DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, April 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 236 In this issue: Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Ford EEC Bins Bosch Flow Ratings Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Rev limiter Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? O2 Disclaimer Propane blower Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Emulator beta cutoff date. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Re: Propane blower LUCAS P DIGITAL See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:23:08 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea At 07:04 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >Oxygenated fuel area? Nope... Winston-Salem, NC.. No MTBE or oxygenated labels on the pumps at all. Not even during winter. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:24:04 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea At 07:06 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >Too lazy to dig for the spark plug manual. Think the platinums are >all 601, and 41 is heat range. >Come to think of it, it's not in the plug manual anyway. Hmm.. These aren't plats... Standard $0.99 AC delco plugs. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:39:39 -0500 From: Daniel Ciobota Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. AL8001@xxx.com wrote: > In a message dated 99-04-20 14:39:06 EDT, frederic@xxx.com > writes: > > > The next step is to figure out how to remove the 120V pump, and use > >either an externally mounted belt driven pump, or preferably, the > water pump. > >The 120V pump is acceptable for testing 'cuz the engine's not in the > truck at > >the moment, its on a stand. > > EZ, Mercedes uses a 12 V booster pump for the heater. It's used when > the > engine speed is low. Another solution is a 2.6 4 cyl > Mitsubishi/Chrysler > front wheel drive, Ford Tempo/Taurus FWD 2.3/2.5 4 cyl or a GM 2.5 4 > cyl FWD > water pump. > > These pumps are belt driven "self contained" with hose barbs and/or > flange > mounts. > > Harold Folks, I took apart one of the mercedes pumps (off a 300sd), and they're pretty much the same as the 12v 40gph rv pump I bought for my project. Last I bought one of those mercedes pumps, it was about $150 for a used one. The rv pump was about $70. If you want more volume (is approx 1 gallon/minute not enough?), buy and plumb one of those summit electric water pumps, they're like $150-200. They flow 20-30 gallons/minute! Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:57:41 -0700 From: Ross Corrigan Subject: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? A fella I"m working w/ has built many different hotrods w/ conventional parts and strong basics. He's got access to at least one or more 6-71 (he thinks they're 6-71) diesel blower's off Jimmy diesel (crane powerplant's etc) setups. He'd love to hear any ideers/feedback on whether anyone has ever converted one to run on a gas engine (particularly Chevy sb/bb but any gas setups are of interest) or even thought/looked at doing it. I"m not familiar w/ blowers at all but when he says he could get used working ones for $100 my ears perked up;^) Any and all info welcome, I"ll print off all feedback for him (he doesn't speak email). thanks Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:00:01 -0500 From: Steve Gorkowski Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea find something that makes good power they outlaw. Thanks anyway Steve David A. Cooley wrote: > At 07:04 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >Oxygenated fuel area? > > Nope... Winston-Salem, NC.. > No MTBE or oxygenated labels on the pumps at all. Not even during winter. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:33:34 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? At 06:57 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >A fella I"m working w/ has built many different hotrods w/ conventional >parts and strong basics. He's got access to at least one or more 6-71 (he >thinks they're 6-71) diesel blower's off Jimmy diesel (crane powerplant's >etc) setups. He'd love to hear any ideers/feedback on whether anyone has >ever converted one to run on a gas engine (particularly Chevy sb/bb but any >gas setups are of interest) or even thought/looked at doing it. I"m not >familiar w/ blowers at all but when he says he could get used working ones >for $100 my ears perked up;^) Hi Ross, I had a friend look into this back in California... he got 5 blowers for $300.00... figured he'd make a good one out of all of em. Wound up junking them... The clearances are WAY too loose to build pressure in a gas engine... and they were within spec for the Diesels. Found out that machine work to convert one would be almost $1000! Wound up junking the lot for $50.00 =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:40:52 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Ford EEC Bins As some of you may or may not know, I replaced the pathetic excuse for a server this past weekend, and am starting to restore "stuff" including web and FTP files to the new server. Today's addition brings the EEC Binary Images back online, so if you want this stuff, its located at: ftp://www.xephic.dynip.com/eecbin/ Thanks to Jerry Wills who provided the text index for all the images (calibration files), which I will html-ize and shove on the website once I restore it from tape. We're getting there! Frederic ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:43:28 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Bosch Flow Ratings Someone sent this to me and suggested I pass it along to respective names, without his email address. Here goes, hope its useful! All flow rates are quoted at 3 bar (300kpa) delta p unless othorwise stated. BOSCH NO. FLOW SOURCE 0 280 150 001 265 cm3/min 0 280 150 002 265 cm3/min 0 280 150 003 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 009 265 cm3/min 0 280 155 009 346 cm3/min Saab Turbo 0 280 150 015 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 024 380 cm3/min Volvo B30E 0 280 150 026 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 036 380 cm3/min MB 4.5l 0 280 150 041 480 cm3/min MB 6.9l V8 / Cadillac 0 280 150 043 380 cm3/min BMW 0 280 150 100 185 cm3/min 0 280 150 121 178 cm3/min B 280 410 144 434 cm3/min Bosch R-SPORT 0 280 150 200 300 cm3/min BMW 0 280 150 201 236 cm3/min 0 280 150 203 185 cm3/min 0 280 150 208 133 cm3/min 0 280 150 209 176 cm3/min Volvo B200-B230 0 280 150 211 146 cm3/min 0 280 150 335 300 cm3/min Volvo B23FT/ B230FT 0 280 150 355 389 cm3/min Volvo B23ET/ B230ET 0 280 150 400 437 cm3/min Ford 4.5l 0 280 150 401 437 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 402 338 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 403 503 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 614 189 cm3/min 0 280 150 704 170 cm3/min 0 280 150 706 214 cm3/min 250kPa 0 180 150 712 214 cm3/min 250kPa Saab Turbo 2.3l 0 280 150 715 149 cm3/min 0 280 150 716 134 cm3/min 0 280 150 762 214 cm3/min Volvo B230F 0 280 150 802 284 cm3/min Volvo B200 turbo, Renault J7R turbo 0 280 150 804 337 cm3/min Volvo B230FT (940T) Peugeot 505T 0 180 150 811 298 cm3/min 3.5kPa Porsche Turbo 944 0 280 150 814 384 cm3/min 0 280 150 834 397 cm3/min 0 280 150 835 397 cm3/min Chrysler 0 180 150 951 346 cm3/min Porsche Turbo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:46:44 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 07:06 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >Too lazy to dig for the spark plug manual. Think the platinums are > >all 601, and 41 is heat range. > >Come to think of it, it's not in the plug manual anyway. > > Hmm.. These aren't plats... Standard $0.99 AC delco plugs. Then I need to get a manual that has the new number systems. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:10:20 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Some good examples of factory liquid/air intercoolers are 1.) Syclone Typhoon 2. Lotus Espirit Turbo 3. Toy MR2 turbo They have totally separate cooling systems, with a chiller intercooler and pump, all tied together with heater hose. The Syclone folks use a shurflow RV fresh water pump to replace the wimpy bosch unit.. It moves twice as much water and corrodes less. Mike V ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:20:00 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 7:24:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nacelp@xxx.net writes: > > > EZ, Mercedes uses a 12 V booster pump for the heater. > uh, did you say Mercede$ ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:34:34 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? >A fella I"m working w/ has built many different hotrods w/ conventional >parts and strong basics. He's got access to at least one or more 6-71 (he >thinks they're 6-71) diesel blower's off Jimmy diesel (crane powerplant's >etc) setups. He'd love to hear any ideers/feedback on whether anyone has >ever converted one to run on a gas engine (particularly Chevy sb/bb but any >gas setups are of interest) or even thought/looked at doing it. I"m not >familiar w/ blowers at all but when he says he could get used working ones >for $100 my ears perked up;^) > >Any and all info welcome, I"ll print off all feedback for him (he doesn't >speak email). > >thanks > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada He needs to get hold of a catalogue from Blower Drive Service in (where else) southern Kalifornia. It has a chart of what flows to expect from different Jimmy blowers. Regards, Greg > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR >Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the >straights > >mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 >http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml >http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a >Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:48:07 -0600 From: cwagner@xxx.net Subject: Rev limiter Does anyone know where the rev limiter is located on the 7747 chips? Also, what about all the information relating to the torque converter clutch and air bypass valve for the air injection duiring warmup. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:37:09 -0500 From: Daniel Ciobota Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > Some good examples of factory liquid/air intercoolers are > 1.) Syclone Typhoon > 2. Lotus Espirit Turbo > 3. Toy MR2 turbo > They have totally separate cooling systems, with a chiller > intercooler and pump, all tied together with heater hose. > The Syclone folks use a shurflow RV fresh water pump That's the pump I bought, btw... flows 40gph at 9psi static pressure. Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:16:10 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Hi, Ross. The blowers I've seen in stock configuration are driven off the back of the engine. Years ago I had an oppurtunity to get a blower from a 6-71. I was advised to skip it and buy one that was already set up for front drive on a gasoline engine. I have an article from a 58 issue of Hot Rod about installing a 6-71 on an Olds V8, driving it from the rear of the engine if you're interested. You may have trouble locating the parts suppliers, though. : ) Shannen Ross Corrigan wrote: > > A fella I"m working w/ has built many different hotrods w/ conventional > parts and strong basics. He's got access to at least one or more 6-71 (he > thinks they're 6-71) diesel blower's off Jimmy diesel (crane powerplant's > etc) setups. He'd love to hear any ideers/feedback on whether anyone has > ever converted one to run on a gas engine (particularly Chevy sb/bb but any > gas setups are of interest) or even thought/looked at doing it. I"m not > familiar w/ blowers at all but when he says he could get used working ones > for $100 my ears perked up;^) > > Any and all info welcome, I"ll print off all feedback for him (he doesn't > speak email). > > thanks > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR > Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the > straights > > mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 > http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml > http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a > Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:41:31 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: O2 Disclaimer Ok folks, I have begun working on an adequate disclaimer for my O2 sensor display. If anyone would care to take a look at http://regnirps.com/AutoSense/autosense.htm I would again appreciate any feedback. I guessed at a couple of ideas about applications like the part you will see about pulling uphill. I'm sure someone can let me know where I have gone wrong. Also any ideas on jargon and terminology that might fit the application better. I do appreciate all the answers I got back on the first round. Cheers, Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:03:49 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Propane blower A friend just did a propane conversion on a 350 for a Canadian and put a blower on as well. Propane is 50 cents a gallon in B.C. and 105 octane equivalent. They think it will still look brand new inside after 30,000 miles. Anybody have any experience with this? I might try it myself. Its not exactly EFI, but could produce some interesting ideas in control. Hmmm, how about a high pressure liquid propane injector? Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:39:13 -0700 From: Ross Corrigan Subject: Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? thanks! It's always easier to put an idea to rest if you know a valid reason it won't work ahead of time;^) At 10:33 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 06:57 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >>A fella I"m working w/ has built many different hotrods w/ conventional >>parts and strong basics. He's got access to at least one or more 6-71 (he >>thinks they're 6-71) diesel blower's off Jimmy diesel (crane powerplant's >>etc) setups. He'd love to hear any ideers/feedback on whether anyone has >>ever converted one to run on a gas engine (particularly Chevy sb/bb but any >>gas setups are of interest) or even thought/looked at doing it. I"m not >>familiar w/ blowers at all but when he says he could get used working ones >>for $100 my ears perked up;^) > >Hi Ross, >I had a friend look into this back in California... he got 5 blowers for >$300.00... figured he'd make a good one out of all of em. >Wound up junking them... The clearances are WAY too loose to build pressure >in a gas engine... and they were within spec for the Diesels. >Found out that machine work to convert one would be almost $1000! >Wound up junking the lot for $50.00 >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! >=========================================================== > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:11:41 EDT From: FHPSTANG1@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pxtx@xxx.com writes: << That goes double for me. I feel the engine coolant will be much safer too. I heard my pop mention one time that Mustard Gas would be sent out the tailpipe of a car if someone uses R12 in conjunction with an intercooler and the R12 leaked into the combustion chamber. >> This is true. When R-12 burns, it turns Deadly. But, What about the new R-134A ??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:24:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Emulator beta cutoff date. rr says: - -> Dave, Yes? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:23:08 EDT From: FHPSTANG1@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 9:37:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tony.Bryant@xxx.nz writes: << What wrong with a propane/isobutane mix? At worst It'll make your engine run a little rich, it cools as well as R12, and is practically free. Don't worry about the flammability, all refrigerant oils are flammable anyway. >> Yeah, they may be "Flammable", but wouldn't the propane mixture be a bit more like "Explosive"??? I'm just wondering, I have heard "Stories" about these systems literally Blowing themselves apart. Or.... is that all B.S.??? John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:31:44 GMT From: "The Punisher" Subject: Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? . He's got access to at least one or more 6-71 (he >thinks they're 6-71) diesel blower's off Jimmy diesel (crane powerplant's >etc) setups. He'd love to hear any ideers/feedback on whether anyone has >ever converted one to run on a gas engine (particularly Chevy sb/bb but any >gas setups are of interest) or even thought/looked at doing it. I"m not >familiar w/ blowers at all but when he says he could get used working ones >for $100 my ears perked up;^) > >Any and all info welcome, I"ll print off all feedback for him (he doesn't >speak email). > >thanks > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > Using an actual 6-71 diesel blower is something that is dying at a rapid rate for modern blown engines. The main problem will be getting the drive, the blower case and rotors are easy to come by. You need the end plates, carb adaptor top (probably could make youre own efi top), belt tensioner assembly, upper and lower pulleys, intake manifold, and a few other goodies. You will probably want to rebuild the blower too. If the rotor gap between the rotors and case is to sloppy you could end up with a blower that wont make very good boost. Keep youre camshaft lobe seperation angle reletivly wide, around 113- 114 degrees. try not to get any tighter than 112 degrees or you are going to be pumping boost right out the exhaust. And last but not least keep the compression low, anything over 8.5:1 and youre getting an effective compression ratio thats through the roof with much boost at all. If youre not interested in much over 450-475 hp, then you might be cheaper and happier with a little weiand mini blower. I seem to remember the price being just a little over 1000 last time I looked. Hope that helps. The Punisher _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:41:06 GMT From: "The Punisher" Subject: Re: Jimmy 6-71 blower on a gas engine?? Before you buy anything, get this book: Street Supercharging By Pat Ganahl S-A Design isbn 0-931472-17-2 This will tell you just about evrything you need to know about Roots and Centrifugal Blowers. Has some useful charts and lots of pictures! The Punisher _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:51:09 GMT From: "The Punisher" Subject: Re: Propane blower >A friend just did a propane conversion on a 350 for a Canadian and put a >blower on as well. Propane is 50 cents a gallon in B.C. and 105 octane >equivalent. They think it will still look brand new inside after 30,000 >miles. Anybody have any experience with this? I might try it myself. Its not >exactly EFI, but could produce some interesting ideas in control. Hmmm, how >about a high pressure liquid propane injector? > >Charlie Springer Had a Dodge Pickup with a 440 on propane. Engine went nearly 300,000 miles then the valve seats just finaly fell apart. The engine was quite clean inside for someting with over a quarter of a million miles. Be aware that propane will run just okay with stock low compression pistons. But it realy needs alot more compression for good power, and it will NOT have the same power you would expect from an equaly built gas engine. But proper design and tuning will help alot! The idea of a blown propane engine sounds very interesting, as well as an electronic injection system. Perhaps a precision barrel valve (like on a bug catcher system) on a high speed servo motor controlled by the computer. The Punisher _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:16:39 +0300 From: "Tom Bennett" Subject: LUCAS P DIGITAL Hi all, I am a newbie to the list so I apologize if this has been asked before. Has anyone on the list played with this system? I would like to hear from you, specifically if it was attached to a Jaguar xjs v12. regards Tom ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #236 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".