DIY_EFI Digest Monday, April 12 1999 Volume 04 : Number 223 In this issue: GM 3.4 DOHC injector flow rates sequential gearboxes Re: EEC-IV Modifying Re: Circuit boards Re: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors RE: sequential gearboxes Re: sequential gearboxes Re: 302 vs 460 Eletronic throttle control Re: GM 3.4 DOHC injector flow rates Re: Circuit boards Re: Circuit boards Re: Circuit boards Re: Another Question about the Northstar Motronic error states / limp home mode Re: Circuit boards RE: sequential gearboxes RE: Circuit boards Ford Serial data Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? Injector listing Re: Another Question about the Northstar high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? Re: Injector listing Re: Injector listing Re: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? Re: Torque measurement RE: Circuit boards RE: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? Re: Motronic error states / limp home mode Re: Another Question about the Northstar See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:43:15 -0800 From: Ludis Langens Subject: GM 3.4 DOHC injector flow rates Does anyone know the flow rates for these two injector part numbers? They are both for the 3.4L DOHC engine (vin "X") used in the GM W-bodies. 1995: 17090844, green & yellow 1996: 17121882, green - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:14:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: sequential gearboxes Hi there I know this is not fuel injection but thought maybe someone would have some info. How does a sequential gearbox change work and could it be possible to convert a gated box ie H pattern to a sequential change. Thanks Roy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 07:47:25 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying What about using 2 2.3L EEC systems? Gary Derian > > > correct number of cylinders)?. > > Be a shame to do a bunch of work and find out the system doesn't see Boost. > > Does the ecm look for a barometric value?. > > I don't know about fords strategy on stuff is why I ask. > > Bruce > > I would be using a Mass-Air Flow Meter (senses air flow into engine) and EEC. > It seems to be the best choice using Ford stuff. The T/C cars used a Vane Air > Flow meter (senses air-flow), which would probably be too restrictive for my > application as it only flows ~380 CFM. Also the EEC is for a 2.3L 4 cyl (using > Low impedance injectors). The S/C EEC's use a MAF meter also, but they are 3.8L ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 06:53:52 -0500 From: Steve Gorkowski Subject: Re: Circuit boards I listed a address for a company called Dynaloy I use depot compound but they may have just the made to remove that stuff. Steve Tom Sharpe wrote: > I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The > CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is > also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. > > Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? > > How about the glue? > > Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:28:25 -0400 From: "Frederic Breitwieser" Subject: Re: EEC-IV Modifying for low impedance injectors >Ummmmmm, could that be put into a schematic, I am having a little difficulty >picturing this.... Yeah John, I'll add this to my "honeydo" list. Let me get my taxes done first :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:39:15 +0100 From: "g8stw" Subject: RE: sequential gearboxes I have done some preliminary work on this, there are two possible ways, a) using Hydraulics and b) using pneumatics. Pneumatics being cheaper and possibly faster you also need a micro-controller and some position sensors. If you want to discuss this further you can email direct if you wish. John john@xxx.uk > > I know this is not fuel injection but thought maybe > someone would have some info. > > How does a sequential gearbox change work and could it > be possible to convert a gated box ie H pattern to a > sequential change. > > Thanks Roy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:41:18 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: sequential gearboxes Yes, its possible. The Ferrari F1 style gearchange for the F355 and now the F360 use conventional gearboxes with a hydraulic mechanism operating the shift rail, clutch, and drive by wire (EFI content). The Ferrari system is pretty comprehensive with safety overrides and a fully automatic mode. What are you trying to do? Is this for race or road use? Or, do you mean to make a big motorcycle type gearbox? Gary Derian > Hi there > > I know this is not fuel injection but thought maybe > someone would have some info. > > How does a sequential gearbox change work and could it > be possible to convert a gated box ie H pattern to a > sequential change. > > Thanks Roy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:01:21 -0400 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: 302 vs 460 On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:54:52 GMT > From: Robert Harris > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: 302 vs 460 > > What type vehicle are you using? With less than the weight of a fat lady > separating the two and much of that compensatible by moving the battery to the > trunk, aluminum intake and headers - contrary to popular opinion it aint gonna > matter much. probly a cobra kit car, I was a mechanic and did quite a few build up ( Jap. cars) but now I want one for me 8-) > > Size - it's not that much bigger - go measure one. hmm > > Build the torquiest 302/351 you want. Then build a 460, put a radical cam > and intake on it optimized for mid upper range. The residual torque left > over will still exceed that of the 320/351 and when it comes on the cam - it > be all over - you can't put enough positive pressure on a 302 to catch a wound > up 385. good point > > A bore and offset crank can take you over 500 cubic inches. > > So whine and snivel and wimp out with a sissy block. You will never > experience the gut tearing rumble of a big block coming on. You will never > see the fear and terror in her eyes as you blip the throttle and break > traction in any gear at just about any speed. You will miss the shock of your > seat breaking under rocket ship acceleration. And leaving the line in a cloud > of smoke after sitting there at 600 rpm idle and smoking till your tired of it > will not be one of your rewards. the first car I really drove alot was a 460 PI station wagon, the gas station was the only thing it didn't pass > > But it will handle a modest bit better and every Rice Rocket in town will > still out handle you and make you think you need viagra. And you'll spend a > lot more to get what a 385 (370/429/460) gives you with a stock rebuild. good point > > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" > 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" > 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant > 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" > > Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:08:58 +0200 From: Armand Jordaan Subject: Eletronic throttle control I have a non-GM question to ask... I have an Electro-mechanically controlled ("ETC" or "drive-by-wire") throttle body (Mannesman VDO part no X22 143 670). Apparently it is used on the new VW Golf A4. I can't find any idle air bypass on this throttle body, and wondered if anybody knows if the idle air is controlled by the electric motor only or is a supplemental idle actuator needed to control the idle air opening? Armand Jordaan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:16:58 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: GM 3.4 DOHC injector flow rates I was told that *ALL* DOHC 3.4's used 30 Lb/hr injectors. - -----Original Message----- From: Ludis Langens To: Diy_efi Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 6:04 AM Subject: GM 3.4 DOHC injector flow rates >Does anyone know the flow rates for these two injector part numbers? >They are both for the 3.4L DOHC engine (vin "X") used in the GM W-bodies. > > 1995: 17090844, green & yellow > > 1996: 17121882, green > >-- >Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com >Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:22:24 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Subject: Re: Circuit boards Mike, I'm Ken not Tom, but yes I read the original chips with My Eprom reader, I actually copied them to new Flash chips and plugged them into the Board. The original chip images were disassembled for our project. I have built an editor for the fuel and ignition tables. I keep adding to it as we learn more. Dave has a scanner running for the 94-95 LT1 PCM, and is working on a Flash download routine. If you are working with the 94-95 LT1 PCM drop me a line. Ken ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > Tom, > I think you may have answered this before, but now that you have > socketed these chips, can you remove them for programming, > just like eproms? > Thx, Mike V > > > I socketed the flash chips on my 95 Camaro LT1 PCM. It had a clear > > waterproofing all over the board. This seemed to also be under the chips. I > > built a copper foil damn around the Flash chips, then used a heat gun to > > remove > > the surface mount Flash chips, The heat from the heat gun melted the > solder > > and > > softened all the goo up so I could pull off the chips. I then cleaned up > the > > area with repeated cleaning with alcohol. Alcohol did not really disolve > it , > > > > but with scrubbing it cleaned the board up enough to allow me to solder on > > the > > sockets. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:25:58 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Subject: Re: Circuit boards Eric, The 93 PCM is a whole different beast. It uses Eprom, not Flash and is a batch fire, not sequential EFI. I'm not sure about construction techniques on it. Ken eclark@xxx.com wrote: > > On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Ken Kelly wrote: > > > Tom, > > I socketed the flash chips on my 95 Camaro LT1 PCM. It had a clear > > waterproofing all over the board. This seemed to also be under the chips. I > > I never saw any of this on my 93 Firebird LT1 ECM, but I did notice it on > the board inside the VATS box when I pulled that out. > > -Eric > 93 Firebird Formula (parting out) > 66 Chevy Impala (soon to have a 93 LT1) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:33:49 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Subject: Re: Circuit boards Tom, When I heated my Flash chips to the point of melting the solder, they still had something holding them to the board, but it was soft enough that when I grabbed the chip with some tweezers I could rock it back and forth. The chip came of after a few seconds of twisting. I assumed it was just the potting compound under the chip. If it was glue, the heat softened it. NOTE: I was using a commercial heat gun, not a hair drier. Ken Marc Piccioni wrote: > > Tom > > Usually mass production PCB assembly techniques, under each part is a drop > of "crazy glue" like adhesive to hold the bit in place during wavesoldeing. > If you have a PCB that you don't care about try acetone to dissolve the > potting compound. Usually after the pins are desoldered, a careful > application of force will crack the adhesive loose. > > /Marc > > ---------- > From: Tom Sharpe[SMTP:twsharpe@xxx.com] > Sent: April 11, 1999 1:54 PM > To: efi332@xxx.edu > Subject: Circuit boards > > I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The > CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is > also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. > > Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? > > How about the glue? > > Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe > > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > M>)\^(AH#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` > M`@````(``@`!!) &`& !```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ > M`0```&$`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S > M,BYE;F M;VAI;RUS=&%T92YE9'4`````'@`", $````%````4TU44 `````>``,P`0`` > M`"(```!D:7E?969I0&5F:3,S,BYE;F M`0````,`_@\&````'@`!, $````D````)V1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO > M:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=2<``@$+, $````G````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$5&23,S > M,BY%3D M``0````````#GD@!"( '`!@```!)4$TN36EC M" $$@xxx.B!#:7)C=6ET(&)O87)D M`!4`!P`M````+@$!(( #``X```#/!P0`"P`5``,`( ```!T!`0F `0`A```` > M1# P-C@xxx.4,T-#0U-3,U-# P,# `V 8!`Y &`!@%```2 > M````"P`C```````#`"8```````L`*0```````P`V``````! `#D`H+YCHY&$ > MO@$>`' ``0```!,```!213H@0VER8W5I="!B;V%R9',```(!<0`!````%@`` > M``&^A)&C8S^$!M'P41'2OIQ$15-4`````!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% ````` > M'@`?# $````8````;7!I8V-I;VYI0&%T=&-A;F%D82YN970``P`&$%T]0F\# > M``<0N@(``!X`"! !````90```%1/355354%,3%E-05-34%)/1%5#5$E/3E!# > M0D%34T5-0DQ95$5#2$Y)455%4RQ53D1%4D5!0TA005)425-!1%)/4$]&(D-2 > M05I91TQ512),24M%041(15-)5D543TA/3$142$4``````@$)$ $```"=`P`` > MF0,``$(&``!,6D9U91M#$/\`"@$/`A4"J 7K`H,`4 +R"0(`8V@*P'-E=#(W > M!@`&PP*#,@/%`@!P)S=&5M`H,SMP+D!Q,"@S02S!3%?0J BPC/"=D[ > M%Y\R-34"@ <*@0VQ"V!N9S$P,R\44 L*%%$+\F,`0"!41P-P"H4*A55S=0= > M;#QY( # !!$34 1P=6,$=&D"("!00T(@?QXA$^ "8!WP$] 1< ,`<4$*4',L > M('5N!($@^F4`T&@>4 K !4 $`!] !"!D`V!P(&]F(%(B!0!A>AWP9PI!(B @ > M;&EK91] 9&@xxx.P(&)I(8%[`Z +46,C MH"!4=V$C\',D864EX2[T($DB4'D(8"1 )C$AP5L?$B2@805 )S)D`B G705 > M8PK (W$&X'4%0'2N<&\"/R)+%P;P) )>(%H-YM*X @ > MH2;@'99A`8 @T?\K0PN (;$I,0VP)F,7H2" DR'0*1)F=0,@87 +4-YI*1 > > MPR)!`A!R)8$#\.<=T"D`(I!C:R23(Y<7,$IO$; N'+PO30K 8T< M.# "T6GP+3$T- WP#- U\PM9O#$V"J #8!_A!4 M.!>O"H M.1X?-Y8,@xxx.G1W M,#K_/ M!$U#)`Q$Q,2" ,3E#P$-@xxx. M0$ATIBX)\";0;V@xxx.RJA>5\?2'%(WTGG1'] #G5B:J MT4:?/ M#:3# =23QFP;@"Q%S-!\U(S,V-I?;&]4WEDDG9@6@=0M0(W"!(D%% > M14-?25919?LH%%3083SP*<$EXBJ$'U6/,L <<".P"H5#4%4?0,,@L ?P3TT@ > M(!&P$^"])!)B(W BXB2 *+!W`Z#_)*$#H"9@+J,E$20A)5-8T_\I,00`"H4' > M0"9@(<$CL"8P^GD@@&-5H K!!: P$27Q/B@F("U!'F$B0"7A/RGO(C C\"#A > M82%Y)* FLAR\/$1O!Y$`<" M42G ;U>D)+)1@OH_'+Q(8]$I922Q(N)G/1M8\ !P:P0@)2%!9';_`' E@5I > M/-@6"H46P0!Q$ ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! > M```#T``0````4```!213H@`````'M[ > ` > end ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:32:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Another Question about the Northstar On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Chris Moore wrote: > Hi everyone, > I think you all know the problem I was having. But for those who > don't, My wheels will not peel out. I have a power problem in the > low end. Again I think it has to do with the Torque Management > system on the 4.6 Northstar. I was looking into just making a pulse > generator to produce a wheel speed signal and run it into the brake > module. But I was thinking. The Northstar has two wires that run > into the PCM from the EBTCM(Electronic Brake Traction Control Module) > that have to do with the controling of the Torque Management. The > first wire is Delivered Torque and the second wire is Desired Torque > Output. These are the wires that let the PCM know how many injectors > to shut down and how much timing to retard. It is read by a scanner > by percentage.0% to 100%. Now, common sense tells me that one of the > wires are a power wire and one is a ground or a return. Is there any > way that I could run the correct voltage to the PCM that will say > that there is 0% of Torque Management and that would do away with the > EBTCM all together. With that being done, that would save me all the > hassles of trying to fool the EBTCM. There are other variables to > that we would have to try to fool like the RPM, VSS, Throttle > position. If we could just figure out how much voltage to send than > we could just get rid of the EBTCM and all the other variables would > not matter. I hope someone can help me. Thanks everyone for the > help. > > Chris Moore Probably the best way to figure out what needs to be input is to find a helm manual for the car you got the engine from. The mhelm I have for my car hass quite a bit of detail on the wiring and what sort of signals and ranges are supposed to be on those wires. If the wires are "delivered torque" and "desired torque" then making sure the "desired torque" is a higher value than the "delivered torque" would probably make everything work correctly. And assuming (dangerous) that the input signals are both 5V, rig a voltage divider and give the "desired torque" a bit higher value than the delievered torque, and the computer should no longer back things off. The sure way to know though would be to find/borrow a copy of the helm for that car and study the section on the traction control system. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:47:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph Vella" Subject: Motronic error states / limp home mode does anyone know a simple way to prevent the ecu from going into limp home without re-programming the eproms, maybe from the diagnostic port ? it is a '93 Audi S4 motronic, and I believe I'm getting the Manifold pressure sensor failure mode ( due to it not agreeing with the air mass sensor, due to running 23 PSI of boost ) making it enter limp home after about 10 seconds on boost. How long does the ECU take to recover from a power interruption (reset) thought two was that I would reset the ECU at 5 second intervals when the boost exceeded 15 PSI ( say .02 sec pulse of the supply voltage ) ? Thought 3 - which registers are responsible, I can cut a new EPROM if I have to, but I'd rather not if it isn't necessary. If someone has mapped one of these to 23PSI I wouldn't mind having the code ? Thanks! Joseph Vella joevella!!!@xxx.com ( remove !!! to reply, if present ) A Software Company International Inc. RR1 Palgrave On. Canada L0N 1P0 Large Database Developers In Delphi / DB2 / Java / WEB based Data Delivery 16 and 32 bit development for Windows and OS/2 905-936-9100 Fax 905-936-9099 our home page: http://www.rose.com/~joevella 1959 Bellanca Cruisemaster - My Sweetie. 1995 Summit 470 1993 Audi S4Q 1890 Karn Tracker ( Pipe Organ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:53:14 -0300 From: "Ord Millar" Subject: Re: Circuit boards MG Chemicals conformal coating stripper, cat #831 is usually good for this. It's really thick, so it's easy to get it just on the area that you need to work on. It's a little bit aggressive, so you can't leave it for too long on the board. - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Kelly To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Circuit boards >Tom, > I socketed the flash chips on my 95 Camaro LT1 PCM. It had a clear >waterproofing all over the board. This seemed to also be under the chips. I >built a copper foil damn around the Flash chips, then used a heat gun to remove >the surface mount Flash chips, The heat from the heat gun melted the solder and >softened all the goo up so I could pull off the chips. I then cleaned up the >area with repeated cleaning with alcohol. Alcohol did not really disolve it , >but with scrubbing it cleaned the board up enough to allow me to solder on the >sockets. > > Ken > >Tom Sharpe wrote: >> >> I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The >> CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is >> also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. >> >> Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? >> >> How about the glue? >> >> Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:19:19 -0400 From: Pat Ford Subject: RE: sequential gearboxes On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, g8stw wrote: > > I have done some preliminary work on this, there are two possible ways, a) > using Hydraulics and b) using pneumatics. > Pneumatics being cheaper and possibly faster you also need a > micro-controller and some position sensors. their should be a mechanical solution like motor bikes use. picture a cyclinder with groves if you lose the gear shift lever so the shift rails are available. for each gear, you make each of the 3 rails go to a given position eg on my landrover f= towards the front r= towards the rear n= in the middle rail ( L to R ) Rev, 3-4 and 1-2 1st n n r 2nd n n f 3rd n r n 4th n f n rev f n n it shouldn't be hard to make this chart into a pattern of groves so when the cyl. rotate the rails are pushed in or pulled out. if the trany has shilt levers I think hurst used to have a linear shifter > > If you want to discuss this further you can email direct if you wish. > > John > > john@xxx.uk > > > > > > I know this is not fuel injection but thought maybe > > someone would have some info. > > > > How does a sequential gearbox change work and could it > > be possible to convert a gated box ie H pattern to a > > sequential change. > > > > Thanks Roy > > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:24:50 -0500 From: Terry_Sare@xxx.com Subject: RE: Circuit boards The Clear Coating is Conformal coating. Check on unused corner of board and see if the B12 carb cleaner will start it peeling. I used that on board I used to repair. Also used the, I think name was Chemtool, stuff you soaked carbs in to remove. As always, if carb cleaner says is dissolves plastic, don't get in on thing you want to keep. Failing that -- go to your nearest electronic supply store and get conformal coat remover. (NOT radio shack:-)). Terry - -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sharpe [mailto:twsharpe@xxx.com] Sent: Sunday, April 11, 1999 2:55 PM To: efi332@xxx.edu Subject: Circuit boards I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? How about the glue? Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:18:12 -0500 From: Matt S Bower Subject: Ford Serial data Can anyone help me out. I am looking for info on the ford eec IV data stream for a scantool. Have done some web searching and archive searching but have come up with nothing (maybe just missed the good one?). I normally stick with GM (What I know and like), but wife has a '93 Taurus and what can it hurt to see how they do things on the other side of the fence. Any info you can through my way will be a help. Thanks Matt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:22:30 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Trigger Signal: MSD 6A, 7AL ?? There is a comprehensive document on the FTP site in pdf format about MSD ignition. It's got a description about the inputs and outputs, schematic, parts list, etc. Go to the diy_efi WWW page, to ftp site index, and it's the very last link. - --steve Paul Ko wrote: > > Does anyone know how the trigger signal for the MSD ignition boxes look > like? This is thru the points wire (white). I assume it is a rising > signal because points output a rising signal and also the testing > procedure for the MSD is to ground and release the white wire, where the > trigger is upon the release from ground. > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul Ko > pko@xxx.com > http://www.mindspring.com/~pko > > Formula SAE UCDavis Team Captain > http://mae.engr.ucdavis.edu/~fsae - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:26:29 -0600 From: Andrew Subject: Injector listing Hi guys, Somewhere on the web I remember seeing a listing of injectors used on various vehicles. Does anyone know of a site with such a listing? Thanks, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:47:38 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Another Question about the Northstar If it's one "module" talking to another, then the communication is probably a digital stream ala OBD-II rather than analog signals. Like Roger said, though, the HELM manual is the way to go, should have all the info (at least an indication of whether the signal is analog or digital). - --steve Roger Heflin wrote: > > On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Chris Moore wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > I think you all know the problem I was having. But for those who > > don't, My wheels will not peel out. I have a power problem in the > > low end. Again I think it has to do with the Torque Management > > system on the 4.6 Northstar. I was looking into just making a pulse > > generator to produce a wheel speed signal and run it into the brake > > module. But I was thinking. The Northstar has two wires that run > > into the PCM from the EBTCM(Electronic Brake Traction Control Module) > > that have to do with the controling of the Torque Management. The > > first wire is Delivered Torque and the second wire is Desired Torque > > Output. These are the wires that let the PCM know how many injectors > > to shut down and how much timing to retard. It is read by a scanner > > by percentage.0% to 100%. Now, common sense tells me that one of the > > wires are a power wire and one is a ground or a return. Is there any > > way that I could run the correct voltage to the PCM that will say > > that there is 0% of Torque Management and that would do away with the > > EBTCM all together. With that being done, that would save me all the > > hassles of trying to fool the EBTCM. There are other variables to > > that we would have to try to fool like the RPM, VSS, Throttle > > position. If we could just figure out how much voltage to send than > > we could just get rid of the EBTCM and all the other variables would > > not matter. I hope someone can help me. Thanks everyone for the > > help. > > > > Chris Moore > > Probably the best way to figure out what needs to be input is to find > a helm manual for the car you got the engine from. The mhelm I have > for my car hass quite a bit of detail on the wiring and what sort of > signals and ranges are supposed to be on those wires. If the wires > are "delivered torque" and "desired torque" then making sure the > "desired torque" is a higher value than the "delivered torque" would > probably make everything work correctly. And assuming (dangerous) > that the input signals are both 5V, rig a voltage divider and give the > "desired torque" a bit higher value than the delievered torque, and > the computer should no longer back things off. The sure way to know > though would be to find/borrow a copy of the helm for that car and > study the section on the traction control system. > > Roger - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:51:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Easterbrook Subject: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? I have some injectors designed for use at 16barg (230psi). I have measured them against other race injectors at 10bar (145psi), 16bar (230psi) and 30bar (435psi) on my test bed and found that the atomisation performance and linearity are very good at 16 bar and excellent at 30bar. I would like to run these on a car, but I need to find a suitable fuel pump setup. I need either a mechanical pump or a combination of electic pumps that can supply 98 octane pump fuel for 600hp at 16bar or 30 bar (ideally). The pump(s) would be fed from a pressurised pre-tank (running about 1barg). Any recommendations? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:11:06 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Injector listing I've seen a long Bosch list before posted to the list. It should be in the archives, a specific search should turn it up (remember to AND the search terms to narrow the search). There's a list of ford injectors in the OEM/FORD section of the DIY_EFI page. Also I've had good luck typing part numbers directly into Altavista (casting numbers, GM part numbers, etc.). - --steve Andrew wrote: > > Hi guys, > Somewhere on the web I remember seeing a listing of injectors used on > various vehicles. Does anyone know of a site with such a listing? > > Thanks, > Andrew - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:35:42 +0200 From: yaron sadot Subject: Re: Injector listing autospeed.com yaron Andrew wrote: > Hi guys, > Somewhere on the web I remember seeing a listing of injectors used on > various vehicles. Does anyone know of a site with such a listing? > > Thanks, > Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:45:24 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Easterbrook To: Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? What style/manufacturer are these?. Bruce > I have some injectors designed for use at 16barg (230psi). I have > measured them against other race injectors at 10bar (145psi), 16bar > (230psi) and 30bar (435psi) on my test bed and found that the > atomisation performance and linearity are very good at 16 bar and > excellent at 30bar. > > I would like to run these on a car, but I need to find a suitable fuel > pump setup. I need either a mechanical pump or a combination of > electic pumps that can supply 98 octane pump fuel for 600hp at 16bar > or 30 bar (ideally). The pump(s) would be fed from a pressurised > pre-tank (running about 1barg). > > Any recommendations? > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @xxx.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:31:35 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Torque measurement Torsional deflection, in radians, for a solid bar is ((L*32)/(pi*d^4))*(T/G) where d is the diameter, T is torque and G is shear modulus. For your axle, I calculate 0.00267 which is 0.15 degrees. Gary Derian > > What about putting a postion sensor on both the inner and outer CV joint (for > front wheel drive engine) and measuring the twist in the driveshaft? > > My Mini has a 450mm by 25mm driveshaft. > > Anyone know rough calculations for torque v twist? > > The motor puts about 340 Nm on the ground (100Nm at the crank) in top gear. > > -- > Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.com > - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:59:33 -0700 From: Greg Woods Subject: RE: Circuit boards > I have a couple of EEC_IV boards that I am trying to disassemble. The > CPU and ROM seem to be glued down then sodered into place. There is > also a heavy, clear coating (waterproofing?) over everything. > > Does anyone know what will disolve this without destroying the board? > > How about the glue? > > Thanks in Advance Tom Sharpe When I worked at Allied Signal in the General Aviation Division, we coated all our boards with a product called Hemi-Seal. It was a sort of waterproofing that enabled our boards to pass the extremely high humidity and salt water spray specs for FAA approval. It was a substance that is just like what your describing. I think Toms right when he suggests acetone to remove it. I think that'll work. hope this helped... Greg Woods gwoods@xxx.com austin, tx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:35:41 +0100 From: Martin Easterbrook Subject: RE: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? We designed them in-house for Formula One use (they're used on the McLaren, Prost, TWR and Jordan). They're made by Keihin Seiki in Japan - best known for carburettors. F1 customers are easy because they all design/manufacture their own mechanical pumps but some teams in other categories with less money (eg World Rally Car, FIA GT) want to use these injectors too. Martin mailto:martin.easterbrook@xxx.net - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp@xxx.net] Sent: 12 April 1999 17:45 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Easterbrook To: Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: high pressure fuel pumps - recommendations? What style/manufacturer are these?. Bruce > I have some injectors designed for use at 16barg (230psi). I have > measured them against other race injectors at 10bar (145psi), 16bar > (230psi) and 30bar (435psi) on my test bed and found that the > atomisation performance and linearity are very good at 16 bar and > excellent at 30bar. > > I would like to run these on a car, but I need to find a suitable fuel > pump setup. I need either a mechanical pump or a combination of > electic pumps that can supply 98 octane pump fuel for 600hp at 16bar > or 30 bar (ideally). The pump(s) would be fed from a pressurised > pre-tank (running about 1barg). > > Any recommendations? > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @xxx.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:44:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Subject: Re: Motronic error states / limp home mode > it is a '93 Audi S4 motronic, and I believe I'm getting the Manifold pressure sensor > failure mode ( due to it not agreeing with the air mass sensor, due to running > 23 PSI of boost ) making it enter limp home after about 10 seconds on boost. I'm not surprised. It has a 2.5bar sensor and 23 psi is over 2.5bar. > How long does the ECU take to recover from a power interruption (reset) > thought two was that I would reset the ECU at 5 second intervals when the boost > exceeded 15 PSI ( say .02 sec pulse of the supply voltage ) ? Too long. At least one revolution to resync the crank/cam sensors. Then it will have forgotten any knock retard it had. Get a spark at the wrong time and you'll likely bend a rod at that boost. > Thought 3 - which registers are responsible, I can cut a new EPROM if I have to, > but I'd rather not if it isn't necessary. > If someone has mapped one of these to 23PSI I wouldn't mind having the code ? That would be EPROMs. There are two CPUs in the ECU, one for fuel/timing and one for boost control/knock retard. You would need a 3bar pressure sensor too which entails many more changes in the tables. This has been done, but it costs significant $. Talk to Ned Ritchie at Intended Acceleration... www.intendedacceleration.com for information. Orin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:57:28 -0700 From: "Mark Romans" Subject: Re: Another Question about the Northstar Use a tech2 or diacom to look at if torque management is being used. Northstars don't have a lot of torque. Mark - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Heflin To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 6:58 AM Subject: Re: Another Question about the Northstar > > >On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Chris Moore wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> I think you all know the problem I was having. But for those who >> don't, My wheels will not peel out. I have a power problem in the >> low end. Again I think it has to do with the Torque Management >> system on the 4.6 Northstar. I was looking into just making a pulse >> generator to produce a wheel speed signal and run it into the brake >> module. But I was thinking. The Northstar has two wires that run >> into the PCM from the EBTCM(Electronic Brake Traction Control Module) >> that have to do with the controling of the Torque Management. The >> first wire is Delivered Torque and the second wire is Desired Torque >> Output. These are the wires that let the PCM know how many injectors >> to shut down and how much timing to retard. It is read by a scanner >> by percentage.0% to 100%. Now, common sense tells me that one of the >> wires are a power wire and one is a ground or a return. Is there any >> way that I could run the correct voltage to the PCM that will say >> that there is 0% of Torque Management and that would do away with the >> EBTCM all together. With that being done, that would save me all the >> hassles of trying to fool the EBTCM. There are other variables to >> that we would have to try to fool like the RPM, VSS, Throttle >> position. If we could just figure out how much voltage to send than >> we could just get rid of the EBTCM and all the other variables would >> not matter. I hope someone can help me. Thanks everyone for the >> help. >> >> Chris Moore > >Probably the best way to figure out what needs to be input is to find >a helm manual for the car you got the engine from. The mhelm I have >for my car hass quite a bit of detail on the wiring and what sort of >signals and ranges are supposed to be on those wires. If the wires >are "delivered torque" and "desired torque" then making sure the >"desired torque" is a higher value than the "delivered torque" would >probably make everything work correctly. And assuming (dangerous) >that the input signals are both 5V, rig a voltage divider and give the >"desired torque" a bit higher value than the delievered torque, and >the computer should no longer back things off. The sure way to know >though would be to find/borrow a copy of the helm for that car and >study the section on the traction control system. > > Roger > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #223 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".