DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, April 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 235 In this issue: Measuring injector duration. Re: Mustang inner-cooler Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Measuring injector duration. Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Measuring injector duration. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Mustang inner-cooler Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea New? linear O2 sensor Re: 6A <>6AL Re: Emulator Come on guys See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:30:56 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Measuring injector duration. I want to mod a Supra twin turbo.It's a Jap import,to the UK here,and as such,has some subtle differences from the US/UK model,so I have to move carefully.I don't want it to run weak... How can I best measure how close the injectors are getting to their maximum duty cycle,please? How can I best keep a watchful eye,in real usage,of the mixture strength? Please bear with newbie questions,I am not at all familiar with modifying road car engines with OE injection systems on them.Using a dedicated aftermarket mappable ECU on race engines suddenly seems a lot easier than playing with existing "unadjustable" systems. BTW the Jap import Supra twin turbos use MAP sensor,not an airflow metering unit. Thanks. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:40:27 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Mustang inner-cooler > Thought about running a refrigerant through the heat exchanger. Put an We discussed this previously on this list for a short while, about 5-6 months ago, as well as on the GNTTYPE list almost 8-12 months ago... you might find searching the archives on both lists informative to the advantages and disadvantages of such a system. Different people claimed different results. This list's archives can be found off the main page at www.efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, and the gnttype archives can be found at www.gnttype.org. Search for "freezer" to find all of my posts, and "+A/C +intercool" for everyone elses posts. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:48:44 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Brutal snippage Using a rough calc, I come up with you as having a 230d discharge temp., and with coolant at 100 (intake side) that would have been a 130d difference rather than 95 as you tested. Also, in running Fred's numbers going up to 10 pushes the discharge temp up to about 250.. Also, remember two different applications. Try you mustang with a trailer (pulling it, not on it), and 2-3 minutes at 2/3 throttle in 2nd gear like on a long step grade, and you would have luved any help........ Try looking at a farm tractor where they run 90% throttle for 6-7 hours atta time. Bruce > The only way to do that was > to cool down the incoming charge (205deg) down to about 110-120. There are > water/air intercoolers for those motors, but they cost $1000+. I wanted > something cheap. > > I took the setup to a flow bench and did before/after flows with the plenum > cooler. Then, I ran a temp test with the cooler not running and the cooler > running ice water (35deg). With an incoming air at 120deg, the outgoing air was > a mere 5 deg cooler! The water temp hardly changed. This was on an upper > intake flowing 273cfm on the flow bench. > > Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:02:25 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > make tuning a turbocharged EFI motor easier. > > > octane though, I get detonation about 6 psi. I'd prefer not to pay the > > One of the things you can do/try, worked for me on the Buick V6 motor, was to > ceramic coat the piston tops up to the first ring groove, as well as the > combustion chambers. All you need is a toaster oven, "Techline" from summit If I ever end up re-building the engine I will be doing this as well. It's my only vehicle so I can't really tear it down to this extent just yet. I did use the Techline coatings inside and out on the exhaust manifold and turbine scroll housing though to help keep underhood temps down. I do believe that these are very effective coatings. BTW, I pulled the turbo back off after about 1000 miles for an inspection and the coating is very solid with no hint of peeling or flaking inside or out. > can withstand. The final version was a "Y" at both radiator inlet/outlet ports, > with a 120V pump on the cold side pumping up the hose to the intercooler, to a > peterson 3 gallon swirl tank, then back into the radiator directly via another What's a swirl tank? If it just "swirls" the water, why? > "Y". I don't know if this is ideal or not, but it did work at least in a basic > sense. The next step is to figure out how to remove the 120V pump, and use > either an externally mounted belt driven pump, or preferably, the water pump. On my engine, the output of the water pump is internal to the block. Is this pretty typical? Is there any way of tapping either the pump housing or the block close to the pump to get a high pressure source of water (that hopefully hasn't been heated much yet by the block)? > Fangling a seperate tank and resivoir tank is actually not that big of a deal. > Make or buy a metal box of approximately the size you figure out to be > appropriate, mount a sailboat sump pump (metal one) inside. Its a bottom > feeding pump so it has one hose outlet, and that's it. Attach that to your air > to water intercooler in front of your vehicle, then to the intake plenum > intercooler, then feed that into the top of the tank. Think about it as a giant > fish tank filter. And sailboat sump pumps are not that expensive.... 40-50 > bucks and they run on 12V of course. Do you happen to have a 'net source for the pumps? This is what I had last resigned myself to until I read of your radiator fluid tests. I'm thinking now that I might try this metheod and use a secondary heat exchanger (oil cooler?) after it draws water from the radiator to give an additional amount of cooling before going to the IC. After doing this and adding a pump, it's not all that much simpler than a seperate water circuit with a tank, but in my application even foregoing the tank makes things simpler. I don't have much engine bay area to work with and I don't want anything underneath unless it's armored (more work). As a bonus, I'b be able to pull a hose and pump the radiator empty instead of using the next-to-worthless drain valve that somehow manages to direct the coolant over the entire front frame and suspension before it makes it to the ground (in about 12 different spots). - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:11:53 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Measuring injector duration. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Wilson To: DIY_EFI Mailing List Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 4:30 PM Subject: Measuring injector duration. Quick/easy way is just hooking a Dwell meter, across the injector, reads 90d dwell, and just convert to % duty cycle. Bruce > I want to mod a Supra twin turbo.It's a Jap import,to the UK here,and as > such,has some subtle differences from the US/UK model,so I have to move > carefully.I don't want it to run weak... > > How can I best measure how close the injectors are getting to their > maximum duty cycle,please? > > How can I best keep a watchful eye,in real usage,of the mixture strength? > > Please bear with newbie questions,I am not at all familiar with modifying > road car engines with OE injection systems on them.Using a dedicated > aftermarket mappable ECU on race engines suddenly seems a lot easier than > playing with existing "unadjustable" systems. > > BTW the Jap import Supra twin turbos use MAP sensor,not an airflow > metering unit. > > Thanks. > > > -- > Best Regards, > Chris Wilson. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:24:01 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ord Millar To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea If you look at the Injector Flow Bench it mentions using a piezio elec device for "looking" at the injectors response. So using a dual trace scope would give ya the answers about actual on times, for "on" time. In the past I've posted some fuel tables, hoping to shed some light on this so you could use a generic table, and at least have a starting place. Depending on injector, at anything less than 2 msec the injector maybe rather erratic (saturated style injector), so be careful at looking in this area. If your looking at kinda averaging to get it right, I'd visit the past mention of driving the injectors at 106% of crank speed. Bruce > This is probably an often asked question, but here we go: > If I have an efi system using and air mass meter, and I can build myself a > table of injected volume / pulse width (by flow bench or other means), then > isn't it possible to calculate A/F pretty closely? It might not be > instantaneous, but over the span of a half dozen or so intake events > wouldn't the average come out pretty close? > > -----Original Message----- > From: CEIJR@xxx.com> > Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea > >Another $.02 > >Assuming that changes in pulse duration result in linear changes in fuel > >delivery are OK for rough initial setup. As noted in prior posts, all sorts > >of other variables come into play. Unfortunately, in addition to VE > >differences, etc., the fuel flow is not exactly tied to pulse width, due to > >the variation in percentage of time spent opening and closing. So, it is a > >rough estimate for initial setup, but not good enough for tuning. > > Charlie Iliff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:26:46 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. >> And finally, if all this does work well, then couldn't you get similar >> results as a seperate air/water system by running the inlet water for the >> IC through a secondary exchanger like a tranny or oil cooler before reaching >> the IC? Since it's a relatively small amount of water, this could > >Sounds like a job for the heater core if one was so inclined. It's free >and already installed.... > >-greg And if you had an AC box for the truck--which mounted the AC evaporator upstream of the heater core in the same airstream--and ran the AC--- you would be getting chilled air over the heater core, which would have the IC coolant in it--all you would need is one electric pump to circulate the IC coolant----and a way to dump the exhaust from the heater core overboard instead of into the cab in the summer--- Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:27:26 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > Hmmmm, On long stretches, wouldn't you benefit from the hot air? I would > think that the added heat would give you some extra MPG. That would be good news, for the truck will be towing a race car and hour and a half every weekend next year (if I finish the truck, then start and finish the car), so extra MPG would be desireable. Right now, with a tired 318, I'm lucky to hit 7 mpg. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:34:21 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Re: Measuring injector duration. In article <007c01be8b72$6ad921a0$44633acf@nacelp>, Bruce Plecan apparently wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Wilson > To: DIY_EFI Mailing List > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 4:30 PM > Subject: Measuring injector duration. > > Quick/easy way is just hooking a Dwell meter, across the injector, reads 90d > dwell, and just convert to % duty cycle. > Bruce Duhhh! :-) As easy as that? Thanks,Bruce.With it having sequential injection,am i still safe just measuring at any *one* injector,or should I measure several? Cheers.I was expecting to have to buy 12 volt `scopes and things - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:26:09 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > my eye. I did a similar project last year along the same lines, but the results > were a bit disappointing. here's what I did: Depends what your goal is... for my truck, consistant air temp makes modifying EFI setups much easier - less wide swinging variables to play with. I agree with Bruce on this one. Though let me make some turbocharging efforts and test it in the real world, in the truck, with a payload. > something cheap. Cheap is good inmy book as well. > One windshield washer tank, modified to accept 3/8" hose. > 3/8 hose. I had done something similar with the Buick V6 twin-turbo project, we used an igloo cooler with a plastic sailboat sump pump glued in the bottom, and it worked very well with ice water. We found the best water to air intercooling (using the same plenum mounted intercooler setup) was by connecting a garden hose to the well pump. A constant source of 40 degree water helped big time - though impractical on the street of course. We also made a sad attempt at using a large freezer that was being thrown out, connecting it to the intercooler and using the condenser, evaporator, and a tank of "sucked out" freon left over from cars that have been retrofitted or fixed over the years. Decent results. The well water from the hose actually was at least as effective, since the outlet of the water was not recycled, and hosed to a floor mounted drain. You might want to search the archives... I've posted these experiments before, say about 4-6 months ago I'd guess. Don't have my copies anymore as this is a new mail server, and the old one sorta bit the dust. Again. > and back into the water tank. On race day, the pump would be reversed and the > water tank be filled with ice water for max cooling. I actually built a plenum for the Buick V6, using the cad diagrams in the "Buick Power Source" book from GM to make the head mating surface plates, with 15 or 16" runners I think... been a while. Its in the garage somewhere. Anyway, the plenum was a large triangle bottom half, and a rectangular top half, with a transmission cooler brazed inside, manifold and cooler both made of aluminum. Airflow comes in from the turbos, heads downward through the intercooler, into the runners. Then, we ran ice water, refrigerant, well water, and other things through the intercooler to see what worked best, then attempted to figure out a realistic method of doing this on the road. See, when the engine is on a dyno stand, you have access to well water as well as 120V :) The water Igloo with a sump pump worked fairly well. The more piping and water you have, the longer it takes to heat it. We also put the freezer coils in the igloo with even better results - used the freezer to remove the heat energy from the water returned to the igloo. > Soo, my take on the trans cooler idea was that it was not nearly enough, at > least not for that setup. Albeit Frederic's setup has a cooler at least 4 times > the volume probably, I think it's the exposed surface area that counts. I've You need to make the transmission cooler thicker. I found that the thicker the core, the better the cooling is. Prolly due to more surface area. The cooler I used was from an aging race car, and after flushing it out, worked just fine. It was 2" thick on the Buick, and the one brazed into the Dodge plenum is 3" thick. Thick is good :) > that even the largest trans coolers. Fred, are you going to do some numbers > testing on that beast? I'd like to know what kind of temp drop you're getting Well, dyno testing is a possibility, however this weekend is my last weekend of free dyno time, then I have to be shoved in with everyone else who spends cash, and the intake still isn't quite done, nor are the turbos finished - need new bearings, and I'm still waiting for them, and have to clock one of them around to mirror the other one, and fabricate the feed pipes to the plenum. Among other things. Anyway, while not necessarily immediate, I can produce dyno results the same way I did with the Buick V6 twin-turbo project. Hopefully, without losing the crank, bottom end, pistons, rods, and the left side of the block. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:46:01 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > solid with no hint of peeling or flaking inside or out. Its good stuff. Dave Williams turned me onto the product, and I coated my fiance's tempo, my Lincoln, the Buick motor, and coated the 383 stroker as well. > What's a swirl tank? If it just "swirls" the water, why? A swirl tank is nothing more than a round resevior, though they can be in other shapes I guess. The inlet to the tank is at the top almost in line with the circumference of the tank, thus the fluid (water, oil, tranny fluid etc) spins around the tank, allowing the air to escape from the fluid, and rise upwards, while the fluid flows down the sides of the tank. That's all a swirl tank is. The top of the tank is bled off (air) to the radiator or other highest point in the system. For oil, its usually bled to a valve cover if I'm not mistaken. I had an oil one lying around, so I soaked it in parts cleaner and removed any buildup (minimal) and used it simply because it was available. You can use any kinda tank you want, and just have to make a pump setup to match/fit. > this pretty typical? Is there any way of tapping either the pump housing My dodge seems to be the same way. One option is to tap the pump, thread, and shove in an AN fitting. I haven't dared to do this yet. I'm not sure which way the coolant goes in the pump yet. This is new territory for me. > or the block close to the pump to get a high pressure source of water (that > hopefully hasn't been heated much yet by the block)? Its key to tap the water BEFORE the engine heats it. Otherwise you have an intake air heater 100% of the time. Coolant as you know hits 200-220 degrees depending on your thermostat. > Do you happen to have a 'net source for the pumps? This is what I had last I went to a local marine store 10 years ago, bought a 12V plastic sump pump and attached it to a small hose and a battery on a Boy Scout canoe trip years ago. This discouraged younger scouts from trying to splash me. Short range, but pretty much constant flow. I simply recycled the parts to a more interesting application. Find a marine store and pick one up. Though I live on the shoreline, your region might not have that many of them depending on the sailing ability of said region. > much engine bay area to work with and I don't want anything underneath unless > it's armored (more work). That's one of the advantages of my truck - even with a 528 stroker (if I had one) I could still stand under the hood. Though if I were to mount a tank in my pickup, I'd not put it under the hood, but instead underneath in front of, or behind, the side mounted gas tank, so its not in direct contact with really hot engine heat. Airflow under the hood absolutely sucks, though the excessive heat might be the horribly running 270K 318 that's in there right now, and not a dysfunction of the truck design. Who knows. > the coolant over the entire front frame and suspension before it makes it > to the ground (in about 12 different spots). You have a 1975 Dodge D200 too? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:54:13 -0400 From: Paul Tholey Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. That goes double for me. I feel the engine coolant will be much safer too. I heard my pop mention one time that Mustard Gas would be sent out the tailpipe of a car if someone uses R12 in conjunction with an intercooler and the R12 leaked into the combustion chamber. Pretty scarry, if you ask me. Your turbo throws some metal, your intercooler cracks and bam! No one will be seen in your rearview. Paul Tholey >Frederic, > >It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have always tried something >that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you expand a little more on >your experiments on intercooling using radiator fluid? > >I am in desperate need of an intercooler. An air/air unit won't work for >me. An air/freon unit (using a A/C evaporator) sounds quite slick, but I >don't know enough about A/C systems yet to know how well this would work. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:04:37 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Mustang inner-cooler >Thought about running a refrigerant through the heat exchanger. Put an >expansion valve before the heat exchanger and pump in liquid refrigerant. >Phase change happens in the heat exchanger and hopefully a lot of cooling. >You also need a recovery system for the vapor refrigerant. > >just a thought..... > >P.S. This system works with accumulators, not the A/C pump. The A/C pump >could be used to "charge" the high side accumulator. Got a system design about roughed out--uses an ammonia / water absorbtion cycle to chill the intercooler, also to chill the inlet air to the turbo. You will need 2 to 3 tons of chilling effect per 100 HP--it varies, depending on how much boost. You could keep the cooling requirements down to maybe 1.8 tons per 100 HP if you PRE intercool using engine coolant in a separate coil upstream of the refrigerated IC coil. You will need to have about .25 sq. ft. of IC coil face area per 100 HP of engine output. It will need to be 4 rows thick, and have 12 fins per inch, of the mildly corrugated style. Because the refrigerant is ammonia, you would need SS tubes (ammonia eats copper, and carbon steel does not seem like a good thing in an inlet manifold) The tubes should be 1/2" OD, spaced at 1-1/4" oc. in each row. A suction temp of 20 F would get the manifold air temp down to about 55 or 60F after the coil. Air side pressure drop across a refrigerated IC coil of this design would only amount to about 1.5 or 2" of water column. The cycle can be driven by heat recovered by a heat recovery muffler in the exhaust system. You will need a diaphram type solution pump for pumping the strong solution into the generator. This pump can be powered hydraulically, either by a separate pump or by the power steering return. You will DEFINITELY need a condenser/absorber cooler coil with a lot of good, cool air flow, and this will need to have SS tubes in it as well. Got some sizing data here as well. You will need a thermally compensated evaporator pressure reg. valve to prevent frosting the evaporator coil under light loads. You will need a float drain valve to regulate return flow of weak solution from the generator to the absorber. You will need a thermal expansion valve to regulate flow of liquid ammonia into the evaporator. You will need a holdback valve downstream of the condenser to maintain a minimum pressure in the generator. You are talking about around 1/4 HP of hydraulic pumping load per 100 HP of engine output. There is PLENTY of heat available in the exhaust downstream of the turbine to drive the cycle. Chilling the air going IN to the turbo will have a significant effect on system efficiency on warmer days, and WILL help to reduce turbine back-pressure on the engine. If all this does not sound too heavy, or too hi-tech for your taste, get me off list, and I will share more details. Regards, Greg > >See ya, > >Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:41:40 EDT From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 99-04-20 14:39:06 EDT, frederic@xxx.com writes: > The next step is to figure out how to remove the 120V pump, and use >either an externally mounted belt driven pump, or preferably, the water pump. >The 120V pump is acceptable for testing 'cuz the engine's not in the truck at >the moment, its on a stand. EZ, Mercedes uses a 12 V booster pump for the heater. It's used when the engine speed is low. Another solution is a 2.6 4 cyl Mitsubishi/Chrysler front wheel drive, Ford Tempo/Taurus FWD 2.3/2.5 4 cyl or a GM 2.5 4 cyl FWD water pump. These pumps are belt driven "self contained" with hose barbs and/or flange mounts. Harold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:53:29 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > That goes double for me. I feel the engine coolant will be much safer >too. I heard my pop mention one time that Mustard Gas would be sent out >the tailpipe of a car if someone uses R12 in conjunction with an >intercooler and the R12 leaked into the combustion chamber. Pretty scarry, >if you ask me. Your turbo throws some metal, your intercooler cracks and >bam! No one will be seen in your rearview. > >Paul Tholey Well--it's Phosgene that results--is that mustard gas?? Hot cast iron is a GOOD catalyst for making it from freon. OR--to make it a plan for when the red flashers come on behind you--build some sort of dash operated coil cutter into the manifold (only foolin', of course!) But your pop was absolutely correct--had not thought of it, but NH3 refrigerant would be WAY safer for this application! Greg > >>Frederic, >> >>It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have always tried something >>that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you expand a little more on >>your experiments on intercooling using radiator fluid? >> >>I am in desperate need of an intercooler. An air/air unit won't work for >>me. An air/freon unit (using a A/C evaporator) sounds quite slick, but I >>don't know enough about A/C systems yet to know how well this would work. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:03:54 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > You say you sourced your IC water at the outlet of the radiator. How did > > you hook up the return? In order for water to flow through the IC, the > > > > > back into the lower radiator hose, preferably as close to the water pump > > as possible. Even then though, the pressure difference between the inlet > > I tried using the heater core lines, but of course this is post engine, so it > would heat the intake air, and tapping the bottom radiator hose partially (two > "Y"' facing each other) resulted in no flow at all, because the plenum > intercooler is mounted at the top of the engine. I didn't want to run the > entire coolant stream through the intercooler, because its a trans/oil cooler > that i brazed inside, so the piping for fluid flow is much less than the engine > can withstand. The final version was a "Y" at both radiator inlet/outlet ports, > with a 120V pump on the cold side pumping up the hose to the intercooler, to a > peterson 3 gallon swirl tank, then back into the radiator directly via another > "Y". I don't know if this is ideal or not, but it did work at least in a basic > sense. The next step is to figure out how to remove the 120V pump, and use > either an externally mounted belt driven pump, or preferably, the water pump. > The 120V pump is acceptable for testing 'cuz the engine's not in the truck at > the moment, its on a stand. > If you're using a trans cooler, is it 3/8" line or smaller? No matter, I am picturing drilling and tapping the outlet of the water pump to feed the cooler, then running the return into the top of the T-stat housing at an angle to form a venturi of sorts. If there's concern about reduced circulation through the block, a plate installed on the back of the pump rotors can increase pump efficiency. You'll lose core value, and each pump would need to be modified similarly. Doesn't the Dodge have an aluminum timing cover? Maybe you could tap into that for a coolant source. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:04:45 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea Oxygenated fuel area? Shannen David A. Cooley wrote: > > I've tried 4 different brands here in NC... Chevron, Shell, Texaco and > Amoco... All are bone white even with a VERY rich (950mv) WOT cut. > > >> Isn't this the basics Bruce (NO flame) > >> On unleaded you can't read color (other than red , way over rich ,way > lean > >,oil > >> , and other engine failures ) > > > >Red/pink, mangenese additive-change brands. > >Can't read color or too white check for alky content of fuel (test > >tube+eyedropper) > >If plug burns reflecting either of the above, change brands > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:06:57 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > >Try one step cooler plug. Texaco is "usually" one of the better ones. > >Ya done any alky testing?. > > Nope... Afraid to drink the stuff! ;-) > > how do I go about testing for alcohol? > > Also need to find out what a colder plug... Mine uses the AC 41-601 (never > seen that designation except in my car... used to R42TS etc...) Too lazy to dig for the spark plug manual. Think the platinums are all 601, and 41 is heat range. Come to think of it, it's not in the plug manual anyway. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:18:35 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. - ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Yep, sonny sure is, oughta been around durn WW1 Grumpy > Well--it's Phosgene that results--is that mustard gas?? Hot cast iron is a > GOOD catalyst for making it from freon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:23:02 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Would you happen to have a part number or application?. Doc > EZ, Mercedes uses a 12 V booster pump for the heater. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:31:31 +1200 From: "Tony Bryant" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > > Well--it's Phosgene that results--is that mustard gas?? Hot cast iron is a > GOOD catalyst for making it from freon. > > OR--to make it a plan for when the red flashers come on behind you--build > some sort of dash operated coil cutter into the manifold (only foolin', of > course!) > > But your pop was absolutely correct--had not thought of it, but NH3 > refrigerant would be WAY safer for this application! > What wrong with a propane/isobutane mix? At worst It'll make your engine run a little rich, it cools as well as R12, and is practically free. Don't worry about the flammability, all refrigerant oils are flammable anyway. see aircondition.com 's message board for more info.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:36:38 -0500 From: Steve Gorkowski Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea where ,where i need some . Live in Wisconsin Steve Shannen Durphey wrote: > Oxygenated fuel area? > Shannen > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > I've tried 4 different brands here in NC... Chevron, Shell, Texaco and > > Amoco... All are bone white even with a VERY rich (950mv) WOT cut. > > > > >> Isn't this the basics Bruce (NO flame) > > >> On unleaded you can't read color (other than red , way over rich ,way > > lean > > >,oil > > >> , and other engine failures ) > > > > > >Red/pink, mangenese additive-change brands. > > >Can't read color or too white check for alky content of fuel (test > > >tube+eyedropper) > > >If plug burns reflecting either of the above, change brands > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:50:01 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea > >The idea is to bias the wide band O2 normally so that it reads the >range of AFR that you want. Then put a pic in front that inputs the >wideband O2 sensor voltage,/other info and converts that via a table >(non linear table to make the wb act like a normal O2 sensor). > >I guess the other idea is to adjust the bias to read the AFR you want, >and then let the computer run in closed loop mode (even at wot), just >with the modified AFR ratio required for max power. > > Roger Yes. At least two manufacturers that I know of, currently have retail products which will "transform" a WB EGO signal (LSM-11 or UEGO) to that of an OEM style zirconia signal, in conjunction with a user definable switch-point set-point feature. Say you want to force an ECM/PCM into "thinking" it is perturbating around stoich, while in fact it is perturbating around 11:1 A/F..........no problem. Look for URL's associated with Auburn Performance Equipment, and Powertrain Electronics. Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:13:08 EDT From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: New? linear O2 sensor This was found in the April 99 Import Service ( a auto repair trade mag), page 10 top right column. ################################################################# Lexus RX300 ( car like SUV) and Toyota ES300 3.0 V6 California only cars The most significant service-related change is the linear oxygen sensorin the exhaust manifold, or "air-fuel sensor" as Toyota calles it, a design that's also been used by Honda. Although it looks like a conventional four wire sensor, it doesn't toggle within the one volt range. Instead it produces a voltage that goes up in a straight line as the mixture becomes lean, within the 2.2-4.2 range. ######################################################## It goes on to say Toyota techs can't get a useable reading with a volt meter, the proper way is to read the data from the ODB II scan tool. The photo and blurb state/show a 4 wire plug. Could this be something new? I haven't been following the UEGO/Wide band thread much. From what I remember, the Honda/Horbia/NTK stuff used a 8 wire system. Harold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:50:28 -0400 From: "Andrew F. Gunnesch" Subject: Re: 6A <>6AL Yes, they do. MSD cuts spark, while the ECM (or in Tom's case PCM) cuts fuel. Now everybody talks about how cutting fuel is bad, but look at it this way: if fuel is completely cut, then how can a lean condition result? The "lean" condition that the O2 sensor reads is due to the fact that a cylinder fills with air and no fuel, compresses, expands and then that same air gets dumped directly into the exhaust. If you have a system that cuts spark, however, you'll get unburnt fuel dumping into your exhaust manifolds. Keep your foot in it longer and you'll burn up your cats (if you are a green hot rodder like me). Pro: I've heard that the ignition limiters don't feel so rough when you hit it. I've heard people say that the PCM limiter feels like you are slamming into a wall. Now, if my interpretation of what goes on here is not correct, please please feel free to correct me. On Apr 20, 4:22pm, Daniel R. Burns wrote: > Not that I want to be picky but don't they operate in different ways. > Isn't the MSD better way of rev limiting, or does it matter ? > > Danny > > Andrew F. Gunnesch wrote: > > > > Go for the 6A and program the PCM limiter to where you want it. > > > > >From the third gen classifieds > > > > Name: > > carlx30@xxx.com > > Phone: > > Address: > > clinton, md, usa > > Item: > > Ok everyone, it?s garage sale time and all of the following MUST go. > > Prices are suggestions and no > > reasonable offer will be refused. First I have a MSD 6a ignition > > amplifier NEW in box never > > installed or even taken out of the plastic, I paid $150 for it I?ll ask > > $110 OBO. Second I have a set > > of Richmond 3.73 gears for sale. They?re for a series 2 carrier gm 10 > > bolt and have less than 2000 > > miles on them. The gears were professionally installed and have perfect > > wear pattern. I?m asking > > $100 obo for them. Lastly I have a set of injectors from an 87 > > corvette. The vette had 89k miles on > > it and ran fine, they have NOT been cleaned and were only removed > > because a supercharger was > > going to be installed. $100obo I also have a three piece rear spioler > > from an 87 IROC with third > > brake light. > > > > Posted: > > 23-Mar-99 > > > > and the board at camaroz28.com is full of 'em! > > > > On Apr 20, 4:21pm, Tom Bettiker wrote: > > > Subject: 6A <>6AL > > > > > > > > > I'm going to get a MSD 6a tomorrow unless someone out there gives me a > > > good reason to get the 6al with the revlimiter. Remember there is one in > > > the PCM of the 94LT1 as it is. > > > > > > Tom > > >-- End of excerpt from Tom Bettiker > >-- End of excerpt from Daniel R. Burns ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:17:45 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Emulator Come on guys At 05:41 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >David: > >OK, I found it. It's this one right? > >http://www.emi.net/~mpitts/PROM-EMU.ZIP > >It looks like I could handle that, given a pcb. I need to emulate >a 2732, I think, so I will need an adapter for 24 pins. My friend >has a prom burner and does his own board projects, so he should >be able to help me get it working. Should be able to use the burner >in read mode to see if the emulator is working correctly, right? > >How many people have responded? Are you ordering soon? Am I too >late for this round? Hi Pat, This isn't the one... We're using one off the serial port... It's found at: http://www.paulandmark.u-net.com/electron/Computer/ select the link to eprom emulator. I'm giving anyone that wants in on the beta until friday of this week to respond. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #235 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".