DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, April 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 234 In this issue: 350-- Which Intake Re: ask for help Re: ID these BCC codes, please? Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: ID these BCC codes, please? Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: ask for help Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Mustang inner-cooler Re: O2 sensor idea Alky testing See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:01:19 -0700 From: "Michael Selig" Subject: 350-- Which Intake MS: A later model 350 manifold should work--If you are using the 305 injectors they are smaller than the corvette. You could also be having a fuel pump problem.. GM unit notes: There have been many variations from 1985 to now, so there is a problem with compatibility of parts. The angle of the bolt holes in the intake manifolds vary if you are considering picking up parts a yard. 85-86 manifolds angles same as rest, bolt to older engines. 87-92 center hole drilled at unique angle. Always get complete setup -- sensors, harness, computer, fuel pump and manifold from the same donor car. There are conflicts with Beltdrive accessories, exhaust plumbing, air cleaner. Stand alone wiring harnesses are available. Injectors for the 305 rated at 19 lbs/hour For 350 22 lbs/hour. If using small units and adapting to a 350. install adjustable fuel pressure regular in place if stock. Need higher pressure for smaller injectors. Fuel Lines: Need to be plumbed for High pressure operation--uses flare nut fittings. Need a low pressure return line that should be at least 2/3 tge size of the feed. A vent tube is also needed. Corvette fuel lines on the passenger side, F cars on drivers side. FUEL RAILS: Lines that distribute fuel to all the injectors. Fed by incoming fuel lines, pressurized by the fuel pump and pressure adjusted by the regulator via the Manifold vacuum signal. Connected also to the return line. Fuel pump: Most TPI systems use a min fuel pressure of 40-45 psi, so an electric fuel pump is necessary. Factory pumps are in the fuel tanks. OE tanks have problematic baffling to keep fuel from running away from the sump, during low fuel cornering. If the pump runs dry, the engine stumbles and stalls. The fuel pump also keep cool in the tank. When the pump runs dry it can quickly kill itself. Use an EFI tank with baffling or an external pump with fuel reservoir. PLENUM or upper manifold: All have cast in Passenger EGRS Pre 89s have another passage for cold start system--a triangular port between the 2 throttle openings for the Idle Air Control Circuit. All Plenums have a port for inlet air temp sensor and a power brake vacuum. 90-92 incorporate vacuum for the map sensor. SIDE RUNNERS: The big tubes that connect from Plenum to manifold. Passenger sides are all the same. Drivers side varies. Pre 89 uses the auxiliary injector. Street and Performance offers a plug kit to mate early runners with later electronics. Small tube feeds air to 9th injector--all drivers side units have it. Smaller runners support higher rpm. Throttle bodies: Usually around 48 mm butterflies. Pre 89 have a small triangular port on bottom which matches to the plenum to receive air for the IAC. Distributor: Ignition systems must be compatible with EFI. The ECU reads a signal from the distributor to determine injector firing order. What do you think? Does anyone know anymore?? ms Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment. "Reality will kill you unless you deal with it through myths and metaphors." Ray Bradbury Michael Selig, MD, FACC. www.lifelinecardiology.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Sunday, April 18, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Which Intake Chris G. Lucas wrote: > > > I've looked at the GM TPI system, but since it was designed for a 305 > > ci, and runs out of breathing by 4500 RPM on a stock 305/350 small > > block, I figure it's way too small for 434ci. I've also considered > > something like the Lingenfelter(sp)and the Accel TPI systems. Most of > > these are suppose to be good for 5,800 RPM on a 350 SBC, and I wonder if > > they are big enough. Are the bigger volumes in the after market systems > > enough to feed a 434 engine in the low RPM range with the turbos pushing > > enough air through the TPI system to run the engine up to 6,500 RPM? > > > > Is there another system out there that I should consider? > > > > Thanks for your help. > > Not that I know a dang thing about twin turbos, but I did run across a web > site, (probably one everyone has already seen). That has a twin turbo 305 > and tpi. He has done alot of research and could probably give some ideas. > http://www.skulte.com/turbo.html > > Chris Lucas Mr. Skulte was a member of this list for a while. Search the archives for his posts. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:26:55 +0800 From: zhu zhong hua Subject: Re: ask for help Dear David, Thank you very much. Now I can view the Gerber files. But I can't find one tools to revise them. Could you do me one more favor? Regards, zhu zhong hua David A. Cooley wrote: > At 04:00 PM 4/19/99 +0800, you wrote: > >Hi,Dear sir > > I have downloaded fiel efi332v0_4final-pcb.zip from > >ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/pub/efi332/hardware. I unzipped the > >file and got several Gerber files. But I can't open and use it by > >Protel. Which tool was used to build such files? And how can I open > > >them and use it for myself? By the way,the hardware schematic are > all > >in postscript file format. Who have pcb files for them? So I can > use > >them using protel eda tool directly and need not to redraw them > again. > > You don't need Protel or any PCB software to view/print gerber files. > Search the net for GCPreview. It allows you to load Gerber files and > display/print them. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they > didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:11:04 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: ID these BCC codes, please? Ya I did, I missed adding the AKAR is a NM8 option (leaded fuel). The particulares I don't know, but I'd imagine the O2 is not connected to the ecm. Bruce > Holy sheep-shit, he didn't even flinch! 8-) > MV > > ANLZ 5483 5.7 Auto > > AFDY 6022 5.0 Auto > > AKDX 2088 4.3 Auto > > AKAR 1180/2 5.7 Man NM8 > > ARHT 7465 5.7 Man > > ARPC 7509 5.0 Man > > ASDZ 9578 5.7 Auto > > AZFT 9503 7.4 Auto > > ASDW 9544 5.7 Man > > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:17:10 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >> >That is why I want to get a well calibrated wide band unit and setup a >> >pic or something similar to give the kind of results the stock >> >computer wants, and give mv readings that actually mean something. >> >> As I said earlier, Roger, it MAY (not sure yet) be possible to bias a wide >> band O2 sensor with a constant ion pumping current so that it crosses at >> any A/F ratio you want, in the same way that a standard EGO or HEGO sensor >> does--Changing the bias say for cruise or WOT, and leaving an oem ecm in >> closed loop would allow a programmable selection of A/F ratios for >> different operating conditions. (The bias adjustment is what would fool the >> ecu, the sensor would act like normal EGO sensor at 14.7:1.) The bias and >> its changes would need to be dealt with outside of the oem ecu. >> >> Regards, Greg > >The idea is to bias the wide band O2 normally so that it reads the >range of AFR that you want. Then put a pic in front that inputs the >wideband O2 sensor voltage,/other info and converts that via a table >(non linear table to make the wb act like a normal O2 sensor). > >I guess the other idea is to adjust the bias to read the AFR you want, >and then let the computer run in closed loop mode (even at wot), just >with the modified AFR ratio required for max power. And also with a modified AFR, as desired , at light loads, for best cruise economy?? Greg > > Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:23:30 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >Everyone wrote: > >> >> 14.7 AFM > >> >> Guessing is the right word for it > >Assume the following: 2500 RPM, 15 In vacuum (MAP=xxx), closed loop, PW= >6.0ms. > >1. >> If I raise the PW to 7.1, what is the AFR? 12.42 > >2. >> If I lower the PW to 5.0 what is the AFR? 17.64 > >3. >> Can I calc the required PW for WOT from the above numbers? If I want 12.5 >AFR? Why not?? You will be close, but making it run differently MAY affect the VE. Greg > >Just my $0.02 TomS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:12:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >> >That is why I want to get a well calibrated wide band unit and setup a > >> >pic or something similar to give the kind of results the stock > >> >computer wants, and give mv readings that actually mean something. > >> > >> As I said earlier, Roger, it MAY (not sure yet) be possible to bias a wide > >> band O2 sensor with a constant ion pumping current so that it crosses at > >> any A/F ratio you want, in the same way that a standard EGO or HEGO sensor > >> does--Changing the bias say for cruise or WOT, and leaving an oem ecm in > >> closed loop would allow a programmable selection of A/F ratios for > >> different operating conditions. (The bias adjustment is what would fool the > >> ecu, the sensor would act like normal EGO sensor at 14.7:1.) The bias and > >> its changes would need to be dealt with outside of the oem ecu. > >> > >> Regards, Greg > > > >The idea is to bias the wide band O2 normally so that it reads the > >range of AFR that you want. Then put a pic in front that inputs the > >wideband O2 sensor voltage,/other info and converts that via a table > >(non linear table to make the wb act like a normal O2 sensor). > > > >I guess the other idea is to adjust the bias to read the AFR you want, > >and then let the computer run in closed loop mode (even at wot), just > >with the modified AFR ratio required for max power. > > And also with a modified AFR, as desired , at light loads, for best cruise > economy?? > Yes, probably switched off of TPS or in some similar manner to the stock computer, between optimun economy and optium power. It sounds like you could make a stock ecm run correctly with a wide ratio O2 without too much extra work. Where is some good documentation/application notes for a wide ratio O2 sensor? Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:02:36 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: ID these BCC codes, please? I know that cal. intimately---sort of. The O2 was connected, but the cl enable params were changed. Haven't looked at it in almost a year, but I think the coolant temp for enable was raised to 255. Truck owner always complained of poor mileage, I'd say this was part of it. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Ya I did, I missed adding the AKAR is a NM8 option (leaded fuel). > The particulares I don't know, but I'd imagine the O2 is not connected to > the ecm. > Bruce > > > Holy sheep-shit, he didn't even flinch! 8-) > > MV > > > ANLZ 5483 5.7 Auto > > > AFDY 6022 5.0 Auto > > > AKDX 2088 4.3 Auto > > > AKAR 1180/2 5.7 Man NM8 > > > ARHT 7465 5.7 Man > > > ARPC 7509 5.0 Man > > > ASDZ 9578 5.7 Auto > > > AZFT 9503 7.4 Auto > > > ASDW 9544 5.7 Man > > > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:49:21 EDT From: CEIJR@xxx.com Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea Another $.02 Assuming that changes in pulse duration result in linear changes in fuel delivery are OK for rough initial setup. As noted in prior posts, all sorts of other variables come into play. Unfortunately, in addition to VE differences, etc., the fuel flow is not exactly tied to pulse width, due to the variation in percentage of time spent opening and closing. So, it is a rough estimate for initial setup, but not good enough for tuning. Charlie Iliff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:54:52 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >> >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: >> > >> >> >That is why I want to get a well calibrated wide band unit and setup a >> >> >pic or something similar to give the kind of results the stock >> >> >computer wants, and give mv readings that actually mean something. >> >> >> >> As I said earlier, Roger, it MAY (not sure yet) be possible to bias a wide >> >> band O2 sensor with a constant ion pumping current so that it crosses at >> >> any A/F ratio you want, in the same way that a standard EGO or HEGO sensor >> >> does--Changing the bias say for cruise or WOT, and leaving an oem ecm in >> >> closed loop would allow a programmable selection of A/F ratios for >> >> different operating conditions. (The bias adjustment is what would >>fool the >> >> ecu, the sensor would act like normal EGO sensor at 14.7:1.) The bias and >> >> its changes would need to be dealt with outside of the oem ecu. >> >> >> >> Regards, Greg >> > >> >The idea is to bias the wide band O2 normally so that it reads the >> >range of AFR that you want. Then put a pic in front that inputs the >> >wideband O2 sensor voltage,/other info and converts that via a table >> >(non linear table to make the wb act like a normal O2 sensor). >> > >> >I guess the other idea is to adjust the bias to read the AFR you want, >> >and then let the computer run in closed loop mode (even at wot), just >> >with the modified AFR ratio required for max power. >> >> And also with a modified AFR, as desired , at light loads, for best cruise >> economy?? >> > >Yes, probably switched off of TPS or in some similar manner to the >stock computer, between optimun economy and optium power. It sounds >like you could make a stock ecm run correctly with a wide ratio O2 >without too much extra work. > >Where is some good documentation/application notes for a wide ratio O2 >sensor? You can start out by doing a word search on at SAE.org. There is a paper by some NGK guys on their sensor and its function. covers the theory reasonably well. Greg > > Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:15:59 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Subject: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Frederic wrote: > > It was a leftover from my twin-turbo Buick V6 project. Anyway, inside > the plenum is a 2" thick transmission or oil cooler, that I sized the > inside dimensions of my plenum around, as once welded, I wanted an > air-tight fit. All pressurized air from the turbos will blast into the > upper plenum, go through the intercooler, then into the lower plenum, >... > > What the intercooler will be attached to hasn't been decided yet. I did > some preliminary experiments on a Buick V6 engine using radiator coolant > as the "intercooling fluid", and while I didn't document this even > remotely well, I will state that this actually works. Kudo's to Bruce > "Grumpy" Plecan who drilled the idea into my head. The idea is to tap > the radiator fluid pre-engine post-radiator since the coolant is about > 100-110 degrees at this point, and the fresh air post-turbo is closer to > 200 degrees. While not the absolute best design, Bruce was right in > saying that the intercooler temperature would be more consistant, > therefore providing consistant performance, and is MUCH easier to plumb > than a Peterson coolant tank, a box of ice, a 12V marine sump pump, or > any other creative solution you come up with. > Frederic, It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have always tried something that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you expand a little more on your experiments on intercooling using radiator fluid? I am in desperate need of an intercooler. An air/air unit won't work for me. An air/freon unit (using a A/C evaporator) sounds quite slick, but I don't know enough about A/C systems yet to know how well this would work. An air/water unit is the best solution, but has the complexity of a 2nd heat exchanger, pump, coolant tank, etc. I had thought (briefly) about using radiator fluid instead but dismissed it without much thought (afterall, radiator fluid is hot right?). I'm not necessarilly looking for hp gains here, I just want to remove heat to avoid detonation. I have a turbo'd 4 cyl that peaks about 9 psi. On 87 octane though, I get detonation about 6 psi. I'd prefer not to pay the ransome, er, cost that is, of premium so I'm using water injection right now. Even that's marginal though and I rarely allow it to go over 6 or 7 psi but it's hard to do and I can never floor it. You say you sourced your IC water at the outlet of the radiator. How did you hook up the return? In order for water to flow through the IC, the return would have to be at the low pressure area at the suction of the water pump, which is basically the bottom of the radiator. The only way I can see this working is if the source of the IC water was the bottom of the radiator tank opposite the lower rad hose, and the outlet of the IC dumped back into the lower radiator hose, preferably as close to the water pump as possible. Even then though, the pressure difference between the inlet and outlet water for the IC would seem to be pretty low to have significant flow. I would have thought you'd need a booster pump as well to feed the IC. Is this not the case? What about the return water from the IC? This is now going to be hot again, and it's dumping right into the water pump inlet without first being cooled. Is it not hot enough, or not in quantity enough (since it's being mixed with cooled fluid from the radiator) for the engine to really notice? And finally, if all this does work well, then couldn't you get similar results as a seperate air/water system by running the inlet water for the IC through a secondary exchanger like a tranny or oil cooler before reaching the IC? Since it's a relatively small amount of water, this could substantially knock down the 100 - 110 water temp before reaching the IC. More complex? yes. But still much less so than a dedicated water circuit. No pump and no resevoir tank. Oh, and finally. Assume you're cruising a long stretch of freeway where you're not hardly ever in boost. The intake temp will likely be much cooler than the 100 - 110 degree radiator outlet temp so your intercooler becomes an interheater. Do you just plan on living with this or do you use some kind of solenoid valve or something to block flow to the IC unless you're under boost? thanks - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:36:42 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > And finally, if all this does work well, then couldn't you get similar > results as a seperate air/water system by running the inlet water for the > IC through a secondary exchanger like a tranny or oil cooler before reaching > the IC? Since it's a relatively small amount of water, this could Sounds like a job for the heater core if one was so inclined. It's free and already installed.... - -greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:27:36 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: ask for help You might search for PADS PCB software or ORCAD... I think both of those allow importing of the Gerber files for modification. - -----Original Message----- From: zhu zhong hua To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Cc: n5xmt@xxx.net> Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 7:44 AM Subject: Re: ask for help >Dear David, > Thank you very much. Now I can view the Gerber files. But I >can't find one tools to revise them. Could you do me one more favor? > > Regards, > zhu zhong hua > >David A. Cooley wrote: > >> At 04:00 PM 4/19/99 +0800, you wrote: >> >Hi,Dear sir >> > I have downloaded fiel efi332v0_4final-pcb.zip from >> >ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/pub/efi332/hardware. I unzipped the >> >file and got several Gerber files. But I can't open and use it by >> >Protel. Which tool was used to build such files? And how can I open >> >> >them and use it for myself? By the way,the hardware schematic are >> all >> >in postscript file format. Who have pcb files for them? So I can >> use >> >them using protel eda tool directly and need not to redraw them >> again. >> >> You don't need Protel or any PCB software to view/print gerber files. >> Search the net for GCPreview. It allows you to load Gerber files and >> display/print them. >> =========================================================== >> David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net >> Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 >> Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they >> didn't?! >> =========================================================== > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:16:11 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have always tried something I have friends who like to experiment, and are total "gearheads", whereas I am one in name only, and I happen to like bizarre projects that are over my head :) > your experiments on intercooling using radiator fluid? Well, what Dr. Plecan suggested, since I'm building a stump puller, towing vehicle, hauler, its much different than a mid-engine sports car (my other really slow going project), therefore other considerations come into play (Bruce, feel free to step in here and correct anything I quote you on ). His idea was to connect the radiator output (cooler coolant) to a "Y", and send most of it off to the engine, and a smaller portion to the intercooled intake I made, thus keeping an approximate intercooler temp (inside the manifold) at about 100-110 degrees. This means your intake charge temperature will always be above this temperature, unless you drive in the artic :) The idea is to go for consistancy, rather than ultra-low intake charge temps. The intake charge temp can be 200-300 degrees post turbo due to the compression, and heat from the turbo housing (mostly compressing the air of course), so its still a significant drop. And if you have a decent cooling system in working order, maintaining the 100-110 degree coolant temp leaving the radiator is not that difficult to do... most cars do this all the time, which is why they have a radiator fan that turns on and off, etc, etc, etc. So from a tuning standpoint, once the engine warms up, air charge temperature is more constant than with any other type if intercooler system, though maybe not as low as one would think is ideal. Bruce led me to believe (or I interpreted) that the differential between the intake charge and the intercooler temp is very important. And trying it, I found Bruce's suggestion, or theory, is in fact a good one. I didn't test this with turbochargers, as I haven't fabricated anything for them as of yet, however I did introduce 200 degree heated air into the intake plenum and the intercooler did drop the temperature 50-60 degrees. This is uncompressed air of course, i.e. no turbos. I can't wait to see the results with turbos, as I imagine the drop might be greater. I don't understand fluid dynamics enough to really say for sure. But a constant post-turbo air temperature, or at least a smaller temp range, would make tuning a turbocharged EFI motor easier. > octane though, I get detonation about 6 psi. I'd prefer not to pay the One of the things you can do/try, worked for me on the Buick V6 motor, was to ceramic coat the piston tops up to the first ring groove, as well as the combustion chambers. All you need is a toaster oven, "Techline" from summit racing or equivilant, and you can coat your pistons. The heads of course being larger, require something bigger than a toaster oven. Techline works very well, and you can increase your c/r and/or your boost pressure with the product - it keeps all the heat in the combustion chamber which during the exhaust stroke, blows out. Also, there is little chance of hot spots forming on pointed areas or sharp angles inside the combustion chamber. I also found that radiusing things makes a difference as well. Round evering that you can, and move the pistons higher in the bore to compensate for the material you remove. Of course that is more dollars, to have custom pistons made, however for my Buick engine, custom pistons were going to be purchased anyway. > You say you sourced your IC water at the outlet of the radiator. How did > you hook up the return? In order for water to flow through the IC, the > back into the lower radiator hose, preferably as close to the water pump > as possible. Even then though, the pressure difference between the inlet I tried using the heater core lines, but of course this is post engine, so it would heat the intake air, and tapping the bottom radiator hose partially (two "Y"' facing each other) resulted in no flow at all, because the plenum intercooler is mounted at the top of the engine. I didn't want to run the entire coolant stream through the intercooler, because its a trans/oil cooler that i brazed inside, so the piping for fluid flow is much less than the engine can withstand. The final version was a "Y" at both radiator inlet/outlet ports, with a 120V pump on the cold side pumping up the hose to the intercooler, to a peterson 3 gallon swirl tank, then back into the radiator directly via another "Y". I don't know if this is ideal or not, but it did work at least in a basic sense. The next step is to figure out how to remove the 120V pump, and use either an externally mounted belt driven pump, or preferably, the water pump. The 120V pump is acceptable for testing 'cuz the engine's not in the truck at the moment, its on a stand. > cooled. Is it not hot enough, or not in quantity enough (since it's being > mixed with cooled fluid from the radiator) for the engine to really notice? I dunno :) I went from the radiator through the system back to the radiator. > More complex? yes. But still much less so than a dedicated water circuit. > No pump and no resevoir tank. Fangling a seperate tank and resivoir tank is actually not that big of a deal. Make or buy a metal box of approximately the size you figure out to be appropriate, mount a sailboat sump pump (metal one) inside. Its a bottom feeding pump so it has one hose outlet, and that's it. Attach that to your air to water intercooler in front of your vehicle, then to the intake plenum intercooler, then feed that into the top of the tank. Think about it as a giant fish tank filter. And sailboat sump pumps are not that expensive.... 40-50 bucks and they run on 12V of course. > kind of solenoid valve or something to block flow to the IC unless you're > under boost? If I keep this type of system, I plan to "just live with it", because this is not a race vehicle, and the air temp consistancy is worth something in this particular case. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:35:00 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea I've tried 4 different brands here in NC... Chevron, Shell, Texaco and Amoco... All are bone white even with a VERY rich (950mv) WOT cut. >> Isn't this the basics Bruce (NO flame) >> On unleaded you can't read color (other than red , way over rich ,way lean >,oil >> , and other engine failures ) > >Red/pink, mangenese additive-change brands. >Can't read color or too white check for alky content of fuel (test >tube+eyedropper) >If plug burns reflecting either of the above, change brands > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:44:48 -0300 From: "Ord Millar" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea This is probably an often asked question, but here we go: If I have an efi system using and air mass meter, and I can build myself a table of injected volume / pulse width (by flow bench or other means), then isn't it possible to calculate A/F pretty closely? It might not be instantaneous, but over the span of a half dozen or so intake events wouldn't the average come out pretty close? - -----Original Message----- From: CEIJR@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 2:29 PM Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >Another $.02 >Assuming that changes in pulse duration result in linear changes in fuel >delivery are OK for rough initial setup. As noted in prior posts, all sorts >of other variables come into play. Unfortunately, in addition to VE >differences, etc., the fuel flow is not exactly tied to pulse width, due to >the variation in percentage of time spent opening and closing. So, it is a >rough estimate for initial setup, but not good enough for tuning. > > Charlie Iliff > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:04:33 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea - ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Cooley To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 2:35 PM Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea Try one step cooler plug. Texaco is "usually" one of the better ones. Ya done any alky testing?. Bruce > I've tried 4 different brands here in NC... Chevron, Shell, Texaco and > Amoco... All are bone white even with a VERY rich (950mv) WOT cut. > > > >> Isn't this the basics Bruce (NO flame) > >> On unleaded you can't read color (other than red , way over rich ,way > lean > >,oil > >> , and other engine failures ) > > > >Red/pink, mangenese additive-change brands. > >Can't read color or too white check for alky content of fuel (test > >tube+eyedropper) > >If plug burns reflecting either of the above, change brands > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:20:58 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea > >Try one step cooler plug. Texaco is "usually" one of the better ones. >Ya done any alky testing?. Nope... Afraid to drink the stuff! ;-) how do I go about testing for alcohol? Also need to find out what a colder plug... Mine uses the AC 41-601 (never seen that designation except in my car... used to R42TS etc...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:38:24 -0500 From: Daniel Ciobota Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. I missed the beginning of this thread, but Frederic's intercooler project caught my eye. I did a similar project last year along the same lines, but the results were a bit disappointing. here's what I did: My engine at the time was a supercharged 5.0l mustang motor, putting out 390rwhp with 7psi boost at the throttle. I was running a buick boost retard at the time, and I wanted to run max timing on pump gas. The only way to do that was to cool down the incoming charge (205deg) down to about 110-120. There are water/air intercoolers for those motors, but they cost $1000+. I wanted something cheap. The system I put together was made of the following: One transmission oil cooler (24x6x1"), cut in half lengthwise, making it a 24x3x1" One transmission oil cooler, same as above but not cut. One RV water supply pump (40gph, 9psi static pressure, I think). It was something like $70 at the rv supply place. One windshield washer tank, modified to accept 3/8" hose. 3/8 hose. The way I set it up was this. I inserted the cut cooler into the intake plenum (a cobra intake) by removing the 3" plug off one side of the plenum, and welding a plug on one end of the cooler, with lines running through. I aligned the cooler so the air had to go through the cooler to get to the runners. The pump would pump water from the other cooler (the exhanger), through the plenum cooler and back into the water tank. On race day, the pump would be reversed and the water tank be filled with ice water for max cooling. I took the setup to a flow bench and did before/after flows with the plenum cooler. Then, I ran a temp test with the cooler not running and the cooler running ice water (35deg). With an incoming air at 120deg, the outgoing air was a mere 5 deg cooler! The water temp hardly changed. This was on an upper intake flowing 273cfm on the flow bench. Soo, my take on the trans cooler idea was that it was not nearly enough, at least not for that setup. Albeit Frederic's setup has a cooler at least 4 times the volume probably, I think it's the exposed surface area that counts. I've looked at Vortech water/air intercooler, and it has a much larger surface area that even the largest trans coolers. Fred, are you going to do some numbers testing on that beast? I'd like to know what kind of temp drop you're getting at what flow... maybe I gave up too soon, but my results were pretty discouraging. Btw, I still have the water pump, the tank and the coolers if someone wants to play with this some more... Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:38:50 EDT From: FHPSTANG1@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 2:59:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tc75918@xxx.com writes: << Oh, and finally. Assume you're cruising a long stretch of freeway where you're not hardly ever in boost. The intake temp will likely be much cooler than the 100 - 110 degree radiator outlet temp so your intercooler becomes an interheater. >> Hmmmm, On long stretches, wouldn't you benefit from the hot air? I would think that the added heat would give you some extra MPG. Just a thought... John Miller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:45:52 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. There is nothing wrong with an interheater during part throttle. It would likely improve economy by improving atomization of the fuel. You could call it a regenerator and it would sound high tech. While you're at it, heat the fuel to 150 deg F or so. Gary Derian big snip > Oh, and finally. Assume you're cruising a long stretch of freeway where > you're not hardly ever in boost. The intake temp will likely be much cooler > than the 100 - 110 degree radiator outlet temp so your intercooler becomes > an interheater. Do you just plan on living with this or do you use some > kind of solenoid valve or something to block flow to the IC unless you're > under boost? > > thanks > > --Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:01:09 EDT From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 10:40:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ryddler@xxx.com writes: << I am in desperate need of an intercooler. An air/air unit won't work for me. An air/freon unit (using a A/C evaporator) sounds quite slick, but I don't know enough about A/C systems yet to know how well this would work. An air/water unit is the best solution, but has the complexity of a 2nd heat exchanger, pump, coolant tank, etc. I had thought (briefly) about using radiator fluid instead but dismissed it without much thought (afterall, radiator fluid is hot right?). >> Wouldn't it be a bad idea to use coolant to cool your intercooler, even if it's temp is less than that of the charge air? The last thing you want to do is heat up the ic to any degree, so I think it'd be more benefitial to run an air-air unit, and try to either situate it somewhere it can receive plenty of flowing air (front of car, or under it with a scoop), or you can build a ram-air type fixture for it. I can understand how this coolant-cooled ic setup may work (marginally) as long as your coolant temps are lower than your intake charge temps, but even when the coolant is at the 110degrees or so that someone mentioned, wouldn't running cool air to the ic be better than surrounding it's fins with 110+degrees of liquid? On this subject, I've been toying with the idea of cooling intake air using chilled methanol...and threw together some sketches here: http://members.xoom.com/VanAble/Crx/ic.gif This first one is for an inline-type ic that doesn't use a typical core to impede air flow. The "fins" are perforated metal disks welded to the intake tube. The whole works is enclosed by a larger cylinder welded shut with end caps (this is very similar in design to a straight-flow muffler). There'll be a fill cap and drain valve, of course...and you could use something other than methanol. The other idea is for a whole intake manifold that can be seen here: http://members.xoom.com/VanAble/Crx/intake.gif Here, the intake plenum, and a section of fuel rail is surrounded by an enclosure filled with methanol. Bear in mind these ideas are for a strictly, drag race-only car. But can you guys see these things working or.....?? Van ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:05:02 EDT From: A70Duster@xxx.com Subject: Re: Mustang inner-cooler Thought about running a refrigerant through the heat exchanger. Put an expansion valve before the heat exchanger and pump in liquid refrigerant. Phase change happens in the heat exchanger and hopefully a lot of cooling. You also need a recovery system for the vapor refrigerant. just a thought..... P.S. This system works with accumulators, not the A/C pump. The A/C pump could be used to "charge" the high side accumulator. See ya, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:09:11 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea Alky testing GM used to sell the neatest little test kit for this. Graduated test tube, think it was 0-15 ml (?). Neoprene turkey baster type eye dropper. Add 1ml of water. Add 10ml of fuel Shake without spilling (for the engineers in the group). Let the water settle back out.. If you now have 3ml of water then the fuel was 20% alky. Bruce > >Try one step cooler plug. Texaco is "usually" one of the better ones. > >Ya done any alky testing?. > Nope... Afraid to drink the stuff! ;-) > how do I go about testing for alcohol? > Also need to find out what a colder plug... Mine uses the AC 41-601 (never > seen that designation except in my car... used to R42TS etc...) ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #234 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".