DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, April 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 237 In this issue: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. test Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Haltec Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: blowers test Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower Isobutane Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. LUCAS P DIGITAL Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:59:09 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Hey, something I can help with. Yes phosgene and mustard gas are the same, both blistering agents formed when a reactive halide (like Iodine, clorine or flourine gas) comes into close proximity of a good catalyst like copper or brass. The old halide fire extinguishers would form phosgene if they came into contact with something brass, like say a door knob or fauset. Nice thing to worry about when you're running out of a burning building. Funny how the only inorganic chemistry lectures I remember are the ones that taught me how to make weapons or octane boosters. back to the lab, jw On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > Well--it's Phosgene that results--is that mustard gas?? Hot cast iron is a > GOOD catalyst for making it from freon. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:49:33 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Propane blower Way back in the old days, I converted a BMW 2002 to turbo and propane, using a propane carb. Had 7:1 compression and 25 psi boost. That thing would FLY! Propane is an excellent fuel as you noted. The small loss of power is easily made up with the extra boost it allows. A NA propane engine will lose 10% due to the volume taken up by the gaseous fuel. With boost, only the mechanical strength of the engine is the limit. Well not really, it can still detonate but its still good stuff. Gary Derian > A friend just did a propane conversion on a 350 for a Canadian and put a > blower on as well. Propane is 50 cents a gallon in B.C. and 105 octane > equivalent. They think it will still look brand new inside after 30,000 > miles. Anybody have any experience with this? I might try it myself. Its not > exactly EFI, but could produce some interesting ideas in control. Hmmm, how > about a high pressure liquid propane injector? > > Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:44:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > Hello all > > I have been reading this thread and would say that > an air to water intercooler system is the way to go. > The way to design the system is to aim for > overcooling of the coolant by using an intercooler > designed for marine use and a pump to assist the > flow through a radiator, you do not need high flow > rates. When you are on boost it will take time to > raise the volume of water from ambient temperature > towards boost temp, and then as soon as you are off > boost the system is cooled back down again. It all > depends upon the vehicle and how it's > being used. > > Where I am currently working, on engine testing we > use this type of intercooler because it is easier to > control boost temperatures more accuratly for > calibration , but with closed system we can achieve a > 85% reduction in boost temp. What you need to check > is the pressure differential across the intercooler, > we use " BOWMAN INTERCOOLERS " made by Bowman > engineering here in the UK in Birmingham. > > hope this helps Roy > Spectric's Ltd - --- Daniel Ciobota wrote: > I missed the beginning of this thread, but > Frederic's intercooler project caught > my eye. I did a similar project last year along the > same lines, but the results > were a bit disappointing. here's what I did: > > My engine at the time was a supercharged 5.0l > mustang motor, putting out 390rwhp > with 7psi boost at the throttle. I was running a > buick boost retard at the > time, and I wanted to run max timing on pump gas. > The only way to do that was > to cool down the incoming charge (205deg) down to > about 110-120. There are > water/air intercoolers for those motors, but they > cost $1000+. I wanted > something cheap. > > The system I put together was made of the following: > One transmission oil cooler (24x6x1"), cut in half > lengthwise, making it a > 24x3x1" > One transmission oil cooler, same as above but not > cut. > One RV water supply pump (40gph, 9psi static > pressure, I think). It was > something like $70 at the rv supply place. > One windshield washer tank, modified to accept 3/8" > hose. > 3/8 hose. > > The way I set it up was this. I inserted the cut > cooler into the intake plenum > (a cobra intake) by removing the 3" plug off one > side of the plenum, and welding > a plug on one end of the cooler, with lines running > through. I aligned the > cooler so the air had to go through the cooler to > get to the runners. The pump > would pump water from the other cooler (the > exhanger), through the plenum cooler > and back into the water tank. On race day, the pump > would be reversed and the > water tank be filled with ice water for max cooling. > > I took the setup to a flow bench and did > before/after flows with the plenum > cooler. Then, I ran a temp test with the cooler not > running and the cooler > running ice water (35deg). With an incoming air at > 120deg, the outgoing air was > a mere 5 deg cooler! The water temp hardly changed. > This was on an upper > intake flowing 273cfm on the flow bench. > > Soo, my take on the trans cooler idea was that it > was not nearly enough, at > least not for that setup. Albeit Frederic's setup > has a cooler at least 4 times > the volume probably, I think it's the exposed > surface area that counts. I've > looked at Vortech water/air intercooler, and it has > a much larger surface area > that even the largest trans coolers. Fred, are you > going to do some numbers > testing on that beast? I'd like to know what kind > of temp drop you're getting > at what flow... maybe I gave up too soon, but my > results were pretty > discouraging. > > Btw, I still have the water pump, the tank and the > coolers if someone wants to > play with this some more... > > Daniel > > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:58:36 -0400 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Propane blower On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 Regnirps@xxx.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:03:49 EDT > From: Regnirps@xxx.com > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Propane blower > > A friend just did a propane conversion on a 350 for a Canadian and put a > blower on as well. Propane is 50 cents a gallon in B.C. and 105 octane > equivalent. They think it will still look brand new inside after 30,000 > miles. Anybody have any experience with this? I might try it myself. Its not > exactly EFI, but could produce some interesting ideas in control. Hmmm, how > about a high pressure liquid propane injector? years ago ( ~ 14 yrs) I drove taxi and they were 318 factory propane. they were great the heater put out more heat then the gasoline versions of the car and the life span was much higher and service requirements much lowwer. I did the propane installers course and the inspecter course when I was a mechanic, Ive got the docs somewhere at home and will scan then upload when I find them > > Charlie Springer > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:14:42 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > If you're using a trans cooler, is it 3/8" line or smaller? No Mine had 1/2" lines. I might be an oil cooler. Ideally, I'd like to find something with 1" lines. > Doesn't the Dodge have an aluminum timing cover? Maybe you could tap > into that for a coolant source. It might be... it seemed pretty light and cleaned up easily. I'll check it when I head home for lunch, that's a good idea :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:16:06 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > And if you had an AC box for the truck--which mounted the AC evaporator I don't even have dash vents, no less air conditioning. Yet :) I have the complete system with wiring harness and digital climate control panel and modules, which eventually will be fangled in along with the rest of the 88 caddy stuff. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much higher does the water temp in the engine run? I would think a person could use a resivoir with water in it, lines to the intercooler, and an electric water pump. Why not use the A/C idea, but just stick it in the water resivoir? I dunno. Andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Hi do not use the vehicles engine cooling radiator, the water temperature is to high, and runs constant at around 110 + degrees C. Use seperate radiator, large bore pipework and a pump to circulate, no high flow rates. The use of a reservoir if you are not concerned with the weight implications would also help but not essential. What you do need is a small expansion tank that works by accepting the overflow when the coolant expands as it is heated up, then as the system cools down again it draws it back into the system. This means the system can be full of coolant with no air. You could also use electric fans on the radiator to further reduce the temperature. Roy Spectric's Ltd - --- Squash wrote: > With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much > higher > does the water temp in the engine run? > > I would think a person could use a resivoir with > water > in it, lines to the intercooler, and an electric > water > pump. Why not use the A/C idea, but just stick it > in > the water resivoir? > > I dunno. > > Andy > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @xxx.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:43:08 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much higher > does the water temp in the engine run? The water temp leaving the radiator was about 10 degrees hotter. Not sure if we did something wrong or mismeasured it, however that's negligable. > pump. Why not use the A/C idea, but just stick it in > the water resivoir? We did this and it worked awesome, and which is how we got a Buick V6 to run as much boost as we did. However, we didn't use automotive AC, we used a large meat freezer that we re-fangled into the mix. An automotive A/C I doubt would achieve the same level of cooling as this meat freezer. The compressor was the size of a small toyota engine. True, its 60 years old :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:51:51 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: test ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:53:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. 10 degrees is not much! How much boost do u plan on having with your 431? Somewhat off the subject, but if water injection is used, is it pre or post turbo? Just curious. Thanks, Andy - --- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much > higher > > does the water temp in the engine run? > > The water temp leaving the radiator was about 10 > degrees hotter. Not > sure if we did something wrong or mismeasured it, > however that's > negligable. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:55:11 -0700 From: "Rick" Subject: Haltec Hi has anybody had any experiance with the haltec E6A??? I am looking for something with a built in ignition system For a turbocharged motorcycle Thanks Turbo Rick 350HP Turbo GSXR1100 Street bike Web Site http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/ Southern California Timing Association 1998 Fastest Bike of the year EL Mirage Land speed Record holder 204.626 MPH E-mail gsxr1100@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:04:47 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. >> If you're using a trans cooler, is it 3/8" line or smaller? No > >Mine had 1/2" lines. I might be an oil cooler. Ideally, I'd like to find >something >with 1" lines. No, you do not. 1/2" OD tubes in the cooler is about right--what you want is one where the tubes are connected to circulate in parallel, by headers, rather than in series. Regards, Greg > >> Doesn't the Dodge have an aluminum timing cover? Maybe you could tap >> into that for a coolant source. > >It might be... it seemed pretty light and cleaned up easily. I'll check >it when I >head home for lunch, that's a good idea :) > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport CT 06606 > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:47:25 GMT From: charlesmorris@xxx.com (Charles) Subject: Re: blowers On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:00:01 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:33:34 -0400 >From: "David A. Cooley" >I had a friend look into this back in California... he got 5 blowers for >$300.00... figured he'd make a good one out of all of em. >Wound up junking them... The clearances are WAY too loose to build pressure >in a gas engine... and they were within spec for the Diesels. >Found out that machine work to convert one would be almost $1000! >Wound up junking the lot for $50.00 I was about to do the same thing in the mid-1980's, and discovered the same thing your friend did (before buying an old bus blower though). Then I went to BDS and paid $2000 (price complete in '85 with manifold, belt, drive hub and pulleys). Price to go the junk route was nearly as high with no guarantees or experience... As usual, "Speed costs money, son. How fast do you want to go"? ;) - -Charles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:51:51 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: test ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:15:59 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Subject: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Frederic wrote: > > It was a leftover from my twin-turbo Buick V6 project. Anyway, inside > the plenum is a 2" thick transmission or oil cooler, that I sized the > inside dimensions of my plenum around, as once welded, I wanted an > air-tight fit. All pressurized air from the turbos will blast into the > upper plenum, go through the intercooler, then into the lower plenum, >... > > What the intercooler will be attached to hasn't been decided yet. I did > some preliminary experiments on a Buick V6 engine using radiator coolant > as the "intercooling fluid", and while I didn't document this even > remotely well, I will state that this actually works. Kudo's to Bruce > "Grumpy" Plecan who drilled the idea into my head. The idea is to tap > the radiator fluid pre-engine post-radiator since the coolant is about > 100-110 degrees at this point, and the fresh air post-turbo is closer to > 200 degrees. While not the absolute best design, Bruce was right in > saying that the intercooler temperature would be more consistant, > therefore providing consistant performance, and is MUCH easier to plumb > than a Peterson coolant tank, a box of ice, a 12V marine sump pump, or > any other creative solution you come up with. > Frederic, It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have always tried something that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you expand a little more on your experiments on intercooling using radiator fluid? I am in desperate need of an intercooler. An air/air unit won't work for me. An air/freon unit (using a A/C evaporator) sounds quite slick, but I don't know enough about A/C systems yet to know how well this would work. An air/water unit is the best solution, but has the complexity of a 2nd heat exchanger, pump, coolant tank, etc. I had thought (briefly) about using radiator fluid instead but dismissed it without much thought (afterall, radiator fluid is hot right?). I'm not necessarilly looking for hp gains here, I just want to remove heat to avoid detonation. I have a turbo'd 4 cyl that peaks about 9 psi. On 87 octane though, I get detonation about 6 psi. I'd prefer not to pay the ransome, er, cost that is, of premium so I'm using water injection right now. Even that's marginal though and I rarely allow it to go over 6 or 7 psi but it's hard to do and I can never floor it. You say you sourced your IC water at the outlet of the radiator. How did you hook up the return? In order for water to flow through the IC, the return would have to be at the low pressure area at the suction of the water pump, which is basically the bottom of the radiator. The only way I can see this working is if the source of the IC water was the bottom of the radiator tank opposite the lower rad hose, and the outlet of the IC dumped back into the lower radiator hose, preferably as close to the water pump as possible. Even then though, the pressure difference between the inlet and outlet water for the IC would seem to be pretty low to have significant flow. I would have thought you'd need a booster pump as well to feed the IC. Is this not the case? What about the return water from the IC? This is now going to be hot again, and it's dumping right into the water pump inlet without first being cooled. Is it not hot enough, or not in quantity enough (since it's being mixed with cooled fluid from the radiator) for the engine to really notice? And finally, if all this does work well, then couldn't you get similar results as a seperate air/water system by running the inlet water for the IC through a secondary exchanger like a tranny or oil cooler before reaching the IC? Since it's a relatively small amount of water, this could substantially knock down the 100 - 110 water temp before reaching the IC. More complex? yes. But still much less so than a dedicated water circuit. No pump and no resevoir tank. Oh, and finally. Assume you're cruising a long stretch of freeway where you're not hardly ever in boost. The intake temp will likely be much cooler than the 100 - 110 degree radiator outlet temp so your intercooler becomes an interheater. Do you just plan on living with this or do you use some kind of solenoid valve or something to block flow to the IC unless you're under boost? thanks - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Hi do not use the vehicles engine cooling radiator, the water temperature is to high, and runs constant at around 110 + degrees C. Use seperate radiator, large bore pipework and a pump to circulate, no high flow rates. The use of a reservoir if you are not concerned with the weight implications would also help but not essential. What you do need is a small expansion tank that works by accepting the overflow when the coolant expands as it is heated up, then as the system cools down again it draws it back into the system. This means the system can be full of coolant with no air. You could also use electric fans on the radiator to further reduce the temperature. Roy Spectric's Ltd - --- Squash wrote: > With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much > higher > does the water temp in the engine run? > > I would think a person could use a resivoir with > water > in it, lines to the intercooler, and an electric > water > pump. Why not use the A/C idea, but just stick it > in > the water resivoir? > > I dunno. > > Andy > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @xxx.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:43:08 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much higher > does the water temp in the engine run? The water temp leaving the radiator was about 10 degrees hotter. Not sure if we did something wrong or mismeasured it, however that's negligable. > pump. Why not use the A/C idea, but just stick it in > the water resivoir? We did this and it worked awesome, and which is how we got a Buick V6 to run as much boost as we did. However, we didn't use automotive AC, we used a large meat freezer that we re-fangled into the mix. An automotive A/C I doubt would achieve the same level of cooling as this meat freezer. The compressor was the size of a small toyota engine. True, its 60 years old :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much higher does the water temp in the engine run? I would think a person could use a resivoir with water in it, lines to the intercooler, and an electric water pump. Why not use the A/C idea, but just stick it in the water resivoir? I dunno. Andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:15:50 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Re: Propane blower punisher454@xxx.com (The Punisher) wrote: > Had a Dodge Pickup with a 440 on propane. Engine went nearly 300,000 > miles then the valve seats just finaly fell apart. The engine was >quite clean inside for someting with over a quarter of a million > miles. Be aware that propane will run just okay with stock low > compression pistons. But it realy needs alot more compression for > good power, and it will NOT have the same power you would expect from > an equaly built gas engine. But proper design and tuning will help > alot! My old 396 has 11/1 compression ratio. How would that be? I think they called these a Rat motor. From a '69 Chevellle, solid lifters, all that. Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:16:06 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > And if you had an AC box for the truck--which mounted the AC evaporator I don't even have dash vents, no less air conditioning. Yet :) I have the complete system with wiring harness and digital climate control panel and modules, which eventually will be fangled in along with the rest of the 88 caddy stuff. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:58:36 -0400 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Propane blower On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 Regnirps@xxx.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:03:49 EDT > From: Regnirps@xxx.com > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Propane blower > > A friend just did a propane conversion on a 350 for a Canadian and put a > blower on as well. Propane is 50 cents a gallon in B.C. and 105 octane > equivalent. They think it will still look brand new inside after 30,000 > miles. Anybody have any experience with this? I might try it myself. Its not > exactly EFI, but could produce some interesting ideas in control. Hmmm, how > about a high pressure liquid propane injector? years ago ( ~ 14 yrs) I drove taxi and they were 318 factory propane. they were great the heater put out more heat then the gasoline versions of the car and the life span was much higher and service requirements much lowwer. I did the propane installers course and the inspecter course when I was a mechanic, Ive got the docs somewhere at home and will scan then upload when I find them > > Charlie Springer > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:14:42 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > If you're using a trans cooler, is it 3/8" line or smaller? No Mine had 1/2" lines. I might be an oil cooler. Ideally, I'd like to find something with 1" lines. > Doesn't the Dodge have an aluminum timing cover? Maybe you could tap > into that for a coolant source. It might be... it seemed pretty light and cleaned up easily. I'll check it when I head home for lunch, that's a good idea :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:44:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > Hello all > > I have been reading this thread and would say that > an air to water intercooler system is the way to go. > The way to design the system is to aim for > overcooling of the coolant by using an intercooler > designed for marine use and a pump to assist the > flow through a radiator, you do not need high flow > rates. When you are on boost it will take time to > raise the volume of water from ambient temperature > towards boost temp, and then as soon as you are off > boost the system is cooled back down again. It all > depends upon the vehicle and how it's > being used. > > Where I am currently working, on engine testing we > use this type of intercooler because it is easier to > control boost temperatures more accuratly for > calibration , but with closed system we can achieve a > 85% reduction in boost temp. What you need to check > is the pressure differential across the intercooler, > we use " BOWMAN INTERCOOLERS " made by Bowman > engineering here in the UK in Birmingham. > > hope this helps Roy > Spectric's Ltd - --- Daniel Ciobota wrote: > I missed the beginning of this thread, but > Frederic's intercooler project caught > my eye. I did a similar project last year along the > same lines, but the results > were a bit disappointing. here's what I did: > > My engine at the time was a supercharged 5.0l > mustang motor, putting out 390rwhp > with 7psi boost at the throttle. I was running a > buick boost retard at the > time, and I wanted to run max timing on pump gas. > The only way to do that was > to cool down the incoming charge (205deg) down to > about 110-120. There are > water/air intercoolers for those motors, but they > cost $1000+. I wanted > something cheap. > > The system I put together was made of the following: > One transmission oil cooler (24x6x1"), cut in half > lengthwise, making it a > 24x3x1" > One transmission oil cooler, same as above but not > cut. > One RV water supply pump (40gph, 9psi static > pressure, I think). It was > something like $70 at the rv supply place. > One windshield washer tank, modified to accept 3/8" > hose. > 3/8 hose. > > The way I set it up was this. I inserted the cut > cooler into the intake plenum > (a cobra intake) by removing the 3" plug off one > side of the plenum, and welding > a plug on one end of the cooler, with lines running > through. I aligned the > cooler so the air had to go through the cooler to > get to the runners. The pump > would pump water from the other cooler (the > exhanger), through the plenum cooler > and back into the water tank. On race day, the pump > would be reversed and the > water tank be filled with ice water for max cooling. > > I took the setup to a flow bench and did > before/after flows with the plenum > cooler. Then, I ran a temp test with the cooler not > running and the cooler > running ice water (35deg). With an incoming air at > 120deg, the outgoing air was > a mere 5 deg cooler! The water temp hardly changed. > This was on an upper > intake flowing 273cfm on the flow bench. > > Soo, my take on the trans cooler idea was that it > was not nearly enough, at > least not for that setup. Albeit Frederic's setup > has a cooler at least 4 times > the volume probably, I think it's the exposed > surface area that counts. I've > looked at Vortech water/air intercooler, and it has > a much larger surface area > that even the largest trans coolers. Fred, are you > going to do some numbers > testing on that beast? I'd like to know what kind > of temp drop you're getting > at what flow... maybe I gave up too soon, but my > results were pretty > discouraging. > > Btw, I still have the water pump, the tank and the > coolers if someone wants to > play with this some more... > > Daniel > > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:49:33 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Propane blower Way back in the old days, I converted a BMW 2002 to turbo and propane, using a propane carb. Had 7:1 compression and 25 psi boost. That thing would FLY! Propane is an excellent fuel as you noted. The small loss of power is easily made up with the extra boost it allows. A NA propane engine will lose 10% due to the volume taken up by the gaseous fuel. With boost, only the mechanical strength of the engine is the limit. Well not really, it can still detonate but its still good stuff. Gary Derian > A friend just did a propane conversion on a 350 for a Canadian and put a > blower on as well. Propane is 50 cents a gallon in B.C. and 105 octane > equivalent. They think it will still look brand new inside after 30,000 > miles. Anybody have any experience with this? I might try it myself. Its not > exactly EFI, but could produce some interesting ideas in control. Hmmm, how > about a high pressure liquid propane injector? > > Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:22:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ciciora Subject: Isobutane I've got a bunch of high altitude camp stove fuel (Isobutate) collecting dust in my garage, if someone want's to try the below. I tink I paid $1 or $3 a can (still have receipt) and you could use one of those 'vampire' freon can adaptors (the kind that pokes a hole in the side) to get it out. Each can is about the size of what use to be a $1 can of freon (the kind all auto parts stores sold). - - Steven Ciciora > But your pop was absolutely correct--had not thought of it, but NH3 > refrigerant would be WAY safer for this application! > What wrong with a propane/isobutane mix? At worst It'll make your engine run a little rich, it cools as well as R12, and is practically free. Don't worry about the flammability, all refrigerant oils are flammable anyway. see aircondition.com 's message board for more info.. - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:34:03 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have always tried something > that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you expand a little more on > your experiments on intercooling using radiator fluid? Is this a server repeat? or a user repeat? This is the first duplicate message I've gotten, and curious as to its origin. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:34:49 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Subject: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Someone sent this to me and suggested I pass it along to respective > names, without his email address. > > Here goes, hope its useful! > Ok, so maybe I can contribute a little bit finally. I went through the agony of looking for injectors a couple months ago. I ended up finding 4 different web sites with info and compilied all the findings into an Excel spreadsheet. Theres a sheet for each of the sources's data, as well as a sheet that gives the source location and a code for them. The main "Composite" sheet then is a collection of all these. Theres I think 4 different manufacturers and about 205 entries. A lot of these are duplicates though cause I list all sources. i.e. the Bosch 0 280 150 400 has 3 entries for instance. It's good to cross check and see if they all agree on the flow rate. Being a spreadsheet, it's very easy to re-sort the list according to maker, flow rate, part number, etc. Then I also made another that lists flow rates from 18 lb/hr through 55 lb/hr injectors from 25 psi to 90 psi. I was getting sick of doing the calcs all the time so I made this as a quick reference. It's based off off a 40 psi baseline pressure, but you can easily change that as well as the units (kPa, Bar, gm/sec, etc.). The URL for them is: http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/efi.htm - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:59:09 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Hey, something I can help with. Yes phosgene and mustard gas are the same, both blistering agents formed when a reactive halide (like Iodine, clorine or flourine gas) comes into close proximity of a good catalyst like copper or brass. The old halide fire extinguishers would form phosgene if they came into contact with something brass, like say a door knob or fauset. Nice thing to worry about when you're running out of a burning building. Funny how the only inorganic chemistry lectures I remember are the ones that taught me how to make weapons or octane boosters. back to the lab, jw On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > Well--it's Phosgene that results--is that mustard gas?? Hot cast iron is a > GOOD catalyst for making it from freon. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:16:39 +0300 From: "Tom Bennett" Subject: LUCAS P DIGITAL Hi all, I am a newbie to the list so I apologize if this has been asked before. Has anyone on the list played with this system? I would like to hear from you, specifically if it was attached to a Jaguar xjs v12. regards Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:57:40 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > 10 degrees is not much! How much boost do u plan on > having with your 431? Yes, the 10 degrees was on an unboosted engine, using a heater to provide "hot air". No more than 10 lbs of boost, and a redline of 4000 RPM. Stock, boring cam, .030 383 using a 440 crank and 440 YJ rods. I got lucky and aquired a set. > Somewhat off the subject, but if water injection is > used, is it pre or post turbo? Just curious. On the Buick V6, I injected the water (20% water, 80% isopropol) right into the intake runners next to the fuel injectors, using a seperate fuel rail and a seperate fuel pump, yada yada. For the truck, I'm hoping not to need this. If I do, I'll be lazy and spray it under the plenum into the carb bore where the plenum mounts. Reminds me, I have to take pictures of the plenum. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:57:40 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Re: Propane blower I can attach a JPEG if anyone wants or a Quicktime if you want to hear it :) How do people feel about attachments on this list? I'll do it from a Mac so, no virus possibilities. Charlie Springer ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #237 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".