DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, April 15 1999 Volume 04 : Number 226 In this issue: Re: LOOKING FOR AN ADAPTER Re: DFI vs TEC II RE: Holley Pro-Jection 4D instructions Simulation/Modeling Tools TEC II heat notes Re: Simulation/Modeling Tools Software and programing cable 4 x 4 Fuel Injection Re: wanted corvette transmission Re: Simulation/Modeling Tools Re: sequential gearboxes See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:45:36 -0400 From: Nico Over Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR AN ADAPTER Eugene Jones wrote: > > I am looking for an adapter to use a GM tbi on a 4barrel Holly or Q-Jet > manifold. > Has anyone seen one advertised? > thanks I got one from Turbo City awhile back, It adapt the GM TBI to the square bore Holley bolt pattern. Was a bit pricey as I remember but it does work. Nico http://www.turbocity.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:53:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: DFI vs TEC II - --- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > >types of software available, such as MAP, MAF. > However, by time you pay > >for the software license, the TEC II seems to be > more expensive. > > Actually I did in fact reply to your message... > however I just built a new > server because the old one foobar'd, therefore maybe > it didn't make it > through successfully. > > I have a fair amount of experience with Haltach and > TecII, and for a forced > induction engine, its a mere toss-up. The one > major, major advantage of the > TEC-II is that its an under-hood bolt together > system that uses OEM sensors > (or Electromotive sensors - same thing) using spade > connectors. The TEC > units have screw terminals everywhere, and you can > interface this to your > engine very easily. Go to the junkyard, buy > sensors, and take the wires > going to said sensors and cut them as far back as > you can. Reduces the > price significantly actually. The software is very > expensive, however it is > as flexible as you can imagine. Boost, no boost, > MAP/MAF, etc, and you can > change your configuration very easily as you add one > or two turbochargers > . > > I think compared between the two, the TEC II is the > leader. Bolt it to your > firewall, and its done. > > More info on TEC11 please and would it work on a 5 > cylinder engine. > > Thanks Roy > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:18:09 -0600 From: "M. Jones" Subject: RE: Holley Pro-Jection 4D instructions If I can remember (!) I'll scan them tonight and e-mail them to you directly. Mike J. - ---------- From: Raymond C Drouillard[SMTP:cosmic.ray@xxx.com] Reply To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 9:23 PM To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu Subject: Holley Pro-Jection 4D instructions I just purchased the six-knob programmer that is used on Holley Pro-Jection 4D. I am using it on my 4Di to more easily "rough in" the settings. Unfortunately, I lost the instructions for using it. If anyone has the instructions and can scan or fax them, I will be eternally grateful. If you scan the instructions, please send them to: cosmicray@xxx. My Juno.com account doesn't receive binaries. Thanks in advance, Ray Drouillard ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:41:08 -0400 From: David Rhoads Subject: Simulation/Modeling Tools Help ... I'm looking for some additional information to wrap up a term paper that I'm writing. What I need is info/comments on various modeling/simluation languages/tools used in industry over the years. Things such as product, used in what industries/type of applications, pros & cons, etc. Any insights into various packages or websites with good overview info would be greatly appreciated. If you consider this topic inappropriate for the group list, please e-mail me directly. TIA - -- . David Rhoads II . Applied Dynamics International . 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108 . (734) 973-1300 . rhoads@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:19:19 -0700 From: Jason_Leone@xxx.com Subject: TEC II heat notes <> Electromotive has decent support. Example: TEC II unit was heat soaked beyond belief, and would not take a new program of communicate w/ the laptop at all. Sent it back to Electro, and they didn't find anything wrong. Then, they heat cycled it...and discovered that the solder around the EPROM was melting at temp. Fixed the problem, unit sent back...all is well. I really don't think you'll need any replacement parts for the TEC II (if you don't heat soak it!). Most people don't balance the crank wheel well enough, so at high rpm the magnetic pickup gets destroyed (by the out of round teeth of the crank wheel). Most people run a little bit more of an air gap than Electromotive recommends (let's say .025", instead of .015"...this helps eliminate the "runout" problem). We aren't using a crank wheel (we tapped the factory engine speed sensor signal), so I don't have to be concerned about that. <> Keyword is "firewall". The heat soak problem I mentioned was due to the TEC II being mounted to the side of an Aluminum cylinder head (where the distributor used to be). The thermal conductivity of the mounting plate, combined with high under hood temps...simply overwhelmed the TEC II unit, when the car was shut off and left to sit for more than 30 minutes. We fabbed a SS heat shield, and sandwiched some ceramic header tape between the TEC II and the cylinder head. No problems at all. BUT...I highly recommend mounting the TEC II as far away from the engine as possible. Get it in the battery tray, the airbox location, the firewall...whatever. Just get it away from the engine. It can handle 180F air temps, but it has it's limits (we found them). It's better to make custom plug wires (in my case, we're talking custom length VW VR6 BERU plug boots w/ GM HEI coil boots) that allow you to mount the TEC II anywhere...than to have it get heat soaked. I think the car in question had something to do with it too. The VW Corrado VR6 engine compartment was designed for a supercharged 1.8L four cyl., and not a 2.8L V6 engine. The VR6 is a high temp engine to start with, but in a small engine compartment...things get hot under there. Very hot. Add a turbo, and temps are even higher. I can't wait for that problem. =( Jason '93 SLC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:37:03 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Simulation/Modeling Tools Scientific American had an article about car companies using finite element type software to simulate crashes, sometime in the last 3 months or so. They mentioned at least 2 FE programs that car companies use. - --steve David Rhoads wrote: > > Help ... > > I'm looking for some additional information to wrap up a term paper that > I'm writing. What I need is info/comments on various > modeling/simluation languages/tools used in industry over the years. > Things such as product, used in what industries/type of applications, > pros & cons, etc. Any insights into various packages or websites with > good overview info would be greatly appreciated. > > If you consider this topic inappropriate for the group list, please > e-mail me directly. > > TIA > > -- > . David Rhoads II > . Applied Dynamics International > . 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108 > . (734) 973-1300 > . rhoads@xxx.com - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:29:50 -0500 From: Tony Garcia Subject: Software and programing cable Hi everyone.Does anyone have an extra programing cable for the Acell dfi.Also any updated software.Thanks Tony ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:22:40 -0700 From: "Michael Selig" Subject: 4 x 4 Fuel Injection I am new to this list. I am an owner of a 350 gas Hummer for the last 3 years. Many on the Hummer mailing list have been talking about putting in a Whipple -worm type superchargers. I make claims that there have been reports that the whipple is associated with bottom end going, even with 4 bolts mains blazer engines. Some of the problems with Off road and Fording vehicles--are there watertigtness. I still state that EFI is the way to go. More low end smooth torque. I have been waiting for this current Throttle body injection engine to have problem, but it is hanging in there without a whimper or a miss. This is a post I made this week, based on several references I have come across. I know I have a long way to go.. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Selig To: Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 10:42 PM Subject: Electronic Multiport Fuel Injection-operations 2-- long winded alert- For those of you gassers who may be interested in these fuel injection systems, they are complex but really do increase gas mileage, throttle response, Hp about 20-40, and torque mostly at low rpms. I have now read 1 book and several articles on fuel injection and am getting a little more familiar with the concepts and hardware. I revised this twice --now it may provide some useful info. Most of the sensors and setup are also present on turbo diesel vehicles, so heads up. BACKGROUND DESCRIPTION: Fuel Injection differs from Carburetors, in that the fuel is pressurized before it enters the intake tract as opposed to being siphoned through a carburetor with engine vacuum. Early Mechanical systems were simply Nozzles and their primary function was to atomize the fuel as it was sprayed. The specific amount of fuel delivered was determined by the injector pump which housed a piston for every injector. The displacement of the piston determined the amount of fuel to be pumped. The piston also pressurized the fuel. The pump had to be accurately, mechanically timed to the engine, like the distributor and camshaft. Mechanical injection systems offered several significant advantages over carburetors, but were plagued by their lack of adaptability as well as expensive production and maintenance costs. Electronic injection although seemingly complex, is simpler in many ways. There are 2 main physical types --Throttle body injection and Multiport. In throttle body, the injectors are placed inside the throttle body housing above the throttle plates. These systems look like regular carbureted engines, and utilize wet manifolds. Wet manifolds carries air and fuel, are more restrictive because the runners most carry the mixture that falls out of suspension and collects on the runner floor. A dry manifold carries only air. The runners can be tailored for operating range of the engine. Multiport injection systems (MPI) have one injector per cylinder (some have 2) placed at the end of each runner of a dry intake manifold. Injectors are mounted 70-100 mm from the intake valve seat and spray atomized fuel at the back side of the intake valve. MPI systems still use a throttle body with specific sized bore, not unlike a carburetor, but monitor only air. The Injectors are specifically sized NOZZLES, but also valve actuated by built in electric solenoids. The electronic Control Module (ECU) determines when each injector opens and for how long. Fuel is provided to all the injectors by a common fuel RAIL, which is pressurized by an electric fuel pump usually located in the fuel tank. High fuel pressure causes atomization of the fuel as it comes out of the nozzles. These systems operate at standard psi and use vacuum. Modulated pressure regulators reduce rail pressure at times ie the amount of fuel delivered at idle. The regulator bleeds off excess fuel pressure back to the tank via a return line. Engines using forced induction are setup to provide additional fuel under BOOST. As a rule, every 1 psi of boost requires an additional 1 psi if fuel pressure. The injectors are sized according to their rate of flow, rather than measured in physical dimensions of spray mechanism. The rate is usually calculated by the amount of fuel that the injector passes in a given time. Aftermarket units use fuel/hour. OEM use a more precise standard- grams or cubic centimeters /second. The size of the injector, pressure and volume of fuel feeding it, are fixed characteristics that effect fuel delivery--the variable is the opening and closing of the injectors. The event that occurs each time an injector opens and closes is called a DUTY CYCLE or a PULSE. The length of time the injector stays open determines the PULSE WIDTH. The longer the pulse width, the more fuel being sprayed. During normal cruise--1 pulse/ firing cylinder. Rapid opening of the throttle-leads to multiple injector pulses per ignition signal. This provides the same enrichment function as the accelerator pump in a carburetor. PULSING is controlled by the Electronic control unit or computer. Raw data is processed and compared to data that has been programmed by the manufacturer, but the unit can also learn about operational or driver patterns of a specific vehicle. The ECU adjusts engine management via Activators.. These systems also come in 2 varieties--SEQUENTIAL vs BATCH Firing. Sequential--fires one injector at a time in a the sequence of the firing order. This offers better performance and fuel economy --but needs more precise controls. BATCH firing--triggers multiple injectors at a time, sometimes according to cylinder bank-as in our gas engines. Injectors open to 1/2 of the programmed pulse width and fire more than one pulse/cylinder/cycle. Therefore only a portion of the total fuel is injected and has to wait for the second half to be delivered, when the intake valve opens. The stock GM Throttle body computer pairs injection pulses. The ideal system sequences the injection pulses individually. There are 2 basic control types-- MAF---MASS AIR FLOW sensed, before 1990 GM and after the SPEED DENSITY SYSTEM. These systems give optimal fuel mixture at all RPMs and have made gas engines very reliable. They involve the Electronic Control Unit (ECU) with a Programmable Read Only Memory (PROM -our favorite) and multiple sensors. These modules are mapped units and sense changes in hardware --lower resistance filters, less exhaust resistance, camshaft changes, ie and adjust accordingly. These units have learning capability and also adjust to gas octane variability, air temp and driving mode (floored). The systems have many sensors, but have been found to be extremely reliable over many years: Mass Air Flow Sensor-MAF--Located in the air intake and measures air flow before reaching the engine. It measures air volume to the cylinder by monitoring the electrical resistance in a thin heated wire as it is cooled by incoming air. The more air that passes though the sensor the more voltage is required to heat it up. This sensor is less affected by engine mods. Air Change Temp sensor. Usually located in the duct from the air cleaner or in the intake manifold. Measure temp of incoming air. Used in conjunction with the TPS. MAP/MAF to determine volumetric efficiency. Idle air control (IAC)-Adjusts idle speed to engine load and temp. Threads into the housing below air intake. Coolant is routed through the IAC housing to enhance cold run operation. Throttle position switch (TPS)- Tells the ECM amount and speed at which the throttle is being opened or closed. Measures angle of throttle plates and how much throttle the operator is using. Calculates Air/fuel mixture needed during acceleration. Stock 0.54 volts. located on the passenger side. Knock Sensor-Works like a microphone to hear knock or pings and retards timing.. Is imperative. Must be installed in tge lower portion of the block. It must correspond with the MAP orMAF. Safeguards against poor quality gas. Engine coolant temp sensor- Usually threaded into the coolant passage of the intake manifold. Data is used to determine cold start or warm up enrichment, idle speed control, spark advance and Air/Fuel mixture. Oil pressure sensor--Cuts fuel in event of oil loss. Acts as a backup if the relay fails. After cranking for 5 seconds with a fail pump relay, the oil sender will detect oil and trigger the pump. Vehicle speed sensor--VVS --The ECU for most factory units use its input. Aftermarket unit eliminate the VSS hookup. The EFI will operate more efficiently ans smoothly with it. Most EFI vehicles use this for the electronic speedometer, eliminating the cable drive. === The SPEED DENSITY SYSTEMS are basically the same as the Mass Air Flow sensed but without the MAF and uses a Manifold absolute sensor (MAP) instead. Later systems use a MAP-manifold absolute pressure sensor. This one is cheaper, simpler, requires only a vacuum connection in addition to a harness connection. Factory systems mount the sensor to the intake manifold and reads manifold pressure. These vehicles need to be reprogrammed if modified. Manifold air temp sensor (MAT)-Sends air temp data to ECM. The MAP--functions like an electronic vacuum gauge--does not change A/F mixture. O2 sensor-Required. Measures O2 in rhe system and converts date to voltage which keeps incoming mixture at STOICHIOMETRIC or chemically ideal Air/Fuel mixture of around 14.7:1. Be they carbureted or injected, engines need to run at specific metered air fuel mixtures. This value changes with rpm and load. Lean or Rich has been used. Lean -too much air. Rich --too much fuel. Air fuel has been stated in N parts of air to a constant 1 part of fuel. Contemporary theory dictates the ideal is 14:1 for catalytic converter operation. Peak horsepower is attained at 13:1 ratio, but Max torque at 12.9:1 at wide open throttle. 16.7:1 is best for fuel economy and a sharp rise in emissions, rendering a catalytic converter ineffective. 12:1 is too rich to produce adequate horsepower and causes converter meltdown, due to inability to burn unused fuel. Excess fuel or too rich also washes oil from the cylinder walls--increasing ring and bore wear. Too lean-leads to cataclysmic event. O2 burns at extremely high temps. Higher combustion temps can lead to pre-ignition which can blow head gaskets and melt pistons. MODES: There is a Limp home mode--in case of major system malfunction. a OPEN LOOP mode-when not under control of the O2 sensor or during warm up or wide open operation. Air fuel is adjusted according to the TPS, engine rpm and other data. CLOSED LOOP-When up to temp, wide open, and gives good gas mileage. GM unit notes: There have been many variations from 1985 to now, so there is a problem with compatibility of parts. The angle of the bolt holes in the intake manifolds vary if you are considering picking up parts a yard. 85-86 manifolds angles same as rest, bolt to older engines. 87-92 center hole drilled at unique angle. Always get complete setup -- sensors, harness, computer, fuel pump and manifold from the same donor car. There are conflicts with Beltdrive accessories, exhaust plumbing, air cleaner. Stand alone wiring harnesses are available. Injectors for the 305 rated at 19 lbs/hour For 350 22 lbs/hour. If using small units and adapting to a 350. install adjustable fuel pressure regular in place if stock. Need higher pressure for smaller injectors. Fuel Lines: Need to be plumbed for High pressure operation--uses flare nut fittings. Need a low pressure return line that should be at least 2/3 tge size of the feed. A vent tube is also needed. Corvette fuel lines on the passenger side, F cars on drivers side. FUEL RAILS: Lines that distribute fuel to all the injectors. Fed by incoming fuel lines, pressurized by the fuel pump and pressure adjusted by the regulator via the Manifold vacuum signal. Connected also to the return line. Fuel pump: Most TPI systems use a min fuel pressure of 40-45 psi, so an electric fuel pump is necessary. Factory pumps are in the fuel tanks. OE tanks have problematic baffling to keep fuel from running away from the sump, during low fuel cornering. If the pump runs dry, the engine stumbles and stalls. The fuel pump also keep cool in the tank. When the pump runs dry it can quickly kill itself. Use an EFI tank with baffling or an external pump with fuel reservoir. PLENUM or upper manifold: All have cast in Passenger EGRS Pre 89s have another passage for cold start system--a triangular port between the 2 throttle openings for the Idle Air Control Circuit. All Plenums have a port for inlet air temp sensor and a power brake vacuum. 90-92 incorporate vacuum for the map sensor. SIDE RUNNERS: The big tubes that connect from Plenum to manifold. Passenger sides are all the same. Drivers side varies. Pre 89 uses the auxiliary injector. Street and Performance offers a plug kit to mate early runners with later electronics. Small tube feeds air to 9th injector--all drivers side units have it. Smaller runners support higher rpm. Throttle bodies: Usually around 48 mm butterflies. Pre 89 have a small triangular port on bottom which matches to the plenum to receive air for the IAC. Distributor: Ignition systems must be compatible with EFI. The ECU reads a signal from the distributor to determine injector firing order. What do you think? Does anyone know anymore?? ms Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment. "Reality will kill you unless you deal with it through myths and metaphors." Ray Bradbury Michael Selig, MD, FACC. www.lifelinecardiology.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:40:28 -0500 From: "Chris G. Lucas" Subject: Re: wanted corvette transmission Check www.gearzone.net This is the "Home of Corvette 4+3 Overdrives". There is alot of information on this transmission here. Paul Blaccard (Admin) is very informed of these and other manual transmissions. His email is support@xxx. Sorry it took so long, I am just onlooking the discussion as of now. I am wondering what I need to get started in interfacing the computer of a 94 Z28 6speed. I have no idea where to begin. Thanks Chris Lucas WATCHmeDRV@xxx.com wrote: > I am looking for super T10 parts or the complete trans. It's a 4+3 for a > corvette. > If anyone can help me with some parts or a complete trans that you might have > laying around, It would sure help me out. My # is 706-547-0052, if no answer > please leave a message. > Thanks, > DETROIT AMERSON ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:46:16 -0400 From: H Villemure Subject: Re: Simulation/Modeling Tools David Rhoads wrote: > > Help ... > > I'm looking for some additional information to wrap up a term paper that > I'm writing. What I need is info/comments on various > modeling/simluation languages/tools The Pro/Eng (Pro/Engineer) package is indeed the most complete one I have seen with mechanical, heat transfer and motion simulations. Hope this helps, - -- Helene V. ___________________ welcome to mk2@xxx.com visit us at http://come.to/helene-and-matti ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:07:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: sequential gearboxes Hi Simon " Shift without lift " sounds good and i have heard a little about it, is this where the engine management system reduces engine rpm by cutting cylinders during a gearchange ? If I can be of any help with the EFI stuff let me know Roy - --- Simon & Heidi Young wrote: > > Finally something I can contribute to, I'm still > learning all this EFI > stuff. > > Of course sequential boxes are kinda EFI related as > one of the advantages > they bring is the capacity to set up a "shift withou > lift" system, > programmed through the ECU. > > It woult be possible to rig a hydraulic or > electro-mechanical system to > make an H pattern box shift like a sequential (ie > the lever acts like a > seq.), the question is why bother, it will likely be > more clumsy and > innefficient than a properly set up H pattern. > Anyway, if the box has > synchros you will probably not be able to use the > faster shift speed a seq. > system may give you. > > The other alternative would be to modify the box to > make it a true > sequential. This would involve mounting the forks > on a rail where they are > free to slide and adding the "barrel" to make the > right fork engage as the > previous one disengages. Yes it's done exactly like > a motorcycle box. > Entirely possible and a challenging project for a > well equipped machinist > but for the DIYist ? > > I know where you are coming from though, how slick > do those CART/BTCC/WRC > shifts look. > > Simon Young > Sunbury, Australia > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #226 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".