see Boost. > Does the ecm look for a barometric value?. > I don't know about fords strategy on stuff is why I ask. > Bruce I would be using a Mass-Air Flow Meter (senses air flow into engine) and EEC. It seems to be the best choice using Ford stuff. The T/C cars used a Vane Air Flow meter (senses air-flow), which would probably be too restrictive for my application as it only flows ~380 CFM. Also the EEC is for a 2.3L 4 cyl (using Low impedance injectors). The S/C EEC's use a MAF meter also, but they are 3.8L 6 cyl. Ford did/does use a Speed Density (senses Manifold Pressure) EEC for v8's, but it doesn't respond well to camshaft changes or any MAP value higher the Atmospheric (ie Boost). So, I figure the best way for me to go is to used Ford's MAF EEC-IV and Meter, and change what's necessary to allow me to use low impedance injectors. One idea is to pull the necessary pieces from an EEC that uses low impedance injectors, and transplant them into the EEC that I will use. I'm just looking for suggestions and some insight from people on the list who might have already done this, or know what needs to be done. Thanks, Paul - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:35:54 -0700 From: "Fran and Bud" Subject: Re: Good reading (DIS) Good reference!! Searched for more and got hits for Parts II and III but could not access the URL. Can you access them for additional post? - ---------- >From: Squash >To: diy efi >Subject: Good reading (DIS) >Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999, 8:13 PM > >Check out http://www.motorage.com/edindex/099742.htm > >It explains the DIS ignition principals in good >detail. > >Andy > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @xxx.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying Why can't we just add a resistor in series to a low impedance injector and make it a high impedance injector? I'm missing something here, aren't I? jw ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:14:36 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying James Weiler wrote: > Why can't we just add a resistor in series to a low impedance injector > and make it a high impedance injector? > > I'm missing something here, aren't I? > jw I wish it were that easy!!! :-) Unfortunetly, it's not. Paul - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:14:09 -0400 From: "Ord Millar" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying I know a lot of guys running EEC-IV's with boosted 302 applications, and NONE of them read boost pressure into the EEC, they either use fuel management units to increase fuel rail pressure with boost (usually 6:1 or 8:1), or else they program assuming boost vs. RPM is a table of constants. These methods seem to work OK. You could also look into the APE Speed-Brain, which connects to the standard 302-EEC IV wiring harness, but is allegedly easier to program. There is the 7.3L Turbo Diesel truck engine, I believe they used EEC-IV prior to 1995. I don't know how much help a diesel calibratipon starting point will be, however. BTW, a company called alternative auto will modify EEC-IVs for low impedance injectors, and their price seemed reasonable, so it can't be too difficult. - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 10:41 AM Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Paul S. Draper >To: >Sent: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:30 AM >Subject: EEC-IV Modifying > >Before deciding on ecms, is there a T/C S/C ford application (perferably >correct number of cylinders)?. >Be a shame to do a bunch of work and find out the system doesn't see Boost. >Does the ecm look for a barometric value?. >I don't know about fords strategy on stuff is why I ask. >Bruce > > >> Hi all, >> >> I've recently decided that I want to switch my 1969 Mustang Twin Turbo 302 >> project from carb to efi. The catch is, that I want to do it as cheap as >> possible. This means using stock Ford EEC-IV stuff. My only problem is >that I >> want to use Low Impedance Injectors(2.2-2.4 ohms) with an EEC that was >> originally designed to used High Impedance injectors (~14.50 ohms). I >know >> that I just can't switch injectors without killing components within the >EEC. >> I have searched through the archives and have found a little bit of >information >> on this, but after looking at an EEC schematic I found on an FTP site, I'm >a >> little confused. The information I read in the archives from Dan Malek >stated >> that the Switching Transistors, Zener Diodes, and Heat sinks need to be >> changed. But, I didn't see any transistors used for the injectors on the >> schematic, maybe I'm looking at the wrong schematic? The part number on >it is >> XSK-E7RF-3451-A1. That part number says that it's for a 1987 Ford, and by >> looking at the schematic it looks like it's from a Speed Density >application. >> What do I need to switch to make this work? >> >> If anybody can help me with this I'd greatly appriciate it. Also, for >those of >> you looking for Ford Injector Flow Ratings I have compiled a table on my >site >> with this information. If you have anything to add, correct, or if you >know >> where I can find more info, please let me know. The page can be found by >> following the the link to my site in my sig line, and clicking on the OEM >fuel >> system components link on my front page. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Paul >> -- >> Paul S. Draper >> psd105@xxx.edu >> 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project >> http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 >> >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:11:08 -0400 From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? sounds like points, then. Points trigger on a falling current (points opening after being closed), so the MSD test would be right. (I know, it sounds backwards, but it works--a collapsing magnetic field will generate a *much* higher voltage) At 10:30 PM 4/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone know how the trigger signal for the MSD ignition boxes look >like? This is thru the points wire (white). I assume it is a rising >signal because points output a rising signal and also the testing >procedure for the MSD is to ground and release the white wire, where the >trigger is upon the release from ground. > >Thanks in advance, > >Paul Ko >pko@xxx.com >http://www.mindspring.com/~pko > >Formula SAE UCDavis Team Captain >http://mae.engr.ucdavis.edu/~fsae > > > > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:26:20 +0200 From: "Anders Grop" Subject: SV: EEC-IV Modifying Hi! I know that you can buy ballast resistors (4-5ohm) from Link engine management for this purpose. How many volts are normally used with low impedance injectors(lii)? I have heard that for lii they use a high current initially to get a fast opening and then the current is lowered during the "hold" period. This is done to get a little bit more accuracy in fuel delivery compared to what you get with high imp.inj. Paul, please explain why you don´t want to use ballast resistors? Regards, Anders - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: Paul S. Draper Till: James Weiler Kopia: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Datum: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:33 PM Ämne: Re: EEC-IV Modifying >James Weiler wrote: > >> Why can't we just add a resistor in series to a low impedance injector >> and make it a high impedance injector? >> >> I'm missing something here, aren't I? >> jw > >I wish it were that easy!!! :-) Unfortunetly, it's not. > >Paul >-- >Paul S. Draper >psd105@xxx.edu >1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project >http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:36:28 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying At 10:06 AM 4/11/99 -0700, you wrote: >Why can't we just add a resistor in series to a low impedance injector >and make it a high impedance injector? > >I'm missing something here, aren't I? Yep.. That will change the overall DC resistance, but the injector will now see a reduced voltage and will be slower to open. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:35:20 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying At 11:44 AM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >I would be using a Mass-Air Flow Meter (senses air flow into engine) and EEC. >It seems to be the best choice using Ford stuff. The T/C cars used a Vane Air >Flow meter (senses air-flow), which would probably be too restrictive for my >application as it only flows ~380 CFM. Also the EEC is for a 2.3L 4 cyl (using >Low impedance injectors). The S/C EEC's use a MAF meter also, but they are >3.8L >6 cyl. Ford did/does use a Speed Density (senses Manifold Pressure) EEC for >v8's, but it doesn't respond well to camshaft changes or any MAP value higher >the Atmospheric (ie Boost). Paul, Your best bet to place this question would probably be to ther EEC mailing list... They have disassembled the EEC's and know them inside and out, are writing their own "chips", have a cheap device to go on the J3 connector and "suck" the rom out of the EEC for modification etc... They can be subscribed to at: eec-subscribe@xxx.net =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:39:55 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying Ord Millar wrote: > I know a lot of guys running EEC-IV's with boosted 302 applications, and > NONE of them read boost pressure into the EEC, they either use fuel > management units to increase fuel rail pressure with boost (usually 6:1 or > 8:1), or else they program assuming boost vs. RPM is a table of constants. > These methods seem to work OK. If you use the right size injectors, there is no reason to use a FMU. With the right size injectors, fuel pressure can be brought up by having the pressure regulator referenced to manifold pressure. > You could also look into the APE Speed-Brain, which connects to the standard > 302-EEC IV wiring harness, but is allegedly easier to program. I know someone who tried to order one of these, never recieved it, and they were beating about the bush about why they hadn't sent it after 6 weeks...Plus I don't have alot of money to dump into anything fancy, I just want to be able to run Low Impedance Injectors on a Mass Air EEC-IV. > There is the 7.3L Turbo Diesel truck engine, I believe they used EEC-IV > prior to 1995. I don't know how much help a diesel calibratipon starting > point will be, however. Prolly not much. The difference in injection style, and the fact the the engine doesn't run much over 3000 rpm...that'll prolly be the BIG problem. My engine in Naturally aspirated config pulls all the way to 6000, with a carb. > BTW, a company called alternative auto will modify EEC-IVs for low impedance > injectors, and their price seemed reasonable, so it can't be too difficult. No, it can't be difficult, that's why I want to do it myself. :-) The other problem is I don't fell like paying ~$200 and waiting 4-6 weeks for them to mod it. The other option I've seen is to buy a box that plugs in-line between the injectors and EEC that allows you to use Low Impedance Injectors. But it costs ~$200 too. The whole basis for my project is to do it as cheaply as possible. Most of the parts I'm using are stock Ford parts, that were modified by me for this project. The turbos are even off of Ford production cars, pruchased for $25 ea in perfect working order!! Paul (btw. I updated my Ford Fuel Injector page this morning, I added more injectors, P/N's, resistances, and re-organized it.) - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:00:47 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors Hi all, I've recently decided that I want to switch my 1969 Mustang Twin Turbo 302 project from carb to efi. The catch is, that I want to do it as cheap as possible. This means using stock Ford EEC-IV stuff. My only problem is that I want to use Low Impedance Injectors(2.2-2.4 ohms) with an EEC that was originally designed to used High Impedance injectors (~16.20 ohms). I know that I just can't switch injectors without killing components within the EEC. I have searched through the dyiefi archives and have found a little bit of information on this, but after looking at an EEC schematic I found on an FTP site, I'm a little confused. The information I read in the archives from Dan Malek stated that the Switching Transistors, Zener Diodes, and Heat sinks need to be changed. But, I didn't see any transistors used for the injectors on the schematic, maybe I'm looking at the wrong schematic? The part number on it is XSK-E7RF-3451-A1. That part number says that it's for a 1987 Ford, and by looking at the schematic it looks like it's from a Speed Density application. What do I need to switch to make this work? If anybody can help me with this I'd greatly appreciate it. Also, for those of you looking for Ford Injector Flow Ratings I have compiled a table on my site with this information. If you have anything to add, correct, or if you know where I can find more info, please let me know. The page can be found by following the the link to my site in my sig line, and clicking on the OEM fuel system components link on my front page. Thanks, Paul - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:17:33 -0400 From: "Frederic Breitwieser" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors Yes Paul, most OEM ECMs designed for high impedance injectors will fry their output stages if lower impedance injectors are used... sorta the same concept as putting a 2ohm speaker on a 8 ohm stereo - have your fire extinguisher ready :) However all is not lost... I've opened two EEC's and it appears the injector drivers are nothing more than transistors... therefore these could be changed to higher current capable devices, or, its entirely acceptable to create your own cascaded output stage. I did this with a GM ECM for the same reason... Its nothing more than an inductor in parallel with the ECM output and ground, which then feeds a 1k resistor driving a large MOSFET which connects to 12V Battery, the low-impedance injector, which in turn connects to ground. This worked very well for non-peak/hold style injectors. The ECM I used was the GM 1418 Grand National ECM (Buick V6 Turbo) Hope that helped ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:19:28 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying Paul S. Draper wrote: > So, I figure the best way for me to go is to used Ford's MAF EEC-IV and Meter, > and change what's necessary to allow me to use low impedance injectors. One > idea is to pull the necessary pieces from an EEC that uses low impedance > injectors, and transplant them into the EEC that I will use. I'm just looking > for suggestions and some insight from people on the list who might have already > done this, or know what needs to be done. There is a Ford site on the web somewhere that will do the conversion for you. I don't have the URL but a search should find it. You could drive the injectors with 2 EFI332 boards between the EEC-iv and the injectors. Sharpe You could do the conversion yourself with help from an EE or two. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:54:57 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Circuit boards I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? How about the glue? Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:53:24 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > Yes Paul, most OEM ECMs designed for high impedance injectors will fry their > output stages if lower impedance injectors are used... sorta the same > concept as putting a 2ohm speaker on a 8 ohm stereo - have your fire > extinguisher ready :) That's what I don't want to happen. :-) But I do have a Fire Extinguisher in my car just in case! > However all is not lost... I've opened two EEC's and it appears the injector > drivers are nothing more than transistors... That's what I've read. > therefore these could be > changed to higher current capable devices, I was thinking of making a Junk Yard trip and picking up one of each EEC, one that I want to use, and one that was designed to run Low Impedance injectors. Then either getting new transistors to match the low z eec, and installing them in the other EEC, or just swaping them. > Its nothing more than an inductor in parallel with the ECM output and > ground, which then feeds a 1k resistor driving a large MOSFET which connects > to 12V Battery, the low-impedance injector, which in turn connects to > ground. > > Hope that helped Yup, it did. Though I really should stop looking at this EEC Schematic I found...cause it has Battery Voltage,12v, going through a 390 ohm resistor in series and a .01uF cap in parallel, then into a 5 pin IC, out of the IC to a 3.6v? 5W diode in parallel, and a 1000pF cap in parallel, then to the injector then to ground. The 5 pin IC is what is confusing, or is this the MOSFET? I'm not an EE...just a ME with just enough electronics knowledge to get myself in trouble... :-) Thanks! Paul - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:06:13 -0400 From: "Paul S. Draper" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying > There is a Ford site on the web somewhere that will do the conversion for you. I > don't have the URL but a search should find it. I know who they are, just don't want to pay them to do it. :-) > You could drive the injectors with 2 > EFI332 boards between the EEC-iv and the injectors. Sharpe What's an EFI332 Board? > You could do the conversion yourself with help from an EE or two. Hey, I know a couple of those EE guys! :-) Paul - -- Paul S. Draper psd105@xxx.edu 1969 Mustang 302 Twin Turbo Project http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/9893 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:05:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Christopher M Ortega Subject: Briggs and Stratton To whom it may concern, I am looking to replace a regular carbueration system on a briggs and stratton 5 HP engine with a single port fuel injection system. I was wondering if anybody had any suggestions for feedback control, LED display of RPM's, or the amplifier needed from the spark. Please respond ASAP!! Christopher Ortega ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:41:16 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: Torque measurement >A dyno works the same way. The rotor of the dyno is coupled to the engine >under test. The dyno case is supported by trunion bearings. water is >circulated between the rotor and case. The rotor tries to turn the case, and >a load cell on the case reads out torque. In an engine, the crank is the >rotor and the block is the case, a load cell on the block would read out >torque just like a dyno does. If you want to measure off of the drive shaft >an in line load cell would be needed. The cost of an in line is over $3K a >tension compression load cell is around $500. > Don I did NOT want to read off the driveshaft--I simply suggested CALIBRATING off of it! The torque reaction at the motor mounts is most definitely the torque reaction of the engine/transmission ASSEMBLY, the reaction to the output torque in the driveshaft, and therefore will vary with what gear the tranny is in as well as with the engine's output torque. Regards, Greg > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bearbvd@xxx.net] >> Sent: Friday, April 09, 1999 9:07 AM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: Torque measurement >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Greg Hermann >> >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >> >Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 10:30 PM >> >Subject: RE: Torque measurement >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>Well--you would be measuring the torque output of the TRANSMISSION, not >> the >> >>engine--so you would need to calibrate the thing a fair amount higher >> for >> >>the low gears. Look at the engine-tranny package as a black box to >> >>visualize why this is so. And calibrating with a bar stuck through the >> >>output yoke, with the tranny in gear, might be a lot easier approach. >> >> >> >>Greg >> > >> > >> >Hmmmm(n). I uderstand what you are saying, but if the transmission is in >> >neutral, and I open the throttle, the engine rotates oposite to the crank >> >direction. There is no output from the transmission... Is this just the >> >energy that is being stored in the flywheel causing this oposite >> reaction, >> >or am I more lost than I think? >> > >> >Ord >> >> Yep--in the situation you describe, it is the reaction to the rotational >> inertia of the ratating assembly that makes the engine rock. >> >> Greg >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:40:27 -0300 From: "Pedro Haynes" Subject: Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Greetings all!!! I have my computer board all soldered now for the 5 chip BDM. I was searching for it on the site but I cannot seem to find it, What is the name of the 5 chip bdm. In addition I like to know how my circuits work, why is there a serial jack on the Computer board? Is it for down loading the program? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:38:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Good reading (DIS) http://www.motorage.com/edindex/129720.htm This is part II And this is part III: http://204.243.31.38/cgi-win/csearch.exe/index.htm/4855771.000/3.qf/ma?&A=2&D0=0&Dv=0&Dg=332914&Df=17&Qv=0&K1=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2emotorage%2ecom%2fedindex%2f029826%2eHTM Don't mis-type it! Andy p.s. i was able to connect 2 it. - --- Fran and Bud wrote: > Good reference!! > Searched for more and got hits for Parts II and III > but could not access the > URL. > Can you access them for additional post? > ---------- > >From: Squash > >To: diy efi > >Subject: Good reading (DIS) > >Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999, 8:13 PM > > > > >Check out > http://www.motorage.com/edindex/099742.htm > > > >It explains the DIS ignition principals in good > >detail. > > > >Andy > > > >_________________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get your free @xxx.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:42:24 -0300 From: "Pedro Haynes" Subject: Now the BDM >Greetings all!!! >I have my computer board all soldered now for the 5 chip BDM. I was >searching for it on the site but I cannot seem to find it, What is the name >of the 5 chip bdm. In addition I like to know how my circuits work, why is >there a serial jack on the Computer board? Is it for down loading the >program? > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:46:31 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Conversion suggestions... Hello all, My brother has an interesting (?) project... He has a 1980 Dodge Van with a 225 slant 6. It has a Holley 1bbl carb and runs like crap. He wants to go with EFI, but doesn't want to go Port fuel injection unless there was a manifold/fuel rail made for this engine from the factory (afraid to try and cut it up!). I don't think there was, so he's going TBI. Curious what GM factory TBI setup would work for him and be close out of the box... did any of the GM trucks come with an inline 6 and TBI? Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:51:51 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Conversion suggestions... Think I answered part of my own question... Looking through the OTC PROM ID supplement (thru 91) it shows a 4.1L 6 in 1984 (Vin D). Used a 1226021 ECM, but no idea if it was TBI or carb'd... Also shows 4 cal's for it... AKB8233, AKC8238, AKD8246 and AMO8252 If anyone has any more info, It would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Dave At 06:46 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, >My brother has an interesting (?) project... >He has a 1980 Dodge Van with a 225 slant 6. It has a Holley 1bbl carb and >runs like crap. >He wants to go with EFI, but doesn't want to go Port fuel injection unless >there was a manifold/fuel rail made for this engine from the factory >(afraid to try and cut it up!). I don't think there was, so he's going TBI. >Curious what GM factory TBI setup would work for him and be close out of >the box... did any of the GM trucks come with an inline 6 and TBI? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:27:09 -0700 From: "soren" Subject: Re: Conversion suggestions... >My brother has an interesting (?) project... >He has a 1980 Dodge Van with a 225 slant 6. It has a Holley 1bbl carb and >runs like crap. >He wants to go with EFI, but doesn't want to go Port fuel injection unless >>Curious what GM factory TBI setup would work for him and be close out of >the box... did any of the GM trucks come with an inline 6 and TBI? >Thanks, >Dave Howell sells a system for a 258 Jeep I-6 that uses an ECM and throttle body from GM 4.3L V-6/5.0 L V-8 trucks. I can't think of too many reasons you couldn't get a similar foundation to work on the Dodge slant 6 with a little work. Soren Rounds ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:08:38 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Conversion suggestions... Sorry, all carb'ed w/ California emissions. Any time I see a prom or ecm listing for any GM truck that's pre 1986, I suspect carb + CA. But I don't mind looking up cal id's, just in case. Shannen David A. Cooley wrote: > > Think I answered part of my own question... > Looking through the OTC PROM ID supplement (thru 91) it shows a 4.1L 6 in > 1984 (Vin D). > Used a 1226021 ECM, but no idea if it was TBI or carb'd... > Also shows 4 cal's for it... > AKB8233, AKC8238, AKD8246 and AMO8252 > > If anyone has any more info, It would be greatly appreciated! > Thanks, > Dave > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:25:32 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Subject: Re: Circuit boards Tom, I socketed the flash chips on my 95 Camaro LT1 PCM. It had a clear waterproofing all over the board. This seemed to also be under the chips. I built a copper foil damn around the Flash chips, then used a heat gun to remove the surface mount Flash chips, The heat from the heat gun melted the solder and softened all the goo up so I could pull off the chips. I then cleaned up the area with repeated cleaning with alcohol. Alcohol did not really disolve it , but with scrubbing it cleaned the board up enough to allow me to solder on the sockets. Ken Tom Sharpe wrote: > > I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The > CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is > also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. > > Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? > > How about the glue? > > Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:02:37 -0700 From: "Fran and Bud" Subject: Re: Good reading (DIS) Got it! Thanks. Bud - ---------- >From: Squash >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: Good reading (DIS) >Date: Sun, Apr 11, 1999, 3:38 PM > >http://www.motorage.com/edindex/129720.htm This is >part II > >And this is part III: > >http://204.243.31.38/cgi-win/csearch.exe/index.htm/4855771.000/3.qf/ma?&A=2 &D0=0&Dv=0 >&Dg=332914&Df=17&Qv=0&K1=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2emotorage%2ecom%2fedindex%2f029826%2eHTM > >Don't mis-type it! > >Andy >p.s. i was able to connect 2 it. > > > >--- Fran and Bud wrote: >> Good reference!! >> Searched for more and got hits for Parts II and III >> but could not access the >> URL. >> Can you access them for additional post? >> ---------- >> >From: Squash >> >To: diy efi >> >Subject: Good reading (DIS) >> >Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999, 8:13 PM >> > >> >> >Check out >> http://www.motorage.com/edindex/099742.htm >> > >> >It explains the DIS ignition principals in good >> >detail. >> > >> >Andy >> > >> >>_________________________________________________________ >> >Do You Yahoo!? >> >Get your free @xxx.com address at >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > >> > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @xxx.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:07:28 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Circuit boards Tom, I think you may have answered this before, but now that you have socketed these chips, can you remove them for programming, just like eproms? Thx, Mike V > I socketed the flash chips on my 95 Camaro LT1 PCM. It had a clear > waterproofing all over the board. This seemed to also be under the chips. I > built a copper foil damn around the Flash chips, then used a heat gun to > remove > the surface mount Flash chips, The heat from the heat gun melted the solder > and > softened all the goo up so I could pull off the chips. I then cleaned up the > area with repeated cleaning with alcohol. Alcohol did not really disolve it , > > but with scrubbing it cleaned the board up enough to allow me to solder on > the > sockets. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:58:06 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Conversion suggestions... At 08:08 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >Sorry, all carb'ed w/ California emissions. Any time I see a prom or >ecm listing for any GM truck that's pre 1986, I suspect carb + CA. >But I don't mind looking up cal id's, just in case. >Shannen Hmm... How about the 1989 Chevy R20 pickup with the 4.8L L6? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #221 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".